Topic: 3 Person ANSI Committee


Author: kanze@lts.sel.alcatel.de (James Kanze US/ESC 60/3/141 #40763)
Date: 1995/05/12
Raw View
In article <3otd1r$9ov@News1.mcs.com> jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim
Fleming) writes:
|> My questions are still the same.

|> Can other companies provide class libraries *without* violating the
|> copyrights claimed by Plauger?

Of course.

1. You cannot (as far as I know) copyright an interface.  Copyright is
of expression, so at the most, only a specific description of the
interface can be copyrighted.  Note that all of the text in the C
standard, including that describing the library, is also copyrighted.
That has not prevented anyone from implementing a C standard library.

2. You can copyright an implementation (as being an expression of the
idea expressed in the interface).  The particular implementation
described in Plauger's work *is* copyrighted.  If memory serves me
right, in the preface of the book, he explicitly gives you free rights
to use it *for* *non-commercial* *purposes*.

Like the rest of us, Plauger has to make a living.  If you're making
money off his work, it seems only fair that he get a share of it.

This only concerns a specific implementation: that described by
Plauger.  You are free to create your own from scratch, negotiate
rights with Plauger for his, or purchase a library fully implemented
from other sources.  (I believe that Rogue Wave is considering an
implementaion.)  In practice, you will only do this is you are a
compiler implementer; otherwise, the simplest solution is to just use
the implementation that is required to come with the compiler.

|> Since Plum Hall, Inc. sells the class libraries as noted in Plauger's
|> book, do they have a copyright claims also?

I have no idea what the commercial relationship is between Plum Hall
and Plauger.  I suspect that in this case, Plum Hall is simply acting
as a reseller, and has no more copyright claims than a bookstore has
on the books in it.  It is entirely possible, however, that Plum Hall
has made other arrangements with Plauger.
--
James Kanze         Tel.: (+33) 88 14 49 00        email: kanze@gabi-soft.fr
GABI Software, Sarl., 8 rue des Francs-Bourgeois, F-67000 Strasbourg, France
Conseils en informatique industrielle --
                              -- Beratung in industrieller Datenverarbeitung







Author: shepherd@debussy.sbi.com (Marc Shepherd)
Date: 1995/05/12
Raw View
In article 481@cygnus.com, bothner@cygnus.com (Per Bothner) writes:
>I would prefer that the standard *text* be freely available and
>copyable;....

I would prefer that too.  In any event, I hope I don't have to
buy Herbert Schildt's annotations to get myself a copy :-)

....but at least the Draft is copyable, and the *language*
>(including libraries) are freely implementable.

The draft is not *freely* copyable--you can only copy it for
certain limited purposes (described in Andy Koenig's README
file).  And, after the Monerey meeting, the draft now available
will be as current as yesterday's newspaper.

(BTW, I do not share any of the "conspiracy" theories that
some netters are now circulating--I'm merely concurring with
the statement that standards should be freely available.)

---
Marc Shepherd
Salomon Brothers Inc
shepherd@schubert.sbi.com The opinions I express are no one's but mine!






Author: maxtal@Physics.usyd.edu.au (John Max Skaller)
Date: 1995/05/14
Raw View
In article <KANZE.95May11133843@slsvhdt.lts.sel.alcatel.de>,
James Kanze US/ESC 60/3/141 #40763 <kanze@lts.sel.alcatel.de> wrote:
>In article <3o7vhv$oma@offas_dike.sbil.co.uk> shepherd@debussy.sbi.com
>(Marc Shepherd) writes:
>
>This is extremely unfair to Plauger.

>Plauger didn't just `sit on a committee'.  He was an active member,
>making considerable suggestions.
>
>As I understand it, he wrote his book independently of the committee
>draft.

 Plauger wrote the first _whole_ library draft.
What's in his book was indeed originally penned by P.J. Plauger.

>Plauger has probably contributed as much to the library section of the
>standard as Andy Koenig did to the rest.

 Yes. Plauger was responsible for integrating the
components of the library with a description written in
"Standardese" suitable for a Standard.

 Many of the classes and functions have subsequently
been changed, and Alex Stepanov is largely responsible for that (STL).

 The monolithic library clause replaced by several
smaller clauses, which is mainly attributable to Mike Vilot.

 The ability of the language to cope with STL is due
mainly to Bjarne Stroustrup -- who repreatedly concentrated
the efforts of the extensions group on templates.
--
        JOHN (MAX) SKALLER,         INTERNET:maxtal@suphys.physics.su.oz.au
 Maxtal Pty Ltd,
        81A Glebe Point Rd, GLEBE   Mem: SA IT/9/22,SC22/WG21
        NSW 2037, AUSTRALIA     Phone: 61-2-566-2189





Author: "Ronald F. Guilmette" <rfg@rahul.net>
Date: 1995/05/14
Raw View
In article <KANZE.95May11133843@slsvhdt.lts.sel.alcatel.de>,
James Kanze US/ESC 60/3/141 #40763 <kanze@lts.sel.alcatel.de> wrote:
>In article <3o7vhv$oma@offas_dike.sbil.co.uk> shepherd@debussy.sbi.com
>(Marc Shepherd) writes:
>
>|> In article mu@News1.mcs.com, jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim Fleming) writes:
>
>|> >Also, it is not clear from the standard how other companies would
>|> >provide alternative class libraries and not end up violating the
>|> >P.J. Plauger copyrights which Bjarne asks everyone to "respect".
>
>|> Actually, this troubled me too.  I thought it was very clever of
>|> P.J. Plauger to sit on a committee for years and years, listen carefully
>|> to everyone's ideas, then copyright them in a book and convince the
>|> committee to publicly acknowledge *him* as the original source.  Perhaps
>|> someone can explain how he got away with this.
>
>This is extremely unfair to Plauger.  If you've read any of Plauger's
>earlier works, you would know that he doesn't have to plagerize ideas
>from anyone.  His "Programming Tools in Pascal", co-authored with
>Brian Kernighan, is still one of the best books around on how to write
>good software, despite its age and its strong anti-Pascal bias.
>
>Plauger didn't just `sit on a committee'.  He was an active member,
>making considerable suggestions.

Exactly so.  Plauger pulled a bunch of disparate pieces (all written in
different styles) together into one consistant and unified library
chapter when no one else would.  All indications are that he worked
his ass off doing this.

(As they say, no good deed goes unpunished, so naturally, his reward for
all of his hard work was to receive a bunch of flak from essentially all
of the rest of the library subcommittee.  No one else had stepped up to
the plate and volunteered to do the work to pull together a cohesive
library chapter, but many members seemed all too eager to criticize
Plauger's efforts to do so.)

