In article <36112933.F183E84@prolifics.com>,
  Hyman Rosen <hymie@prolifics.com> wrote:
> gurnec@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > >   Hyman Rosen <hymie@prolifics.com> wrote:
> > >> Quoting a paragraph or two falls under "fair use", but translating the
entire
> > >> document (seems to me) is going a bit far.
> > >
> > >This whole issue has me steaming (and Blargg does that, since he's made of
> > >fire and lava).
>
> Please mind your attributions. I wrote nothing of the lines quoted above.

My sincerest apologies.  Sometimes it's difficult to follow all those >'s  :P

I also mistakenly wrote in my post:
<Jim Hyslop explains several ways to convert a pdf to different formats.>

when in fact I had clipped out a paragraph written by you (that explained
various conversion techniques.)

I'll try to be more careful in the future...

-Chris Gurnee

email: gurnec_at_mediaone_dot_net

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Francis Glassborow (francis@robinton.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: Yes, I support that 100%.  Just jealously guard what you have paid for
: from theft by others.  Unless ANSI can raise funds by such sales, we,
: the people who actually do the work, or our employers have to pay more
: for the privelege.

Given that Communism has been mentioned here, I'll point out that one of
the benefits of a market driven economy is more often being able to pay for
what one wants instead of what one can get. I paid $18 bucks for the PDF
file but would have happily paid $25 for a well done set of HTML
files. Point being that there is market demand for more useful formats of
the C++ standard (as well as for the printed copy sooner) and if the
standards organizations really were trying to maximize revenue, they would
address these markets.

The analogy between Smalltalk and Acrobat does Smalltalk a vicious
disservice.

-Z-
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In article <6ufbph$h5k$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
  "Michael C Rieser" <mike_rieser@earthlink.net> wrote:
> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

A mime is a terrible thing to waste.

[snip]
> One big disappointment, though the pdf allows printing, it is secure =
> from copy and paste.
> What good is an electronic document if you can't copy and paste from it?
> I was hoping to keep it handy while reading the newsgroups too :(
>
> Is there anyway to "unlock" the copy and paste?

Obviously there is, though it may depend on your OS and on the
software you have installed.

If you don't have the software to modify pdf files (as I don't), but
you're running on Microsoft Windows (just about any version), try this.
Install a driver for a new printer. The printer name is
"Generic/Text Only" and it's from Microsoft. The port should be FILE
instead of LPTx.  WARNING: Do NOT make this your default printer.
(If you do, many applications won't be able to find any font except
"System" until you put it back.)

Now open the standard and print to the new printer. A dialog box will
ask you for a filename; when "printing" is finished, open this file in
any text editor, and peruse until your heart goes pitta-pat.

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In article <199809271959.OAA18968@centurion.flash.net>,
  blargg@flash.net (Gargantua Blargg) wrote:
> Maybe someone could post diffs from the last draft (CD2?) to the final?
> That wouldn't be copyright infringement, right?
>
> And perhaps this will actually be approved by a moderator. Yeah right. It
> would be out of protocol here, wouldn't fit in. Ah well. Off to see if
> anyone has the standard on their site yet...

> [ Moderator's note:  The article concerns the C++ standard and
>   contains no personal attacks, so I'm approving it. -sdc ]

$18US is pretty dang reasonable. However, the issue does keep
coming up.  So, without getting emotional: moderators, you're
probably going to have to decide this sooner or later, and
probably fairly darn soon, so please start thinking about it now.

Suppose someone were to convert it to HTML, then do a diff with
CD2 and post the result here. Someone with specific legal
knowledge (as opposed to high quality guesses), please tell us:
is this legal? Why or why not? Moderators, please tell us: would
it be approved? Why or why not?

If the answer to either question is "not," then suppose someone
were to *DESCRIBE* the differences, point by point, perhaps in a
series of posted articles a la GotW. Again, for someone with
actual knowledge, is it legal? Why or why not? And for the
moderators, would it be approved? Why or why not?

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Francis Glassborow wrote:
>
> In article <199809271959.OAA18968@centurion.flash.net>, Gargantua Blargg
> <blargg@flash.net> writes
> >Well? Share you time and work with us all. Post the damn thing! It'll
> >probably be 1/3 the size of the original Acro-crap version.
>
> Please do no such thing.  It has been a long uphill struggle to get as
> far as making it available at reasonable price.

