In article <D9ptu1.2nI@research.att.com> bs@research.att.com (Bjarne Stroustrup <9758-26353> 0112760) writes:
>
> Mr. Fleming applies the odious techniques of slander, ``the
> big lie,'' hate mongering, and demonization of opponents.
> He relies on people's tendency to believe that ``where there
> is smoke there must be a fire'' so that a fraction - even a
> tiny fraction - of his accusations must be true. This is not
> the case.

Yes, he does apply these techniques, but he is quite poor at them.
I have not seen any evidence that anybody believes anything he says
on any subject.  For instance, nobody has approached Novell and demanded
that we drop out of the C++ conspiracy, or that C+@ be included in the
UnixWare SDK, or anything of that ilk.

A while back on sci.math there were some Dartmouth people who were
concerned that Archimedes Plutonium's rather creative rantings would
reflect poorly on Dartmouth (since his account is there) and cost them
admissions.  Somehow I doubt this has happened.  The career of Andrew Wiles
(of FLT fame, whom Plutonium slanders on a regular and Fleming-like basis)
also seems to have survived intact.

> I must admit that I don't really know how to do deal with
> behavior as extreme as Mr. Fleming's, but one must devised
> or else Mr. Fleming has found the way to destroy the net as
> a forum for rational discussion of technical matters.

One characteristic of "the net" is that it is open to everyone, no
matter how uninformed or crackpotted they are:  one big Speakers'
Corner.  If the rest of the net is incapable of identifying and ignoring
these people, then it is doomed anyway.

--
Jonathan Schilling Novell Systems Group  jls@summit.novell.com

Jim Fleming (jim.fleming@bytes.com) wrote:

: Have you been able to confirm that the original posting came from
: Mr. Bjarne Stroustrup of AT&T Bell Laboratories?

No, and as a matter of fact, I haven't been able to confirm the
following either:

- Whether Jim Fleming perhaps owns AT&T himself, and is paid
  by a Japanese sect to destroy the U.S. underwear industry.

- Whether the quoted posting really came from mr. Jim Fleming

- Whether mr. Fleming exists at all

- Whether AT&T exists at all.

- Whether mr. Fleming is, at present, treated for severy paranoid
  psychosis.

Once you figure out how to read and interpret mr. Fleming's rambling,
they make some sense. A most useful conjecture here is:

- Every accusation mr. Fleming does not respond to is true (in
  his own eyes).

Reading between the lines, and looking at what points mr. Fleming
did _not_ 'discuss' I conclude that he in fact knows that his
picture of the world is not correct, and that his posting behaviour
is immoral and ineffective.

So we are, steadily, making progress here.

Let's see what he will not discuss next.

JP

In article <3s65rb$g5f@highway.leidenuniv.nl>,
Jan-Peter de Ruiter <ruiter@ruls41.LeidenUniv.nl> wrote:
>Let's see what he will not discuss next.

One can hope that he'll take the lead from The Seatle Grunge Rock
Blues and start "alternative" postings where, like the band that
refused to do live versions of the songs they had, he would refuse to
post his versions of the facts.  Heck, we could even have Jim Fleming
unplugged: Where he could refuse to do accustical versions of the
posts that refused to do in the first place.

Nah, that would be asking too much :-)

Warner

P.S.  Please note followups.
--
Warner Losh  "VMS Forever"  home: imp@village.org
Cyberspace Development, Inc   work: imp@marketplace.com
Makers of TIA, The Internet Adapter.  http://marketplace.com/

In article <3s25hd$8n9@highway.LeidenUniv.nl>, ruiter@ruls41.LeidenUniv.nl
says...
>
>Jim Fleming (jim.fleming@bytes.com) wrote:
>
>: FOR THE RECORD ONLY:
>
>: I will respond to this and other postings when appropriate. As many of
you
>: know, recently "someone" using the name Bjarne Stroustrup and posting
from
>: an account registered to research.att,com posted a message that has
>: resulted in an enormous number of unsolicited e-mail messages to be sent
>: to myself as well as others. Also, callers (most, unwilling to leave
their
>: names) have called our companies as well as a various other companies to
>: respond to the request for support from the poster using the name Bjarne
>: Stroustrup. Because of serious 800 number "jamming" and obscene calls and
>: messages, Unir's 800 numbers have been disabled. These are *facts* that
>: can be easily verified and which are being documented and reported to the
>: proper authorities.
>
>I suggest you respond, point by point, to the posting by mr. Stroustrup,
>or else shut up.
>
>Jan
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Have you been able to confirm that the original posting came from
Mr. Bjarne Stroustrup of AT&T Bell Laboratories?

As I have indicated in my previous posting, because of inaccuracies and
inconsistencies in the posting with previous postings, I am concerned about
the authenticity of the posting. I am trying to confirm the origin and
authenticity via other channels.

To give you an example of an inconsistency, earlier this year someone
using the name Bjarne Stroustrup and posting from bs@research.att.com
posted a note in which they claim to not know me. At the time, I thought
that this was odd, but I assumed that it was intended to characterize
me as some *nobody* that should be ignored.

Now, the recent note claims that I confronted Bjarne Stroustrup last
year at Object Expo with a business proposition and furthermore claims
that my company's attorney(s) sent him a letter. How does that jive with
the fact that earlier this year, the poster claims to not know who I am.

As I have mentioned, I did NOT attend Object Expo last year and my
companies' attorneys have never sent Bjarne Stroustrup a letter.

I am not sure what purpose such inaccurate statements serve other than to
"create an impression" that I or my company has tried to engage Bjarne
Stroustrup in business opportunities and "the poster" is trying to
give people the impression that he "resists" getting involved in such
matters. The only audience that I can see that would be interested in
that, might be, AT&T Bell Laboratories, who has rather strict policies
regarding the external business dealings of their employees.

Despite these strict policies, it is clear that AT&T Bell Laboratories
does not seem to have much control over the Internet postings of their
employees. It is hard for me to believe that AT&T Bell Laboratories would
allow one of their high visibility employees to post a message asking
people to SPAM accounts with chain letters, etc. As noted above, the
results of that call for action have been significant, and the proper
AT&T executives are being notified.

--
Jim Fleming            /|\      Unir Corporation       Unir Technology, Inc.
jrf@tiger.bytes.com  /  | \     One Naperville Plaza   184 Shuman Blvd. #100
%Techno Cat I       /   |  \    Naperville, IL 60563   Naperville, IL 60563
East End, Tortola  |____|___\   1-708-505-5801         1-800-222-UNIR(8647)
British Virgin Islands__|______ 1-708-305-3277 (FAX)   1-708-305-0600
                 \__/-------\__/       http:199.3.34.13 telnet: port 5555
Smooth Sailing on Cruising C+@amarans  ftp: 199.3.34.12 <-----stargate----+
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\____to the end of the OuterNet_|

In article <1995Jun15.185339.10901@rcmcon.com>, rmartin@rcmcon.com says...
>
>ichudov@star89.galstar.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:
>
>>This desire to stop one of the netters to post his opinions [no matter
>>how bizarre they are] is not very respectable. Yes, Fleming is funny
>>and sometimes behaves like a jerk [and a jerk he is].
>
>It's not his being a Jerk that is the problem.  If he were simply a
>jerk about C++ it wouln't be an issue.  But, unfortunately, he makes
>quite a few personal attacks on underserving people.  He is a master
>of innuendo and slur.  Some of what he writes approaches libel.
>
>Now, if this occurred in isolated cases, fine.  We all do stupid
>things sometimes.  But Flemming's insistence upon repeated slur,
>gossip, innuendo and propoganda seem to indicate that he is not simply
>having a bad day.  It seems likely that he is actually trying to
>destroy certain peoples reputations (and with them their livelihood)
>by undermining their credibility with lies, half-truths and innuendo.
>
>This cannot, and should not, be tolerated.
>
>--
>Robert Martin       | Design Consulting   | Training courses offered:
>Object Mentor Assoc.| rmartin@oma.com     |   Object Oriented Analysis
>2080 Cranbrook Rd.  | Tel: (708) 918-1004 |   Object Oriented Design
>Green Oaks IL 60048 | Fax: (708) 918-1023 |   C++