>...  And of course, once the book was to far
>advanced for Plauger to change anything major, the committee went and
>redesigned most of the library.

Yes.  Basically the committee screwed Plauger at the meeting where they
voted in STL and a whole raft of other library additions.  In one short
period (of a few hours) the committee effectively rendered the book he
had been laboring on for months obsolete.  (I happened to be sitting
next to him when this happened.  Needless to say, he was not amused.)

>Plauger has probably contributed as much to the library section of the
>standard as Andy Koenig did to the rest.

True.

>...  (I'm sure that he'd have made more money
>if he'd have spent the time consulting, rather than working on the
>standards.)

Undoubtedly true.
--

-- Ron Guilmette, Sunnyvale, CA ---------- RG Consulting -------------------
---- E-mail: rfg@segfault.us.com ----------- Purveyors of Compiler Test ----
---- finger: rfg@rahul.net ----------------- Suites and Bullet-Proof Shoes -





Author: kanze@lts.sel.alcatel.de (James Kanze US/ESC 60/3/141 #40763)
Date: 1995/05/11
Raw View
In article <3o7vhv$oma@offas_dike.sbil.co.uk> shepherd@debussy.sbi.com
(Marc Shepherd) writes:

|> In article mu@News1.mcs.com, jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim Fleming) writes:

|> >Also, it is not clear from the standard how other companies would
|> >provide alternative class libraries and not end up violating the
|> >P.J. Plauger copyrights which Bjarne asks everyone to "respect".

|> Actually, this troubled me too.  I thought it was very clever of
|> P.J. Plauger to sit on a committee for years and years, listen carefully
|> to everyone's ideas, then copyright them in a book and convince the
|> committee to publicly acknowledge *him* as the original source.  Perhaps
|> someone can explain how he got away with this.

This is extremely unfair to Plauger.  If you've read any of Plauger's
earlier works, you would know that he doesn't have to plagerize ideas
from anyone.  His "Programming Tools in Pascal", co-authored with
Brian Kernighan, is still one of the best books around on how to write
good software, despite its age and its strong anti-Pascal bias.

Plauger didn't just `sit on a committee'.  He was an active member,
making considerable suggestions.

As I understand it, he wrote his book independently of the committee
draft.  He doubtlessly showed preliminary copies to other members of
the committee, but publication lead times being what they are, I am
sure that most of the text in the book pre-dated the current wording
of the draft.  At one point, Plauger offered an alternative wording of
the current proposed library.  It was accepted as being better than
that which the committee had come up with until then.  I suspect that
this version owes much to the preliminary version of Plauger's book
(and not vice versa).  And of course, once the book was to far
advanced for Plauger to change anything major, the committee went and
redesigned most of the library.

Plauger has probably contributed as much to the library section of the
standard as Andy Koenig did to the rest.  Plauger does not have the
backing of a large company, who pays him for this activity.  Are you
complaining because he also wants to be able to make a little money
from his (very great) contribution.  It's his way of being
(under-)paid for his work.  (I'm sure that he'd have made more money
if he'd have spent the time consulting, rather than working on the
standards.)
--
James Kanze         Tel.: (+33) 88 14 49 00        email: kanze@gabi-soft.fr
GABI Software, Sarl., 8 rue des Francs-Bourgeois, F-67000 Strasbourg, France
Conseils en informatique industrielle --
                              -- Beratung in industrieller Datenverarbeitung







Author: jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim Fleming)
Date: 1995/05/11
Raw View
In article <KANZE.95May11133843@slsvhdt.lts.sel.alcatel.de>,
kanze@lts.sel.alcatel.de says...
>
>In article <3o7vhv$oma@offas_dike.sbil.co.uk> shepherd@debussy.sbi.com
>(Marc Shepherd) writes:
>

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
>|> In article mu@News1.mcs.com, jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim Fleming) writes:
>|> >Also, it is not clear from the standard how other companies would
>|> >provide alternative class libraries and not end up violating the
>|> >P.J. Plauger copyrights which Bjarne asks everyone to "respect".
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Please Note...
I did not write the following...please look closely at the references...
...also, it has been difficult to find out who has been "sitting" on the
committee and who has not...Jim Fleming
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

>|> Actually, this troubled me too.  I thought it was very clever of
>|> P.J. Plauger to sit on a committee for years and years, listen carefully
>|> to everyone's ideas, then copyright them in a book and convince the
>|> committee to publicly acknowledge *him* as the original source.  Perhaps
>|> someone can explain how he got away with this.
>
>This is extremely unfair to Plauger.  If you've read any of Plauger's
>earlier works, you would know that he doesn't have to plagerize ideas
>from anyone.  His "Programming Tools in Pascal", co-authored with
>Brian Kernighan, is still one of the best books around on how to write
>good software, despite its age and its strong anti-Pascal bias.
>
>Plauger didn't just `sit on a committee'.  He was an active member,
>making considerable suggestions.
>
>As I understand it, he wrote his book independently of the committee
>draft.  He doubtlessly showed preliminary copies to other members of
>the committee, but publication lead times being what they are, I am
>sure that most of the text in the book pre-dated the current wording
>of the draft.  At one point, Plauger offered an alternative wording of
>the current proposed library.  It was accepted as being better than
>that which the committee had come up with until then.  I suspect that
>this version owes much to the preliminary version of Plauger's book
>(and not vice versa).  And of course, once the book was to far
>advanced for Plauger to change anything major, the committee went and
>redesigned most of the library.
>
>Plauger has probably contributed as much to the library section of the
>standard as Andy Koenig did to the rest.  Plauger does not have the
>backing of a large company, who pays him for this activity.  Are you
>complaining because he also wants to be able to make a little money
>from his (very great) contribution.  It's his way of being
>(under-)paid for his work.  (I'm sure that he'd have made more money
>if he'd have spent the time consulting, rather than working on the
>standards.)
>--
>James Kanze         Tel.: (+33) 88 14 49 00        email:
kanze@gabi-soft.fr
>GABI Software, Sarl., 8 rue des Francs-Bourgeois, F-67000 Strasbourg,
France
>Conseils en informatique industrielle --
>                              -- Beratung in industrieller
Datenverarbeitung
>
>

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
My questions are still the same.

Can other companies provide class libraries *without* violating the
copyrights claimed by Plauger?

Since Plum Hall, Inc. sells the class libraries as noted in Plauger's
book, do they have a copyright claims also?