What would be reasonable would be to post instructions and/or tools to
allow anyone else to repeat the same process easily, on their own legal
copy of the PDF. I bought the PDF, and would like an HTML version.

--

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Paul
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In article <360EC173.B43D6B06@ix.netcom.com>,
  "Paul D. DeRocco" <pderocco@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Can anyone explain why the C++ standard is 2.72 megabytes and costs $18,
> while the C standard is 17.74 megabytes and costs $135?

Note that the C++ reference incorporates the C reference by ... well,
by reference. Thus, many things that must be spelled out in C can be
called "just like C" in C++.

As for the cost, consider that $18 / 2.72 = $6.62 per megabyte, while
$135 / 17.74 = $7.61 per megabyte. Not that much of a difference. This
may be the same effect that occurs with paper books in bookstores; if
you choose to buy an unabridged dictionary, you expect to pay more than
you would pay for a good paperback novel. In this case the price is
based on the printing cost more than on the cost of the content.

> The C++ standard
> is 776 pages long. Is the C standard anything like 5061 pages long?

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First off, you had to know your post was flame-bait when you wrote it
:).  I'll try to keep MHO in good taste, but it may be difficult....

<occasional clipping and summarizing throughout, but still too long and
boring of a post :)   >


Gargantua Blargg wrote in message
<199809271959.OAA18968@centurion.flash.net>...
>> > jim.hyslop@leitch.com wrote:
>> > > They've managed to disable the ability to mark text for copying -
>> > > that's gonna make it rough to provide quotes from the Draf...  oops,
>> > > I mean Standard - in NG discussions.  Oh, well - small price to pay,
>> > > I guess :-)
>
>Yeah, real small <snicker>

I have to agree with you on this one.  This is an annoyance that won't
stop anyone who is determined to copy it to text form, while it punishes
those of us who are honest, and who only want to get occasional quotes
from the standard.  I would be very pleased if ANSI posted a free patch
to the document that disabled this "feature."


<Jim Hyslop explains several ways to convert a pdf to different formats.>
>
>Well? Share you time and work with us all. Post the damn thing! It'll
>probably be 1/3 the size of the original Acro-crap version.

I, for one, would be the first to report any free versions of the
standard I found on the web.  More on that later.


>   Hyman Rosen <hymie@prolifics.com> wrote:
>> Quoting a paragraph or two falls under "fair use", but translating the entire
>> document (seems to me) is going a bit far.
>
>This whole issue has me steaming (and Blargg does that, since he's made of
>fire and lava).

roleplaying, surely a lost art :)

>Are we forgetting what the damn purpose of this is? It is to allow others
>to get information about the new decided-upon definition of the language.
>All this payment copyright information-restriction stuff is bullshit.  C++
>was not built on the proprietary pay-for-information principle that so
>much other software has been built on. The early C++ implementations (as
>I've read from Bjarne himself) were provided (basically) free for others
>to experiment with and IMPROVE ON. If this damn standards document were
>free like that, a real HTML version would be available in no time. Each
>person wouldn't have to spend a "few hours" of work converting it to HTML
>and tweaking it).

I have no problem with free standards, free software, etc, but back in
the real world, not everything can be free.  ( treading lightly:  )
Communism may have some theoretical benefits, but it has always failed
when applied to real-world institutions.  Even given the fact that
committee members invested their own time towards writing the standard,
there are still administrative types to pay (I think), and who knows how
many other hidden costs.  In the end, nobody is directly making any
profits from charging for the standard (AFAIK).  Besides, do you really
think that the standard isn't worth a measly 18 bucks (in the US
anyways, don't know about other countries)?


>And that's not even mentioning the file format it comes in. Adobe Acrobat.
>Bloat-o-rama. Acrobat compared to HTML is like Smalltalk compared to C++.
>WHY??? It is ironic that the computer-readable version is in such a crappy
>format, WITH copying of text disabled, for a language like C++, which is
>against that kind of bloat. I'm glad I was warned, as I almost took the
>trap and downloaded it (and paid for it).

