Barry Margolin wrote:
>
>
> >                                                              If the
> >issue isn't important enough for you to write up a serious proposal, why
> >should it be important enough for them?
>
> By joining the standardization committee they've indicated willingness to
> work out the details.

By joining the standardization committee, they've indicated a
willingness to participate in the process; not a commitment
to work on anything that happens to be tossed over the fence.

The committee members are all volunteers with limited resources
for committee work. There is no way to force any member to work
on any project; and you wouldn't want the result of forced labor
anyway.

The point at issue is that person Z, who chooses not to work on the
committee, nevertheless wants the committee to do something that will
benefit Z. If Z provides a reasonable specification, the committee can
analyze and vote on it, possibly with modifications.

Absent a specification, some committee members would have to decide
it was worthwhile to produce one. There is certainly no guarantee that
every half-formed idea will find an advocate on the committee.

--
Steve Clamage, stephen.clamage@sun.com




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On Tue, 11 Jul 2000 04:37:27 CST, "E. Robert Tisdale"
<edwin@netwood.net> wrote:

>Yes.  Like all volunteers,
>"the standards guys" expect praise not criticism.

That is certainly an unwarranted generalization.

The members of the C++ committee don't expect (but would accept)
praise, and pro-actively solicit criticism. Refer to the FAQ of this
newsgroup for details.

---
Steve Clamage, stephen.clamage@sun.com

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Tony wrote:

> Gee, I wish I had someone to just hand me stuff
> that [I could take credit for] without paying anyone!
> Are the standards guys on a high horse or what?

Yes.  Like all volunteers,
"the standards guys" expect praise not criticism.
You can make suggestions and hope that one of
the standards guys will follow up on it but,
if they don't, you will be obliged to formulate
and submit a formal proposal yourself.

> BTW, C++ doesn't need MORE, it needs LESS.

I'm not sure that multi-threading should be incorpoated
into the C++ programming language
like it is incorporated into the Ada programming language.
I don't think that the ANSI/ISO C++ standard
should specify any particular thread library
or require that the standard libraries are thread safe.

I believe that there should be thread safe standard libraries
for each of the thread libraries supported by a target platform
but I don't think that compiler vendors should be required
to provide them.



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Michael S. Terrazas <michael.s.terrazas@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:nIv95.253$bR6.13368@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
> Tony <tony@my.isp> wrote in message
> news:jd395.8276$oh5.639897@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > Gee, I wish I had someone to just hand me stuff that could be taken
credit
> > of and without paying anyone too! Are the standards guys on a high
horse
> or
> > what?
>
> You obviously don't understand how standardization works.

A little better now though.

> The participants are volunteers.  Credit is not a huge issue.
> By the time all those volunteers work on it, polishing up areas
> that were not fully thought out by the proposer and putting it
> into correct standardese, while paying for the privilege to
> participate, very few desire to take any individual credit.




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<kanze@gabi-soft.de> wrote in message news:86u2e17l6d.fsf@gabi-soft.de...
>
> "Tony" <tony@my.isp> writes:
>
> |>  > Someone would have to submit a proposal to the C++
> |>  > committee. "Submit a proposal" doesn't mean just saying, "You guys
> |>  > should add MT to C++."  It means working out the syntax and
> |>  > semantics and showing how it integrates with the rest of the
> |>  > language, and especially the effect on the library.
>
> |>  Gee, I wish I had someone to just hand me stuff that could be taken
> |>  credit of and without paying anyone too! Are the standards guys on a
> |>  high horse or what?
>
> The "standards guys" are unpaid volonteers, who have full time paid jobs
> in addition to the work they do for the standards committee.  If the
> issue isn't important enough for you to write up a serious proposal, why
> should it be important enough for them?

Because they're kind of the gatekeepers?