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

FOR THE RECORD ONLY:

I will respond to this and other postings when appropriate. As many of you
know, recently "someone" using the name Bjarne Stroustrup and posting from
an account registered to research.att,com posted a message that has
resulted in an enormous number of unsolicited e-mail messages to be sent
to myself as well as others. Also, callers (most, unwilling to leave their
names) have called our companies as well as a various other companies to
respond to the request for support from the poster using the name Bjarne
Stroustrup. Because of serious 800 number "jamming" and obscene calls and
messages, Unir's 800 numbers have been disabled. These are *facts* that
can be easily verified and which are being documented and reported to the
proper authorities.

Please note that I have *carefully* indicated that the posting appears to
have come from Bjarne Stroustrup of AT&T Bell Laboratories. Because the
posting contained several inaccurate statements (which are easily verified),
it is hard to imagine that Bjarne Stroutrup wrote the message. If Bjarne
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
did post the message, then one has to wonder why he would post inaccurate
statements and what his purpose in posting those would be.

One thing is certain, as a result of the recent posting, that apparently
came from AT&T, several small businesses have been severely impacted and
my ability to work and earn a modest living has been jeopardized. The
proper executives at AT&T are being notified of our concerns.

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

BTW...(see underline above)

I did not attend Object Expo last year and I have never made any business
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
proposition(s) to Bjarne. Also, Unir's attorneys have never sent Bjarne
                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Stroustrup a letter. Also, Bjarne Stroustrup had willingly agreed to
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
participate in Object Expo in 1993 as part of the joint Unir/AT&T exhibit
and Bjarne had sent materials (including his 8x10 picture) which Unir
still has. My call to Mr. Brian Kernighan was regarding Bjarne's last
minute decision to withdraw from the show which AT&T had agreed to support.
These are all *facts* which are easily proven via extensive documentation.

Also...I do not consider Mr. Bjarne Stroustrup to be the *ONLY* "developer
of the C++ Programming Language. Recently, people claiming to represent
the ANSI C++ Committee have indicated that Mr. Stroustrup is NOT a member
of the committee and has no vote. No one seems to be able to verify whether
he is a member or not and the ANSI process is now intertwined in the ISO
process to such a degree that individual, corporate and country boundaries
are very blurred. While this might appear to be beneficial, it makes it
very difficult to make sure that the people, companies and countries are
following the proper procedures. It also makes it convenient for people to
fragment voting, to change venues, and to generally control the process
without ever having to take responsibility for any specific action.
                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
It has been apparent for many years that *many people* are responsible for
the development of The C++ Programming Language. Some of these people have
elected to be members of the ANSI and/or ISO committees and some have not
(even though they appear to participate in the process). Some of these
people have obviously put a lot of work into promoting the C++ language as
a national and international standard and will hopefully be given the
proper credit for their work. Hopefully, all people that have helped to
promote the language as a standard will take responsibility for their
actions.

When I refer to "The C++ Developers", that is not intended to single out
an individual. For those not familiar with English, the "s" at the end
of the word Developer implies more than one person....:)

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
--
Jim Fleming            /|\      Unir Corporation       Unir Technology, Inc.
jrf@tiger.bytes.com  /  | \     One Naperville Plaza   184 Shuman Blvd. #100
%Techno Cat I       /   |  \    Naperville, IL 60563   Naperville, IL 60563
East End, Tortola  |____|___\   1-708-505-5801         1-800-222-UNIR(8647)
British Virgin Islands__|______ 1-708-305-3277 (FAX)   1-708-305-0600
                 \__/-------\__/       http:199.3.34.13 telnet: port 5555
Smooth Sailing on Cruising C+@amarans  ftp: 199.3.34.12 <-----stargate----+
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\____to the end of the OuterNet_|

Jim Fleming (jim.fleming@bytes.com) wrote:

: FOR THE RECORD ONLY:

: I will respond to this and other postings when appropriate. As many of you
: know, recently "someone" using the name Bjarne Stroustrup and posting from
: an account registered to research.att,com posted a message that has
: resulted in an enormous number of unsolicited e-mail messages to be sent
: to myself as well as others. Also, callers (most, unwilling to leave their
: names) have called our companies as well as a various other companies to
: respond to the request for support from the poster using the name Bjarne
: Stroustrup. Because of serious 800 number "jamming" and obscene calls and
: messages, Unir's 800 numbers have been disabled. These are *facts* that
: can be easily verified and which are being documented and reported to the
: proper authorities.

I suggest you respond, point by point, to the posting by mr. Stroustrup,
or else shut up.

Jan

I (and probably many other people) wish you would just go away and
leave us alone.

You have made it very clear you don't like C++, that's your right.
Nobody is forcing you to use C++, and anyone is perfectly free to go
and write his own language.

I find it very useful for the problems I have to work on, and it is
certainly a reasonable choice.  There is no such thing as a perfect
language, and no language is right for every application. But for what
I work on, it works.

You have wasted a lot of our time with your personal attacks and
insults.  Now, we have work to do.

I forgot to include who I was addressing in my previous post.
Obviously, it was Mr. Fleming.

jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim Fleming) writes:

>In article <3qref6$441@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM>, timd@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM
>says...
>>
>>In article <3qr7b9$h71@News1.mcs.com>,
>>Jim Fleming <jim.fleming@bytes.com> wrote:
>>>

Bunches and bunches of NON-C++ related stuff deleted.

Jim,

You once wrote that this group was for the discussion of C++ and that
other things should be discussed in other places.  Try It.

John Morey - jmorey@crl.com

In article <jhalpinD9q8FM.3C1@netcom.com>,
   jhalpin@netcom.com (Joe Halpin) wrote:
>In article <D9ptu1.2nI@research.att.com> bs@research.att.com (Bjarne
Stroustrup <9758-26353> 0112760) writes:
>
>[commendably restrained comments deleted]
>
>>
>> Maybe the right approach is the one recommended or chain
>> letters and inappropriate junk mailings: return the message
>> containing insults, slander, or innuendo to ``postmaster''
>> at the originating site (in this case, postmaster@bytes.com).
>> I'll try that for a while and see what happens. If enough
>> others do the same maybe we will be allowed to get back to
>> technical issues.
>>
>>  - Bjarne
>>
>
>I would like to express my complete agreement with this, and suggest
>we all follow this suggestion.

Agreed, but note: I tried it two months ago and such mail gets forwarded to
Mr. Fleming.  If you want to do this, you might also cc his feed supplier,
postmaster@mcs.com -- and cc karl@mcs.com as well while you're at it, since
in April he wrote me to say that MCS would only do something about bytes.com
if presented with a court order (one wonders whether that position would
change given a sufficient volume of mail).


