Jim Fleming (jim.fleming@bytes.com) wrote:
: Is this going to be at the meeting on Nocember 5-10, 1995
: in Japan hosted by ITSCJ and Keio University?
: If yes, isn't this a bit of a hardship for this important
: vote to be held half-way around the world?

That all depends on where you start from.  To me, the US is nearly halfway
around the world.  Haven't you noticed that there is life outside the US?

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John English                    | Thoughts for the day:
Dept. of Computing              | - People who live in windowed environments
University of Brighton          |   shouldn't cast pointers

Can someone here forward me or repost a copy of the article by Bjarne,
about how to talk to "flamers" in a dignified manner and how to constructively
contribute to the standards process?

I missed this one. Thanks.

//Mohan
--
"Most of an angel is in the inside and most of a person is on the outside"
Mohan Pakkurti, pmohan@cadence.com                                   -Anna

:: All opinions expressed in this posting are mine and my employer does not
:: necessarily endorse them.

--
"Most of an angel is in the inside and most of a person is on the outside"
Mohan Pakkurti, pmohan@cadence.com                                   -Anna

:: All opinions expressed in this posting are mine and my employer does not
:: necessarily endorse them.

In article <3n3imk$no9@News1.mcs.com>,
Jim Fleming <jim.fleming@bytes.com> wrote:
>@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
>My questions have been consistent and clear.
>1. Who benefits from the C++ standard?
>2. Who is working to force this down our throats?
>3. Why are they doing this?
>4. Have they considered comments and changed anything?
>5. Is the ANSI process being abused?
>6. Do they really want other people's opinions?
>7. When is C++ going to deliver on reuse?
>8. When will C++ programs compile on various compilers?
>9. When are people going to wake up to what is happening?

Mr Phlemming,

1) Have you stopped beating your wife?
2) Have you stopped beating your children?
3) Have you stopped playing with yourself?
4) Have you stopped picking your nose?
5) Who benefits from your consistant and persistant attempts to disrupt
   and derail this newsgroup?
6) Where were you on the morning of April 19th?
7) Have you ever been a member of a paramilitary group?
8) What did you do with all the fertilizer that you haven't already
   spread around this newgroup?
9) What is your favorite color?

(Don't worry folks.  If Mr. Phlemming wants a `questions arms race' I'll
make sure he get's one.)

P.S.  We can only hope that he will become confused and answer incorrectly
on the last question. :-)

--

-- Ron Guilmette, Sunnyvale, CA ---------- RG Consulting -------------------
---- E-mail: rfg@segfault.us.com ----------- Purveyors of Compiler Test ----
---- finger: rfg@rahul.net ----------------- Suites and Bullet-Proof Shoes -

In article <3n9ida$60q@news.infoserve.net>, dsh@unix.infoserve.net says...
>
>In article <3n49p3$3qg@News1.mcs.com>, jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim Fleming)
says:
>>
>>In article <3n47as$q93@tango.cs.wustl.edu>, schmidt@tango.cs.wustl.edu
>>says...
>>>
>>>In article <3n45hk$3qg@News1.mcs.com>,
>
>.. deleted
>
>>>Hey Jim, are "10 top" lists going to become a standard part of your
>>>USENET comedy act?
>>>
>>>        Doug
>>
>>Not necessarily but wait till you see our "pet" C+@ "tricks"....
>>
>
>Don't you mean "stupid pet" C+@ "tricks"....
>

We will let David handle those...

--
Jim Fleming            /|\      Unir Corporation       Unir Technology, Inc.
%Techno Cat I        /  | \     One Naperville Plaza   184 Shuman Blvd. #100
Penn's Landing      /   |  \    Naperville, IL 60563   Naperville, IL 60563
East End, Tortola  |____|___\   1-708-505-5801         1-800-222-UNIR(8647)
British Virgin Islands__|______ 1-708-305-3277 (FAX)   1-708-305-0600
                 \__/-------\__/       e-mail: jim.fleming@bytes.com
Smooth Sailing on Cruising C+@amarans  ftp: 199.3.34.12 <-----stargate----+
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\____to the end of the OuterNet_|

In article <3n49p3$3qg@News1.mcs.com>, jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim Fleming) says:
>
>In article <3n47as$q93@tango.cs.wustl.edu>, schmidt@tango.cs.wustl.edu
>says...
>>
>>In article <3n45hk$3qg@News1.mcs.com>,

.. deleted

>>Hey Jim, are "10 top" lists going to become a standard part of your
>>USENET comedy act?
>>
>>        Doug
>
>Not necessarily but wait till you see our "pet" C+@ "tricks"....
>

Don't you mean "stupid pet" C+@ "tricks"....

