Topic: If C++ is the Question...
Author: ckt@best.com (Chris Thomas)
Date: 1995/07/30 Raw View
In article <3vf3d9$qdu@News1.mcs.net>, jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim Fleming)
wrote:
> In article <ckt-2807950422250001@ckt.vip.best.com>, ckt@best.com says...
> >
> >In article <3v4t0h$843@News1.mcs.net>, jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim Fleming)
> >wrote a somewhat interesting troll:
> >
> >> If C++ is the question...what was the answer...???
> >>
> >> If C++ is the answer...then why doesn't Plan 9 use C++...???
> >>
> >> BTW...Plan 9 was recently released by AT&T Bell Labs...
> >> One of the Plan 9 people is Dennis Ritchie...
> >> For those too young to know who Dennis is...
> >> He is the R in K&R...
> >>
> >> BTW...several people have told me that Borland invented C++...
> >> ...for the record...I doubt if Borland would want to
> >> take credit for that mess...besides when Borland looked
> >> to the future, they developed Delphi, based on Pascal...
> >> ...once again, C++ was not selected even though the
> >> C++ zealots will tell you it is the answer for everything...
> >
> >C++ is a tool! It's a good tool. It's a better tool than C.
> >(I concede that it suffers from some bloat due to this.)
> >It won't write the program for you- that wasn't the intent.
> >
> >> Let's recap...recent events
> >>
> >> Sun Microsystems
> >> Java developed when C++ was found to be flawed...
> >> see http://java.sun.com
> >
> >And what commercial software is Java used to develop? AFAIK, it's
> >only for Web stuff, or that's at least the way Sun is positioning it.
> >
> @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
>
> This is absolutely not true...
> The introduction via the Web browser (or trojan horse) called
> Hot Java has been a very recent development...
> Members of the Sun development team note very clearly that Java is
> a general purpose language...
>
> BTW...Java was the result of the Personal Digital Assistant Project at
> Sun called First Person...there is a history of Java that can
> be found on (http://java.sun.com)
Yes, my DDJ subscription has since caught up with me. It does
seem like an interesting language, if you don't have piles of
legacy C which must be supported, and if you run a processor
capable of supporting it. I'd sure like to see a PowerPC Mac
version.
> @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
> >> Borland
> >> Delphi based on Pascal
> >
> >Borland is the only PC pascal stronghold, are they not?
> >
> >> Microsoft
> >> Visual Basic is the flagship used by developers
> >
> >That's a misleading half-statement.
>
> @@@@@@@@@@
>
> Do you mean to imply that Microsoft is a strong supportor of C++...???
>
> Does the Microsoft C++ Class Library comply with the ANSI standard???
Who cares? The MFC is low-level gunk required to do anything useful
with Windoze. Microsoft uses std C++ with an RTTI hack.
> @@@@@@@@@@
> >
> >> AT&T Bell Laboratories
> >> Plan 9 released as follow on to UNIX...no C++ to be found
> >
> >The Plan 9 C compiler actually does borrow from C++. It's an
> >interesting variant in itself, though.
> >
> @@@@@@@@@@
>
> What does it borrow...???
>
> By C++ are you referring to the ANSI C extensions of C...called C...
> or are you referring to the OO-like capabilities of C++...???
In fact, I've forgotten exactly what it used. (The important ANSI C
extensions of C came from C++, mostly, and the next C looks even more
like C++) Check it out at one of AT&T's websites (don't know which,
and Netscape will crash if I run it right now...)
> @@@@@@@@@@
> >> NeXT
> >> Purchases Objective C from Stepstone
> >> Sun bases OpenStep on this technology
> >
> >Ah, but this is like saying that the Amiga system software is
> >programmed in Eiffel; it might be, but who cares? It's
> >irrelevant. <PEDANTIC>(No, the Amiga system software isn't based in
> >Eiffel.)</PEDANTIC> Does OpenStep wrap Objective C in C++?
> >(or does it not?)
> >
> @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
>
> Are you suggesting that NeXT has charted a migration path (wrapping)
> to C++...???
No, but apparently Sun has.