Tony



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Francis Glassborow <francis@robinton.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:jmQ9FLAj4lZ5EwCi@robinton.demon.co.uk...
>
> In article <jd395.8276$oh5.639897@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> Tony <tony@my.isp> writes
> >> Someone would have to submit a proposal to the C++ committee. "Submit
> >> a proposal" doesn't mean just saying, "You guys should add MT to C++."
> >> It means working out the syntax and semantics and showing how it
> >> integrates with the rest of the language, and especially the effect
> >> on the library.
> >
> >Gee, I wish I had someone to just hand me stuff that could be taken
credit
> >of and without paying anyone too! Are the standards guys on a high horse
> or
> >what?
>
> Maybe you are referring to such bodies as ISO, I hope so because a
> reading of what you wrote seems deeply offensive to those people who
> actually do the work of standardising such things as computing
> languages.

Sorry, I get skeptical of institutions occassionally.

> >BTW, C++ doesn't need MORE, it needs LESS.
>
> And writing short letters is harder work than writing long ones:)

So when will it be done? :)

Tony



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Hyman Rosen wrote:
> C++ desperately needs multi-threading as part of the language. Many
> C++ developers are using it for this purpose already, and lack of a
> standard makes it difficult to know what will work.

One step in that direction would be adding replacement functions for
the standard library functions that rely on global data between
invocations.  (The next step would be to get rid of the original
thread-unsafe functions.)

I've mentioned this before, but I proposed just this thing to the
ISO C committee.  See <http://david.tribble.com/text/c9xthr.txt>.

The next step would be defining functions/classes that implement
multithreading primitives (probably along the lines of POSIX
pthreads, or even perhaps borrowing the Thread and Runnable classes
from Java).

--
David R. Tribble, mailto:david@tribble.com, http://david.tribble.com



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In article <86u2e17l6d.fsf@gabi-soft.de>,  <kanze@gabi-soft.de> wrote:
>The "standards guys" are unpaid volonteers, who have full time paid jobs
>in addition to the work they do for the standards committee.

I think this is a poor characterization of it.  In most cases, they work
for companies that rely on the standard (either because they sell
implementations or because they use the language and need portability), and
part of their job responsibility is participating in standardization so
that the language will meet their companies' needs.

If they haven't budgeted the time the spend on standards into their time,
that's a time management problem.  But calling them "unpaid volunteers" is
wrong.  The only ones for whom that may be appropriate would be private
consultants; in their case, though, they can consider it an investment in
their careers (just as the companies who are footing the bills for their
employee members consider it an investment in their business).

>              If the
>issue isn't important enough for you to write up a serious proposal, why
>should it be important enough for them?

By joining the standardization committee they've indicated willingness to
work out the details.

--
Barry Margolin, barmar@genuity.net
Genuity, Burlington, MA
*** DON'T SEND TECHNICAL QUESTIONS DIRECTLY TO ME, post them to newsgroups.
Please DON'T copy followups to me -- I'll assume it wasn't posted to the group.



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"Tony" <tony@my.isp> writes:
> Steve Clamage <stephen.clamage@sun.com> wrote in message
> > Someone would have to submit a proposal to the C++ committee. "Submit
> > a proposal" doesn't mean just saying, "You guys should add MT to C++."
> > It means working out the syntax and semantics and showing how it
> > integrates with the rest of the language, and especially the effect
> > on the library.
>
> Gee, I wish I had someone to just hand me stuff that could be taken
credit
> of and without paying anyone too! Are the standards guys on a high horse
or
> what?

At the point where you were making such a proposal, especially for
multi-threading, you would be a member of the committee. You aren't
paying them to produce a proposal either; why should they add it
just because you want it?

> BTW, C++ doesn't need MORE, it needs LESS.

C++ desperately needs multi-threading as part of the language. Many
C++ developers are using it for this purpose already, and lack of a
standard makes it difficult to know what will work.



