I use Deja, and on the rare occasions when I have time
to peruse both groups I do see the messages twice.
(Then again, the whole "New messages only" rarely
works correctly -- I very often see old messages anyway.)

Speaking of which... I'm feeling Deja Vu right now...

Anyway, this is something that I live with. It hasn't been
a big deal. I use Deja, and on rare occasions I actually do
have time to peruse both groups. Then I see the messages
twice. (But the whole "New messages only" rarely works
correctly anyway -- I very often see old messages.)

I'm feeling Deja Vu right now...

There's no problem just living with it. I use Deja, and when
I read both groups I see messages twice. It's really a bother!
At least the messages aren't actually posted twice.

Speaking of which... I'm feeling Deja Vu right now...

Anyway, I forgot what I was going to say. Something that I
always have to put up with. Probably has to do with Deja
showing me the messages TWICE! Can you believe that? At
least the messages aren't actually posted twice.

But it's not that big of a deal. It's only on rare occasions
that I even have TIME to peruse both groups.

Feeling Deja Vu. Gotta go now; feeling Deja Vu.

--
Allan_W@my-deja.com is a "Spam Magnet," never read.
Please reply in newsgroups only, sorry.
Please reply in newsgroups only, sorry.
Gotta go now.


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

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In article <B45EE1C5.B0C5%darin@bentspoon.com>, Darin Adler
<darin@bentspoon.com> wrote:
> If a message is cross-posted to the both groups, it should be
> rejected. The poster should get a response saying that one group or
> the other should be chosen for the message.
> This would not prevent threads moving from one group to the other, but
> it would prevent multiple copies of the same message for the many who
> subscribe to both groups.

Standard news software already does this automatically for crossposted
messages; one copy of the message is stored in the newsspool. The Xref:
header is added locally, showing where the message lies in relation to
each of the crossposted newsgroups at the local site.  For example, the
Xref header for Darin Alder's message on my local machine was:

> Xref: newsflash comp.std.c++:25766 comp.lang.c++.moderated:51151

Admittedly, there may be programs out there that don't support this (in
particular, I don't think Netscape Collabra uses this when downloading
news for offline reading), but I wouldn't consider that a good reason to
prohibit crossposts.

>       [ Send an empty e-mail to c++-help@netlab.cs.rpi.edu for info ]
>       [ about comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: do this! ]

OTOH, I would suggest to the clc++m moderators that they add a pointer
to the FAQ to their automatically-included trailer, along the lines of
the csc++ trailer:

> [ comp.std.c++ is moderated.  To submit articles, try just posting
with ]
> [ your news-reader.  If that fails, use mailto:std-c++@ncar.ucar.edu
  ]
> [              --- Please see the FAQ before posting. ---
  ]
> [ FAQ: http://reality.sgi.com/austern_mti/std-c++/faq.html
  ]

Alternatively, the reply from c++-help@netlab.cs.rpi.edu could have a
FAQ pointer included, since it lists "already in the FAQ" as a reason to
reject a submission.

--
Edmund Schweppe aka merlinvin@my-deja.com
Blissfully free of official positions


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And for two, it would prevent a poster from getting a responce from people
who read only one of the newsgroups. I think that the very co-existence of
both newsgroups suggests that they are somewhat different in orientation and
the crowd that visits them. Therefore if something is cross-posted it should
not be rejected as long as is qualifies by content, and we will have to deal
with the emotional problem with seeng something twice, :).
max.
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In article <B45EE1C5.B0C5%darin@bentspoon.com>, Darin Adler
<darin@bentspoon.com> writes
>Is there any reason not to make this change?

In view of the following, is there any real reason to do so?

>
>  {Other than that the moderators have already gone through a lot of
>  technical setup pain to allow crossposts specifically between these
>  two groups (which used to cause lots of headaches) and throwing away
>  all that work and heartache... no, none that I can think of. :-) -hps}

Francis Glassborow      Journal Editor, Association of C & C++ Users
64 Southfield Rd
Oxford OX4 1PA          +44(0)1865 246490
All opinions are mine and do not represent those of any organisation

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Darin Adler <darin@bentspoon.com> wrote:
> [...]
> This would not prevent threads moving from one group to the other, but it
> would prevent multiple copies of the same message for the many who
subscribe
> to both groups.

  Some news readers indicate crossposted article as read, even
  though I read them in another news group. What remains is the
  disk space used to cache the article twice. But this shouldn't
  be an issue anymore.

> Is there any reason not to make this change?
> [...]