> @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
>
> >> Parc Place Systems
> >> Sold C++ division...now focuses on Smalltalk
> >
> >This is not business as usual for that company?
> >
> >> @@@@@@@@@
> >>
> >> I am not sure there is a Pattern here...
> >> Thank God there is a God...and more than one in some cases...:+)
> >> J.C., does any leading edge company use C++...???
> >
> >Apple. IBM. Microsoft uses C++, but they steal all of their "innovations"
> >from Apple, DEC, and NeXT, so they can't rightfully be considered "leading-
> >edge."
> >
> >--
> >Chris Thomas, ckt@best.com
>
> @@@@@@@@@@@@@
>
> Apple...???
>
> OK....let's recap again....
>
> The companies that advocate C++ (especially the OO features)...
>
> Apple
> IBM
> Microsoft
>
> Actually...Apple + IBM = Taligent...
>
> Combining...it looks like Taligent and Microsoft...
>
> ...do these companies support the ANSI Standard features and classes..???
No, Apple + IBM != Taligent. Taligent is seperate.
Taligent is *really* into C++, and they do support the ANSI
Standard features as much as is possible with today's compilers.
I'm not sure it's worth supporting the ANSI standard classes.
The work I've done with them seems to indicate they're incredibly
twisted, and the methods are named so badly it's impossible
to make self-documenting.
--
Chris Thomas, ckt@best.com
Author: jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim Fleming)
Date: 1995/07/31 Raw View
In article <ckt-3007952028120001@ckt.vip.best.com>, ckt@best.com says...
>
>In article <3vf3d9$qdu@News1.mcs.net>, jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim Fleming)
>wrote:
>
>> In article <ckt-2807950422250001@ckt.vip.best.com>, ckt@best.com says...
>> >
>> >In article <3v4t0h$843@News1.mcs.net>, jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim
Fleming)
>> >wrote a somewhat interesting troll:
>> >
>> >> If C++ is the question...what was the answer...???
>> >>
>> >> If C++ is the answer...then why doesn't Plan 9 use C++...???
>> >>
>> >> BTW...Plan 9 was recently released by AT&T Bell Labs...
>> >> One of the Plan 9 people is Dennis Ritchie...
>> >> For those too young to know who Dennis is...
>> >> He is the R in K&R...
>> >>
>> >> BTW...several people have told me that Borland invented C++...
>> >> ...for the record...I doubt if Borland would want to
>> >> take credit for that mess...besides when Borland looked
>> >> to the future, they developed Delphi, based on Pascal...
>> >> ...once again, C++ was not selected even though the
>> >> C++ zealots will tell you it is the answer for everything...
>> >
>> >C++ is a tool! It's a good tool. It's a better tool than C.
>> >(I concede that it suffers from some bloat due to this.)
>> >It won't write the program for you- that wasn't the intent.
>> >
>> >> Let's recap...recent events
>> >>
>> >> Sun Microsystems
>> >> Java developed when C++ was found to be flawed...
>> >> see http://java.sun.com
>> >
>> >And what commercial software is Java used to develop? AFAIK, it's
>> >only for Web stuff, or that's at least the way Sun is positioning it.
>> >
>> @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
>>
>> This is absolutely not true...
>> The introduction via the Web browser (or trojan horse) called
>> Hot Java has been a very recent development...
>> Members of the Sun development team note very clearly that Java is
>> a general purpose language...
>>
>> BTW...Java was the result of the Personal Digital Assistant Project at
>> Sun called First Person...there is a history of Java that can
>> be found on (http://java.sun.com)
>
>Yes, my DDJ subscription has since caught up with me. It does
>seem like an interesting language, if you don't have piles of
>legacy C which must be supported, and if you run a processor
>capable of supporting it. I'd sure like to see a PowerPC Mac
>version.
@@@@@@@@@
Sun is encouraging ports to many platforms...
there are many companies (;-)) doing ports...
hopefully Sun will maintain the standard Java definitions...
I think that Java and Hot Java will help break the ice that
has dead-locked the C++ community for years...
This is what Linux did with UNIX...
The Bell Labs academics can no longer pace the world...
to their advantage...
The U.S. no longer can dictate direction...in software...