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"Tony" <tony@my.isp> writes:

|>  > Someone would have to submit a proposal to the C++
|>  > committee. "Submit a proposal" doesn't mean just saying, "You guys
|>  > should add MT to C++."  It means working out the syntax and
|>  > semantics and showing how it integrates with the rest of the
|>  > language, and especially the effect on the library.

|>  Gee, I wish I had someone to just hand me stuff that could be taken
|>  credit of and without paying anyone too! Are the standards guys on a
|>  high horse or what?

The "standards guys" are unpaid volonteers, who have full time paid jobs
in addition to the work they do for the standards committee.  If the
issue isn't important enough for you to write up a serious proposal, why
should it be important enough for them?

--
James Kanze                               mailto:kanze@gabi-soft.de
Conseils en informatique orient   e objet/
                   Beratung in objektorientierter Datenverarbeitung
Ziegelh   ttenweg 17a, 60598 Frankfurt, Germany Tel. +49(069)63198627

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In article <jd395.8276$oh5.639897@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
Tony <tony@my.isp> writes
>> Someone would have to submit a proposal to the C++ committee. "Submit
>> a proposal" doesn't mean just saying, "You guys should add MT to C++."
>> It means working out the syntax and semantics and showing how it
>> integrates with the rest of the language, and especially the effect
>> on the library.
>
>Gee, I wish I had someone to just hand me stuff that could be taken credit
>of and without paying anyone too! Are the standards guys on a high horse
or
>what?

Maybe you are referring to such bodies as ISO, I hope so because a
reading of what you wrote seems deeply offensive to those people who
actually do the work of standardising such things as computing
languages. None of them are paid, indeed some even fund themselves (and
that comes out at several thousand dollars a year in actual cash outflow
let alone the hundreds of hours of unpaid work.


>
>BTW, C++ doesn't need MORE, it needs LESS.

And writing short letters is harder work than writing long ones:)


Francis Glassborow      Association of C & C++ Users
64 Southfield Rd
Oxford OX4 1PA          +44(0)1865 246490
All opinions are mine and do not represent those of any organisation

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Tony wrote:
>
> Steve Clamage <stephen.clamage@sun.com> wrote in message
> news:395242A9.AD42DC1F@sun.com...
....
> > Someone would have to submit a proposal to the C++ committee. "Submit
> > a proposal" doesn't mean just saying, "You guys should add MT to C++."
> > It means working out the syntax and semantics and showing how it
> > integrates with the rest of the language, and especially the effect
> > on the library.
>
> Gee, I wish I had someone to just hand me stuff that could be taken
credit
> of and without paying anyone too! Are the standards guys on a high horse
or
> what?

The standard is a volunteer operation, and correspondingly way
understaffed. If you want something done, it must either be important
enough to you to justify doing the work yourself, or you must convince
someone else that it's important enough for them to do the work instead.
If it's not important enough to you, you'll have a hard time convincing
them it's important enough for them. You want credit? Join your national
body and volunteer, and you'll be rewarded with all the credit you can
handle (and all the blame as well).



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Tony <tony@my.isp> wrote in message
news:jd395.8276$oh5.639897@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> Gee, I wish I had someone to just hand me stuff that could be taken credit
> of and without paying anyone too! Are the standards guys on a high horse
or
> what?

You obviously don't understand how standardization works.
The participants are volunteers.  Credit is not a huge issue.
By the time all those volunteers work on it, polishing up areas
that were not fully thought out by the proposer and putting it
into correct standardese, while paying for the privilege to
participate, very few desire to take any individual credit.





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Steve Clamage <stephen.clamage@sun.com> wrote in message
news:395242A9.AD42DC1F@sun.com...
>
> Robert Klemme wrote:
> >
> >
> > i doubt whether they will incorporate this into the standard.
> > multi-threading is a serious issue that is quite complex - at least as i
> > understand it.  and it is quite dependant on the underlying OS.  i am
> > not sure whether the standards body will take on this herculean (?)
> > task.  does anybody know any better?
>
> Someone would have to submit a proposal to the C++ committee. "Submit
> a proposal" doesn't mean just saying, "You guys should add MT to C++."
> It means working out the syntax and semantics and showing how it
> integrates with the rest of the language, and especially the effect
> on the library.