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
--
Jim Fleming            /|\      Unir Corporation       Unir Technology, Inc.
jrf@tiger.bytes.com  /  | \     One Naperville Plaza   184 Shuman Blvd. #100
%Techno Cat I       /   |  \    Naperville, IL 60563   Naperville, IL 60563
East End, Tortola  |____|___\   1-708-505-5801         1-800-222-UNIR(8647)
British Virgin Islands__|______ 1-708-305-3277 (FAX)   1-708-305-0600
                 \__/-------\__/       http:199.3.34.13 telnet: port 5555
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Author: bothner@cygnus.com (Per Bothner)
Date: 1995/05/11
Raw View
In article <3otd1r$9ov@news1.mcs.com>,
Jim Fleming <jim.fleming@bytes.com> wrote:
>My questions are still the same.
>
>Can other companies provide class libraries *without* violating the
>copyrights claimed by Plauger?

Yes.  The copyright is on the *text* and *presentation* in the
standards *document*.  The *ideas* are not copyrighted - and
copyright law does not allow for ideas to be copyrighted.

Cygnus does not intend to pay a licensing fee to Plauger,
Plum, ANSI, or anyone else.  Some vendors may want to pay a
licensing fee for Plauger's *implementation*.   That is their
choice.  (Cygnus does not have that option, because it would
be incompatible with our "Free Software" / "Sourceware" business
model.)  Book publishers may also want to negotiate with ANSI and/or
Plauger for the right to reprint the standard or (substantial)
parts of it.  Others may prefer to write manuals using their
own words and phrasing.

I would prefer that the standard *text* be freely available and
copyable;  but at least the Draft is copyable, and the *language*
(including libraries) are freely implementable.

--
 --Per Bothner
Cygnus Support     bothner@cygnus.com





Author: jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim Fleming)
Date: 1995/05/02
Raw View
In scanning through the files released by AT&T only three names appear
in any of the material:

  Bjarne Strustrup
  Andrew Koenig
  P.J. Plauger

Is that the entire active ANSI C++ Committee?
Is that just the Working Group?

Also, there does not appear to be the usual ANSI cover material and
other "official" language regarding the contents and usage of the
standard.

The documents appear to be distributed by AT&T Bell Laboratories and
it is not clear whether there is a Copyright release from Plum Hall, Inc.
There is mention of copyrights held by P.J. Plauger but according to
P.J. Plauger's book, Plum Hall, Inc. is also involved.

Normally, with an ANSI and ISO process, you see a fair amount of
legalistic material that ensures that there are no hidden agendas
in the process. This type of material does not seem to be part of
the "standard" as distributed.

Also, it is not clear from the standard how other companies would
provide alternative class libraries and not end up violating the
P.J. Plauger copyrights which Bjarne asks everyone to "respect".

--
Jim Fleming            /|\      Unir Corporation       Unir Technology, Inc.
%Techno Cat I        /  | \     One Naperville Plaza   184 Shuman Blvd. #100
Penn's Landing      /   |  \    Naperville, IL 60563   Naperville, IL 60563
East End, Tortola  |____|___\   1-708-505-5801         1-800-222-UNIR(8647)
British Virgin Islands__|______ 1-708-305-3277 (FAX)   1-708-305-0600
                 \__/-------\__/       e-mail: jim.fleming@bytes.com
Smooth Sailing on Cruising C+@amarans  ftp: 199.3.34.12 <-----stargate----+
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\____to the end of the OuterNet_|






Author: jim.fleming@bytes.com (jim.fleming@bytes.com)
Date: 1995/05/02
Raw View
From: jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim Fleming)
Date: 2 May 1995 21:42:55 GMT
Organization: Unir Corporation


In scanning through the files released by AT&T only three names appear
in any of the material:

  Bjarne Strustrup
  Andrew Koenig
  P.J. Plauger

Is that the entire active ANSI C++ Committee?
Is that just the Working Group?

Also, there does not appear to be the usual ANSI cover material and
other "official" language regarding the contents and usage of the
standard.

The documents appear to be distributed by AT&T Bell Laboratories and
it is not clear whether there is a Copyright release from Plum Hall, Inc.
There is mention of copyrights held by P.J. Plauger but according to
P.J. Plauger's book, Plum Hall, Inc. is also involved.

Normally, with an ANSI and ISO process, you see a fair amount of
legalistic material that ensures that there are no hidden agendas
in the process. This type of material does not seem to be part of
the "standard" as distributed.

Also, it is not clear from the standard how other companies would
provide alternative class libraries and not end up violating the
P.J. Plauger copyrights which Bjarne asks everyone to "respect".

--
Jim Fleming            /|\      Unir Corporation       Unir Technology, Inc.
%Techno Cat I        /  | \     One Naperville Plaza   184 Shuman Blvd. #100
Penn's Landing      /   |  \    Naperville, IL 60563   Naperville, IL 60563
East End, Tortola  |____|___\   1-708-505-5801         1-800-222-UNIR(8647)
British Virgin Islands__|______ 1-708-305-3277 (FAX)   1-708-305-0600
                 \__/-------\__/       e-mail: jim.fleming@bytes.com
Smooth Sailing on Cruising C+@amarans  ftp: 199.3.34.12 <-----stargate----+
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\____to the end of the OuterNet_|

--
| Fidonet:  jim.fleming@bytes.com 1:133/411.412
| Internet: jim.fleming@bytes.com
| Gateway:  Galaxy Information System (GIS) Atlanta





Author: shepherd@debussy.sbi.com (Marc Shepherd)
Date: 1995/05/03
Raw View
In article mu@News1.mcs.com, jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim Fleming) writes:
>
>In scanning through the files released by AT&T only three names appear
>in any of the material:
>
>  Bjarne Strustrup
>  Andrew Koenig
>  P.J. Plauger
>
>Is that the entire active ANSI C++ Committee?
>Is that just the Working Group?

As you must surely know, these are *not* the entire active ANSI C++
Committee.  It is perfectly normal for a committee document *not*
to list the names of all the members who produce it.  Stroustrup's
and Plauger's names appear only because the standard is based (in
part) on material they wrote.  The C standard has a similar acknowledgement
to Kernighan and Ritchie.

Koenig's name appears because he is the editor.  (I doubt his name
will be on the masthead of the final version.)

>
>Also, there does not appear to be the usual ANSI cover material and
>other "official" language regarding the contents and usage of the
>standard.

That's because this isn't a standard yet--only a draft.  I am quite
sure this language will appear on the final version.

>
>The documents appear to be distributed by AT&T Bell Laboratories and
>it is not clear whether there is a Copyright release from Plum Hall, Inc.
>There is mention of copyrights held by P.J. Plauger but according to
>P.J. Plauger's book, Plum Hall, Inc. is also involved.