New York is no longer the center from which most
software research dollars flow...New York still
controls much of the news media, and therefore
the impressions of the population, but this is
rapidly changing with the Internet...
I was amazed several years ago when a bunch of
New Yorkers claimed that they would be able to
jam System V Release 4 UNIX down everyone's
throats...it did not fly...people now can obtain
information and software from around the planet...
@@@@@@@@@
>
>> @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
>> >> Borland
>> >> Delphi based on Pascal
>> >
>> >Borland is the only PC pascal stronghold, are they not?
>> >
>> >> Microsoft
>> >> Visual Basic is the flagship used by developers
>> >
>> >That's a misleading half-statement.
>>
>> @@@@@@@@@@
>>
>> Do you mean to imply that Microsoft is a strong supportor of C++...???
>>
>> Does the Microsoft C++ Class Library comply with the ANSI standard???
>
>Who cares? The MFC is low-level gunk required to do anything useful
>with Windoze. Microsoft uses std C++ with an RTTI hack.
>
@@@@@@@
Will Microsoft support the proposed ANSI Standard C++ class library...???
@@@@@@@
>> @@@@@@@@@@
>> >
>> >> AT&T Bell Laboratories
>> >> Plan 9 released as follow on to UNIX...no C++ to be
found
>> >
>> >The Plan 9 C compiler actually does borrow from C++. It's an
>> >interesting variant in itself, though.
>> >
>> @@@@@@@@@@
>>
>> What does it borrow...???
>>
>> By C++ are you referring to the ANSI C extensions of C...called C...
>> or are you referring to the OO-like capabilities of C++...???
>
>In fact, I've forgotten exactly what it used. (The important ANSI C
>extensions of C came from C++, mostly, and the next C looks even more
>like C++) Check it out at one of AT&T's websites (don't know which,
>and Netscape will crash if I run it right now...)
@@@@@@
I found some stuff on world.std.com...
of course there are references on www.att.com
BTW...what do you mean the next C...what is wrong with the current one???
@@@@@@
>
>> @@@@@@@@@@
>> >> NeXT
>> >> Purchases Objective C from Stepstone
>> >> Sun bases OpenStep on this technology
>> >
>> >Ah, but this is like saying that the Amiga system software is
>> >programmed in Eiffel; it might be, but who cares? It's
>> >irrelevant. <PEDANTIC>(No, the Amiga system software isn't based in
>> >Eiffel.)</PEDANTIC> Does OpenStep wrap Objective C in C++?
>> >(or does it not?)
>> >
>> @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
>>
>> Are you suggesting that NeXT has charted a migration path (wrapping)
>> to C++...???
>
>No, but apparently Sun has.
@@@@@@@
Do you mean with respect to Java...???
@@@@@@@
>> @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
>>
>> >> Parc Place Systems
>> >> Sold C++ division...now focuses on Smalltalk
>> >
>> >This is not business as usual for that company?
>> >
>> >> @@@@@@@@@
>> >>
>> >> I am not sure there is a Pattern here...
>> >> Thank God there is a God...and more than one in some
cases...:+)
>> >> J.C., does any leading edge company use C++...???
>> >
>> >Apple. IBM. Microsoft uses C++, but they steal all of their
"innovations"
>> >from Apple, DEC, and NeXT, so they can't rightfully be considered
"leading-
>> >edge."
>> >
>> >--
>> >Chris Thomas, ckt@best.com
>>
>> @@@@@@@@@@@@@
>>
>> Apple...???
>>
>> OK....let's recap again....
>>
>> The companies that advocate C++ (especially the OO features)...
>>
>> Apple
>> IBM
>> Microsoft
>>
>> Actually...Apple + IBM = Taligent...
>>
>> Combining...it looks like Taligent and Microsoft...
>>
>> ...do these companies support the ANSI Standard features and classes..???
>
>
>No, Apple + IBM != Taligent. Taligent is seperate.
>Taligent is *really* into C++, and they do support the ANSI
>Standard features as much as is possible with today's compilers.
>
@@@@@@@@@@@
Taligent is very heavy into "marketing"...
...C++ is more of a marketing success than a technical success...