I shouldn't even touch that reference to Smalltalk, but I will anyways.
I don't know a lot about Smalltalk, but one could argue that is has a
lot less "bloat" than C++, being much more oriented towards OO-design
than effeciency or programming convenience, but enough on that topic.
The last thing I want to start is a C++ vs. Smalltalk war, those are
rarely pretty :).  Any replies on this subject should probably be
pointed to my email address, and not this NG.

As far as the choice of using Acrobat as a distribution format, I think
it was a good choice.  Whatever your opinion of that format is, you must
admit that it has become a de-facto standard for technical
documentation, perhaps only superceded by LaTeX.  It is also flexable
and free (but, then again, so is HTML I suppose.)


>Me? I'm going to wait until someone puts the damn thing (in HTML) up for
>free on some site. Screw copyrights and this restriction of information.
>I'm not bold enough to do this, but I'm sure someone is (or has
>anonymity).

I should start off by saying that I've had my share of piracy that I've
committed.  However, I have never (well, pretty darn close to never)
pirated something that I think deserved its price, despite the hypocrisy
some might find with this reasoning.  Even though the committee members
will never see any of that money I paid for the standard, I still think
its price is justified (for reasons mentioned above).  As long as I'm
(sort of) on the topic, I'd like to express my sincere appreciation for
all the hard work that has gone into the standard, right from day one,
even before the word "standard" had anything to do with it.  When I
become a bit more experienced with C++, I will seriously consider
joining the committee and offering my own help as a bit of a payback to
those who have done such a great job on it thus far.

As I mentioned above, I would go so far as to report any copy of the
standard that I found online.  I think the committee deserves at least
that much.  Gimme a break, its only 18 bucks, if you can't afford that,
then I imagine owning it can't be all that important to you.

BTW, does anyone know to whom, besides the website provider, I should send
such complaints (of copyright violations)?


>But perhaps jim.hyslop@leitch.com was just saying the standard public
>"obey copyrights at all costs" line, or just replying this fact for the
>hell of it.
>
>Maybe someone could post diffs from the last draft (CD2?) to the final?
>That wouldn't be copyright infringement, right?

Point your browser to:
  http://www.dinkumware.com/changesii.html
Although far from complete, it does list some of the more important
changes.  Incidentally, there is at least one error in that document
(hint, hint, someone from dinkumware :)  It states that
basic_string<>::insert has a version that takes an iterator and a
default argument (of the instantiated type) as stated in CD2.  The
default argument is mandatory in the IS, I'm not sure about the FDIS.


>And perhaps this will actually be approved by a moderator. Yeah right.  It
>would be out of protocol here, wouldn't fit in. Ah well. Off to see if
>anyone has the standard on their site yet...
>
>--
>blarggflash.net | Gargantua Blargg | http://www.flash.net/~blargg/
>
>[ Moderator's note:  The article concerns the C++ standard and
>  contains no personal attacks, so I'm approving it. -sdc ]

I was at first a little surprised it was approved.  After I read the
first paragraph, I went down to the bottom to see if this was one of
those unapproved rogue messages that have been floating around on my
news server.  However, in retrospect, I have to agree with the
moderator.  Censoring an article that may have been written, IMHO, in
poor taste, is entirely inappropriate.

That's about the end of my rave, for now, anyways....

-Chris

email: gurnec_at_yahoo_dot_com

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James Kuyper wrote:
>
> My copy of the C9X draft standard is 1405635 bytes and 550 pages long.
> I don't know about C89, but I'd expect it to be shorter.

Well, 17.74 megabytes is what it said in the ISO on-line store. Since
the C++ incorporates the C spec by reference, instead of by value, I'd
like to have a copy of the latter; but at $135, I'll suffer along
without it.

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In article <36100866.135BD5DA@ix.netcom.com>, Paul D. DeRocco
<pderocco@ix.netcom.com> writes
>What would be reasonable would be to post instructions and/or tools to
>allow anyone else to repeat the same process easily, on their own legal
>copy of the PDF. I bought the PDF, and would like an HTML version.

Yes, I support that 100%.  Just jealously guard what you have paid for
from theft by others.  Unless ANSI can raise funds by such sales, we,
the people who actually do the work, or our employers have to pay more
for the privelege.