I'm sure all these big corporations were quite careful that they had
the rights to distribute this material.

>
>Normally, with an ANSI and ISO process, you see a fair amount of
>legalistic material that ensures that there are no hidden agendas
>in the process. This type of material does not seem to be part of
>the "standard" as distributed.

Again, you keep calling this a "standard," which it is not--only
a draft.  I am sure the final version will have all the legalistic
material that you seem to want.

>
>Also, it is not clear from the standard how other companies would
>provide alternative class libraries and not end up violating the
>P.J. Plauger copyrights which Bjarne asks everyone to "respect".

Actually, this troubled me too.  I thought it was very clever of
P.J. Plauger to sit on a committee for years and years, listen carefully
to everyone's ideas, then copyright them in a book and convince the
committee to publicly acknowledge *him* as the original source.  Perhaps
someone can explain how he got away with this.


---
Marc Shepherd
Salomon Brothers Inc
mshepherd@mhfl.sbi.com  The opinions I express are no one's but mine!






Author: COATES@EUROPA.UMUC.EDU (Ell)
Date: 1995/05/03
Raw View
In <3o7vhv$oma@offas_dike.sbil.co.uk> shepherd@debussy.sbi.com writes:

> In article mu@News1.mcs.com, jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim Fleming) writes:
> >Also, it is not clear from the standard how other companies would
> >provide alternative class libraries and not end up violating the
> >P.J. Plauger copyrights which Bjarne asks everyone to "respect".

> Actually, this troubled me too.  I thought it was very clever of
> P.J. Plauger to sit on a committee for years and years, listen carefully
> to everyone's ideas, then copyright them in a book and convince the
> committee to publicly acknowledge *him* as the original source.  Perhaps
> someone can explain how he got away with this.






Author: Mike Stump <mrs@cygnus.com>
Date: 1995/05/03
Raw View
In article <f06_9505031116@gisatl.fidonet.org>,
jim.fleming@bytes.com <jim.fleming@bytes.com> wrote:
>
>  Bjarne Strustrup
>  Andrew Koenig
>  P.J. Plauger
>
>Is that the entire active ANSI C++ Committee?

No.

>Is that just the Working Group?

No.





Author: jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim Fleming)
Date: 1995/05/03
Raw View
In article <3o7vhv$oma@offas_dike.sbil.co.uk>, shepherd@debussy.sbi.com
says...
>
>In article mu@News1.mcs.com, jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim Fleming) writes:
>>
>>In scanning through the files released by AT&T only three names appear
>>in any of the material:
>>
>>               Bjarne Strustrup
>>               Andrew Koenig
>>               P.J. Plauger
>>
>>Is that the entire active ANSI C++ Committee?
>>Is that just the Working Group?
>
>As you must surely know, these are *not* the entire active ANSI C++
>Committee.  It is perfectly normal for a committee document *not*
>to list the names of all the members who produce it.  Stroustrup's
>and Plauger's names appear only because the standard is based (in
>part) on material they wrote.  The C standard has a similar acknowledgement
>to Kernighan and Ritchie.
>
>Koenig's name appears because he is the editor.  (I doubt his name
>will be on the masthead of the final version.)
>
>>
>>Also, there does not appear to be the usual ANSI cover material and
>>other "official" language regarding the contents and usage of the
>>standard.
>
>That's because this isn't a standard yet--only a draft.  I am quite
>sure this language will appear on the final version.
>
>>
>>The documents appear to be distributed by AT&T Bell Laboratories and
>>it is not clear whether there is a Copyright release from Plum Hall, Inc.
>>There is mention of copyrights held by P.J. Plauger but according to
>>P.J. Plauger's book, Plum Hall, Inc. is also involved.
>
>I'm sure all these big corporations were quite careful that they had
>the rights to distribute this material.
>
>>
>>Normally, with an ANSI and ISO process, you see a fair amount of
>>legalistic material that ensures that there are no hidden agendas
>>in the process. This type of material does not seem to be part of
>>the "standard" as distributed.
>
>Again, you keep calling this a "standard," which it is not--only
>a draft.  I am sure the final version will have all the legalistic
>material that you seem to want.
>
>>
>>Also, it is not clear from the standard how other companies would
>>provide alternative class libraries and not end up violating the
>>P.J. Plauger copyrights which Bjarne asks everyone to "respect".
>
>Actually, this troubled me too.  I thought it was very clever of
>P.J. Plauger to sit on a committee for years and years, listen carefully
>to everyone's ideas, then copyright them in a book and convince the
>committee to publicly acknowledge *him* as the original source.  Perhaps
>someone can explain how he got away with this.
>
>
>---
>Marc Shepherd
>Salomon Brothers Inc
>mshepherd@mhfl.sbi.com          The opinions I express are no one's but
mine!
>

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Maybe you can get more answers to your concerns in New York...
 ...the information capital of the world...

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C++ and C SIG:  Meeting & announcements Newsletter       May 1, 1995

This contains meeting announcements for the C++ and C SIG of NYPC,
for May 95, and preliminary info on future meetings

  Highlights
Thur  May  4  Thomas Keffer  president, Rogue Wave (Corvallis,Oregon)
              Nathan Myers   Rogue Wave (NY)   (member, ANSI C++ comm)
Tues  May 16  Josee Lajoie   IBM (Toronto) (vice chair, ANSI C++ comm)
              Dale Nilsson   IBM (Raleigh, North Carolina)
Thur  May 25  Rob Murray     Quantitative Data Systems (Irvine,Calif)
Thur  June 1  Bjarne Stroustrup  AT&T Bell Labs (NJ)
Wed   June 7  Alex Stepanov  HP (Palo Alto,Calif)

page 0   Table of contents

+++ General Meeting

page 1   Thu May 4   "C++ Class Library Design"
                       Thomas Keffer, president of Rogue Wave
                     "Interface Design in the Standard Library"
                       Nathan Myers, Rogue Wave(also ANSI C++ committee)

+++ Special Events

page 2   Tue May 16  "Using Templates", Josee Lajoie, IBM Toronto Canada
                        (also vice-chair ANSI C++ committee)
                        Applies to use of templates with all compilers.
                     "IBM VisualAge C++", Dale Nilsson, IBM Raleigh NC
                        IBM CSet++ version 3

page 3   Thu May 25  "Business Objects using a simple specification
                        language: two case studies"
                        Rob Murray, Quantitative Data Systems
                        (founding editor, columnist: the C++ Report)