...it is not surprising that Taligent would get
sucked into the C++ movement...
...marketeers seem to like marketing successes...
@@@@@@@@@@@
>I'm not sure it's worth supporting the ANSI standard classes.
>The work I've done with them seems to indicate they're incredibly
>twisted, and the methods are named so badly it's impossible
>to make self-documenting.
>
>--
>Chris Thomas, ckt@best.com
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
It seems to me that the bulk of the proposed ANSI standard resides
in the proposed class library. I originally made the assumption that
this library had years of testing and was designed by experts in OOA
and OOD.
It is interesting to study how the ANSI committee "selected" the current
class library.
I think that it is probably too late to make any major changes to the
class library. It looks like the C++ community is going to have to
live with their proposal.
At this point the goal should probably be to wrap things up as soon
as possible, have as many people sign the standard as possible, and then
move on to new frontiers...
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
--
Jim Fleming /|\ Unir Corporation Unir Technology, Inc.
jrf@tiger.bytes.com / | \ One Naperville Plaza 184 Shuman Blvd. #100
%Techno Cat I / | \ Naperville, IL 60563 Naperville, IL 60563
East End, Tortola |____|___\ 1-708-505-5801 1-800-222-UNIR(8647)
British Virgin Islands__|______ 1-708-305-3277 (FAX) 1-708-305-0600
\__/-------\__/ http:199.3.34.13 telnet: port 5555
Smooth Sailing on Cruising C+@amarans ftp: 199.3.34.12 <-----stargate----+
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\____to the end of the OuterNet_|
Author: tmb@concerto.best.com
Date: 1995/07/31 Raw View
In article <3vf3d9$qdu@News1.mcs.net> jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim Fleming) writes:
| The companies that advocate C++ (especially the OO features)...
These companies follow market trends and demand. They provide C++
interfaces because they perceive that that's where the market is going
and that if they don't, their competitors will snap up market share.
It does not tell you that developers inside those companies believe
that C++ is technically or economically a good choice for developing
software.
Of course, once they are committed to such a path, their marketing
departments have to do everything in their power to make sure that the
software and interfaces they just spent millions of dollars designing
and implementing in C++ gets used. That's why they are "advocating
C++".
Thomas.
Author: halasz@caip.rutgers.edu
Date: 1995/07/31 Raw View
In article <3vhs21$km0@News1.mcs.net>, jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim Fleming) writes
+ ....
+ The U.S. no longer can dictate direction...in software...
+ ....
For national equivalents to ASCII it is too late: we are stuck with "@" in
email addresses, and C has uzed up "[", "\", "]", "^", "{", "|", "}", "~",
and "`" is in the Bourne-shell (but deprecated in the Korn-shell!)
Author: jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim Fleming)
Date: 1995/07/30 Raw View
In article <ckt-2807950422250001@ckt.vip.best.com>, ckt@best.com says...
>
>In article <3v4t0h$843@News1.mcs.net>, jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim Fleming)
>wrote a somewhat interesting troll:
>
>> If C++ is the question...what was the answer...???
>>
>> If C++ is the answer...then why doesn't Plan 9 use C++...???
>>
>> BTW...Plan 9 was recently released by AT&T Bell Labs...
>> One of the Plan 9 people is Dennis Ritchie...
>> For those too young to know who Dennis is...
>> He is the R in K&R...
>>
>> BTW...several people have told me that Borland invented C++...
>> ...for the record...I doubt if Borland would want to
>> take credit for that mess...besides when Borland looked
>> to the future, they developed Delphi, based on Pascal...
>> ...once again, C++ was not selected even though the
>> C++ zealots will tell you it is the answer for everything...
>
>C++ is a tool! It's a good tool. It's a better tool than C.
>(I concede that it suffers from some bloat due to this.)
>It won't write the program for you- that wasn't the intent.
>
>> Let's recap...recent events
>>
>> Sun Microsystems
>> Java developed when C++ was found to be flawed...
>> see http://java.sun.com
>
>And what commercial software is Java used to develop? AFAIK, it's
>only for Web stuff, or that's at least the way Sun is positioning it.
>
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
This is absolutely not true...
