James Kuyper wrote:
>
> Valentin Bonnard wrote:
> >
> > kanze@gabi-soft.de wrote:
> ...
> > > Before the ISO standard, the de facto standard for C++ was the ARM.  And
> > > Addison Wesley had a monopoly on it; others could sell C++ books (just
> > > as they can today), but only Addison Wesley could sell the ARM.
> >
> > The question is: does Addison Wesley sell books at a fair price,
> > include those books that are authoritative sources of information
> > (the ARM, Inside Macintosh) ?
> >
> > Clearly ISO doesn't.
>
> That's not clear to me. Could you please clarify the unfairness of $18
> per copy?

I didn't knew that ISO sold the standard at that price.

> Would you care to estimate the number of copies they've sold
> at that price and their expenses?

Expenses:
- cost of the web site (pdf)
- cost of the printing (book)
- administration

> If you can't, how can you be sure it's unfair?

Maybe ISO is just burning bank notes for heating. I don't know and
don't
care. It isn't the problem. The problem is that the price is too high.
Maybe ISO has lots of expenses: that's their problem, not mine. My
problem
is that ISO prices aren't fair.

> I also ask anybody who's got access to the actual figures to post them.
> If it's confidential information, you could indicate the order of
> magnitude, or at least tell us whether Valentin's estimates are
> reasonable.

If they are not: where does all the money go ?

--

Valentin Bonnard

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In article <398F6D08.B36FF94F@wizard.net>, James Kuyper
<kuyper@wizard.net> writes
>I also ask anybody who's got access to the actual figures to post them.
>If it's confidential information, you could indicate the order of
>magnitude, or at least tell us whether Valentin's estimates are
>reasonable.

I believe that the total World sales of the C++ standard are below 4000
and that something like 80% of that total is represented by ANSI's $18
electronic version. I also have reason to believe that this meagre total
is actually very substantially greater than all sales of other ISO
computer language standards over the last 3 years. By my calculation the
money raised by the sales of the electronic version would not even fund
someone to maintain the ANSI website.
Francis Glassborow      Association of C & C++ Users
64 Southfield Rd
Oxford OX4 1PA          +44(0)1865 246490
All opinions are mine and do not represent those of any organisation

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kanze@gabi-soft.de wrote:

> "Trevor L. Jackson, III" <fullmoon@aspi.net> writes:
>
> |>  Dietmar Kuehl wrote:
>
> |>  > In article <39761A34.A7788A87@aspi.net>,
> |>  >   "Trevor L. Jackson, III" <fullmoon@aspi.net> wrote:
> |>  > > But, given there is no alternative source of standard information,
> |>  > > and thus no market, one is forced (by lack of alternative options) to
> |>  > > pay whatever is asked.  The amount isn't the issue.  Being forced is
> |>  > > the issue.
>
> |>  > Except that it isn't true: You can get information eg. on C++ from a
> |>  > wide range of resources, many of them are very well in line with the
> |>  > standards document.

You can only get precise serious information about the core language in
the standard. Given its complexity, no paraphrase is going to replace
it.

(The description of the library in the standard is so bad that, IMO,
a rewriting can easily do better, but that's a different issue.)

> Before the ISO standard, the de facto standard for C++ was the ARM.  And
> Addison Wesley had a monopoly on it; others could sell C++ books (just
> as they can today), but only Addison Wesley could sell the ARM.

The question is: does Addison Wesley sell books at a fair price,
include those books that are authoritative sources of information
(the ARM, Inside Macintosh) ?

Clearly ISO doesn't.

--

Valentin Bonnard

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Valentin Bonnard wrote:
>
> kanze@gabi-soft.de wrote:
...
> > Before the ISO standard, the de facto standard for C++ was the ARM.  And
> > Addison Wesley had a monopoly on it; others could sell C++ books (just
> > as they can today), but only Addison Wesley could sell the ARM.
>
> The question is: does Addison Wesley sell books at a fair price,
> include those books that are authoritative sources of information
> (the ARM, Inside Macintosh) ?
>
> Clearly ISO doesn't.

That's not clear to me. Could you please clarify the unfairness of $18
per copy? Would you care to estimate the number of copies they've sold
at that price and their expenses? If you can't, how can you be sure it's
unfair?

Note: don't say their expenses are "effectively" zero. "effectively
zero" costs can require an arbitrarily large price, if sales are also
"effectively zero", which I believe is the case. Until you've got a
non-zero estimate for both quantities, you can't meaningfully estimate
the cost per copy.

I also ask anybody who's got access to the actual figures to post them.
If it's confidential information, you could indicate the order of
magnitude, or at least tell us whether Valentin's estimates are
reasonable.

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