ajitvarghese@my-deja.com writes:

>Is it possible to list the names of the present committe members

In principle yes, but some object to having their names publicly
listed in a newsgroup. Those who don't mind the notoriety usually
speak publicly in the newsgroups.

>and/or
>their respective subject matter expertise??( so that we have an idea of
>who is handling what and the questions can be properly worded without
>being too descriptive or too vague!!))

Anyone who wants to be a member can join. There are no special
qualifications to be a member, and no listing anywhere of the
expertise or backround of members. Members work on items in
which they have an interest, and when they have the time to do so.

If you want to submit a Defect Report, go ahead and do so.
Follow the guidelines that were published in this and other
newsgroups, and which can be found in the comp.std.c FAQ:
 http://reality.sgi.com/austern_mti/std-c++/faq.html

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"Ed Brey" <brey@afd.mke.etn.com> writes:

>Since comp.std.c++ is an avenue for submitting defect reports, I think it
>would be appropriate for this newsgroup's FAQ to maintain a link to a
>current list of defect reports.  ...
>before posting a (unofficial) DR whether the problem is already under
>consideration.

>Additionally, parts of the Steve's post answer question B.10. in the FAQ,
>"How can I submit questions about or corrections to the standard?", which is
>currently unanswered in the FAQ.

The FAQ is in the process of being updated. I intended for the
update to appear at about the same time as my posted notice,
but there were some delays. The update will contain the text
of the notice that was posted here, as well as links to the
issues lists.

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In article <7k62ao$kn65@interserv.etn.com> "Ed Brey" <brey@afd.mke.etn.com> writes:
>Steve Clamage <stephen.clamage@sun.com> wrote in message
>news:7j48m1$40b$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com...
>>
>> Two lists of issues and DRs currently before the Committee are now
>> available on each of two public web sites:
>>     <http://www.dkuug.dk/jtc1/sc22/wg21/>
>>     <http://www.comeaucomputing.com/iso/>
>> The dk site is the official public web page for the C++ Committee.
>
>..would be appropriate for this newsgroup's FAQ to maintain a link to a
>current list of defect reports....  "Is such-and-such a known problem
>with the C++ spec?" qualifies as a frequently asked question.

This is a good point and I wouldn't think anybody disagrees with you.
Do note though that all of this has only come about recently (making the
DR lists easily accessible, etc) so I would expect the FAQ to be
updated shortly now that things are in place.

- Greg
--
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jpotter@falcon.lhup.edu (John Potter) writes:

>stephen.clamage@sun.com (Steve Clamage) wrote:

>: Queries, Defect Reports, and the C++ Standard

>This seems like it may be a partial system.  A very good description
>of what a DR is, but a bit of csc++ activity seems to be missing.

The missing bits: The C++ committee studies the issue and argues
about it. A solution is proposed, and is voted on. Repeat until
a proposal is accpeted or the issue becomes moot.

>: How are DRs handled?

>: If a submitted DR is accepted, the C++ Committee eventually
>: prepares a formal response.

>If the DR was submitted via csc++ will the formal response also
>be posted to csc++?  This could be a high speed insertion process
>with a very low speed handling process.

It is a low-speed handling process. The committee has issues
submitted in early 1998 which remain open. If analysis shows
there is an obvious handling which is clearly correct, the
issue gets settled early. Otherwise, it can take an arbitrarily
long time.

>I assume that a properly formatted DR will be accepted regardless
>of its accuracy which is the usual usenet moderation policy.  That
>seems to agree with the committee processing procedures.  A DR must
>be processed.

Yes. Some DR's are closed as "not a defect," for example, even
DR's submitted by committee members.

>Are DRs open to followups?  Are opinions of non-committee members
>welcome?  This is a csc++ moderation policy which does not yet
>exist for these new things.

There is no procedure for non-committee-members to participate
in committee deliberations. You can join the committee, or
bend the ear of a committee member, or post comments in csc++.
(Csc++ is not an official channel, but it is regularly read
by many committee members.)

>Nothing is ever settled in a usenet group, but the discussion could
>be useful to the committee.  The formal response would be an unusual
>but welcome finalization.

Every DR gets a formal response after it is settled. I suppose
they could be posted to a newsgroup.

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In article <buF73.22488$77.282617@newscene.newscene.com>,
  jpotter@falcon.lhup.edu (John Potter) wrote:
> If the DR was submitted via csc++ will the formal response also
> be posted to csc++?  This could be a high speed insertion process
> with a very low speed handling process.