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Herb Sutter                 2228 Urwin, Ste 102         voice (416) 618-0184
Connected Object Solutions  Oakville ON Canada L6L 2T2    fax (905) 847-6019

bs@research.att.com (Bjarne Stroustrup <9758-26353> 0112760)
wrote:
>Jim Fleming:

>

> Various suggestions have been made about what to do in
> such cases in general, and with Mr. Fleming in
particular.
> In most cases, ignoring flames works reasonably well;
the
> flamers tire or pick new victims. Mr. Fleming, however,
> seems to have an infinite supply of time and venom.
Once
> people have seen a few of his messages they tire of
him,
> ignore him, or place him in their kill files. This
> unfortunately leaves the field open for him and a
casual
> reader can take him seriously for a short while.
>
> Thus, Mr. Fleming is far from harmless. He is a
vicious,
> hateful, bully who must be opposed.
>
> I must admit that I don't really know how to do deal
with
> behavior as extreme as Mr. Fleming's, but one must
devised
> or else Mr. Fleming has found the way to destroy the
net as
> a forum for rational discussion of technical matters.
>
> Ignoring him has been tried; it didn't work.
>
> Maybe the right approach is the one recommended or
chain
> letters and inappropriate junk mailings: return the
message
> containing insults, slander, or innuendo to
``postmaster''
> at the originating site (in this case,
postmaster@bytes.com).
> I'll try that for a while and see what happens. If
enough
> others do the same maybe we will be allowed to get back
to
> technical issues.
>
>  - Bjarne
>

I agree with the opinions expressed above. However I feel
that Fleming's methods, though despicable, seem to work
fairly well and in retrospect seem rational enough.

Bjarne Stroustrup <9758-26353> 0112760 (bs@research.att.com) wrote:

[EXCELLENT post removed]

Jim, looks like you are out of business now, doesn't it? ;-)

(Applauding loudly and #include <Icouldnotresist>)

--
Lars Marowsky-Bree   Voice: +49-571-63663   PGP-key avail. via server
HomePage: http://www.teuto.de/~lmb     Mail: lmb@pointer.in-minden.de
PGP fingerprint:     CF FC 3A F0 86 F1 D3 EB  79 8A CF 75 4F 4C 81 DF
>             Microsoft - Disasters at your fingertips              <

In article <jykdil@bmtech.demon.co.uk> Scott Wheeler <scottw@bmtech.demon.co.uk> writes:

>Bjarne Stroustrop:

>  [long article on Jim Fleming omitted]

>While Jim's articles are slanderous, I doubt if they are actionable in
>practice as he appears to be insane. It is also probably pointless
>asking for action from the postmaster at bytes.com, as that seems to be
>a bookshop with which he is associated. Unfortunately I've discarded
>the messages I recvd from him - can you tell us what system bytes.com
>connects to for its mail feed?

bytes.com seems to buy it's connectivity from MCS Net.  And as an amusing side
note, not even the bookstore that he connects through has any books on C+@
(according to a phone call I made 6/7/95 20:43).  :)

   Maybe a slew of replies like
   "this is not a comp.lang.C++ topic,  please go away"
   would do something..acknowledging the words inside
   the C@T posting seems to provide fuel.

---------------------------

In article <3qspmn$nol@News1.mcs.com>,
Jim Fleming <jim.fleming@bytes.com> wrote:
>In article <3qref6$441@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM>, timd@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM
>says...
>>
>>[...]
>>His sour grapes lead to a deficit in sanity...[...]
>
>As some of the world moves to Cyberspace, and now that countries are being
>eclipsed by companies, we are at the dawn of a new age. [...]

>[...MUCH non-C++ gobbledeegook deleted...]

I stand corrected...I obviously had the cause and effect confused.

>Hopefully, when these issues pop up, people will be able to use the Internet
>to discuss some of the pros and cons and maybe the Internet will be used
>to debate the issues and to "vote" on the future. [...]

But not in c++/object newsgroups.

>the "vote" is taken, Wilbur and Martha's votes are not done by "proxy"
>by some global corporation. (BTW, Wilbur and Martha will be cruising in
>Caribbean and will care less about the vote because they are "set for life")

Well, give Wilbur and Martha a kiss for me!  ;)

(Say, you better get that prescription refilled!)

:-t

--
      "Groove is in the heart..."

In article <MATT.95Jun4223325@godzilla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU>,
 <matt@physics.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>In article <3qtsm5$320@news.wwa.com> "Robert C. Martin" <rmartin@oma.com> writes:
>
>[...]
>One of the silliest things about Fleming's posts is the way he acts [...]

You said it.  At first, I just thought he was opinionated.  I revise
my opinion now.


-t


--
      "Groove is in the heart..."

Jim Fleming:

 > My point is very simple...C++ is not the end all be all...C+@ is not the
 > end all be all...neither is Smalltalk, Eiffel or JAVA...my point is that
 > in the case of C++, given the advantages that the developers had both
 > academically, and financially...do they really need to stomp all over
 > everything in the industry and try to crush the life out of anything
 > that does not conform to the C++ religion...???...are they really that
 > insecure about their creation that everything and everyone with the
 > slightest alternative view gets attacked by a gang of C++ thugs...???

Lies.

 There are no ``C++ thugs.'' There never were.

 Nobody associated with C++ ``stomp all over everything
 in the industry and try to rush the life out of anything
 that does not conform.'' There never were.

 There is no ``C++ religion.'' There never were.

 > One would think that eventually the egos of the C++ developers would
 > be satiated. It appears that the developers have an infinite appetite
 > for more and more power, recognition, awards, visibility, and money.
 > In most cases this could be tolerated because our society is now full
 > of people all striving for their "15 minutes of fame". In the case of
 > C++, this is especially difficult to watch because these same developers
 > have spent years stomping on their fellow men and women in an effort
 > to achieve what they clearly must think is the "ultimate solution".

Lies and vicious innuendo.

 I know of nobody in the C++ community with ``an infinite
 appetite for more and more power, recognition, awards,
 visibility, and money.''

 Nobody in the C++ community ``have spent years stomping
 on their fellow men and women.''

 Nobody thinks or have ever suggested that C++ or anything
 like it is an ``ultimate solution.''

 > I am sure that some people will say that the solution to this problem
 > is not to stomp on the C++ developers. After watching the injustices
 > inflicted by the C++ developers for the past 10 years, I have decided
 > that the only way to slow them down is to stomp on them. Unfortunately,
 > when you are dealing with people like Hitler or Saddam Hussein there
 > are not many options. Do I like this solution, NO! Do I feel that there
 > are any other choices, NO! Am I willing to listen to other people's
 > solutions...YES!...

Lies and vicious innuendo.

 Hitler was a mass murderer, Saddam Hussein still is.
 Mr. Fleming is not dealing with those dictators.

 No ``injustices [have been] inflicted by the C++ developers''

Mr. Fleming claims the right to ``stomp on the C++ developers.''

 In my opinion, nothing gives an individual the right to
 persecute individuals or groups with lies, slander, and
 innuendo.





Who is Jim Fleming and why is he saying such nasty things about me?

For the last three months there has hardly been a morning where
I didn't find messages grossly insulting my work, my colleagues,
my place of work, my native country, the standards group I am
a member of, etc., when I read the news. These messages more often
than not contain strong assertions of lack of professional integrity,
immoral behavior, and outright crimes. Often, in a single day, there
are dozens such messages in comp.lang.c++, comp.std.c++, comp.object.

These messages are all posted by Jim Fleming. By now, Mr. Fleming has
posted about two megabytes of flames. In addition, Mr. Fleming sends
private email of a similar nature to me and others who post information
and opinions favorable to C++.

The messages are filled with lies, accusations, conspiracy theories,
insulting explanations of what postings by others ``really says,''
that are are all false.

The messages are also written in a tone that implies knowledge of
grave wrong-doing by a variety of individuals and organizations which,
as far as I can tell, is utter fiction.

Even when repeatedly challenged to do so in public, Mr. Fleming never
substantiates his claims or back his ccusations up with facts. He can't,
because his claims and accusations have no basis in reality.