+++ Study Group meetings for May

page 4   Mon May 8,22   OOA    OO Analysis & Design
page 5   Tue May 2,9    c2c++  Moving from C to C++  (intro C++)
page 7   Thu May 11,18  Ctop   C++ Topics: STL; OO Databases
page 8   Tue May 23     CSF    C++ Street Fight   (advanced C++)
page 9   Thu May 25     WallSt Wall St Financials
page 10  Mon May 1,8,   STL    Standard Template Library
                15,22
page 6   Wednesdays     Win    MS Windows API programming
             May 3,10,17,24,31


+++ Future General and Special Meetings

page 11  Thu Jun 1   Bjarne Stroustrup, AT&T Bell Labs, designer of C++

page 12              Object Expo 95 (NY Hilton)
         Mon Jun 5   tba
         Wed Jun 7   Alex Stepanov, HP, "Standard Template Library"(STL)
         Thu Jun 8   tba

page 13  Jun 20-22   PC Expo 95 (Javits Center)  Volunteers needed

page 14  General C++ and C SIG info, and NYPC membership.  Please join!

page 15  Map of NYU vicinity

page 16  Calendar of May and June meetings


Locations     IBM = "IBM building", 590 Madison Av (57th St), 6th fl

              NYU = New York University - see map on page 15

Changes...    Meeting locations are listed for May only
              Some groups WILL change locations in June!


++ page 1 ++++++  General Meeting

Thu. May 4    General Meeting
6:15-9:00pm      "C++ Class Library Design"

              Location: IBM bldg, 590 Madison Av (57th St), 6th fl

6:15-7:30     Nathan Myers, "Interface Design in the Standard Library"
7:45-9:00     Thomas Keffer, "Designing C++ Class Libraries"

6:15-7:30     Nathan Myers -- "Interface Design in the Standard Library:
                the Grand Challenge"

Abstract      The Standard C++ Library represents many challenges.  As
              the most-scrutinized of all libraries it must be exemplary
              in all respects.  As the foundation of most other
              libraries it must impose no unnecessary overhead, nor any
              policy that precludes some style of programming.  As a
              part of the language standard it must be usable wherever
              the language itself is used.  Integrating support for
              internationalization, without imposing it on those not
              interested, has turned out to require many new or unusual
              interface design techniques that are just as valuable to
              any library designer.

              This session will use a variety of examples drawn from the
              (draft) Standard Library, and its application, to
              demonstrate how C++ supports the design of a library that
              offers generality without sacrificing efficiency or
              convenience.

Bio           Nathan Myers has been using C++ since 1986.  He joined
              Rogue Wave in 1992 after writing what became the Heap.h++
              library.  He did the internationalization and multi-
              threading support in Tools.h++, and co-architected
              DBTools.h++, a relational database encapsulation.
              He is now deeply involved in the ISO/ANSI C++ Standard
              committee, in the Library Working Group, though he is also
              responsible for one new C++ keyword.  He works in New York
              City, as Rogue Wave's Developer-at-Large.

7:45-9:00     Thomas Keffer -- "Designing C++ Class Libraries"
Thu May 4

Abstract      The design of libraries (as opposed to applications) is a
              specialized kind of design problem: The overriding design
              goal is code reusability.  This talk will focus on various
              design and implementation strategies and how they affect
              reusability.

              The general principles of reuse will be articulated and
              illustrated.  These include:

              o Build on what the user already knows
              o Do not take over global resources
              o Policy free
              o Design for extensibility
              o Design for portability

              and (above all)..

              o The Two Golden Rules

              Various library architectures will be described and their
              advantages and disadvantages discussed:

              o Interface architectures (eg, the C++ Booch Components
                and Tools.h++)
              o Tree architectures (eg, the MFC, OWL, NIHCL)
              o Forest (bush) architectures (eg, Tools.h++)
              o Concrete classes (eg, strings)
              o Layered architectures (eg, iostreams)
              o Generic Programming Classes (eg, the STL)

              A robust error model and C++ implementation will be
              introduced and explained.  This model was developed by
              Rogue Wave, and then proposed and accepted by the ANSI/ISO
              C++ Committee.  The model divides errors into two broad
              categories: logic errors, and runtime errors.  The former
              includes violated preconditions and class invariants.  The
              latter includes out-of-range errors and environment
              errors, such as out of memory or disk space.  We will then
              see how this translates into the class structure seen in
              the ANSI/ISO standard.

              The advantage of this model and class structure is that
              the user will be able to write very simple handlers that
              divide errors into those that the program is likely to be
              able to recover from (runtime errors) and those that it is
              not (logic errors).  Examples of these error handlers will
              be shown.

              Finally, the talk will end with a look into the future and
              some new technologies that will further the goal of
              component reuse.

              o SOM
              o DSOM
              o CORBA
              o Late binding compilers

Bio           Tom Keffer is the President and founder of Rogue Wave
              Software, a leading developer of C++ class libraries.  He
              is the chief architect of many of the company's libraries.
              He has been working with C++ since 1987, is the author of
              numerous articles on object-oriented techniques, and is
              well-known for his C++ expertise.  His current interests
              are in reuseology, the myriad of technical and social
              issues that allow and encourage software reuse.

Doorprizes    50 copies of the "C++ Report", courtesy of SIGS Publishing

              (tbd) copies of Rogue Wave software or services
              Winners choice: software package or C++ training at a
              Rogue Wave seminar in NYC

              100 certificates for special group pricing for the
              Symantec C++ compiler for the PC and for Mac were received
              after the Symantec April 11 meeting.  They will be
              distributed at this meeting.


++ page 2  +++++++

Tue May 16    Special Event: IBM VisualAge C++
6:15-9:00     Location: IBM bldg, 590 Madison Av (57th St), 6th fl

6:30-7:45     "Using Templates", Josee Lajoie, IBM Toronto, Canada
                 This session applies to _ALL_ users of templates on
                 all compiler systems.  Valuable info, recommended!

7:45-9:00     "IBM VisualAge C++", Dale Nilsson, IBM Raleigh NC
                 IBM CSet++ 3.0 for OS/2

6:30-7:45     Josee Lajoie -- "Using Templates"

Abstract      Templates is the area of the C++ language that was the
              most refined by the C++ standard committee. When templates
              were first adopted by the committee more than 4 years ago,
              their use was rather limited and only a few, if any,
              implementations supported templates.  Templates are now
              supported by most implementations and are widely used by
              the C++ community (in particular, the C++ standard library
              uses templates extensively). As a consequence of templates
              becoming widely used, many questions on templates were
              presented to the C++ standard committee causing the
              committee to clarify and revise many of the rules on
              templates, sometimes in important ways.