I can't speak for anyone else, but my plan is to update the core
language issues list after issues change status (regardless of
origin) and to post an announcement here each time I change the
issues list.  If someone else wishes to track the progress of
issues that originated here and post those results, that's fine.

The handling process will, of necessity, be low-speed.  The
Committee is only meeting twice a year now, and issues can only
be resolved at a committee meeting.  Furthermore, we want to
move deliberately; we're no longer dealing with a draft that is
expected to have errors and that can easily be amended at the
next meeting.  Since it's a real Standard now, we want to be very
sure that any changes we make are correct.

> I assume that a properly formatted DR will be accepted regardless
> of its accuracy which is the usual usenet moderation policy.  That
> seems to agree with the committee processing procedures.  A DR must
> be processed.

This is a point that Steve didn't deal with in detail in his
posting, although it is implied.  The Committee must process DRs.
However, not every problem that is reported here is a DR.  Under
ISO procedures, an official DR is only created by a National Body
(ANSI, AFNOR, DIN, etc.) or by the project editor.  Under the
procedures adopted by J16+WG21, the project editor has determined
that he will act on the recommendation of the Committee, so de
facto, the Committee must recognize a reported problem as a defect
in order for it to be treated as an official DR (except those
reported directly by NBs).

As the maintainer of the core language issues list, when I receive
a suggested DR from one of the moderators of this group, I first
look to see if the issue is a real problem.  If in my mind the
issue is, in fact, dealt with clearly enough in the existing words
of the Standard, I will engage the submitter in a (private) dialog
to explain my analysis.  If he/she is convinced, I will not enter
the report on the list.  If not, I will add the report along with
the contrary analysis and let the core language working group
(and, if it gets that far, the full Committee) ultimately decide.

Another possible outcome is that the suggested DR is sufficiently
similar to an existing issue that it makes most sense simply to
add an annotation to that issue rather than opening a new one.  That
was what I did (after informing the submitter) with one of the four
suggested core language DRs posted here; the other three will have
separate issues in the next revision of the issues list.

The point I wanted to clarify, though, was that even though a
reported problem here may have the words "Defect Report" in the
subject line, that doesn't make it automatically an official DR
that the Committee must resolve.  I'm going to give submitters
as much benefit of the doubt as I can without damaging the
process; however, if there is an unresolved dispute over the
appropriateness of a report, that is what the ombudsman procedures
are for.

> Are DRs open to followups?  Are opinions of non-committee members
> welcome?

Again, speaking only for myself, I'm happy to see further analysis
of suggested DRs in this group.  There are a lot of smart people
here, many of whom are not committee members, and it's quite likely
that they may think of aspects of the problem that might otherwise
be overlooked in the discussion within the committee.  I will
incorporate particularly cogent points from followup posts in the
description of the problem in the issues list.

--
William M. Miller, wmm@fastdial.net
Software Emancipation Technology (www.setech.com)


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Hi:

Is it possible to list the names of the present committe members and/or
their respective subject matter expertise??( so that we have an idea of
who is handling what and the questions can be properly worded without
being too descriptive or too vague!!))


Varghese 'sam' Samuel


Thought for the day:
<<
It is not how quick you program that saves the day!. It is how easy and
clear you make your intents understood!
:-) >>

Vargthese 'sam' Samuel
SAM CONSULTING
5101 river road
#1907
Bethesda, MD 20816
samvarghese@hotmail.com
samvarghese@yahoo.com


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Steve Clamage <stephen.clamage@sun.com> wrote in message
news:7j48m1$40b$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com...
>
> Two lists of issues and DRs currently before the Committee are now
> available on each of two public web sites:
>     <http://www.dkuug.dk/jtc1/sc22/wg21/>
>     <http://www.comeaucomputing.com/iso/>
> The dk site is the official public web page for the C++ Committee.

Since comp.std.c++ is an avenue for submitting defect reports, I think it
would be appropriate for this newsgroup's FAQ to maintain a link to a
current list of defect reports.  That way, potential posters can check
before posting a (unofficial) DR whether the problem is already under
consideration.

IHMO, "Is such-and-such a known problem with the C++ spec?" qualifies as a
frequently asked question.

Additionally, parts of the Steve's post answer question B.10. in the FAQ,
"How can I submit questions about or corrections to the standard?", which is
currently unanswered in the FAQ.
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stephen.clamage@sun.com (Steve Clamage) wrote:

: Queries, Defect Reports, and the C++ Standard

This seems like it may be a partial system.  A very good description
of what a DR is, but a bit of csc++ activity seems to be missing.