Having watched the messages fly by for three months now, I am convinced
that no facts or rational arguments will affect Mr. Fleming's behavior,
but I would nevertheless like to state a few facts and opinions.



Who is Mr. Fleming? What is he trying to achieve?


Despite the volume of Mr. Fleming's postings I know very little
about him:

 Mr. Fleming is or was the president (and owner?) of a firm
 called UNIR. According to one poster the UNIR corporation was
 disbanded for non-payment of fees by the state of Illinois,
 where it was incorporated.

 UNIR was - unsuccessfully it seems - trying to sell a product
 called C+@ based on some technology licensed from AT&T.
 Apparently, that license expired.

 Apparently, Mr. Fleming worked for a Bell Labs development
 organization near Chicago at some time.

 I know of no contribution by Mr. Fleming to the literature
 or the state of the art of programming, programming languages,
 system design, etc.

 In my opinion, Mr. Fleming has not (in this forum or any other
 that I am acquainted with) demonstrated technical ability in
 the areas of programming, programming languages, system design,
 etc., that would convince anyone to take his opinions on those
 topics seriously. His postings are unsupported statements of
 personal opinion laced with accusations insult and innuendo.

 My personal experience with Mr. Fleming and his company is
 very limited:

  (1) A couple of years ago, a secretary from UNIR
  contacted several members of technical staff at AT&T
  Bell Labs associated with C++ and suggested they could
  perform a valuable service to AT&T and the future of
  programming by attending a trade show (I forget which)
  to display information about C++. What was not made clear
  was that the booth was not an AT&T booth and that C++
  was to be presented as the ``before/old'' way with C+@ as
  the ``after/new'' way of doing things. Once that became
  clear, the C++ people naturally declined. For starters,
  I - and most other C++ people contacted - had never
  heard of C+@.

  Next Mr. Fleming phoned me personally and suggested
  that it was my duty as an AT&T employee to advertise
  his product. I told him that I was not in the habit of
  selling products in trade show booths. Further, what
  he told me about his product didn't convince me that
  it was in my interest or AT&T's that I should go around
  advertising C+@ as the superior successor to C++.
  From his description, I failed to see how C+@ was superior,
  and the languages seemed unrelated - even the subsets
  of C that C++ and C+@ accept appeared to be quite different.

  Next Mr. Fleming contacted my department head, Brian
  Kernighan, and demanded that he (Brian) order me to
  do booth duty for UNIR/C+@. Mr. Fleming was politely and
  firmly told that ``this is not the way things are done
  around here.''

  (2) Last year, Mr. Fleming walked up to me after a
  keynote talk I gave at Object Expo and lectured me on
  what a wonderful business opportunity UNIR/C+@ was.
  I hardly said a word, but politely pointed out that
  I wasn't interested in business opportunities.

  (3) Sometime last year, my management received a letter
  from UNIR's lawyers threatening me or any other AT&T Bell
  Labs employee associated with C++ with a lawsuit should we
  ever express any opinion on C+@. This surprised me a bit,
  because I have never been threatened with a lawsuit before
  (or later) and I am not in the habit of making comments on
  other people's languages. I especially try to avoid
  commenting about languages I have found no reason to
  learn well enough to make technical comments on anyway.

 Since this is the total direct contact between me and Mr. Fleming,
 I conclude that Mr. Fleming has no personal knowledge of me or
 my work that isn't shared by people who have attended my talks
 or read my articles or books.

 Mr. Fleming's statements about my aims, personal behavior,
 morals, etc., are pure conjecture and say much more about
 Mr. Fleming than about me.


What is Mr. Fleming trying to achieve?

 When Jim Fleming first started ranting against C++, AT&T,
 Bell Labs, me, the ANSI/ISO C++ standards committee, etc.,
 I thought it was just an extreme example of commercial
 sleaze, an attempt to promote a product by attempting
 to discredit a perceived competitive product and the people
 and organizations associated with it. After all, Mr Fleming
 was the president of a small company trying to sell a
 language/system claimed to be object-oriented and C-based.
 Attempts to promote one language by demonizing another may
 not be nice, but are not unheard of.

 However, Mr. Fleming proceeded to post megabytes of extreme
 insults against individuals and groups, innuendo, accusations
 of felonious actions, appeals to xenophobia, etc. He never
 substantiated claims or presented technical information. The
 logical structure of most of his messages is ``have you stopped
 beating your wife?'' ``you are a crook and all your statements
 are lies'' or ``when you say X, your words really mean Y''
 where Y is something quite nasty. This is not rational
 commercial behavior. In fact, it is not rational at all.

 Furthermore, Mr. Fleming doesn't appear to have a language
 product to sell and maybe not even a company to sell it
 (assuming the information about the state of Illinois
 dissolving UNIR is correct).

 Clearly, Mr. Fleming is trying to bring various individuals
 and organizations into disrepute: AT&T, AT&T Bell Labs in general
 and the computer science research organization in Murray Hill
 in particular, C++, the C++ standards process, people using C++
 in general and me in particular. I find these attempts rather
 nasty, certainly immoral, and probably actionable under US law.

 Mr. Fleming seems consumed with hatred towards AT&T or at least
 parts of AT&T. I have no knowledge of anything that I or anyone
 else associated with C++ within AT&T have done that would give
 Mr. Fleming cause for such extreme dislike. Certainly, the picture
 he paints of Bell Labs doesn't match my experience.

 Mr. Fleming seems to like C+@ and dislike C++. However, Mr.
 Fleming seems to be spending more time peddling conspiracy
 theories about C++ than working with or promoting C+@.

 In some postings, Mr. Fleming claims to be protecting the
 American taxpayers against ``Danish pornography,'' fighting
 for freedom of speech and liberty (and hinting that those
 are unique attributes of the USA), and calling to arms against
 conspiracies like those of Hitler, the genocide, Bosnia, etc.
 I cannot make any sense of those postings, and I fail to see
 any connection to C++. They are most insulting and disturbing
 to many people (including me), though.

 Mr. Fleming has posted dozens and probably even hundreds of
 messages suggesting improper dealings in the ANSI/ISO C++
 committees. The committees operate under the rules of ANSI
 and ISO (respectively). These rules are not set by the C++
 committee members but governed by national and international
 law. All meetings are open to the public. Documents and
 membership lists are available according to ANSI and ISO
 rules. The work is done properly, according to the rules,
 reasonably competently, and in a timely fashion. Nobody but
 Mr. Fleming has ever suggested otherwise - and Mr. Fleming
 hasn't even bothered to acquaint himself with the basic rules
 of national and international standardization or the basic
 facts about the C++ committees. I completely fail to see what
 interest Mr. Fleming could have in the C++ standard committee
 - especially as he has never shown any interest in the technical
 aspects of C++.

 I still can't fathom what Mr. Fleming is trying to achieve.
 Any rational aims I can think of would be severely compromised
 by his postings.


Apart from that, what I think of Mr. Fleming's postings?

 I am no fan of conspiracy theories, and Mr. Fleming's are
 more ludicrous than most.

 I find Mr. Fleming's appeals to xenophobia dangerous and immoral.

 I find Mr. Fleming's attempts to cast doubts about the motives
 and integrity of anyone posting facts or opinions he doesn't
 like appalling.

 I think Mr. Fleming's unwillingness to provide information
 about his aims, failure to be specific about his accusations,
 and refusal to answer straight questions about C+@, UNIR, etc.,
 devious in light of the kind of information he consistently
 demands of other posters - even when the information he asks
 for is publicly available and easy to obtain. For example,
 Mr. Fleming must have asked ``who is n the ANSI C++ committee?''
 and ``are YOU on the ANSI C++ committee?'' a hundred times.
  The membership list is available from ANSI.

