> On a slightly different note, has anyone written a program/utility which
> owners of ISO+IEC+14882-1998.pdf can use to convert the damn PDF
> document into more readable HTML similar to the format of the freely
> available draft standard ?  I have no intentions of putting it on a web
> page, I just hate the Acrobat Reader!
>
> - Phil Brabbin

Seconded.

PDF (and its near ancestor Postscript) are useless for online browsing
of reference material such as standards.

If the standards bodies are truly interested in creating documents
that are useful to users, they should abandon PDF.

PDF/Postscript's only slight utility is in drawings; until the Internet
standards for 2D drawings are finalized, that *is* an issue; however,
the C++ standard is peculiarly lacking in drawings.
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On a slightly different note, has anyone written a program/utility which
owners of ISO+IEC+14882-1998.pdf can use to convert the damn PDF
document into more readable HTML similar to the format of the freely
available draft standard ?  I have no intentions of putting it on a web
page, I just hate the Acrobat Reader!

- Phil Brabbin


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In article <37E57DE1.901F5C00@ix.netcom.com>,
pderocco@ix.netcom.com says...
> Markus Mauhart wrote:
> >
> > They now think copy&paste of copyrighted text to other documents is
> > forbidden by their EULA, even when it works (this holds for all docs
> > purchased from ANSI).
>
> Yes, that's what they said to me, too. But what their EULA says is
> irrelevent, because copyright law allows for "fair use", which means
> quoting reasonably small portions of the copyrighted material--which
> happens to be exactly what we all want this ability for.

Wouldn't it then be legal to provide a "converter" that first examines
the original protected PDF to ensure you purchased it (check file length
then do a digest on the bytes of the file wich CRC-32 or MD5 or
something), then "converts" it to the unprotected PDF (basically by doing
a file length tweak followed by patch)?  Nothing is being copied
illegally because you are simply converting an existing document.  If
this is legal and someone cares to provide such a program, please post it
on the web or ftp and provide a link here.
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Paul D. DeRocco <pderocco@ix.netcom.com> wrote in 37E015CF.28719C04@ix.netcom.com...
>
> In article <7r76r0$1o5$1@fleetstreet.Austria.EU.net>,
>   "Markus Mauhart" <mmauhart@ping.at> wrote:
>
> > 2. Get an updated file from ANSI.ORG:
> >   Revisit their web site (http://www.ansi.org), enter your
> >   account (email address + password used when purchasing the
> >   'disabled' version of ISO+IEC+14882-1998.pdf; they will email the
> >   password to you if you want),
>
> I wasn't able to figure out how to do this. If you could provide better
> instructions, I'd love to do this. I do note, however, that the ANSI web
> site advertises that its PDF documents are copy-disabled.

Meanwhile I have posted one a little more detailed description how I got
the select&copy-enabled document from ANSI.ORG.

But currently this will not work, as some people reported here in comp.std.c++.
One sent me an email covering his conversation with people at ANSI.
They now think copy&paste of copyrighted text to other documents is forbidden
by their EULA, even when it works (this holds for all docs purchased from ANSI).
For now they'd look into it further to see if the C++ standard is an exception.

I think it is a good idea that they "look into it further", especially as the
EULA, taken literally, doesnt allow printing and most other normal usage of a
'technical document'.



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Markus Mauhart wrote:
>
> They now think copy&paste of copyrighted text to other documents is
> forbidden by their EULA, even when it works (this holds for all docs
> purchased from ANSI).

Yes, that's what they said to me, too. But what their EULA says is
irrelevent, because copyright law allows for "fair use", which means
quoting reasonably small portions of the copyrighted material--which
happens to be exactly what we all want this ability for.

--

Ciao,                       Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                        mailto:pderocco@ix.netcom.com
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That's more or less what I tried, but over a week later I have no response.
When you said "Log In" with the same account,etcc... I thought there was
a more direct means.

It's still a major pain in the ass, but currently don't have a problem,
because someone slipped me a cracked Acrobat4 under the table that
ignores the locks.
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In article <37DE9EC1.746AEDAC@sensor.com>, Ron Natalie  <ron@sensor.com> wrote:
>The other option is that there are cracked versions of PDF
>readers out there.