: How are DRs handled?

: If a submitted DR is accepted, the C++ Committee eventually
: prepares a formal response.

If the DR was submitted via csc++ will the formal response also
be posted to csc++?  This could be a high speed insertion process
with a very low speed handling process.

I assume that a properly formatted DR will be accepted regardless
of its accuracy which is the usual usenet moderation policy.  That
seems to agree with the committee processing procedures.  A DR must
be processed.

Are DRs open to followups?  Are opinions of non-committee members
welcome?  This is a csc++ moderation policy which does not yet
exist for these new things.

Nothing is ever settled in a usenet group, but the discussion could
be useful to the committee.  The formal response would be an unusual
but welcome finalization.

I commend the committee for opening yet another avenue for wide
spread participation in the standard process.

John
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John Potter wrote:

> I assume that a properly formatted DR will be accepted regardless
> of its accuracy which is the usual usenet moderation policy.  That
> seems to agree with the committee processing procedures.  A DR must
> be processed.

No. ``DR''s might be rejected by moderators if they are dedundant,
ask for new features, or other such things. That is, we really
filter the real DRs. We might also ask the submiter to resubmit
something more clear (that's what some of my comments on the
standard deserve).

--

Valentin Bonnard
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Queries, Defect Reports, and the C++ Standard

Background:

ISO (the International Organization for Standardization, which
is ultimately responsible for the C++ standard) has a single
mechanism called Defect Reports for reporting problems and
asking for interpretations.  This article discusses the mechanism.
It also explains how you can learn about Defect Reports that have
already been submitted, and submit new ones of your own.

What is a Defect Report (DR)?

A DR is not a request for an extension or a suggestion for a
change. A DR is not an opportunity to have someone teach you C++.

A DR reports an apparent error, inconsistency, ambiguity, or
omission in the published final standard (ISO/IEC IS 14882:1998,
Programming Languages -- C++).
Examples: The standard
    - has a misspelled word or grammatical error (error)
    - says 2 is an odd number (error)
    - says objects are red in one place, blue in another (inconsistency)
    - says valid if non-positive, invalid if non-negative (ambiguity for 0)
    - gives no semantics if x<0 (omission)
    - says sorting a container takes log n time (impossible to implement)
A DR can request a clarification when language is not clear.
A DR can in addition suggest a desired outcome. (Examples: "Objects
should always be blue." "The results for x<0 should be undefined.")

How are DRs handled?

If a submitted DR is accepted, the C++ Committee eventually
prepares a formal response.  The response might be that no defect
exists.  If the Committee agrees that a defect has been
identified, it will eventually adopt a formal resolution. The
resolution might be to ignore the defect, or to correct it and
publish the correction in a Technical Corrigendum (TC).  Over the
next 5 years or so, probably two TCs will be published. (The
standard itself can come for review any time after 2003. At
most 2 TCs to any version of the standard can be published.)

How can I find out about already-submitted DRs?

As a procedural matter, a submission is known inside the Committee
as an "issue", until it is either closed or elevated to DR status.
Two lists of issues and DRs currently before the Committee are now
available on each of two public web sites:
    <http://www.dkuug.dk/jtc1/sc22/wg21/>
    <http://www.comeaucomputing.com/iso/>
The dk site is the official public web page for the C++ Committee.

The "core language" issues concern primarily clauses 1-16 of the
C++ standard.  The "library" issues concern primarily clauses
17-27 of the standard.  There is some overlap, and some of the
Annexes are covered by both lists.  The lists are updated several
times per year.

The lists include proposed resolutions. A "proposed resolution"
reflects the best judgement of the C++ Committee as of the
last revision date of the issue. It has no official weight, and
does not override the contents of the standard. It provides
guidance as to how the issue is likely to be resolved officially
in a TC.

How can I submit a DR?

If you believe you have found a defect, first review the published
issue lists to be sure it has not already been submitted. It wastes
everyone else's time to process duplicate reports.

Assuming your defect is not already in the lists, the simplest way
to submit a DR is via the moderated usenet newsgroup
"comp.std.c++".  The moderators of that newsgroup have agreed to
act as a preliminary filter, and to forward reasonable-looking DRs to
the C++ Committee for consideration. Post your submission to that
newsgroup, or send it by email to
    std-c++@ncar.ucar.edu

Prepare your submission following these guidelines:

1.  The Subject line must begin with "Defect Report:", followed by
a short title. Examples:
    Defect Report: Must errno be a macro?
    Defect Report: Ambiguous wording about time
Any submission to comp.std.c++ that does not follow that form will
be assumed to be an ordinary newsgroup article and not a DR.