In article <MATT.95Apr20113632@physics10.berkeley.edu>,
Matt Austern <matt@physics.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>Only if you have a compile that is able to handle the STL.  I haven't
>yet seen any compilers that can compile all of the STL, and very few
>that can compile even a decent subset.

 Oh? I have two compilers that can. Borland 4.0 and
Metaware 3.11 work with slightly modified versions of the PD STL
implementation. The "real" STL includes passing templates
to templates, partial specialisations, template overloading,
and member templates, none of which are available to me
at present, but the PD Stl doesn't use any of these features
and still permits a significant portable subset of STL to
be used right now.

 I expect the EDG compiler (available for Linux at least)
supports most of STL since John Spicer "heads" the template
group of the committee.

 I can't speak of other vendors but I can say that
enough of STL is available right now for me to start using
it heavily.

 There are also at least two commercial (supported)
STL implementations and I guess the suppliers of these can
provide details of which compilers and operating environments
are supported by their products, and perhaps what fraction
of the developing C++ Standard is adhered to and how to
work around conformance limitations imposed by existing
compilers.

 Yes, it IS a pain to get some things working.
But have a go -- and hassle your compiler vendor
if you cannot compile STL correctly. That is one of the
major advantages of STL -- it is a pretty good
"conformance test" for the template and type facilities
of a compiler -- one whose correctness is a bit harder
for the vendor to argue about :-)


--
        JOHN (MAX) SKALLER,         INTERNET:maxtal@suphys.physics.su.oz.au
 Maxtal Pty Ltd,
        81A Glebe Point Rd, GLEBE   Mem: SA IT/9/22,SC22/WG21
        NSW 2037, AUSTRALIA     Phone: 61-2-566-2189

In article <KANZE.95Apr20165529@slsvhdt.us-es.sel.de> kanze@us-es.sel.de (James Kanze US/ESC 60/3/141 #40763) writes:

> |> >7. When is C++ going to deliver on reuse?
>
> |> That pretty much requires a standard first, which is in progress.
>
> I think companies like Rogue Wave would beg to differ from you here.
> And STL is certainly a nice bit of code reuse.

Only if you have a compile that is able to handle the STL.  I haven't
yet seen any compilers that can compile all of the STL, and very few
that can compile even a decent subset.

I agree with the first comment: there can't be reuse without
portability, and it's very hard to write portable C++ code in
the absence of a standard.
--
Matt Austern          matt@physics.berkeley.edu
http://dogbert.lbl.gov/~matt

In article 95Apr20165529@slsvhdt.us-es.sel.de, kanze@us-es.sel.de (James Kanze US/ESC 60/3/141 #40763) writes:
>In article <3n3n03$nfu@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> clamage@Eng.Sun.COM
>(Steve Clamage) writes:
>
>    [Concerning Microsoft's C++ activities...]
>|> They are not driving the standardization effort, and have
>|> not had a major presence on the C++ committee.
>
>I'm not sure what you mean by being "a major presence".  It is true
>that they generally send less representatives than some other
>companies.  But from what little I've seen, their contribution has
>been important, at least in the core group.

My comment was probably ill-considered. Martin O'Riordan attended meetings
regularly as the Microsoft rep, and certainly made significant contributions
to the standards work. Since that time, attendance at meetings by
Microsoft reps has been somewhat spotty, with different people attending
different meetings. I guess I was referring to lack of continuity, which
is not to say their reps haven't made valuable contribution.

