In article <3o8rbr$b6v@silver.jba.co.uk> JdeBP%utopium@jba.co.uk writes:

> :                                                     (You can also purchase
> : a paper copy from ANSI. Details will be published here when they are
> : available.)

> Does this apply to people outside the U.S., though ?

As far as I know, ANSI will sell copies to anyone in the world.
I imagine that they will require payment either by credit
card or by a check made out in US Dollars payable through
a US bank.  I will try to find out for sure.
--
    --Andrew Koenig
      ark@research.att.com

In <D81yJ8.320@research.att.com>, ark@research.att.com (Andrew Koenig) writes:

>As far as I know, ANSI will sell copies to anyone in the world.
>I imagine that they will require payment either by credit
>card or by a check made out in US Dollars payable through
>a US bank.  I will try to find out for sure.

 Andrew,

  Please do check into this as I'd much prefer a book copy of
the document (double sided & three ring binder ). I just called up my printers
to ask for a quote (which I should receive tomorrow) so I'll see what my
costs will be to get one with dividers, etc.. Meanwhile, regarding the rights
to copy the book - can you tell me if it would be fair-use ( i.e. ok with you )
if I had my printer make several copies of the draft and let people pick them
up at cost? I'd be able to get a cheaper rate if I could have the printer make
multiple copies. Obviously, I wouldn't be making a profit, just helping out other
C++ folks and saving (hopefully) us all some money.
 thanx & later,

  Ben Scherrey
  Proteus Technologies, Inc.

Andrew Koenig (ark@research.att.com) wrote:
: As far as I know, ANSI will sell copies to anyone in the world.
: I imagine that they will require payment either by credit
: card or by a check made out in US Dollars payable through
: a US bank.  I will try to find out for sure.

Many thanks to Andrew and all of the people who e-mailed me with offers
of help to assist me in getting hold of a printed copy.

Some confusion seems to have been interjected into what was a very simple
announcement. The individual injecting the willful confusion is known here
for muddying these waters with irrational allegations which are unconnected
with the real world.

It might help if I explain a few things.

The term "C++ Committee" is shorthand for two different groups with
overlapping membership which meet together and which will jointly
produce a single common standard. The ANSI group is formally known as
X3J16. The ISO group is formally known as SC22/WG21, and in ISO
terminology is called a "Working Group". ("WG21" means "Working Group 21".)

ANSI has administrative and procedural requirements which differ from
those of ISO. One difference is that ANSI requires a public-review
period and ISO has no such public review. ISO national members submit
comments derived from whatever sources they see fit.  ANSI X3J16 serves
as the Technical Advisory Group to the U.S. representative to ISO WG21.
(It's slightly more complicated than that, but I don't want to bog down
in more detail than is necessary.) X3J16 will use input from the public
comment period to help formulate its comments to ISO.

The C++ Committee has produced a new version of its "Working Paper" every
four months since its inception. Each such version, or draft, is a snapshot
of the work done so far. A recent draft was submitted to ISO as the
"Committee Draft", an ISO term for a particular milestone. It is roughly
equivalent in software development to a "feature freeze". It means the
committee believes that further changes are likely to be only in the
details. It does not mean that significant changes are disallowed by any
rule, but only that the committee is at that point satisfied with the
form and content.

The term "Draft Standard" at one time had a specific meaning in ANSI
terminology, relating to a particular ANSI milestone. I believe that
the term is less well-defined now, particularly as regards an ANSI "Type I"
(international) committee like X3J16. The C++ Committee working
paper has passed ISO CD status, and is believed by the Committee to be
suitable for release as the C++ Standard -- or as close as we have been
able to make it so far. This is the draft standard, or working paper,
or committee draft (as it is variously known) which has been made
available on an FTP site. In the past, such drafts for public comment
have been available only in printed form, purchased from ANSI. But you can
get an electronic copy for only the cost of the FTP. (You can also purchase
a paper copy from ANSI. Details will be published here when they are
available.)

The Committee and ANSI and ISO all recognize that despite the best efforts
of a lot of talented and hard-working people, there are undoubtedly some
errors, contradictions, and omissions yet to be dealt with, as well as phrasing
which seemed clear to those who wrote it but might not seem clear to others.

The ANSI public-comment period provides the opportunity for many other
people to review the draft and catch these problems before it is published
in final form. It is also possible that a non-committee reviewer might make
a suggestion for an addition, deletion, or change not previously thought of
by committee members, and which is worth incorporating. ANSI has specific
procedures for dealing with public comments, which are currently being
established. Once they are established, the procedures will be published
in comp.std.c++. In the mean time, the official version of the draft which
was submitted to ISO and to ANSI has been made available for FTP now,
instead of incurring further delay.

---
Steve Clamage, stephen.clamage@eng.sun.com

According to Steve Clamage <clamage@Eng.Sun.COM>:
> In the mean time, the official version of the draft which
> was submitted to ISO and to ANSI has been made available for FTP now,
       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> instead of incurring further delay.
>
> ---
> Steve Clamage, stephen.clamage@eng.sun.com
>
>


Where, Steve?


Pete

According to Peter Berdeklis <peter@chinook.physics.utoronto.ca>:
> According to Steve Clamage <clamage@Eng.Sun.COM>:
> > In the mean time, the official version of the draft which
> > was submitted to ISO and to ANSI has been made available for FTP now,
>        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > instead of incurring further delay.
> >
> > ---
> > Steve Clamage, stephen.clamage@eng.sun.com
> >
> >
>
>
> Where, Steve?
>
>
> Pete
>
>


Nevermind.  I missed The Announcement (I'm so ashamed :-), but found
it in my old news.

For those of you who also missed it, try ftp at

 research.att.com dist/c++std/WP



Pete

Steve Clamage (clamage@Eng.Sun.COM) wrote:
: Some confusion seems to have been interjected into what was a very simple
: announcement. The individual injecting the willful confusion is known here
: for muddying these waters with irrational allegations which are unconnected
: with the real world.

My first reaction was "For goodness' sake, twit him.", but upon reflection,
I noted that you would never have posted this explanation had Old Pussy not
made a nuisance of himself ...

: ANSI has administrative and procedural requirements which differ from
: those of ISO. One difference is that ANSI requires a public-review
: period and ISO has no such public review. ISO national members submit
: comments derived from whatever sources they see fit.  ANSI X3J16 serves
: as the Technical Advisory Group to the U.S. representative to ISO WG21.
: (It's slightly more complicated than that, but I don't want to bog down
: in more detail than is necessary.) X3J16 will use input from the public
: comment period to help formulate its comments to ISO.

One question.  I'm over here in the U.K..  Can I go to BSI and say "I'm
very interested in the draft C++ standard, do you have a copy?" ?  It seems
that since this public comment process is merely an ANSIism, which
contributes towards ANSI's eventual submission to ISO (in its role as
technical advisor), my national standards body (BSI) can quite legitimately
say "well, the U.S. representative hasn't submitted anything to ISO yet, so
we cannot let you have a copy of something that doesn't exist", and ANSI can
quite legitimately say "contact your national standards body".

Believe it or not, all that I want is a printed copy of the document that
has just been put up for review, to read.  I don't have a PostScript
printer, and Ghostscript doesn't like the fonts that you use.

My first thought was to ask BSI, but I *strongly* suspect that the situation
will be as above.  Any suggestions ?  Anyone willing to print out a copy even
(I'm prepared to pay reasonable paper costs and so forth) ?

:                                                     (You can also purchase
: a paper copy from ANSI. Details will be published here when they are
: available.)

Does this apply to people outside the U.S., though ?