The introduction via the Web browser (or trojan horse) called
Hot Java has been a very recent development...
Members of the Sun development team note very clearly that Java is
a general purpose language...
BTW...Java was the result of the Personal Digital Assistant Project at
Sun called First Person...there is a history of Java that can
be found on (http://java.sun.com)
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
>> Borland
>> Delphi based on Pascal
>
>Borland is the only PC pascal stronghold, are they not?
>
>> Microsoft
>> Visual Basic is the flagship used by developers
>
>That's a misleading half-statement.
@@@@@@@@@@
Do you mean to imply that Microsoft is a strong supportor of C++...???
Does the Microsoft C++ Class Library comply with the ANSI standard???
@@@@@@@@@@
>
>> AT&T Bell Laboratories
>> Plan 9 released as follow on to UNIX...no C++ to be found
>
>The Plan 9 C compiler actually does borrow from C++. It's an
>interesting variant in itself, though.
>
@@@@@@@@@@
What does it borrow...???
By C++ are you referring to the ANSI C extensions of C...called C...
or are you referring to the OO-like capabilities of C++...???
@@@@@@@@@@
>> NeXT
>> Purchases Objective C from Stepstone
>> Sun bases OpenStep on this technology
>
>Ah, but this is like saying that the Amiga system software is
>programmed in Eiffel; it might be, but who cares? It's
>irrelevant. <PEDANTIC>(No, the Amiga system software isn't based in
>Eiffel.)</PEDANTIC> Does OpenStep wrap Objective C in C++?
>(or does it not?)
>
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Are you suggesting that NeXT has charted a migration path (wrapping)
to C++...???
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
>> Parc Place Systems
>> Sold C++ division...now focuses on Smalltalk
>
>This is not business as usual for that company?
>
>> @@@@@@@@@
>>
>> I am not sure there is a Pattern here...
>> Thank God there is a God...and more than one in some cases...:+)
>> J.C., does any leading edge company use C++...???
>
>Apple. IBM. Microsoft uses C++, but they steal all of their "innovations"
>from Apple, DEC, and NeXT, so they can't rightfully be considered "leading-
>edge."
>
>--
>Chris Thomas, ckt@best.com
@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Apple...???
OK....let's recap again....
The companies that advocate C++ (especially the OO features)...
Apple
IBM
Microsoft
Actually...Apple + IBM = Taligent...
Combining...it looks like Taligent and Microsoft...
...do these companies support the ANSI Standard features and classes..???
--
Jim Fleming /|\ Unir Corporation Unir Technology, Inc.
jrf@tiger.bytes.com / | \ One Naperville Plaza 184 Shuman Blvd. #100
%Techno Cat I / | \ Naperville, IL 60563 Naperville, IL 60563
East End, Tortola |____|___\ 1-708-505-5801 1-800-222-UNIR(8647)
British Virgin Islands__|______ 1-708-305-3277 (FAX) 1-708-305-0600
\__/-------\__/ http:199.3.34.13 telnet: port 5555
Smooth Sailing on Cruising C+@amarans ftp: 199.3.34.12 <-----stargate----+
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\____to the end of the OuterNet_|
Author: jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim Fleming)
Date: 1995/07/30 Raw View
In article <3v83l4$5m9@euas20.eua.ericsson.se>, euafjo@eua.ericsson.se
says...
>
>In article <3v4t0h$843@News1.mcs.net>, jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim Fleming)
writes:
>>
>>If C++ is the question...what was the answer...???
>
>C++?
>
>>Let's recap...recent events
>
>> Borland
>> Delphi based on Pascal
>>
>> Microsoft
>> Visual Basic is the flagship used by developers
>
>Well, since Microsoft didn't have an own Object Pascal compiler like
>Borland had, I guess they used VC++ to create VB! (Ie. I doubt VB could
>compile it self and at the same time keep the performance up.)
>
>--- F. Jonsson
>
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Yes...it seems unlikely that VB can be used to develop VB...
(as an aside)
it appears that Delphi was used to develop Delphi...
On the subject of VB developed using VC++...
Does anyone know if the VB development is object-oriented...???