Francis Glassborow      Chair of Association of C & C++ Users
64 Southfield Rd
Oxford OX4 1PA          +44(0)1865 246490
All opinions are mine and do not represent those of any organisation


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Paul D. DeRocco wrote:
>
> Can anyone explain why the C++ standard is 2.72 megabytes and costs $18,
> while the C standard is 17.74 megabytes and costs $135? The C++ standard
> is 776 pages long. Is the C standard anything like 5061 pages long?
>

Object oriented programming is more efficient :-)
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gurnec@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >   Hyman Rosen <hymie@prolifics.com> wrote:
> >> Quoting a paragraph or two falls under "fair use", but translating the entire
> >> document (seems to me) is going a bit far.
> >
> >This whole issue has me steaming (and Blargg does that, since he's made of
> >fire and lava).

Please mind your attributions. I wrote nothing of the lines quoted above.
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gurnec@my-dejanews.com writes:

>>Are we forgetting what the damn purpose of this is? It is to allow others
>>to get information about the new decided-upon definition of the language.
>>All this payment copyright information-restriction stuff is bullshit.  C++
>>was not built on the proprietary pay-for-information principle that so
>>much other software has been built on. The early C++ implementations (as
>>I've read from Bjarne himself) were provided (basically) free for others
>>to experiment with and IMPROVE ON. If this damn standards document were
>>free like that, a real HTML version would be available in no time. Each
>>person wouldn't have to spend a "few hours" of work converting it to HTML
>>and tweaking it).

>I have no problem with free standards, free software, etc, but back in
>the real world, not everything can be free.  ...
>  In the end, nobody is directly making any
>profits from charging for the standard (AFAIK).

> ...

>As I mentioned above, I would go so far as to report any copy of the
>standard that I found online.  I think the committee deserves at least
>that much.

The C++ Committee doesn't enter into this analysis as such.
If the committee had its way, the standard would be free to all,
apart from distribution costs. No money accrues to commitee
members. Quite the reverse: members pay for the privilege of
producing the documents.

ISO and ANSI support themselves by dues from members plus the
sale of documents. Understandably, they try to protect their
sources of income. In line with that policy, they assert ownership
of the standards and copyrights.

One can argue that charging for documents, apart from distribution
costs, is not appropriate. I don't imagine anyone reading this
newsgroup feels otherwise. Members of ANSI and ISO have been
lobbying for some time to make documents freely available, so
far without much success. The best that has been accomplished
was to make the public-comment versions free, and that had to
be fought for.

--
Steve Clamage, stephen.clamage@sun.com
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Siemel Naran wrote:
>
> On 23 Sep 1998 16:38:10 GMT, Andrew Koenig <ark@research.att.com> wrote:
>
> >I have just learned that ANSI is making copies of the C++ standard
> >available in machine-readable form over the web.
> >
> >For more information, visit http://webstore.ansi.org/ansidocstore/default.asp
>
> Is this "Document Number: ISO/IEC 14882-1998".  It's got a funny sounding
> name, so I just want to make sure this is the one.
>

That's the one (I just followed the big red arrow from the
front page).  It's a whole lot prettier than CD2.



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Andrew Koenig wrote:
>
> I have just learned that ANSI is making copies of the C++ standard
> available in machine-readable form over the web.
>
> For more information, visit http://webstore.ansi.org/ansidocstore/default.asp

$18 for those who are currious and it comes as a 2.7 Meg
PDF file (over 700 pages).

Hows the "annotated" version coming Andrew?
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Ron Natalie wrote in message <3609572A.8C2F5B6F@sensor.com>...
>
>Siemel Naran wrote:
>>
>> On 23 Sep 1998 16:38:10 GMT, Andrew Koenig <ark@research.att.com> wrote:
>>
>> >I have just learned that ANSI is making copies of the C++ standard
>> >available in machine-readable form over the web.
>> >
>> >For more information, visit
http://webstore.ansi.org/ansidocstore/default.asp
>>
>> Is this "Document Number: ISO/IEC 14882-1998".  It's got a funny sounding
>> name, so I just want to make sure this is the one.
>>
>
>That's the one (I just followed the big red arrow from the
>front page).  It's a whole lot prettier than CD2.