Gee, I wish I had someone to just hand me stuff that could be taken credit
of and without paying anyone too! Are the standards guys on a high horse or
what?

BTW, C++ doesn't need MORE, it needs LESS.



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Tony wrote:
>
> Steve Clamage <stephen.clamage@sun.com> wrote in message
> news:395242A9.AD42DC1F@sun.com...
> >
> > Robert Klemme wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > i doubt whether they will incorporate this into the standard.
> > > multi-threading is a serious issue that is quite complex - at least
as i
> > > understand it.  and it is quite dependant on the underlying OS.  i am
> > > not sure whether the standards body will take on this herculean (?)
> > > task.  does anybody know any better?
> >
> > Someone would have to submit a proposal to the C++ committee. "Submit
> > a proposal" doesn't mean just saying, "You guys should add MT to C++."
> > It means working out the syntax and semantics and showing how it
> > integrates with the rest of the language, and especially the effect
> > on the library.
>
> Gee, I wish I had someone to just hand me stuff that could be taken
credit
> of and without paying anyone too! Are the standards guys on a high horse
or
> what?

I don't know whether that remark is a troll for flames, or an
indication of total unfamiliarity with the process.  Refer to the
comp.std.c++ FAQ at http://reality.sgi.com/austern_mti/std-c++/faq.html
for information on how the C++ committee does its work. D&E ("The
Design and Evolution of C++" by Bjarne Stroustrup) also has a
discussion of how features are proposed and evaluted.

The situation has nothing to do with taking credit for the work of
others. Committee members are not identified by name in the ISO
standard. The work is understood to be the joint effort of many:
official members as well as contributors who are not on the committee.

Your remark can be viewed from another perspective: Committee members
are not only unpaid volunteers, we must pay to participate. We set
our agenda based on what we think are important issues, based on our
own analyses, suggestions (or demands) from other standards-
related bodies, and from the general public. Evidence of the latter
can be found in the FAQ mentioned above, regarding public-comment
periods and our procedures on Defect Reports. In addition, anyone
can join the J16 committee; it is not an exclusive club.

So someone comes along and says, "I have a half-baked idea for a
feature that would help me a lot. You unpaid volunteers should do the
work necessary to flesh it out and integrate it into the language, so
that my job will be easier. But of course I won't invest any of my
own effort in the process. Let me know when you are done."

If the suggestion interests one or more committee members, they might
take on the job. In any case, SOMEONE has to do the work. If those
who propose a feature are unwilling to invest time and effort in
defining it, how can they expect anyone else to do so?

--
Steve Clamage, stephen.clamage@sun.com



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Robert Klemme wrote:
>
>
> i doubt whether they will incorporate this into the standard.
> multi-threading is a serious issue that is quite complex - at least as i
> understand it.  and it is quite dependant on the underlying OS.  i am
> not sure whether the standards body will take on this herculean (?)
> task.  does anybody know any better?

Someone would have to submit a proposal to the C++ committee. "Submit
a proposal" doesn't mean just saying, "You guys should add MT to C++."
It means working out the syntax and semantics and showing how it
integrates with the rest of the language, and especially the effect
on the library. (What guarantees are provided for the various functions
and objects in the library in the presence of MT?)  And how do
exceptions interact with MT, if at all? (Can you catch an exception
in a different thread?  What happens to the rest of the program if
an exception in a thread results in a call to abort?)

It seems to me that the proposal also would have to specify MT
in a way that could reasonably be implemented on a range of platforms
integrated with native threads on the platform. Otherwise, it would
do more harm than good (IMHO).

Although some person or group outside the commitee might choose to do
this huge amount of work, I think the most likely route to success is
the creation of a new New Project within the C++ committee.

--
Steve Clamage, stephen.clamage@sun.com



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