If so...
this must be viewed as a major C++ development that
has used C++ for OO development...if this is the case,
then reuse of the VB VC++ classes must be very high...
is that what is in the Microsoft Foundation Class Library?
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
--
Jim Fleming /|\ Unir Corporation Unir Technology, Inc.
jrf@tiger.bytes.com / | \ One Naperville Plaza 184 Shuman Blvd. #100
%Techno Cat I / | \ Naperville, IL 60563 Naperville, IL 60563
East End, Tortola |____|___\ 1-708-505-5801 1-800-222-UNIR(8647)
British Virgin Islands__|______ 1-708-305-3277 (FAX) 1-708-305-0600
\__/-------\__/ http:199.3.34.13 telnet: port 5555
Smooth Sailing on Cruising C+@amarans ftp: 199.3.34.12 <-----stargate----+
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\____to the end of the OuterNet_|
Author: euafjo@eua.ericsson.se (Fredrik Jonsson)
Date: 1995/07/27 Raw View
In article <3v4t0h$843@News1.mcs.net>, jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim Fleming) writes:
>
>If C++ is the question...what was the answer...???
C++?
>Let's recap...recent events
> Borland
> Delphi based on Pascal
>
> Microsoft
> Visual Basic is the flagship used by developers
Well, since Microsoft didn't have an own Object Pascal compiler like
Borland had, I guess they used VC++ to create VB! (Ie. I doubt VB could
compile it self and at the same time keep the performance up.)
--- F. Jonsson
Author: imp@village.org (Warner Losh)
Date: 1995/07/27 Raw View
In article <3v4t0h$843@news1.mcs.net>,
Jim Fleming <jim.fleming@bytes.com> wrote:
> Parc Place Systems
> Sold C++ division...now focuses on Smalltalk
First of all, it is ParcPlace Systems, not Parc Place Systems.
Second, the C++ division they sold was a division that built a GUI
toolkit and a GUI builder in C++. It did not build C++ compilers.
Third, ParcPlace purchased that group from Solbourne to hedge their
bets in case Smalltalk didn't take off. It has, so they no longer
need to hedge.
Forth, ParcPlace invented Smalltalk (more precicely, the inventors of
smalltalk formed ParcPlace as a spinoff from Xerox PARC), so it had no
vested interest in seeing C++ succeed, quite the opposite.
Fifth, the GUI builder market is very competitive. The division, as
you call it, might have been sold due to its non-standard technology
failing to gain market acceptance, language being a non-issue.
I was until recently a member of the OI group (the division, as you
called it) since they were owned by Solbourne, so I know the ins and
outs of the goings on here.
So don't use ParcPlace's sale as fodder for this silly diatribe. It
completely misrepresents the facts of the matter. I wonder if the
other points you brough up also show a similar misrepresentation?
Warner
P.S. followups redirected to comp.lang.c++, since this has nothing to
do with the standards process.
--
Warner Losh "VMS Forever" home: imp@village.org
Cyberspace Development, Inc work: imp@marketplace.com
Makers of TIA, The Internet Adapter. http://marketplace.com/
Author: ckt@best.com (Chris Thomas)
Date: 1995/07/28 Raw View
In article <3v4t0h$843@News1.mcs.net>, jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim Fleming)
wrote a somewhat interesting troll:
> If C++ is the question...what was the answer...???
>
> If C++ is the answer...then why doesn't Plan 9 use C++...???
>
> BTW...Plan 9 was recently released by AT&T Bell Labs...
> One of the Plan 9 people is Dennis Ritchie...
> For those too young to know who Dennis is...
> He is the R in K&R...
>
> BTW...several people have told me that Borland invented C++...
> ...for the record...I doubt if Borland would want to
> take credit for that mess...besides when Borland looked
> to the future, they developed Delphi, based on Pascal...
> ...once again, C++ was not selected even though the
> C++ zealots will tell you it is the answer for everything...
C++ is a tool! It's a good tool. It's a better tool than C.
(I concede that it suffers from some bloat due to this.)
It won't write the program for you- that wasn't the intent.
> Let's recap...recent events
>
> Sun Microsystems
> Java developed when C++ was found to be flawed...
