In article <199701140606.WAA09879@taumet.eng.sun.com>,
Steve Clamage <stephen.clamage@Eng> wrote:
>reversed that policy a few months ago. Current ISO policy is the
>same as traditional ISO policy: non-members can purchase drafts
>and standards through channels, but cannot obtain them otherwise.

In that case, what is the proper procedure for ordering the
current draft?  I know some instructions were posted last week,
but then some people said that they couldn't order it that way,
or that they got older versions, so I want to make sure
that I have the correct information before I try to order.

So, in order to participate in the latest call for public comments,
who do I call (or email?), what exactly do I ask for,
and how long do I have to make comments?

 - Frank

--
Frank "Shaggy" Barrus: shaggy@csh.rit.edu; http://www.csh.rit.edu/~shaggy
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"Eugene Radchenko" <genie@org.chem.msu.su> writes:

|>  Recent developments got me wondering: who holds the copyright on the C++
|>  standard and working documents (drafts) for it?
|>  Is it ANSI? ISO? US government? govts of ISO countries? ANSI management?
|>  members of C++ WG?

ISO and/or ANSI.  In addition, parts of the standard are derived from
other copyrighted works, used by permission.

|>  Am I wrong to believe that in US any work done by govt. agency or under
|>  govt. contract is public domain?

I don't know, but since I don't think that ANSI is a government agency,
at least in this sense, it doesn't matter.

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Steve Clamage (stephen.clamage@Eng) wrote:
: The situation, as I have tried to explain, is the changes in policy
: at ISO and ANSI over time. About 3 months ago, the top level of ISO
: issued a ruling that draft and final standards were not to be made
                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: freely available except to members of the committees that produced
: them. (Non-members may purchase them.) ANSI and X3 do not wish to
: disregard that rule unilaterally, because rules can be changed
: without resorting to civil disobedience or anarchy.

Reviewing the FAQ, CD2 is dated 12/96 and DIS is expected 12/97.  With
the careful attention to terms in the FAQ, did ISO rule that the DIS
could not be made freely available and not cover CD2?  Or, does
"draft standard" cover CD2, even with this groups careful attention to
not using the term standard with the term committee draft?  With three
meetings scheduled between now and DIS, there could even be a CD3, but
let's hope not.

John
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Recent developments got me wondering: who holds the copyright on the C++
standard and working documents (drafts) for it?
Is it ANSI? ISO? US government? govts of ISO countries? ANSI management?
members of C++ WG?
Am I wrong to believe that in US any work done by govt. agency or under
govt. contract is public domain?

Best regards  Genie

--
#########################################################
Eugene V. Radchenko              Research associate, Computer Chemistry
E-mail: genie@org.chem.msu.su                   Fax: +7-(095)939-0290
Ordinary mail:     Chair of Organic Chemistry, Department of Chemistry,
                         Moscow State University, 119899 Moscow, Russia
===================================================
    Axiom:        Any non-trivial program contains some bugs
    Corollary:    If a program has no bugs, it is useless



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Eugene Radchenko wrote:
>
> Recent developments got me wondering: who holds the copyright on the C++
> standard and working documents (drafts) for it?
> Is it ANSI? ISO? US government? govts of ISO countries? ANSI management?
> members of C++ WG?

ANSI and ISO will hold the copyrights.

> Am I wrong to believe that in US any work done by govt. agency or under
> govt. contract is public domain?

I'm not sure, but neither ANSI nor ISO is a govt. agency or working
under a government contract. ANSI is a subsidiary of CBEMA, the Computer
Business Equipment Manufacturers Association.
 -- Pete


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In article 4EB6@oec.com, Pete Becker <pbecker@oec.com> writes:
>Eugene Radchenko wrote:
>>
>> Recent developments got me wondering: who holds the copyright on the C++
>> standard and working documents (drafts) for it?
>> Is it ANSI? ISO? US government? govts of ISO countries? ANSI management?
>> members of C++ WG?
>
>ANSI and ISO will hold the copyrights.

To the final standard. The copyright status of the drafts is a bit
vague, but doesn't matter unless someone wants to make a court case
out of it. I can't imagine why any sane person would want to make
a court case out of it.