Aladdin GSview, with the PDF security patch from:

 http://www.ozemail.com.au/%7Egeoffk/pdfencrypt/

Will at least let you extract the text of the standard (or specified pages) to
a file.  However, there is no nice text selection tool like Acrobat.

Jan Mikkelsen
janm@transactionsite.com




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Ron Natalie <ron@sensor.com> writes:

> AllanW wrote:
> I'm not even sure what the original message means.  I never got
> a chance to do anything on their web page other than Order another
> copy.  I couldn't find any button labeled feedback.

I found a button which took a to a (sort of) feedback form. I stated
my problem and submitted the form. Later the same day a got

1) An bounce email telling me that my email was not delivered because
to recipient was unknown

2) A very brief email from their store manager who asked me to "review
   the End User Licence Agreement that was accepted at the time of
   purchase", and, if I still had any questions after that, to contact
   their "Director of Contracts & International Marketing Policy"

Somehow I think I'm going to stop my efforts at this point... :-(

------------ Matti Rintala ----------- bitti@cs.tut.fi ------------
"Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say
that I have no grasp of it whatsoever."
 (Baron von M   nchausen in "The Adventures of Baron von M   nchausen")


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In article <7rmjrv$7tg$1@phaedrus.zeta.org.au>,
janm@penfold.transactionsite.com (Jan Mikkelsen) wrote:

> In article <37DE9EC1.746AEDAC@sensor.com>, Ron Natalie  <ron@sensor.com>
wrote:
> >The other option is that there are cracked versions of PDF
> >readers out there.
>
>
> Aladdin GSview, with the PDF security patch from:
>
>         http://www.ozemail.com.au/%7Egeoffk/pdfencrypt/
>
> Will at least let you extract the text of the standard (or specified pages) to
> a file.  However, there is no nice text selection tool like Acrobat.

I will have to point out again, if this were like the *free* HTML versions
of the pre-final versions, *ONE PERSON (or a team)* could do these
conversions to non-protected and nice HTML and make their work available
to EVERYONE.

But, I suppose my argument applies to anything that is illegal to redistribute.
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In article <7r76r0$1o5$1@fleetstreet.Austria.EU.net>,
  "Markus Mauhart" <mmauhart@ping.at> wrote:

> Two possible solutions if you have purchased the 'disabled' version:
>
> 1. What one can do is convert the pdf file to html through the
>   following web site: http://access.adobe.com/

If you have a PostScript printer driver, and Acrobat Distiller, you can
convert PDF to PDF. The result allows text selection, but of course loses
the nice table of contents.

> 2. Get an updated file from ANSI.ORG:
>   Revisit their web site (http://www.ansi.org), enter your
>   account (email address + password used when purchasing the
>   'disabled' version of ISO+IEC+14882-1998.pdf; they will email the
>   password to you if you want),

I wasn't able to figure out how to do this. If you could provide better
instructions, I'd love to do this. I do note, however, that the ANSI web
site advertises that its PDF documents are copy-disabled.

--

Ciao,                       Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                        mailto:pderocco@ix.netcom.com


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Ron Natalie <ron@sensor.com> wrote in: 37DE9EC1.746AEDAC@sensor.com...
>
> I'm not even sure what the original message means. I never got
> a chance to do anything on their web page other than Order another
> copy.  I couldn't find any button labeled feedback.

My message meant almost exactly what I said, only "use 'feedback'" meant
"click on 'help'", which leads you to =
[http://webstore.ansi.org/ansidocstore/help.asp]
There in the field labled "Please let us know the specific problem: =
(Required)" fill in
what I mentioned.
E.g. I wrote:
"I need to reload document ISO+IEC+14882-1998.pdf, cause the file =
version I"
"ordered and loaded on 1999/X/Y ("Your order number is X****")has the"
"technical problem that it does not allow "selecting text and =
graphics"."
"As I know from news://comp.std.c++, the currrent file version has"
"this problem fixed."
"So it would be nice if you re-enable me for downloading this document."
"Please send me an email with your proposed solution."

And some days later someone@ansi.org sent me an email, attached
file ISO+IEC+14882-1998.pdf with select&copy enabled. This file has
exactly the same 'created' and 'modified' time/date than the other one.