Why on the page following the big red arrow it says:


"Abstract: NOTE: This draft standard is being processed
 simultaneously as an American National Standard and an
 International Standard."

DRAFT? What the ... ?      :-(((

Thanks

Victor
--
Please remove underscores from my address when replying by mail
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In article <EzsJJt.2B2@research.att.com>,
  ark@research.att.com (Andrew Koenig) wrote:
> In article <6ubvbr$jfe$1@pollux.dnai.com>,
> Victor Bazarov <v_bazarov@i_ps.net> wrote:

> > "Abstract: NOTE: This draft standard is being processed
> >  simultaneously as an American National Standard and an
> >  International Standard."
> >
> > DRAFT? What the ... ?      :-(((

> I don't know.  Maybe they consider a draft until they have finished processing it.
> Maybe they made a typographical error.

I just bought and DL'd the file, and the title page states "Processed and
adopted by ASC X3 and approved by ANSI as an American National Standard.  Date
of approval: 7/27/98"

So it definitely sounds like the final version.

They've managed to disable the ability to mark text for copying - that's gonna
make it rough to provide quotes from the Draf... oops, I mean Standard - in NG
discussions.  Oh, well - small price to pay, I guess :-)

Jim

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jim.hyslop@leitch.com wrote:
> They've managed to disable the ability to mark text for copying -
> that's gonna make it rough to provide quotes from the Draf... oops,
> I mean Standard - in NG discussions.  Oh, well - small price to pay,
> I guess :-)

There are several ways to get the text out of a pdf document.
The free xpdf suite comes with pdftotext, which generates a pure text form
of the pdf document. Or, you can use a service provided directly by Adobe.
If you e-mail a URL pointing to a pdf file to pdf2html@adobe.com or to
pdf2txt@adobe.com, you will very shortly receive an e-mail back with the
converted file. I did this myself with the copy of the standard I bought.
The HTML conversion isn't perfect, but a few hours of work with a good
editor or scripting language (emacs, perl) should be enough to whip it into
shape.


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In article <360BE0D8.43D11CF4@prolifics.com>,
  Hyman Rosen <hymie@prolifics.com> wrote:

> jim.hyslop@leitch.com wrote:
> > They've managed to disable the ability to mark text for copying -
> > that's gonna make it rough to provide quotes from the Draf... oops,
> > I mean Standard - in NG discussions.  Oh, well - small price to pay,
> > I guess :-)

> There are several ways to get the text out of a pdf document.
> The free xpdf suite comes with pdftotext, which generates a pure text form
> of the pdf document. Or, you can use a service provided directly by Adobe.
> If you e-mail a URL pointing to a pdf file to pdf2html@adobe.com or to
> pdf2txt@adobe.com, you will very shortly receive an e-mail back with the
> converted file. I did this myself with the copy of the standard I bought.
> The HTML conversion isn't perfect, but a few hours of work with a good
> editor or scripting language (emacs, perl) should be enough to whip it into
> shape.

Hmmm... I suspect this sort of thing may be a copyright infringement.
Quoting a paragraph or two falls under "fair use", but translating the entire
document (seems to me) is going a bit far.

Jim

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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Content-Type: text/plain;
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Andrew Koenig wrote in message ...
>
>I have just learned that ANSI is making copies of the C++ standard
>available in machine-readable form over the web.
>
>For more information, visit =
http://webstore.ansi.org/ansidocstore/default.asp


Last night when I saw the price, I bought it in a flash.  Thanks.

One big disappointment, though the pdf allows printing, it is secure =
from copy and paste.
What good is an electronic document if you can't copy and paste from it?
I was hoping to keep it handy while reading the newsgroups too :(

Is there anyway to "unlock" the copy and paste?

