stephen.clamage@sun.com (Stephen Clamage) wrote in comp.std.c++:

>On Wed,  2 Aug 2000 22:35:09 GMT, Valentin Bonnard
><Bonnard.V@wanadoo.fr> wrote:

>- the C++ standard isn't an art book or even something in color,
>>  printing it shouldn't cost too much
>
>The page count is high, and the volume is low.
>
>Ask a book publisher what they would charge to print 5000 copies of
>book with 800 pages.

On Saturday, I bought a copy of "A Pattern Language" (Alexander) for AUD105
(hardback).

My softcover copy of C++PL3 cost AUD63, and my copy of "The C++ Standard Library"
(Josuttis) cost about the same in hardback (drats; left it on my bedside table
and can't check right now).

I think that illustrates Steve's point a little.

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Stephen Clamage wrote:

> On Wed,  2 Aug 2000 22:35:09 GMT, Valentin Bonnard
> <Bonnard.V@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
>
> >Where do standard bodies spend all this money:
> >
> >- the C++ standard isn't an art book or even something in color,
> >  printing it shouldn't cost too much
>
> The page count is high, and the volume is low.

Why is the volume soo low ? How many C++PL have been sold ?

Of course it's impossible to sell as many C++STD as C++PL,
but at the ISO price only people who need the standard
will buy it.

> Ask a book publisher what they would charge to print 5000 copies of
> book with 800 pages.

I will. But I could just go to a photocopy room next to the university,
and would cost about the fifth of the price billed by ISO. I expect
publishers to have more efective and less costly ways to print books.

How many Internet providers take 18$ in order to download 2MB ?

--

Valentin Bonnard

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On Wed,  2 Aug 2000 22:35:09 GMT, Valentin Bonnard
<Bonnard.V@wanadoo.fr> wrote:


>Where do standard bodies spend all this money:
>
>- the C++ standard isn't an art book or even something in color,
>  printing it shouldn't cost too much

The page count is high, and the volume is low.

Ask a book publisher what they would charge to print 5000 copies of
book with 800 pages.

The ANSI docs are farmed out to Global Documents, and the cost is
basically the cost of photocopying and collating the documents.
---
Steve Clamage, stephen.clamage@sun.com

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Valentin Bonnard <Bonnard.V@wanadoo.fr> writes:

|>  If these standard bodies can't reduce costs, wouldn't it be better
|>  if standard devellopement was done in some smaller, faster,
|>  less-costly, more effective structure ?

You mean like is happening for Java:-)?

The major contribution of the standard bodies is to make it a standard.
Without them, you, I and a few other people could just sit down over a
couple of cups of coffee, and knock out a standard.  I have my
complaints about the C++ standard, but having had to program against the
Java specification as well, I can assure you, requiring a large number
of heads to study the issues over a certain period of time isn't such a
bad thing.

Could the procedure be smaller, faster, less expensive and more
effective?  Certainly.  Could Sun or Microsoft improve on their software
development process?  Certainly.  No process is perfect.  Does there
exist, today, a better alternative?  I don't know of one -- the Java
model is certainly a lot worse.

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Barry Margolin wrote:
>
> In article <MPG.13ea9031d9d4be3098b497@news.mindspring.com>,
> Stan Brown <brahms@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >Francis Glassborow <francis@robinton.demon.co.uk> wrote in
> >comp.std.c++:
> >>Trying to drag BSI into the 21st century is hard enough without
> >>suggesting that it should provide standards for free. The real cost of
> >>free standards would be extra costs to those who actually do the work.
> >
> >I'm sorry, I don't understand. Given that the money goes not to
> >those who "do the work" but to the national standards bodies, how
> >would eliminating those payments increase the costs to those who do
> >the work?
>
> The standards bodies would presumably increase their membership fees to
> make up for the lost revenue.
>
> Yes, you read it right: not only don't standards committee members get any
> share of the income from the standard, they actually have to *pay* to
> participate (although I think ANSI makes exceptions for individual
> (i.e. non-corporate) members for which the fee would be a hardship).

Indeed, the ANSI fee is very high.

Where do standard bodies spend all this money:

- the C++ standard isn't an art book or even something in color,
  printing it shouldn't cost too much

- committee meeting are sometimes hosted by standard groups, but
  they are also often hosted by compagnies

- as you say, members of the committee aren't paid by standard
  groups

- websites with the standard, mailing lists are provided by
  compagnies like ATT and Cygnus

- I don't think ISO is going to do much advertizing about C++

If these standard bodies can't reduce costs, wouldn't it be
better if standard devellopement was done in some smaller,
faster, less-costly, more effective structure ?

--

Valentin Bonnard

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