> see http://java.sun.com
And what commercial software is Java used to develop? AFAIK, it's
only for Web stuff, or that's at least the way Sun is positioning it.
> Borland
> Delphi based on Pascal
Borland is the only PC pascal stronghold, are they not?
> Microsoft
> Visual Basic is the flagship used by developers
That's a misleading half-statement.
> AT&T Bell Laboratories
> Plan 9 released as follow on to UNIX...no C++ to be found
The Plan 9 C compiler actually does borrow from C++. It's an
interesting variant in itself, though.
> NeXT
> Purchases Objective C from Stepstone
> Sun bases OpenStep on this technology
Ah, but this is like saying that the Amiga system software is
programmed in Eiffel; it might be, but who cares? It's
irrelevant. <PEDANTIC>(No, the Amiga system software isn't based in
Eiffel.)</PEDANTIC> Does OpenStep wrap Objective C in C++?
(or does it not?)
> Parc Place Systems
> Sold C++ division...now focuses on Smalltalk
This is not business as usual for that company?
> @@@@@@@@@
>
> I am not sure there is a Pattern here...
> Thank God there is a God...and more than one in some cases...:+)
> J.C., does any leading edge company use C++...???
Apple. IBM. Microsoft uses C++, but they steal all of their "innovations"
from Apple, DEC, and NeXT, so they can't rightfully be considered "leading-
edge."
--
Chris Thomas, ckt@best.com
Author: jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim Fleming)
Date: 1995/07/26 Raw View
If C++ is the question...what was the answer...???
If C++ is the answer...then why doesn't Plan 9 use C++...???
BTW...Plan 9 was recently released by AT&T Bell Labs...
One of the Plan 9 people is Dennis Ritchie...
For those too young to know who Dennis is...
He is the R in K&R...
BTW...several people have told me that Borland invented C++...
...for the record...I doubt if Borland would want to
take credit for that mess...besides when Borland looked
to the future, they developed Delphi, based on Pascal...
...once again, C++ was not selected even though the
C++ zealots will tell you it is the answer for everything...
Let's recap...recent events
Sun Microsystems
Java developed when C++ was found to be flawed...
see http://java.sun.com
Borland
Delphi based on Pascal
Microsoft
Visual Basic is the flagship used by developers
AT&T Bell Laboratories
Plan 9 released as follow on to UNIX...no C++ to be found
NeXT
Purchases Objective C from Stepstone
Sun bases OpenStep on this technology
Parc Place Systems
Sold C++ division...now focuses on Smalltalk
@@@@@@@@@
I am not sure there is a Pattern here...
Thank God there is a God...and more than one in some cases...:+)
J.C., does any leading edge company use C++...???
--
Jim Fleming /|\ Unir Corporation Unir Technology, Inc.
jrf@tiger.bytes.com / | \ One Naperville Plaza 184 Shuman Blvd. #100
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\____to the end of the OuterNet_|
Author: rob_j@sfsu.edu
Date: 1995/07/27 Raw View
In article <3v4t0h$843@News1.mcs.net>,
jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim Fleming) wrote:
>BTW...several people have told me that Borland invented C++...
> ...for the record...I doubt if Borland would want to
> take credit for that mess...besides when Borland looked
> to the future, they developed Delphi, based on Pascal...
> ...once again, C++ was not selected even though the
> C++ zealots will tell you it is the answer for everything...
The algorithms are the answer to evrything. C++, or whatever langauge you
choose is mereley a tool to implement you algorithm. Really, you can't get
too hung up on any one langauge. What's popular now will likely not be so
down the road.
BTW...Bjarne Stroustrup is credited with developing C++, also at Bell Labs.
>I am not sure there is a Pattern here...
> Thank God there is a God...and more than one in some cases...:+)
> J.C., does any leading edge company use C++...???
I can't mention specific companies off hand that use C++, but I know that
when I flip through programming job offers here in the Bay Area, a good 80%
want you to have C++ skills. That's good enough reason to learn it. But for
the reasons stated above, you gotta remain flexible when it comes to
programming langauge (or platform for that matter).
____________
Rob
SF State U
CS Dept.
____________