 Mr. Fleming typically refers to ``we'' as if he was part of a
 group of likeminded people. I have seen no evidence of that
 and don't believe such a group exists. I think Mr. Fleming
 is all alone wasting his days posting his weird messages.

 I think that Mr. Fleming's postings amount to attempted
 character assassination of me, and to a lesser extent of
 others. If successful, this would be actionable under US law
 because it would interfere with my/our ability to work in
 my/our chosen profession.

 I think Mr. Fleming's postings disrupt discourse, lower the
 level of discourse, drive away sensible people, and encourage
 ``copycat'' flames and personal attacks.

 Mr. Fleming deliberately confuses issues, and complains about
 issues in ways that are mutually contradictory. For example,
 I posted information about the availability of the public
 review version of the C++ standards draft, and Mr. Fleming
 suggested that it was just some private version of no official
 standing. When Andrew Koenig pointed out that the version
 posted definitely was the version officially used for the
 ANSI public review, Mr. Fleming complained that the public
 hadn't had a chance to comment before the draft was released
 for comments.

 Had anyone stood up in a meeting - or in a series of meetings
 - and ranted in the way Mr. Fleming has in comp.*, even a
 congregation of saints would have been outraged and evicted
 him for disruptive anti-social behavior.

 Mr. Fleming applies the odious techniques of slander, ``the
 big lie,'' hate mongering, and demonization of opponents.
 He relies on people's tendency to believe that ``where there
 is smoke there must be a fire'' so that a fraction - even a
 tiny fraction - of his accusations must be true. This is not
 the case.

 Should anyone think that I'm exaggerating, I'm sure someone
 would be willing to supply a few hundreds of Mr. Fleming's
 flames to support my statements.

Why do I bother writing this?

 I'm sure the mature and sensible thing is to simply ignore
 Mr. Fleming's rantings. It is very hard to answer assertions
 of the form ``Have you stopped beating your wife?'' and
 ``you are a crook and all you say is a lie!'' However, I'm
 not a saint nor a perfect stoic philosopher, so after three
 months I have had enough, and want to say my bit. Posting
 this might not be wise, and will almost certainly trigger
 more flames, but it makes me feel better.

 Mr. Fleming is an extreme example of someone who disrupts
 technical discussions by injecting his messages on unrelated
 topic into threads. His habit of following up any messages
 posted by individuals he seems to dislike with repeated
 accusations amounts to harassment aimed at forcing these
 people off the net.

 Various suggestions have been made about what to do in
 such cases in general, and with Mr. Fleming in particular.
 In most cases, ignoring flames works reasonably well; the
 flamers tire or pick new victims. Mr. Fleming, however,
 seems to have an infinite supply of time and venom. Once
 people have seen a few of his messages they tire of him,
 ignore him, or place him in their kill files. This
 unfortunately leaves the field open for him and a casual
 reader can take him seriously for a short while.

 Thus, Mr. Fleming is far from harmless. He is a vicious,
 hateful, bully who must be opposed.

 I must admit that I don't really know how to do deal with
 behavior as extreme as Mr. Fleming's, but one must devised
 or else Mr. Fleming has found the way to destroy the net as
 a forum for rational discussion of technical matters.

 Ignoring him has been tried; it didn't work.

 Maybe the right approach is the one recommended or chain
 letters and inappropriate junk mailings: return the message
 containing insults, slander, or innuendo to ``postmaster''
 at the originating site (in this case, postmaster@bytes.com).
 I'll try that for a while and see what happens. If enough
 others do the same maybe we will be allowed to get back to
 technical issues.

  - Bjarne

In article <D9ptu1.2nI@research.att.com> bs@research.att.com (Bjarne Stroustrup <9758-26353> 0112760) writes:

[commendably restrained comments deleted]

>
> Maybe the right approach is the one recommended or chain
> letters and inappropriate junk mailings: return the message
> containing insults, slander, or innuendo to ``postmaster''
> at the originating site (in this case, postmaster@bytes.com).
> I'll try that for a while and see what happens. If enough
> others do the same maybe we will be allowed to get back to
> technical issues.
>
>  - Bjarne
>

I would like to express my complete agreement with this, and suggest
we all follow this suggestion.

Joe
--
Joe Halpin
jhalpin@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

In article <D9ptu1.2nI@research.att.com> bs@research.att.com (Bjarne Stroustrup <9758-26353> 0112760) writes:


    Bjarne>  Ignoring him has been tried; it didn't work.

    Bjarne>  Maybe the right approach is the one recommended or
    Bjarne> chain letters and inappropriate junk mailings: return the
    Bjarne> message containing insults, slander, or innuendo to
    Bjarne> ``postmaster'' at the originating site (in this case,
    Bjarne> postmaster@bytes.com).  I'll try that for a while and see
    Bjarne> what happens. If enough others do the same maybe we will
    Bjarne> be allowed to get back to technical issues.

Bravo. Count me in. We could also perhaps cc: Mr. Fleming when mailing
his postmaster.

-rn


--
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| Ricardo Nassif |||||||
| There is grandeur in |||||||||||||||||||||||||||| rn@moe.shore.net |||||
| this view of life.   |||||||||||||||||||||||||||| rcn@bluesky.net ||||||
|    --C. Darwin, 1859 ||<URL:http://www.bluesky.net/rcn/FrontDoor.html>||
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| Fax: 1 617 586 9432 ||

Bjarne Stroustrop:

  [long article on Jim Fleming omitted]

While Jim's articles are slanderous, I doubt if they are actionable in
practice as he appears to be insane. It is also probably pointless
asking for action from the postmaster at bytes.com, as that seems to be
a bookshop with which he is associated. Unfortunately I've discarded
the messages I recvd from him - can you tell us what system bytes.com
connects to for its mail feed?

Scott

In article <3qref6$441@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM>, timd@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM
says...
>
>In article <3qr7b9$h71@News1.mcs.com>,
>Jim Fleming <jim.fleming@bytes.com> wrote:
>>
>>@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
>>
>>Also, it would have been interesting to see what would have happened if
>>people had been given a "choice". As a friend of mine from the old Soviet
>>Union once told me, the "best" bread was the *only bread* and everyone
>>learned to "eat it" even though it was stale.
>
>Wow!  I guess C++ is supposed to be stale bread?
>
>>As a side note, during my many years in and around AT&T Bell Labs [...]
>>"AT&T Bell Laboratories is the closest thing to the Soviet Union that he
>>had encountered, since leaving". [...]
>>
>>He pointed out that at AT&T Bell Labs and in the old Soviet Union...
>
>[don't you love these kinds of analogies!?!!?]
>
>>       1. They never make a mistake [...]
>>       2. The majority of *people* are paid well [sic] [...]
>>       3. [...]
>>       4. [...]
>>       5. [...] only certain people are "chosen"[...]
>[uh-oh!]
>>       6. [...]
>>       7. [...]
>>       8. [...]
>>       9. There is a total lack of concern about the outside world. [...]
>>       10. [...]
>>       11. Certain selected individuals are promoted [...]
>>       12. [...]
>
>Wow.  Twelve whole points about the oppressive atmosphere at ATT.
>One guy I used to work with wrote pages of the same kind of complaint
>at PRC...sometimes I still take it out and read it for a laugh...
>it's not that he didn't hae some valid points, but, well, he wasn't
>very popular and he didn't understand why...I liked him at first, but
>in the end I was glad to see him go...
>
>His sour grapes lead to a deficit in sanity...he let it eat
>at him...it clouded his judgement so that he was heavily biased against
>things that he perceived as company mandates...he fixated on it day
>in and day out...sure there were some elements of unfairness on the
>job, some seemingly two-facedness, preferences and cliques...I guess
>in that since all big companies--all big organizations--are like the
>former Soviet Union, huh?
>
>I hope your disdane for C++ is not based on your hate of AT&T...such
>a diatribe as you have provided, though, makes one wonder...
>
>-t

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

As some of the world moves to Cyberspace, and now that countries are being
eclipsed by companies, we are at the dawn of a new age. People should
carefully evaluate the situation and recognize that individual companies
can exert enough force on countries to have those countries do whatever
they please.