              Even if many questions regarding templates have been
              answered, the user community is not yet familiar with some
              of the resolutions adopted.  The area with which the users
              seem most unfamiliar is the area of template
              instantiations.  Users are still uncertain about which
              rules to follow to write "portable" programs, about the
              behavior they should expect from their program, about the
              effect of certain language constructs on template instan-
              tiations.  For example, users often ask how template
              specializations can/must be declared, how template instan-
              tiations can be explicitly requested, where the point of
              instantiation is located when a template is used in class
              scope, block scope, namespace scope, etc..

              Trying to answer these questions, this discussion will
              present the compilation model that was adopted for
              templates.  It will review how, when and where template
              instantiations take place, what users can expect
              implementations to do for them, how users can take control
              over the template instantiation mechanism if performance
              is a very sensitive area of their application.  The
              presentation will discuss what happens when users package
              their template definitions in namespaces and how template
              instantiations interact with namespaces.  The presentation
              will describe how users can substitute their own
              definitions for template classes or functions, and when
              doing so, how users must write and organize their code to
              stay conformant with the requirements of C++ language
              rules.

Bio           Josee Lajoie works in the C/C++ compiler group of the IBM
              Canada Laboratory.  She is vice-chair of the ANSI/ISO C++
              standard committee and the chair of the Core Language
              working group for the committee.  She writes the "Standard
              Update" column for the "C++ Report" magazine.

7:45-9:00pm   "IBM VisualAge C ++ V3.0"
Tue May 16    Dale Nilsson, IBM SWS, Raleigh North Carolina

Abstract      VisualAge C++ V3.0, OS/2 Edition, has an advanced state of
              the art visual construction paradigm, powerful tools and
              a rich set of class libraries.  Many of the tools are new
              or have been completely rewritten for Version 3.0.

              This new release is Warp-enabled, and replaces the current
              IBM C Set V2.1.  IDE Graphical tools included: browser,
              editor, debugger, performance analyzer, visual builder and
              database access, which work seamlessly together.

              Agenda
              *  Product overview
              *  C++ parts architecture
              *  Live demo
              *  Summary and discussion

              // This was abstracted from a longer article with much
              // more info.  For the full version, with features of
              // individual tools, send return email, with a subject
              // line of "IBM VisualAge C++"

Bio           Dale Nilsson, IBM SWS Raleigh, North Carolina
              Dale has worked in software for over 19 years, as a
              consultant and for the State of California, McDonnell
              Douglas, and IBM.  He has held various development,
              management, and planning positions in IBM and worked with
              customers and vendors throughout the US, Europe, and Asia.
              He is currently on the VisualAge C++ team developing and
              deploying VisualAge C++ worldwide.

Doorprizes    10 copies IBM VisualAge++ (CSet++) software
              Winners selects version:  OS/2,  AIX,  Solaris  or  AS/400

              50 copies of the "C++ Report" magazine,
              courtesy of SIGS Publications


++ page 3  ++++++*

Thu May 25    Special Event: Wall St Financials study group
6:30-9:00
              Location: IBM bldg, 590 Madison Av (57th St), 6th fl

Title         Rob Murray -- "Business objects using a simple
               specification language: two case studies"

Abstract      Even though modern object oriented languages make it
              easier to reuse code across an architecture, implementing
              a common set of mechanisms across a large class hierarchy
              can still involve a lot of duplicated code.  This "boiler-
              plate" code can be a source of careless errors.  One way
              to reduce the boilerplate is to use a specification-driven
              approach.  We express the main objects and their relation-
              ships in a very simple application-specific language and
              use a separate program to generate the code for the
              objects themselves.

              This talk will discuss two projects that used specifica-
              tions to implement large (>100 classes) hierarchies in C++
              The first project, Grail, used specifications to implement
              a set of objects that represented the semantics of
              compiled C++ programs.  These objects were used to
              implement a full-featured set of C++ compilation and
              analysis tools.  This work was done at AT&T Bell Labs.

              The second project is using specifications to build a
              collection of business objects that is being used to
              implement client-server applications.  Currently the
              objects emphasize the insurance domain, although there are
              plans to extend their breadth.  This specification
              language was designed and implemented by John DiCamillo at
              Quantitative Data Systems in Irvine, California.

              In the talk we'll compare and contrast the two approaches
              these projects took, with an emphasis on practical issues.
              * What worked and what did not?
              * How flexible were the two approaches?
              * How complete were they?
              * How robust were the processors?
              * How did the form of the specification evolve over time?

Bio           Rob Murray is Director of Software Engineering at
              Quantitative Data Systems Inc, Irvine CA.  He has taught
              C++ at numerous conferences since 1987 and is the author
              of `C++ Strategies and Tactics' (Addison-Wesley).  He was
              the founding editor of `The C++ Report', and writes
              `The C++ Puzzle' column.


++ page 4  +++++++

Mon May 8     "Object Oriented Analysis and Design" study group (OOA)
Mon May 11    Group leader: Mark Terribile, "mat@mole-end.matawan.nj.us"
7pm-9pm
              During the May meetings, we will develop static Booch
              models for the Copier problem.

              Location: NYU, 25 West 4th St (betw Greene and Mercer St)
              May  8 location: room C-1
              May 22 location: room C-15


++ page 5  ++++++++

Tue May 2     "Moving from C to C++" study group (c2c++)
Tue May 9     Group leader: Walter Williams, "1walt@delphi.com"
6:30-9:00pm
              Location (same as last month): offices of SGI
              Silicon Graphics Inc, 14th fl, 655 Third Av (41st St)

May 2:        Topic: Templates and Container classes
May 9:        Topic: Exception handling.

              This is an introductory level study group


++ page 6  ++++++++

Wednesdays    "Windows API Programming" study group (Win)
May 3, 10,    Group leader: Dean Davis, "ddavis@panix.com"
 17, 24, 31
6:30-9:00pm   Location May 3, 10: contact Dean

              Location May 17 thru July 26: NYU, room C-15,
              25 West 4th St (between Mercer and Greene St)

              This group meets _every_ Wednesday, and discusses details
              of implementing C and C++ programs that use the Microsoft
              Windows API.

              The current series discusses creating 32 bit programs,
              using the 32 bit API calls, and in general the Win NT and
              Win95 environments.