  Because my time for reading news groups is very limited
  and I'm not that interessted in language details (but how
  to use them), I read only comp.lang.c++.moderated.
  Still, those threads that appear in both groups give me a
  chance to look at them without having to scan comp.std.c++.

  Schobi




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On 23 Nov 1999 16:35:40 GMT, Darin Adler <darin@bentspoon.com> wrote:

:
: Since both comp.lang.c++.moderated and comp.std.c++ are moderated groups, I
: suggest the following change to the moderation policy of both groups:
:
: If a message is cross-posted to the both groups, it should be rejected. The
: poster should get a response saying that one group or the other should be
: chosen for the message.

How about other moderated groups such as comp.compilers?

: This would not prevent threads moving from one group to the other

The traditional way to move a thread from one group to another is to
crosspost an article with followups set to the new group.

It is also possible for a poster to change the groups for the
followup to just one group.  This is sometimes done.  It is also
possible to crosspost the followup and set followups to one of the
groups.  Mr. Bonnard often demonstrates his knowledge of this fact,
but few others do.

: but it
: would prevent multiple copies of the same message for the many who
: subscribe to both groups.

I read both groups.  I read them in alphabetical order; so, clc++m
comes before csc++.  When I get to csc++, the first thing I look at
is the Newsgroups header.  If clc++m is there, I skip it.  I will not
see your article when I get to csc++.  What bothers me is the multipost
of the same article to both groups.  That puts two copies on all
servers.

Almost anything acceptable for csc++ is also acceptable for clc++m.
Csc++ rejects crossposts which are not acceptable to them.  Clc++m
generally accepts the crossposts because they are acceptable to
them.  Csc++ also rejects posts to that group which should be in
clc++m but not in csc++.  If crossposts are rejected, then clc++m
should also reject posts which are in the domain of csc++.  It would
be interesting if both groups thought that the post belonged in the
other :)

Yes articles should be posted to one of the groups; however, the
desires of the poster are also important.  The fact that both
groups are moderated and co-operate should help to discourage
crossposts.  The article will go to one of the groups, spend
some time and be approved and sent to the other group where it
spends some more time prior to final approval.

Here are some facts.

            posts to clc++m    crossposted to csc++

Aug                 1768              26
Sep                 1854              13
Oct                 1953              39
Nov                 1587             127

I think you are simply seeing one of those peaks with a few threads
which are crossposted and getting action.  Do note that it is still
less than 10% and usually is less than 5%.

This thread may help to reduce crossposts without any change in the
policies of either group.  I'm sure that at least you will edit the
Newsgroup header or set Followup-To.  I'm also sure that this
crosspost should not have been automatically rejected.

The moderators of both groups tend to be rather moderate and try not
to set off charter demands on the members of the group.

Speaking for me,
John


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[This followup was also e-mailed to the cited author for speed -- please
follow up in the newsgroup.]

darin@bentspoon.com (Darin Adler) wrote in comp.std.c++:
>Since both comp.lang.c++.moderated and comp.std.c++ are moderated groups, I
>suggest the following change to the moderation policy of both groups:
>
>If a message is cross-posted to the both groups, it should be rejected. The
>poster should get a response saying that one group or the other should be
>chosen for the message.

I agree that many that are crossposted probably should not be.

>This would not prevent threads moving from one group to the other, but it
>would prevent multiple copies of the same message for the many who subscribe
>to both groups.

Actually, if a message is crossposted, many newsreader programs are smart
enough not to present it multiple times to the user.

>Is there any reason not to make this change?

I can think of one:

People would be encouraged to submit multiple copies, one to c.l.c++.m
and one to c.s.c++. That would increase overall net traffic, always a bad
thing, and not decrease the workload on the moderators.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA
                http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/
C++ FAQ Lite: http://www.cerfnet.com/~mpcline/c++-faq-lite/
the C++ standard: http://webstore.ansi.org/ansidocstore/default.asp
more FAQs: http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/faqget.htm
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Since both comp.lang.c++.moderated and comp.std.c++ are moderated groups, I
suggest the following change to the moderation policy of both groups:

If a message is cross-posted to the both groups, it should be rejected. The
poster should get a response saying that one group or the other should be
chosen for the message.

This would not prevent threads moving from one group to the other, but it
would prevent multiple copies of the same message for the many who subscribe
to both groups.

Is there any reason not to make this change?

  {Other than that the moderators have already gone through a lot of
  technical setup pain to allow crossposts specifically between these
  two groups (which used to cause lots of headaches) and throwing away
  all that work and heartache... no, none that I can think of. :-) -hps}

    -- Darin


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