As companies become global, they can exert indirect force on other
countries by using their clout in one region to vote their wishes in
certain world forums. As technology moves forward and as we enter the
brave new world of a "wired society", it is unclear whether governments
will be able to "control" or influence companies that are large enough
to dominate the planet. The first war in Cyberspace will likely be fought
by companies and not countries.

In many cases, the planet Earth has been organized based on the fact that
"countries" have an equal status in certain world organizations. In some
cases a country of 1,000 people could have one equal vote along with a
country of 1,000,000 people. It is unclear whether this is fair or wise
when one looks at the entire planet as a whole.

As Cyberspace breaks down boundaries between countries, we have a situation
where countries could be formed solely for the purpose of influencing the
flow of information. In many cases these "new" countries could be formed
by companies that would like to move up in status with respect to society.

Countries (and geographic regions of the planet) are now moving to a point
where they can start to "market" their advantages. Via facilties like the
Internet, a country could "advertise" that they provide some unique
advantage and "citizens" of one country could "migrate" to another simply
by changing their "domain name".

We have already seen examples of this fluid kind of chaos where the Internet
did not play a large part. One example that comes to mind is the health
care system in Canada. Many people are aware that Canadians are provided
extensive health care benfits by their government which also has very
liberal immigration policies. It should not be surprising that people from
"other" parts of the world will have their friends and relatives in Canada
"sign them up" so that they can receive some critical life saving operation.
I have spent a substantial amount of time in Canada (building sailboats)
and Canadians have told me that people regularly arrive from other countries
to use their friend's health card to receive treatment.

As the Internet plays a larger part in our "wired society", we will begin
to see "loop-holes" created by companies. Countries have very little
chance of stopping these companies. If countries *do* try to stop these
companies, the companies will be able to find another geographic site that
will host their "loop-holes" and countries will find that they lose revenue
or intellectual standing in the community as a result of their hard-line
approach.

In some cases, a small (or large) group of people could assemble on the
Internet and create their own "country" with very little in the way of
geographic base. Maybe their Internet servers sit in a small closet on
the top of a mountain in Tibet with a satellite dish linking them to the
rest of the world. This group could claim "country status" and most people
in the world would not travel to Tibet to see how big the country is (as
if that mattered).

Rather than a country, this group might be better off politically and
financially if they formed a church instead of a country. If that was the
case, they could put their Internet server anywhere in the United States
and the citizens of the U.S. would bend over backwards to give them every
tax advantage and special concession known to man. They could even produce
software, sell it for a profit (or is it prophet), and not pay taxes on the
sales.

Rather than a church or country, this group might be better off creating
an educational institution. They could conduct classes, grant degrees,
develop software, sell the software, and claim substantial tax advantages
because the government of their country grants educational institutions
special concessions.

We are rapidly approaching the day when someone or some company will be
able to broadcast onto the Internet the following message. "Register your
domain in the United Domains of the Internet (UDI). Enjoy tax-free
operation, freedom from copyright and censorship laws, FREE health care
provided by the Canadian government, a strong religious support group
(with direct links to Italy and Israel), FREE access to international
repositories of software, documentation and other intellectual property,
online "bartering" system using Cybercash and immune from all government
involvement, guaranteed anonymity and an unlimited number of "infobots"
to handle any war in Cyberspace that the UDI may encounter....sign up
now and receive a FREE Olympic Pin with the UDI flag..."

What are countries going to do if their citizens say, "Hey Martha, have
you seen this, I just have to push this button on this here home page
and we will be "set for life"...we are moving to the UDI and we do not
have to leave the comforts of our home here in the U.S. This is sponsored
by TT&A and they are going to give us free long distance phone service
and unlimited local calls for 6 months. They will guarantee that we go
to heaven and have made sure that we have reservations for the "best"
cabin on the next cruise ship leaving Miami and bound for St. Martin...
...how can we go wrong...???"

"Martha...what do you think?...should I push this button on the home
page and "switch" our citizenship from the United States of America to
the United Domains of the Internet...???...What do you think Martha...??
how can we lose...it says here that they will also allow us to gamble
in real-time via video links to Atlantic City and Las Vegas...we can
buy lottery tickets for any lottery in the world...we can vote in any
election in the world and they will make sure that we are a registered
voter and that we vote "early and often"...how can we go wrong...???...

"OH yes Martha, one more thing...they will give us a FREE credit card and
will allow us to transfer ALL of our assets to an account which they
maintain and which earns TAX FREE interest...they will make sure that
our estate is not probated and will optimize a living trust so that when
we die our kids will automatically become citizens of the UDI...It says
here that they want us to convert all of our cash to Cybercash and that
they will immediately increase the value by 10%...if we sign up in the
next 15 minutes...Martha...what do you think...should I "push the button"..?

Wilbur never did get Martha's attention...she was busy buying things via
the cable TV and the Domain Shopping Club...she was smiling because she
had "pushed the button" several months ago and Wilbur did not even know
it...he was already "set for life", he was already guaranteed that he was
going to go to heaven...all of his assets had already been transferred to
the UDI...now all he had to do was sit back and watch golf matches or the
Olympics and live the rest of his life knowing that he never had to think
for himself again...:)

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

The Internet is a powerful tool. Information including software is the
new oil that flows through this global pipe-line. There is going to be
a new world order when it comes to control of information and information
"haves" and "have nots".

You can bury your heads in the sand with respect to side-shows like C++.
You will probably get away with that. You will not be able to bury your
heads when issues like cyber-cash, cyber-companies, cyber-countries,
cyber-churches, cyber-elections, etc. begin to dominate the scene.

Hopefully, when these issues pop up, people will be able to use the Internet
to discuss some of the pros and cons and maybe the Internet will be used
to debate the issues and to "vote" on the future. Just make sure that when
the "vote" is taken, Wilbur and Martha's votes are not done by "proxy"
by some global corporation. (BTW, Wilbur and Martha will be cruising in
Caribbean and will care less about the vote because they are "set for life")


--
Jim Fleming            /|\      Unir Corporation       Unir Technology, Inc.
jrf@tiger.bytes.com  /  | \     One Naperville Plaza   184 Shuman Blvd. #100
%Techno Cat I       /   |  \    Naperville, IL 60563   Naperville, IL 60563
East End, Tortola  |____|___\   1-708-505-5801         1-800-222-UNIR(8647)
British Virgin Islands__|______ 1-708-305-3277 (FAX)   1-708-305-0600
                 \__/-------\__/       http:199.3.34.13 telnet: port 5555
Smooth Sailing on Cruising C+@amarans  ftp: 199.3.34.12 <-----stargate----+
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\____to the end of the OuterNet_|

In article <3qnlo5$hfn@ornews.intel.com>, pdlogan@ornews.intel.com says...
>
>Robert C. Martin (rmartin@oma.com) wrote:
>
>: But that does not mean that if BL had produced a language of poor
>: quality, everybody would have used it.  Rather, I think that if C++
>: had turned out to be half-baked or have other problems, the industry
>: would not have adopted it with the enthusiasm that it now shows.
>
>It is debatable whether or not C++ is of "poor quality".
>
>However from my experience with C++ since 1988, I have observed
>a lot of adoption without a deep understanding of the language.
>I cannot say whether these adopters would have done differently
>had they done more of an assessment.
>
>--
>Patrick_D_Logan@ccm.jf.intel.com

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Also, it would have been interesting to see what would have happened if
people had been given a "choice". As a friend of mine from the old Soviet
Union once told me, the "best" bread was the *only bread* and everyone
learned to "eat it" even though it was stale.