++ page 7  ++++++++

Thu May 11    "C++ and C Topics" study group (Ctop)
Thu May 18    Group leader: Carlos Jerome, "76444.34@compuserve.com"
7:00-9:00pm
              Location: NYU, room C-11,
              25 West 4th St (between Greene and Mercer St)

              This group is currently following two topics:

Thu May 11    Topic: "Use of the Standard Template Library (STL)",
7:00-9:00pm   using a C++ Beautifier as a sample program.  This is a
              continuation of the prior March 9 meeting.
              Speaker: Keith London, major financial institution

              This is an intro level talk. It is a continuation of the
              prior talks / code walkthru / development of programs. The
              purpose is not to develop code per se; it is to examine a
              complete small program and ask questions about why it was
              implemented in that fashion, and clarify specifics of what
              the C++ code is actually doing.

Thu May 18    Topic: "OO Databases"
7:00-9:00pm   Discussion of chapters 2 and 3 in Cattell.
              Carlos Jerome will give a more rigorous definition of a
              relationship among types.  Allen Everhart and/or Carlos
              will report on Won Kim's April 25th talk on UniSQL's
              Object-Relational Data Management.

              We are using the textbook: "Object Data Management"
              (2nd ed, 1994) by R.G.G Cattell, Addison-Wesley
              Available at Barnes & NobIe (about $36 plus tax)


++ page 8  ++++++++

Tue May 23    "C++ Street Fight" study group (CSF)
6:30-9:00pm   Group leader: Tom Holaday, "70407.534@compuserve.com"

              Location: NYU, room C-13,
              25 West 4th St (between Greene and Mercer St)

              Advanced C++ topics, including a review of selected items
              from the draft ANSI/ISO C++ Standard.
              In previous sessions, discussions have also touched on the
              Standard Template Library (STL) and Design Patterns.


++ page 9  ++++++++

Thu May 25    "Wall Street Financials" study group (WallSt)
6:30-9:00pm   Group leader: Ali Hazzah, "alibey@fii.metlife.com"

              Discussions on financial modeling and designs /
              implementation in C++

Thu May 25    Speaker: Rob Murray, Quantitative Data Systems
              This is a special event, described on page 3 above

New group     Ali Hazzah has assumed new responsibilities that preclude
leader(s)     him from continuing as group leader.  We are looking for
needed        volunteers interested in leading discussions on C++ or OO
              and financial software, modeling, designs or algorithms


++ page 10 +++++++

Mondays       Standard Template Library study group (STL)
May 1, 8,     Group leader: Randall Swan, "swan@acf4.nyu.edu"
 15, 22
6:30-9:30pm   Location: NYU, "Main" bldg
              May 1,8,15  room 507
              May 22      room 508

Abstract      Intermediate study group on a template library recently
              incorporated into the ANSI C++ language.  The STL greatly
              facilitates generic programming, and makes available easy
              use of common data structures.

              All members must obtain a copy of the STL source code and
              install it on their own computer.  It is available via
              anonymous ftp from:
                  butler.hpl.hp.com
              directory /stl, download the PC or the Unix version.
              It can also be downloaded from the C++ and C SIG BBS,
              212-473-CSIG, 8N1, file: STL-PC.ZIP

              The STL documentation is supplied in postscript format,
              and is about 65 pages long.  Bring your own printed copy.


++ page 11 ++++++++

Thu. June 1   General Meeting
6:15-9:00pm      Bjarne Stroustrup, AT&T Bell Labs

              Location: to be announced

Title         "The Standard C++ Library: Facilities and techniques"

Abstract      Finally, C++ has a standard library of containers,
              iterators, and basic non-numeric algorithms.  It has more:
              the STL is a theoretically sound, elegant, extensible
              framework into which users can fit their own containers
              and iterators, so that code can be written to be
              independent of any particular container or iterator.
              Importantly, the STL also allows use of built-in C++ types
              such as arrays and pointers and impose no run-time or
              space overheads.  This talk presents the basic techniques
              used in the design and implementation of the STL and gives
              a few simple examples of STL use.

              In addition, the C++ standard library also provides
              character strings, input/output, and some support for
              numerical programming.  I will summarize these facilities
              and their related techniques as time allows.

Bio           Bjarne Stroustrup is the designer and original implementor
              of C++, and the author of `The C++ Programming Language'
              (1st and 2nd ed), and `The Design and Evolution of C++'.
              He is the co-author of `The Annotated C++ Reference
              Manual' (known as the ARM).  These books were the primary
              references used for building many C++ systems

              Bjarne's research interests include distributed systems,
              operating systems, simulation, design, and programming.

              Dr. Stroustrup is an AT&T Bell Labs Fellow and the head of
              Bell Labs' Large-Scale Programming Research department.
              He is actively involved in the ANSI/ISO standardization of
              C++ as the author of the base document.

              Member of the Danish Research Academy.  ACM Fellow.
              Recipient of the 1993 ACM Grace Murray Hopper award.


++ page 12 ++++++++  Object Expo 95

June 5-9      Object oriented technical conference, with professional
Mon-Fri       tutorials and seminars, sponsored by SIGS Conferences.

Location      NY Hilton Hotel  (53rd St & 6th Av, 2nd floor)

Day sessions  Professional rates, registration required
                Voice: 212-242-7515  fax: 212-242-7578
                World Wide Web(WWW) http://www.sigs.com
                Email: info@sigs.com

Evening sess  The C++ and C SIG sessions are free, and open to all.

Exhibit hall  Free, but requires an admission pass (Tue-Thu June 6-8)

Study groups  The Study Groups which normally meet June 5-8 have
              been preempted by the meetings at the NY Hilton

Mon Jun 5     tba
6:30-9:00pm

Wed Jun 7     "Standard Template Library (STL)"
6:30-9:00pm   Alexander Stepanov, HP, co-author of the STL

Thu Jun 8     tba
6:30-9:00pm


Wed Jun 7     "The Standard Template Library"
6:30-8:30     Alexander Stepanov, Hewlett-Packard, Palo Alto, CA

Abstract      The talk describes some elements of the design of the STL
              which was accepted by ANSI/ISO as a part of the emerging
              C++ standard.

              After a brief overview of the design principles and the
              fundamental taxonomy of the components, it will be shown
              how many of the underlying ideas are derived from a simple
              version of linear search implemented in C.  The algorithm
              is refined to what we believe is the most general possible
              version of linear search and many fundamental properties
              of iterators (a generalization of pointers) are derived
              from this abstract algorithm.  We conclude with a simple
              example of a filter program that finds n smallest integers
              in the standard input, implemented out of STL components.

Bio           Alexander Stepanov is a manager of the Generic Programming
              Project at Hewlett Packard Laboratories in Palo Alto, CA.
              He has been working in the area of generic algorithms and
              data structures for over 15 years.  Before joining HP, he
              was with General Electric Corporate R&D, Polytechnic
              University (Brooklyn, NY) and AT&T Bell Laboratories.