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On 09 Sep 99 19:38:54 GMT, "Markus Mauhart" <mmauhart@ping.at> wrote:

} 2. Get an updated file from ANSI.ORG:
}   Revisit their web site (http://www.ansi.org), enter your
}   account (email address + password used when purchasing the
}   'disabled' version of ISO+IEC+14882-1998.pdf; they will email the
}   password to you if you want), search for
}   "14882" and use 'feedback' to ask them for the current
}   (= copy&paste enabled) version. Probably you need to provide
}   date (?) and order number of your original purchase, both
}   available on the confirmation mailed some days after ordering
}   and on the HTML-page presented immediately after ordering
}   (confirmed.asp).

Are there any other changes between the versions?


Have fun,
Alex.

--
My email address is intentionally mangled to foil spambots.
Please remove the "---filter---" from the address for replying.
Sorry for the inconvenience.


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In article <7r76r0$1o5$1@fleetstreet.Austria.EU.net>,
  "Markus Mauhart" <mmauhart@ping.at> wrote:

> Two possible solutions if you have purchased the 'disabled' version:
>
> 1. What one can do is convert the pdf file to html through the
>   following web site: http://access.adobe.com/

I've done this. The resulting HTML is useful, but not very easy
to read.

> 2. Get an updated file from ANSI.ORG:
>   Revisit their web site (http://www.ansi.org), enter your
>   account (email address + password used when purchasing the
>   'disabled' version of ISO+IEC+14882-1998.pdf; they will email the
>   password to you if you want),

I purchased mine many months ago. I am no longer employed at
the same company, so that E-mail account is no longer available
to me.

> search for
>   "14882" and use 'feedback' to ask them for the current
>   (=3D copy&paste enabled) version. Probably you need to provide
>   date (?) and order number of your original purchase, both
>   available on the confirmation mailed some days after ordering
>   and on the HTML-page presented immediately after ordering
>   (confirmed.asp).

Which I no longer have, and seemingly it wouldn't do any good
if I did (because I no longer have access to the E-mail account).

I do still have the same credit card number that I used when
I ordered it, but I no longer remember the date. Any ideas?

Perhaps someone with access to both versions could write a
diff-style comparison, to be used to "patch" the old version
into the new version?

If not, am I stuck?

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AllanW wrote:
>
> In article <7r76r0$1o5$1@fleetstreet.Austria.EU.net>,
>
>
> Which I no longer have, and seemingly it wouldn't do any good
> if I did (because I no longer have access to the E-mail account).
>
> I do still have the same credit card number that I used when
> I ordered it, but I no longer remember the date. Any ideas?

I'm not even sure what the original message means.  I never got
a chance to do anything on their web page other than Order another
copy.  I couldn't find any button labeled feedback.  I tried a
general e-mail address for the electronic store, but they have
not answered.

The other option is that there are cracked versions of PDF
readers out there.



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In article <7qnoj0$1b26@enews4.newsguy.com>,
Darin Adler <darin@bentspoon.com> wrote:

>I find this frustrating, too. Does someone know the logic behind this? Was
>it an intentional decision on the part of ANSI?

Yes.  The copy I prepared for them did not have the bit turned on.
--
Andrew Koenig, ark@research.att.com, http://www.research.att.com/info/ark



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> > >The document "ISO+IEC+14882-1998.pdf" I purchased from ANSI has the
> > >'security arttribute'
> > >"Selecting Text and Graphics: not allowed". Hence I and every other =
not

.. some days ago I asked for a solution of that problem, the
following is a summary
--------------------------------------------------------------
When posting to comp.std.c++ it is often necessary to cite
from the standard. Using its electronic version from ANSI.ORG
(ISO+IEC+14882-1998.pdf), "Select, copy and paste" is possible
at least since summer '99 while it is disabled with prior
versions of that file (->menue: File/Document Info/Security
.. Selecting Text and Graphics: Not Allowed).