2.  The submission must contain a single DR on one topic, although
it might involve more than one section of the C++ Standard.  The
description must be clear enough so that it can be evaluated.

3.  The submission must concern an error, inconsistency,
ambiguity, or omission in the standard, or something similar.  It
must not propose a new feature or a substantial change in the
language definition or library interface.  (A TC is not allowed to
make such changes, so a DR cannot propose them.)

4. The submission must refer specifically to the final published
standard, not to any previous draft version. It wastes everyone's
time (including yours) if you report a flaw in a draft that was
corrected in the final standard.  See the FAQ for comp.std.c++
    <http://reality.sgi.com/austern_mti/std-c++/faq.html>
for information on how you can get a copy of the standard.

5.  The submission must identify relevant sections of the standard
by section number and mnemonic designation. (Examples appear below.)
In long sections it is helpful to mention the paragraph numbers
as well.

No particular format is required, as long as the guidelines above
are followed.  The submission should be plain ASCII text, not
html, not anything formatted for a word processing program.  The
language should be English.  (Your English writing need only be
understandable.  DRs will be not rejected just because of incorrect
grammar or spelling.)

Examples:

    "How can I create and use a stack of strings? I can't figure
    it out from the material in clauses 21 and 23." Not a DR.
    The standard is not meant to be a tutorial, and is not suitable
    for trying to learn the language. You can ask the question
    in a usenet C++ newsgroup, or send it to a C++ magazine that
    offers a Q&A column, or read a C++ textbook.

    "The standard is defective because the library does not
    contain a hash table template."  Not a DR.  Despite the clever
    use of "defective", it suggests a substantial addition.

    "The stuff about errno isn't clear."  Not a valid submission.
    It doesn't say what isn't clear, and doesn't identify the
    parts of the standard that aren't clear.

    "In Section 17.4.1.2 [lib.headers] and 19.3 [lib.errno] it is
    unclear whether errno must be a macro."  A valid submission,
    although more detail would be better.  (A more elaborate DR
    has already been submitted on this subject.)

    "Section X.Y.Z [foo.bar] paragraph 18 says 'time flies.' Is
    that a statement about time, or a requirement to measure the
    flight of insects?"  Probably a valid submission.  You should
    first check to see whether the explanation already exists
    elsewhere in the standard.  Check the document index, or
    search the document if you have an electronic version.  In
    addition, it is common for the introductory paragraphs of a
    clause to be imprecise (to provide an overview) with
    detailed explanations appearing later.

What happens after I submit a DR to comp.std.c++?

The moderators of comp.std.c++ will verify that the guidelines
have been followed. If they find that the guidelines have not
been followed, they will return the submission to you with an
explanation. You can submit a corrected version if you wish.

If the moderators agree that the submission follows the guidelines,
they will forward it to the C++ Committee, where it will be
processed as explained above. The moderators will also post your
submission in the comp.std.c++ newsgroup. That posting will serve
as your acknowledgement. (If accepted by the C++ Committee, your
submission will also eventually appear in one of the issues lists.)

If you feel that your submission has been unfairly rejected by
the newsgroup moderators, you can submit it directly to the
ISO National Body for your country. In the US it is ANSI; in the
UK it is BSI; in France it is AFNOR; in Germany it is DIN. Check
the ISO home page for contact information:
    <http://www.iso.ch/>

If you cannot locate an appropriate National Body, the UK
delegation to the C++ Committee has volunteered to act as
ombudsman.  If all else has failed and you still think you have a
valid DR, you can submit it to them via Francis Glassborow:
    francis@robinton.demon.co.uk


---
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Chair, J16 C++ Committee

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In article <7j48m1$40b$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com>,
Steve Clamage <stephen.clamage@sun.com> wrote:
>4. The submission must refer specifically to the final published
>standard, not to any previous draft version.

Can you submit a DR referring to something in a previous TC?

--
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Barry Margolin <barmar@bbnplanet.com> writes:

>In article <7j48m1$40b$1@engnews1.eng.sun.com>,
>Steve Clamage <stephen.clamage@sun.com> wrote:
>>4. The submission must refer specifically to the final published
>>standard, not to any previous draft version.

>Can you submit a DR referring to something in a previous TC?

Yes, but let's hope it won't be necessary. :-)

--
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