>> Am I wrong to believe that in US any work done by govt. agency or under
>> govt. contract is public domain?

Not public domain, but no royalties can be charged. But that is irrelevant
for this situation.

>I'm not sure, but neither ANSI nor ISO is a govt. agency or working
>under a government contract.

That is correct. They are not government agencies.

> ANSI is a subsidiary of CBEMA, the Computer
>Business Equipment Manufacturers Association.

The organization formerly known as CBEMA is now known as ITIC, the
Information Technology Industry Council.
---
Steve Clamage, stephen.clamage@eng.sun.com
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In article <32D5068B.4EB6@oec.com>, Pete Becker  <pbecker@oec.com> wrote:
>Eugene Radchenko wrote:
>>
>> Recent developments got me wondering: who holds the copyright on the C++
>> standard and working documents (drafts) for it?
>> Is it ANSI? ISO? US government? govts of ISO countries? ANSI management?
>> members of C++ WG?
>
>ANSI and ISO will hold the copyrights.

They claim this.  I've heard that there's no official document that really
gives them this right.  The standard is authored by individuals, most of
whom are representing their employers (i.e. their contributions would
presumably be considered "works for hire").  So the default copyright would
belong to the collection of companies and private individuals comprising
the committee.  Is there any clause in the ANSI or ISO membership document
that says that they automatically assign copyright of their work to the
standards body?

>> Am I wrong to believe that in US any work done by govt. agency or under
>> govt. contract is public domain?
>
>I'm not sure, but neither ANSI nor ISO is a govt. agency or working
>under a government contract. ANSI is a subsidiary of CBEMA, the Computer
>Business Equipment Manufacturers Association.

But often some of the contributors represent government agencies (in the
early days of X3J13, NIST had an active representative).  Or a company may
participate on a standards committee as part of a gov't contract.  If they
contribute to the document, would this "pollute" it with the restrictions
that apply to such work?

By the way, the editor of the ANSI Common Lisp document got approval from
ANSI to make an HTML version of it and make this available on the web and
for free distribution over the net.  See <A
HREF="http://www.harlequin.com/books/HyperSpec/FrontMatter/index.html">
Common Lisp HyperSpec (TM)</A>.  If the C++ people can arrange the same
deal (I suggest you contact Kent to find out how he worked it out), you can
stop bitching about the price of the standard being a barrier to access.  I
don't know how much ISO involvement will complicate the matter for you.
--
Barry Margolin
BBN Planet, Cambridge, MA
barmar@bbnplanet.com -  Phone (617) 873-3126 - Fax (617) 873-5508
(BBN customers, please call (800) 632-7638 option 1 for support)


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In article 722@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU, fjh@mundook.cs.mu.OZ.AU (Fergus Henderson) writes:
>Barry Margolin <barmar@bbnplanet.com> writes:
>
>>By the way, the editor of the ANSI Common Lisp document got approval from
>>ANSI to make an HTML version of it and make this available on the web and
>>for free distribution over the net.
>
>The ISO Ada 95 standard is also available on the net at
><http://www.adahome.com/rm95>.

The situation, as I have tried to explain, is the changes in policy
at ISO and ANSI over time. About 3 months ago, the top level of ISO
issued a ruling that draft and final standards were not to be made
freely available except to members of the committees that produced
them. (Non-members may purchase them.) ANSI and X3 do not wish to
disregard that rule unilaterally, because rules can be changed
without resorting to civil disobedience or anarchy.

Considerable opposition to this policy exists within ISO, ANSI,
and X3. The policy has been under active discussion at recent
ISO meetings. Technical committees generally (but not unanimously)
want the results of their work to be freely available. Everyone that
I know in the hierarchy (which doesn't include the top levels) is in
favor of making at least the public-comment drafts freely available.

It is quite possible that the ruling will eventually be reversed or
modified. I have been assured that no such change can occur before
the end of the C++ public-comment period, March 18, because of the
time it takes to make and change policy.

Short answer: The wheels are turning, maybe electronic versions of
standards will become freely available some day, but the C++ public-
comment version cannot be made available that way as things stand now.
---
Steve Clamage, stephen.clamage@eng.sun.com




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