As a side note, during my many years in and around AT&T Bell Labs I had
the pleasure of meeting and working with several people from the old Soviet
Union. In most cases these people came to America *before* it was cool to
come here.

Since I had never had the opportunity to visit the old Soviet Union, I used
to ask my friends, "what is it like?". I used to ask, "If it is so bad why
don't people take up arms and shovels and revolt?".

I will never forget that one of my Russian friends said to me...
"AT&T Bell Laboratories is the closest thing to the Soviet Union that he
had encountered, since leaving". At first, I was shocked and this did not
make sense. After he explained some more it became clear how he was drawing
the comparison.

He pointed out that at AT&T Bell Labs and in the old Soviet Union...

 1. They never make a mistake and if they do they NEVER admit it.
 2. The majority of *people* are paid well and are comfortable with
  respect to the rest of society, therefore there is no
  reason to "revolt". Most people fall into some "role" and
  spend most of their life living in quiet desperation waiting
  to retire. Employment is guaranteed and incentives to
  achieve are removed.
 3. There is always a party-line and it rarely reflects the truth...
  if someone leaves they are always doomed to live a hard
  life outside of the "system" and a party-line is developed
  about why that person could not make it in the "system".
 4. The internal news media (like Bell Labs News) reports one-sided
  propaganda and is not a source of news but rather a tool
  used by management to "reward" selected individuals and
  to steer society in certain directions according to the
  "party-line".
 5. There is a heavy emphasis placed on academics but there is
  a highly controlled system whereby only certain people
  are "chosen", no matter what their abilities or
  contributions. In most cases, the origin of one's diploma
  means 10 times more than the person's abilities.
 6. There is an elaborate "cast" system. Nepotism and other forms
  of favoritism are commmon and complex social programs like
  affirmative action are emphasized but the bottom line
  result is that only "chosen" individuals become part of
  the inner research circles.
 7. There is a facade put on for the outside world that looks in
  and sees what appears to be a healthy and happy place even
  though human rights violations could be common, and are
  never seen. Tourists see a one sided view.
 8. People are given incredible resources (both financial and
  physical) and there is never any mention of how much easier
  it might be for a researcher to produce some result given
  the level of support. The playing field is never level and
  any effort to level the playing field is met with harsh
  resistance.
 9. There is a total lack of concern about the outside world. The
  party-line is that Bell Labs is the best and there is rarely
  a comparison done of similar technologies. If something
  fails it is because of AT&T marketing and if something
  succeeds then technical excellence must have been the
  reason.
 10. The internal "party" rewards its own members and people are
  given more awards when they defend the party, especially
  in situations where the party is wrong. Of course defending
  the party is not hard...because it is NEVER wrong...
 11. Certain selected individuals are promoted for "external
  consumption" so that the rest of the world thinks that
  everything is wonderful and life behind the "walls" is
  a bed of roses.
 12. Lastly, there is an answer for everything and the answer is
  always skewed to support the "party" and the company and
  no one challenges the answer because they will be exhiled
  to Cyberia.

It is interesting to note that with the growth of the Internet, Cyberia
could become a very nice place. If a person had a choice of living in
Cyberia (on the net) and living under the opressive system imposed by
a place like Bell Labs, they might easily choose Cyberia.

Cyberia can end up being a place filled with interesting people with
interesting ideas. The discussions and interchanges can be open and can
result in true progress being made (for example Linux). The additional
financial rewards and the superb facilities of a place like Bell Labs
are often now not enough for a person to trade their intellectual freedom
for the opressive environment.

I am sure that many people have analyzed the fall of the Sovet Union
and have a good understanding of how an oppressive society can no longer
attract "the best" people. The people no longer want to live the "big
lie" if they can go other places on the planet and recover their freedom
to think. I believe that we will see this same sort of trend at places
like AT&T Bell Laboratories. Why would anyone want to live in that
oppressive socialistic atmosphere when they can live in Cyberia and have
an open mind and freely discuss ideas, technologies, discoveries, etc.

This new world order of information interchange can only happen because
the cost of communication has been lowered. It will be interesting to
watch as companies like AT&T try to reverse this phenomenon. If you look
at their various press releases on internet developments you will see
a common theme of "how do we make people pay for information"...
 (see http://www.att.com)
...when the barrier to communicate is raised (like the Berlin Wall)
then companies like AT&T can once again regain control (like the old
Soviet Union) and they can make it very difficult for...

 ...the "True Voices" to be heard...

--
Jim Fleming            /|\      Unir Corporation       Unir Technology, Inc.
jrf@tiger.bytes.com  /  | \     One Naperville Plaza   184 Shuman Blvd. #100
%Techno Cat I       /   |  \    Naperville, IL 60563   Naperville, IL 60563
East End, Tortola  |____|___\   1-708-505-5801         1-800-222-UNIR(8647)
British Virgin Islands__|______ 1-708-305-3277 (FAX)   1-708-305-0600
                 \__/-------\__/       http:199.3.34.13 telnet: port 5555
Smooth Sailing on Cruising C+@amarans  ftp: 199.3.34.12 <-----stargate----+
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\____to the end of the OuterNet_|

Robert Martin       | Design Consulting   | Training courses offered:
Object Mentor Assoc.| rmartin@rcmcon.com  |   Object Oriented Analysis
2080 Cranbrook Rd.  | Tel: (708) 918-1004 |   Object Oriented Design
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jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim Fleming) wrote:
>Also, it would have been interesting to see what would have happened if
>people had been given a "choice". As a friend of mine from the old Soviet
>Union once told me, the "best" bread was the *only bread* and everyone
>learned to "eat it" even though it was stale.

What makes you think that people didn't have a choice.  As early as
1989 I was put into the position of choosing between Objective_C
and C++.  Smalltalk has been around for awhile too.  There were
choices.

Robert Martin       | Design Consulting   | Training courses offered:
Object Mentor Assoc.| rmartin@rcmcon.com  |   Object Oriented Analysis
2080 Cranbrook Rd.  | Tel: (708) 918-1004 |   Object Oriented Design
Green Oaks IL 60048 | Fax: (708) 918-1023 |   C++

In article <3qtsm5$320@news.wwa.com> "Robert C. Martin" <rmartin@oma.com> writes:

> What makes you think that people didn't have a choice.  As early as
> 1989 I was put into the position of choosing between Objective_C
> and C++.  Smalltalk has been around for awhile too.  There were
> choices.

Lots of choices; there still are.  Just to name a few object-oriented
languages off the top of my head, there's C++, Ada 95, Smalltalk,
Objective C, Eiffel, Sather, Modula 3, Trellis/OWL, Java, Dylan, Perl
5, CLOS, Object Pascal, Self, and Simula.

One of the silliest things about Fleming's posts is the way he acts as
if C+@ is the only conceivable alternative to C++.  Nothing could be
farther from the truth!  I can understand why Fleming is fixated on
C+@, since he used to sell it, but I can't think of any reason why the
rest of us should care about it.  It's just one more language among
many, and I have yet to see any reason to think that it's any better
than the other twenty or thirty choices out there.