Mike

------=_NextPart_000_0058_01BDE820.5A4F8400
Content-Type: text/html;
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Andrew Koenig<ARK@RESEARCH.ATT.COM> wrote in=20
message<EZQNN3.67E@RESEARCH.ATT.COM> ...</DIV>
<DIV>&gt;<BR>&gt;I have just learned that ANSI is making copies of the =
C++=20
standard<BR>&gt;available in machine-readable form over the=20
web.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;For more information, visit <A=20
href=3D"http://webstore.ansi.org/ansidocstore/default.asp">http://webstor=
e.ansi.org/ansidocstore/default.asp</A><BR></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff">Last night when I saw the =
price, I=20
bought it in a flash.&nbsp; Thanks.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff">One big disappointment, =
though the=20
pdf allows printing, it is secure from copy and paste.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff">What good is an =
electronic document=20
if you can't copy and paste from it?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff">I was hoping to keep it =
handy while=20
reading the newsgroups too :(</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff">Is there anyway to=20
&quot;unlock&quot; the copy and paste?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: =
#ffffff">Mike</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0058_01BDE820.5A4F8400--
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Hyman Rosen wrote:
>
> There are several ways to get the text out of a pdf document.
> The free xpdf suite comes with pdftotext, which generates a pure text
> form of the pdf document. Or, you can use a service provided directly
> by Adobe. If you e-mail a URL pointing to a pdf file to
> pdf2html@adobe.com or to pdf2txt@adobe.com, you will very shortly
> receive an e-mail back with the converted file. I did this myself with
> the copy of the standard I bought. The HTML conversion isn't perfect,
> but a few hours of work with a good editor or scripting language
> (emacs, perl) should be enough to whip it into shape.

If you have Acrobat (the writer), you can use Acrobat Reader to print to
Acrobat, thus turning it into another PDF file that doesn't have marking
and copying disabled. Of course, then you lose the hyperlinks and table
of contents.

Now that I think of it, Acrobat may have the ability to edit that bit in
an existing .PDF.

--

Ciao,
Paul
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>> They've managed to disable the ability to mark text for copying -
>> that's gonna make it rough to provide quotes from the Draf... oops,
>> I mean Standard - in NG discussions.  Oh, well - small price to
pay,
>> I guess :-)
>
>There are several ways to get the text out of a pdf document.

I bought the standard online today.  Then, I went to access.adobe.com,
and converted it to HTML.  Then, I did a bit of massaging.  Finally, I
wrote a tiny C++ program that ripped the HTML into a one-file-per-page
format.

Finally, I wrote a viewer in CBuilder 3 that presents the outline as a
tree on the left pane, and the page as an HTML view.  After that, it
was a quick matter to use the Install Shield Express to make the whole
package a two disk installable program.  So now I can click on a
heading in the tree, and instantly have a view of that page.  It will
make looking things up a dream, and since the HTML viewer allows me to
select and copy text, it makes excerpting simple.

Some of the HTML is munged, to be sure, but it sure beats the hell out
of trying to find it in Acrobat Reader.

In short, I now have the standard at my fingertips.

The next feature I will add is a cross reference, as found at the back
of the document, by keyword, for quick searches.  I might add a
"annotate" feature as well, to keep notes to myself on particular
things.

--
Quinn Tyler Jackson

email: qjackson@wave.home.com
url: http://www.qtj.net/~quinn/
ftp: qtj.net






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In article <6uivlv$v2i$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, jim.hyslop@leitch.com wrote:

> In article <360BE0D8.43D11CF4@prolifics.com>,
>   Hyman Rosen <hymie@prolifics.com> wrote:
>
> > jim.hyslop@leitch.com wrote:
> > > They've managed to disable the ability to mark text for copying -
> > > that's gonna make it rough to provide quotes from the Draf... oops,
> > > I mean Standard - in NG discussions.  Oh, well - small price to pay,
> > > I guess :-)

Yeah, real small <snicker>

> > There are several ways to get the text out of a pdf document.
> > The free xpdf suite comes with pdftotext, which generates a pure text form
> > of the pdf document. Or, you can use a service provided directly by Adobe.
> > If you e-mail a URL pointing to a pdf file to pdf2html@adobe.com or to
> > pdf2txt@adobe.com, you will very shortly receive an e-mail back with the
> > converted file. I did this myself with the copy of the standard I bought.
> > The HTML conversion isn't perfect, but a few hours of work with a good
> > editor or scripting language (emacs, perl) should be enough to whip it into
> > shape.

Well? Share you time and work with us all. Post the damn thing! It'll
probably be 1/3 the size of the original Acro-crap version.

> Hmmm... I suspect this sort of thing may be a copyright infringement.
> Quoting a paragraph or two falls under "fair use", but translating the entire
> document (seems to me) is going a bit far.