++ page 13 ++++++++  PC Expo 95 (Javits Center)

PC Expo        We will distribute free Exhibit hall passes to PC Expo
June 20-22     (Javits Center), courtesy of the Blenheim Group.
Tue-Thu
               Note: PC Expo charges $$ for at the door admission
               _without_ an exhibit pass.

Volunteers!    The C++ and C SIG will have a booth at PC Expo, and needs
               volunteers to staff it in 2 - 3 hour shifts, 10am - 5pm.
               Signup people for the mailing lists, distribute meeting
               calendars. If we have helped you, please help us.


++ page 14 ++++++++  General C++ and C SIG info

Info:         Voice (212) 533-NYPC hotline system, menu code "CSG"
              BBS   (212) 473-CSIG, 14.4/9600/2400, 8,N,1

Note that this is a volunteer user group.  All meetings are always
subject to change in topic/speaker/date/location etc.  Please check your
email or the NYPC voice hotline 212-533-NYPC menu code "CSG".

Cost:         Admission is free.  All are welcome to attend.  We
              request a voluntary contribution of $3 to defray general
              meeting, mailing and related expenses.

E-Mail list   To receive future postings by e-mail, please send e-mail
              to "Rosenberg@Decus.org".  Internet, AOL, AT&T mail, BIX,
              CompuServe, Delphi, MCI, PSI etc addresses are accepted.

Affiliations  The `C++ and C SIG' is an affiliate SIG of NYPC.

              NYPC supplies valuable support to us.  In turn, we should
              support NYPC.  We operate on an honor system, and have not
              checked for membership.  Please note that all attendees
              should be members of NYPC, or be affiliated with NYU.

Please join   The NYPC dues are $35/year, or $65 for two years.
              Please send a check (write "C++" in the memo area) to:
                 NYPC, 40 Wall St, suite 2124, New York NY 10005
              NYPC is a 501(c)3 non-profit organization.

              Office tel# 212-686-NYPC
              Hotline: 212-533-NYPC  BBS: 212-679-NYPC)


Leadership    The new C++ and C SIG 'Board Of Directors' is:
              (based on the election at the April 6 meeting)

              Chair                 (also: Program Agendas, E-Mail list)
                  Saul J Rosenberg      "Rosenberg@Decus.org"
              Vice-Chair
                  Dean Davis            "ddavis@panix.com"
              Secretary              (also: US Mail list)
                  Tom Osbeck            "osbeckt@aol.com"
              Treasurer
                  Joanna Frank          "joannagf@aol.com"
              Board members-at-large
                  Reg Charney           "charney@pipeline.com"
                  Bruce Ingalls          212-387-2038
                  Roger Kuhlman (BBS)   "rgr@groups.sci.ccny.cuny.edu"
                  Dario Laverde         "dario@escape.com"
                  Jonathan Shopiro      "shopiro@ml.com"
              Immediate-Past-Chair
                  Randall Swan          "swan@acf4.nyu.edu"

              Additional Study Group leaders  (not on the board)
                  Ali Hazzah            "alibey@fii.metlife.com"
                  Tom Holaday           "70407.534@compuserve.com"
                  Carlos Jerome         "76444.34@compuserve.com"
                  Mark Terribile        "mat@mole-end.matawan.nj.us"
                  Walter Williams       "1walt@delphi.com"


++ page 15 ++++++  Map of NYU Vicinity

This map is not drawn to scale.  Block sizes are different
      |   |          |   |          |   |       |   |
-------   ------------   ------------   ---------   |
North          Waverly Place                        |
-------   ------------   ------------   ---------   |
      | W |Main      | G |          | M |       | B |
      | a |bldg      | r |          | e |       | r |
Wash- | s |          | e |          | r |       | o |
 ing- | h |          | e |          | c |       | a |
 ton  |   |          | n |          | e |       | d |
      | S ------------ e ------------ r --------- w |
Square| q  Washington    Place                    a |
      |   ------------ S ------------ S --------- y |
 Park | E |    book  | t |          | t |       |   |
      | a |    store |   |          |   |       |   |
      | s |          |   |          |   |       |   |
      | t |          |   |   25W4   |   |       |   |
-------   ------------   ------------   ---------   ---
South           West 4th St
-------------------------------------   ---------   ---
           NYU              Tisch   |   |       |   |
           Info             Hall    |   |       |   |


++ page 16 +++++++  C++ and C SIG Calendar

               May  1995

    Mon       Tue       Wed       Thu       Fri
  1 STL     2 c2c++   3 Win     4 Gen     5 ---
  8 OOA     9 c2c++  10 Win    11 Ctop   12 ---
    STL
 15 STL    16 IBM    17 Win    18 Ctop   19 ---
 22 OOA    23 CSF    24 Win    25 WallSt 26 ---
    STL
 29holiday 30 ---    31 Win

(The STL study group is on Mondays, thru May 22.
Two meetings/night (STL and OOA) on May 8 and 22.)


       Draft    June  1995     Draft

    Mon       Tue       Wed       Thu       Fri
                                1 Gen     2 ---
  5 ObjExpo 6 c2c++   7 ObjExpo 8 ObjExpo 9 ---
 12 OOA    13 c2c++  14 Win    15 Ctop   16 ---
 19 ---    20 ---    21 Win    22 Ctop   23 ---
 26 OOA    27 CSF    28 Win    29 ???    30 ---

Gen    = General Meetings
         May 4   = Thomas Keffer, Nathan Myers (Rogue Wave)
         June 1  = Bjarne Stroustrup (AT&T Bell Labs)

c2c++  = Moving from C to C++ study group (intro C++)
CSF    = C++ Street Fight study group     (advanced C++)
Ctop   = C++ and C Topics study group
OOA    = Object Oriented Analysis & Design study group
STL    = Standard Template Library study group
WallSt = Wall St Financials study group
Win    = Windows API programming study group

IBM    = Special Event: IBM VisualAge C++ (CSet++)
         Josee Lajoie (IBM Canada),  Dale Nilsson (IBM North Carolina)


--
Jim Fleming            /|\      Unir Corporation       Unir Technology, Inc.
%Techno Cat I        /  | \     One Naperville Plaza   184 Shuman Blvd. #100
Penn's Landing      /   |  \    Naperville, IL 60563   Naperville, IL 60563
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British Virgin Islands__|______ 1-708-305-3277 (FAX)   1-708-305-0600
                 \__/-------\__/       e-mail: jim.fleming@bytes.com
Smooth Sailing on Cruising C+@amarans  ftp: 199.3.34.12 <-----stargate----+
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