Two possible solutions if you have purchased the 'disabled' version:

1. What one can do is convert the pdf file to html through the
  following web site: http://access.adobe.com/

2. Get an updated file from ANSI.ORG:
  Revisit their web site (http://www.ansi.org), enter your
  account (email address + password used when purchasing the
  'disabled' version of ISO+IEC+14882-1998.pdf; they will email the
  password to you if you want), search for
  "14882" and use 'feedback' to ask them for the current
  (=3D copy&paste enabled) version. Probably you need to provide
  date (?) and order number of your original purchase, both
  available on the confirmation mailed some days after ordering
  and on the HTML-page presented immediately after ordering
  (confirmed.asp).
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Malcolm Gray wrote:

>
> >The document "ISO+IEC+14882-1998.pdf" I purchased from ANSI has the
> >'security arttribute'
> >"Selecting Text and Graphics: not allowed". Hence I and every other not
>
> All I can comment here is that having purchased the document a few weeks
> ago and viewing it with Acrobat reader 4 on NT 4 my copy shows "selecting
> text and graphics: allowed" and I can indeed to so.
>

I went and downloaded Acrobat 4 (also NT), and my copy that I bought when
it was first released is still locked.  You wouldn't want to send me yours?
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The document "ISO+IEC+14882-1998.pdf" I purchased from ANSI has the =
'security arttribute'
"Selecting Text and Graphics: not allowed". Hence I and every other not =
WG21-member
has to type citations manually (or should one cite from one of the =
outdated draft versions,
available as HTML ?).
Is this a necessary and desired 'feature' ?
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Markus Mauhart wrote:
>
> The document "ISO+IEC+14882-1998.pdf" I purchased from ANSI has the 'security arttribute'
> "Selecting Text and Graphics: not allowed". Hence I and every other not WG21-member
> has to type citations manually (or should one cite from one of the outdated draft versions,
> available as HTML ?).
> Is this a necessary and desired 'feature' ?

No it's completely moronic (as is the PDF-ication of the
document in general).  You can illegally copy the document
in total, but you have to stand on your head to make
legitimate fair use quotations of pieces of it.
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The document "ISO+IEC+14882-1998.pdf" I purchased from ANSI has the
'security arttribute'
"Selecting Text and Graphics: not allowed". Hence I and every other not
WG21-member
has to type citations manually (or should one cite from one of the
outdated draft versions,
available as HTML ?).
Is this a necessary and desired 'feature' ?



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Markus Mauhart <mmauhart@ping.at> wrote:

> The document "ISO+IEC+14882-1998.pdf" I purchased from ANSI has the 'security
> arttribute' "Selecting Text and Graphics: not allowed". Hence I and every
> other not WG21-member has to type citations manually (or should one cite from
> one of the outdated draft versions, available as HTML ?). Is this a necessary
> and desired 'feature' ?

I find this frustrating, too. Does someone know the logic behind this? Was
it an intentional decision on the part of ANSI? Is there some way around it?
I must admit I'm tempted to search hacker sites for something that cracks
PDF file security, because it's such a pain to type citations in by hand.

    -- Darin


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It is possible (if a little slow) to extract the text using ghostview.

Markus Mauhart wrote:
>
> The document "ISO+IEC+14882-1998.pdf" I purchased from ANSI has the 'security arttribute'
> "Selecting Text and Graphics: not allowed". Hence I and every other not WG21-member
> has to type citations manually (or should one cite from one of the outdated draft versions,
> available as HTML ?).
> Is this a necessary and desired 'feature' ?

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I'll add my complaint on this issue. I see no rationale for preventing
people from cutting and pasting out of a document that can otherwise be
duplicated in whole. I was hoping my full copy of Adobe Acrobat could
circumvent this restriction, but apparently not.

Why in the world would ANSI/ISO object to people cutting and pasting quotes?
At least they allow printing...


--
  *     Scott Robert Ladd
  *     Coyote Gulch Productions - http://www.coyotegulch.com





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> The document "ISO+IEC+14882-1998.pdf" I purchased from ANSI has the 'security arttribute'
> "Selecting Text and Graphics: not allowed". Hence I and every other not WG21-member
> has to type citations manually (or should one cite from one of the outdated draft versions,
> available as HTML ?).
> Is this a necessary and desired 'feature' ?

I found this remarkably annoying too, but everyone else seems to accept it as "the way things
are". An incredibly stupid decision on ANSI's part.



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Markus Mauhart <mmauhart@ping.at> wrote in message
news:7qnlik$sct$3@fleetstreet.Austria.EU.net...

>The document "ISO+IEC+14882-1998.pdf" I purchased from ANSI has the
>'security arttribute'
>"Selecting Text and Graphics: not allowed". Hence I and every other not

All I can comment here is that having purchased the document a few weeks
ago and viewing it with Acrobat reader 4 on NT 4 my copy shows "selecting
text and graphics: allowed" and I can indeed to so.




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