This whole issue has me steaming (and Blargg does that, since he's made of
fire and lava).

Are we forgetting what the damn purpose of this is? It is to allow others
to get information about the new decided-upon definition of the language.
All this payment copyright information-restriction stuff is bullshit. C++
was not built on the proprietary pay-for-information principle that so
much other software has been built on. The early C++ implementations (as
I've read from Bjarne himself) were provided (basically) free for others
to experiment with and IMPROVE ON. If this damn standards document were
free like that, a real HTML version would be available in no time. Each
person wouldn't have to spend a "few hours" of work converting it to HTML
and tweaking it).

And that's not even mentioning the file format it comes in. Adobe Acrobat.
Bloat-o-rama. Acrobat compared to HTML is like Smalltalk compared to C++.
WHY??? It is ironic that the computer-readable version is in such a crappy
format, WITH copying of text disabled, for a language like C++, which is
against that kind of bloat. I'm glad I was warned, as I almost took the
trap and downloaded it (and paid for it).

Me? I'm going to wait until someone puts the damn thing (in HTML) up for
free on some site. Screw copyrights and this restriction of information.
I'm not bold enough to do this, but I'm sure someone is (or has
anonymity).

But perhaps jim.hyslop@leitch.com was just saying the standard public
"obey copyrights at all costs" line, or just replying this fact for the
hell of it.

Maybe someone could post diffs from the last draft (CD2?) to the final?
That wouldn't be copyright infringement, right?

And perhaps this will actually be approved by a moderator. Yeah right. It
would be out of protocol here, wouldn't fit in. Ah well. Off to see if
anyone has the standard on their site yet...

--
blarggflash.net | Gargantua Blargg | http://www.flash.net/~blargg/

[ Moderator's note:  The article concerns the C++ standard and
  contains no personal attacks, so I'm approving it. -sdc ]


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In article <199809271959.OAA18968@centurion.flash.net>, Gargantua Blargg
<blargg@flash.net> writes
>Well? Share you time and work with us all. Post the damn thing! It'll
>probably be 1/3 the size of the original Acro-crap version.

Please do no such thing.  It has been a long uphill struggle to get as
far as making it available at reasonable price.  Start publicly breaking
copyright and we are going to have just about the whole of ISO and the
National Bodies howling for blood.  That matters because some of us want
the principle extended so that far more of the standards we should have
available become so at an acceptable price.

What you should all be arguing for is the ability to cut and paste
because that is desirable, a restriction on hardcopy I can live with.
At the moment they seem to have it the wrong way round.



Francis Glassborow      Chair of Association of C & C++ Users
64 Southfield Rd
Oxford OX4 1PA          +44(0)1865 246490
All opinions are mine and do not represent those of any organisation
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Can anyone explain why the C++ standard is 2.72 megabytes and costs $18,
while the C standard is 17.74 megabytes and costs $135? The C++ standard
is 776 pages long. Is the C standard anything like 5061 pages long?

--

Ciao,
Paul
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Paul D. DeRocco wrote:

> Can anyone explain why the C++ standard is 2.72 megabytes and costs $18,
> while the C standard is 17.74 megabytes and costs $135? The C++ standard
> is 776 pages long. Is the C standard anything like 5061 pages long?

My copy of the C9X draft standard is 1405635 bytes and 550 pages long. I
don't know about C89, but I'd expect it to be shorter.


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I have just learned that ANSI is making copies of the C++ standard
available in machine-readable form over the web.

For more information, visit http://webstore.ansi.org/ansidocstore/default.asp


--
    Andrew Koenig
    ark@research.att.com
    http://www.research.att.com/info/ark



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On 23 Sep 1998 16:38:10 GMT, Andrew Koenig <ark@research.att.com> wrote:

>I have just learned that ANSI is making copies of the C++ standard
>available in machine-readable form over the web.
>
>For more information, visit http://webstore.ansi.org/ansidocstore/default.asp

Is this "Document Number: ISO/IEC 14882-1998".  It's got a funny sounding
name, so I just want to make sure this is the one.


--
----------------------------------
Siemel B. Naran (sbnaran@uiuc.edu)
----------------------------------

[ moderator's note: Yes, it's the right one. -sdc ]


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