In article <MATT.95Jun4223325@godzilla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU>,
matt@godzilla.EECS.Berkeley.EDU says...
>
>In article <3qtsm5$320@news.wwa.com> "Robert C. Martin" <rmartin@oma.com>
writes:
>
>> What makes you think that people didn't have a choice.  As early as
>> 1989 I was put into the position of choosing between Objective_C
>> and C++.  Smalltalk has been around for awhile too.  There were
>> choices.
>
>Lots of choices; there still are.  Just to name a few object-oriented
>languages off the top of my head, there's C++, Ada 95, Smalltalk,
>Objective C, Eiffel, Sather, Modula 3, Trellis/OWL, Java, Dylan, Perl
>5, CLOS, Object Pascal, Self, and Simula.
>
>One of the silliest things about Fleming's posts is the way he acts as
>if C+@ is the only conceivable alternative to C++.  Nothing could be
>farther from the truth!  I can understand why Fleming is fixated on
>C+@, since he used to sell it, but I can't think of any reason why the
>rest of us should care about it.  It's just one more language among
>many, and I have yet to see any reason to think that it's any better
>than the other twenty or thirty choices out there.

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

C+@ is NOT an alternative to C++. All languages are unique and everyone
should carefully evaluate their needs and select the best tool for the
job. As I have said many times, a language is just a tool which allows
humans (in most cases) to describe systems which can be loaded onto some
real or virtual platform for execution.

Languages are a tool for humans to communicate with machines and in many
cases the tool is used to develop more software which allows humans to
communicate with each other and the system(s). In the end, communication
is an important aspect of both the system purpose and the system design.

As the Internet plays a larger role in all of our lives we should strive
to improve the ways in which we communicate. As citizens of the planet
earth we should share our ideas on communication and accurately report on
our research results. The planet Earth is not well served when one-sided
stories are reported and the population is mislead.

I would be the last person in favor of people looking only at C+@. I for
one am currently studying JAVA (which looks an awful lot like C+@...:) ).
I recommend that everyone look at JAVA (http://java.sun.com) and compare
and contrast it to C++ and other languages. Also, I recommend that people
consider Smalltalk and Eiffel. The recent posting here regarding the
Eiffel standard class library sounds very promising.

Most people will probably never see C+@, will probably never be able to
program in C+@, and will probably never fully understand the "origin of
the species". C+@ will probably go down in history as one of the extinct
or endangered species and just as with real animals, the average person
really does not care. They are usually too wrapped up in their own worlds
to worry about other creatures on the planet and the future of the planet.

As I have said many times...C++ has won, it must now deliver...society
is depending on the C++ wizards to wave their wands and "make it so"...
The powerful lobbyists have won, corporate America has won, another
gold medal can be recorded in the history books of Bell Labs...society
can now sit in awe (a mixed feeling of reverence, fear and wonder)...

My point is very simple...C++ is not the end all be all...C+@ is not the
end all be all...neither is Smalltalk, Eiffel or JAVA...my point is that
in the case of C++, given the advantages that the developers had both
academically, and financially...do they really need to stomp all over
everything in the industry and try to crush the life out of anything
that does not conform to the C++ religion...???...are they really that
insecure about their creation that everything and everyone with the
slightest alternative view gets attacked by a gang of C++ thugs...???

One would think that eventually the egos of the C++ developers would
be satiated. It appears that the developers have an infinite appetite
for more and more power, recognition, awards, visibility, and money.
In most cases this could be tolerated because our society is now full
of people all striving for their "15 minutes of fame". In the case of
C++, this is especially difficult to watch because these same developers
have spent years stomping on their fellow men and women in an effort
to achieve what they clearly must think is the "ultimate solution".

I am sure that some people will say that the solution to this problem
is not to stomp on the C++ developers. After watching the injustices
inflicted by the C++ developers for the past 10 years, I have decided
that the only way to slow them down is to stomp on them. Unfortunately,
when you are dealing with people like Hitler or Saddam Hussein there
are not many options. Do I like this solution, NO! Do I feel that there
are any other choices, NO! Am I willing to listen to other people's
solutions...YES!...

[ fire away ]

BTW...some people have suggested that one solution is to give C++ more
and more attention, more and more awards, and eventually the developers
will grow tired of this process and pursue other areas of research in
order to seek new challenges...this approach has limited success and the
majority of society does not understand what is going on...pretty soon
an STL is born and then Patterns emerge and the C++ empire grows to
new levels of endorsement crowned with an ANSI standard...society does
not have a clue that it is falling behind as it plays the game of
placating the C++ developers in hopes that they will grow weary of the
praise and attention...and will go back to where they came from...

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
--
Jim Fleming            /|\      Unir Corporation       Unir Technology, Inc.
jrf@tiger.bytes.com  /  | \     One Naperville Plaza   184 Shuman Blvd. #100
%Techno Cat I       /   |  \    Naperville, IL 60563   Naperville, IL 60563
East End, Tortola  |____|___\   1-708-505-5801         1-800-222-UNIR(8647)
British Virgin Islands__|______ 1-708-305-3277 (FAX)   1-708-305-0600
                 \__/-------\__/       http:199.3.34.13 telnet: port 5555
Smooth Sailing on Cruising C+@amarans  ftp: 199.3.34.12 <-----stargate----+
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\____to the end of the OuterNet_|

According to jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim Fleming):
>I have decided that the only way to slow them down is to stomp on them.
>Unfortunately, when you are dealing with people like Hitler or Saddam
>Hussein there are not many options.

By the Hitler Clause, this thread is over.  Move along, nothing to see.
--
            Chip Salzenberg, aka <chip@cybernetics.net>
     "And remember to worship at the railroad of your choice."
        -- Mike Nelson, MST3K: "The Amazing Transparent Man"

In article <3qr7b9$h71@News1.mcs.com>,
Jim Fleming <jim.fleming@bytes.com> wrote:
>
>@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
>
>Also, it would have been interesting to see what would have happened if
>people had been given a "choice". As a friend of mine from the old Soviet
>Union once told me, the "best" bread was the *only bread* and everyone
>learned to "eat it" even though it was stale.

Wow!  I guess C++ is supposed to be stale bread?

>As a side note, during my many years in and around AT&T Bell Labs [...]
>"AT&T Bell Laboratories is the closest thing to the Soviet Union that he
>had encountered, since leaving". [...]
>
>He pointed out that at AT&T Bell Labs and in the old Soviet Union...

[don't you love these kinds of analogies!?!!?]

> 1. They never make a mistake [...]
> 2. The majority of *people* are paid well [sic] [...]
> 3. [...]
> 4. [...]
> 5. [...] only certain people are "chosen"[...]
[uh-oh!]
> 6. [...]
> 7. [...]
> 8. [...]
> 9. There is a total lack of concern about the outside world. [...]
> 10. [...]
> 11. Certain selected individuals are promoted [...]
> 12. [...]

Wow.  Twelve whole points about the oppressive atmosphere at ATT.
One guy I used to work with wrote pages of the same kind of complaint
at PRC...sometimes I still take it out and read it for a laugh...
it's not that he didn't hae some valid points, but, well, he wasn't
very popular and he didn't understand why...I liked him at first, but
in the end I was glad to see him go...

His sour grapes lead to a deficit in sanity...he let it eat
at him...it clouded his judgement so that he was heavily biased against
things that he perceived as company mandates...he fixated on it day
in and day out...sure there were some elements of unfairness on the
job, some seemingly two-facedness, preferences and cliques...I guess
in that since all big companies--all big organizations--are like the
former Soviet Union, huh?

I hope your disdane for C++ is not based on your hate of AT&T...such
a diatribe as you have provided, though, makes one wonder...

-t

--
     "language is a virus from outer space
      and hearing your name is better than
      seeing your face." -- wm. burroughs, as paraphrased by laurie anderson