---
Steve Clamage, stephen.clamage@eng.sun.com

In article <3n698s$8o6@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM>, clamage@Eng.Sun.COM says...
>
>In article 95Apr20165529@slsvhdt.us-es.sel.de, kanze@us-es.sel.de (James
Kanze US/ESC 60/3
>/141 #40763) writes:
>>In article <3n3n03$nfu@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> clamage@Eng.Sun.COM
>>(Steve Clamage) writes:
>>
>>    [Concerning Microsoft's C++ activities...]
>>|> They are not driving the standardization effort, and have
>>|> not had a major presence on the C++ committee.
>>
>>I'm not sure what you mean by being "a major presence".  It is true
>>that they generally send less representatives than some other
>>companies.  But from what little I've seen, their contribution has
>>been important, at least in the core group.
>
>My comment was probably ill-considered. Martin O'Riordan attended meetings
>regularly as the Microsoft rep, and certainly made significant
contributions
>to the standards work. Since that time, attendance at meetings by
>Microsoft reps has been somewhat spotty, with different people attending
>different meetings. I guess I was referring to lack of continuity, which
>is not to say their reps haven't made valuable contribution.
>
>---
>Steve Clamage, stephen.clamage@eng.sun.com
>
>

Holy Cow!

Mr. Steve has finally recognized Microsoft's importance in the C++
movement. Pretty soon he will be kissing Bill's glasses.... :)

--
Jim Fleming            /|\      Unir Corporation       Unir Technology, Inc.
%Techno Cat I        /  | \     One Naperville Plaza   184 Shuman Blvd. #100
Penn's Landing      /   |  \    Naperville, IL 60563   Naperville, IL 60563
East End, Tortola  |____|___\   1-708-505-5801         1-800-222-UNIR(8647)
British Virgin Islands__|______ 1-708-305-3277 (FAX)   1-708-305-0600
                 \__/-------\__/       e-mail: jim.fleming@bytes.com
Smooth Sailing on Cruising C+@amarans  ftp: 199.3.34.12 <-----stargate----+
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\____to the end of the OuterNet_|

In article <MATT.95Apr20113632@physics10.berkeley.edu>
matt@physics10.berkeley.edu (Matt Austern) writes:

|> In article <KANZE.95Apr20165529@slsvhdt.us-es.sel.de> kanze@us-es.sel.de (James Kanze US/ESC 60/3/141 #40763) writes:

|> > |> >7. When is C++ going to deliver on reuse?
|> >
|> > |> That pretty much requires a standard first, which is in progress.
|> >
|> > I think companies like Rogue Wave would beg to differ from you here.
|> > And STL is certainly a nice bit of code reuse.

|> Only if you have a compile that is able to handle the STL.  I haven't
|> yet seen any compilers that can compile all of the STL, and very few
|> that can compile even a decent subset.

So replace Rogue Wave with the Booch Components (which are also Rogue
Wave now).  They both compile under a large variety of systems.

|> I agree with the first comment: there can't be reuse without
|> portability, and it's very hard to write portable C++ code in
|> the absence of a standard.

It depends.  I just wrote under 5000 lines of code, and got a 30
Megabyte executable.  All of the rest came from existing applications.
So the reuse is in house, and we are using the same compiler.  It
still saved me an awful lot of time.  (The original project was
estimated at two man years.  Reuse of substantial amounts of existing
code allowed me to do it in three man months.)

Of course, until there is a standard, such cases will be exceptional.
But they do exist.  (And you can write portable code today.  Rogue
Wave have done it.  But it is a lot harder than it should be.)
--
James Kanze         Tel.: (+33) 88 14 49 00        email: kanze@gabi-soft.fr
GABI Software, Sarl., 8 rue des Francs-Bourgeois, F-67000 Strasbourg, France
Conseils en informatique industrielle --
                              -- Beratung in industrieller Datenverarbeitung

jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim Fleming) writes:

>In article <3n3e97$l0h@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM>, clamage@Eng.Sun.COM says...
>>
>>
>>A person can take over or subvert a thread or newsgroup only if others
>>respond to the flames.
>>
>>As a matter of personal policy, I avoid (or I try to avoid) responding
>>once it becomes clear that the flamer is only flaming and not providing
>>reasonable comments or questions. A flamer who gets no response (and I
mean
>>NO response) will eventually just go away. Or, even better, will perhaps
>>modify the content of his or her posts to be more acceptable.
>>---
>>Steve Clamage, stephen.clamage@eng.sun.com
>>
>>
>
>It seems that you are doing the Flaming..... :)

I disagree.  Steve's statement is completely reasonable and rational,
whereas your posts have been mostly rambling, incoherent attacks with
references to conspiracies that apparently only you are aware of.  Your
posts have recently prompted me to read alt.usenet.kooks, just so that I
could get a better grasp on personalities like yours.  Apparently one
common attribute of all of the more infamous "kooks" is that they do have
moments of lucidity, and even brilliance, but for whatever reason, tend to
wash out their own brilliance with a barrage of totally wacky, irrational,
irrelevant flames and diatribes.  In this respect, you fit the kook mold
to the T.

>
>@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
>My questions have been consistent and clear.
>
>1. Who benefits from the C++ standard?

If you have to ask this question, then you don't understand the need for
standards.  Every user of a compiler that claims to be a C++ compiler
benefits by the existence of a C++ standard.  The existence of a C++
standard is totally independent of the effort to standardize other
languages, and does not, in and of itself, prevent other languages from
being used and standardized.  If I choose to use both C++ and another
language, the odds are very high that the other language will also either
already have an ANSI/ISO specification, or be in the process of obtaining
one, since to me, the existence of a concrete, universally recognized
standard is crucial.

>
>2. Who is working to force this down our throats?

Absolutely no one is working to force C++ down anybody's throats.  A large
number of people are working very hard towards finishing the
standardization process.  They are doing this because they know that the
C++ community will benefit from the existence of a standard.

>3. Why are they doing this?

Are you asking a question like "How long have you been beating your wife?"
 If so, please stop asking such ridiculous questions.  The vast majority
of readers of comp.std.c++ are too rational to fall to such stupid tricks.
 If you are asking why people are working to achieve a standard, then the
answers to 2 and 3 above should be sufficient.

>4. Have they considered comments and changed anything?

Most definitely.  Consider, for example, the bool data type.  This was
requested and debated extensively here in comp.std.c++, and the committee
ultimately accepted an extension.

>5. Is the ANSI process being abused?

It doesn't appear that way to me.  For every complaint I hear about the
committee, there seems to be an opposing anti-complaint.  Bjarne has
listed several examples of this: Complaint: "The language is too large."
Anticomplaint: "The language needs features x, y and z."  Complaint: "The
committee is taking too long."  Anticomplaint: "The committee is rushing
and not thinking some issues through well enough."  On the whole, as a
serious C++ user, I am pleased with the committee's results.

>6. Do they really want other people's opinions?

My impression has been that any well-thought out proposal that takes into
account important issues such as backwards compatibility will be
considered.  It is also my impression that only a very small number of
proposals will be accepted, and that the window for this happening, if not
already closed, will be closed very soon.  I think this is a good thing.
I think it is more important to have a completed standard than to have a
perfect standard.

>7. When is C++ going to deliver on reuse?

For me and many others, it already has.  It certainly goes much farther
than any other language in existence today.  Note that I am *NOT* saying
that I think that C++ is clearly superior in providing a feature set that
supports reusability.  Reusability comes from many factors.  Language
support for reusability is important, but having access to a large body of
public domain or inexpensive libraries of code is ultimately more
important.  C++ delivers on these two features better than any other
language.

>8. When will C++ programs compile on various compilers?

They already do.  Over the past three years I have used no less than 8
different C++ compilers.  With the exception of templates, portability
across these compilers has been excellent.  It is also clear that the
vendors for all of the compilers I have used are working very hard to
conform to the draft standard.  Template support and portability, for
example, is much better now than it was a year ago, and all C++ vendors
for compilers I use are working very hard to fully support the Standard
Template Library.  I expect template portability to be excellent within
the next 12 months.

>9. When are people going to wake up to what is happening?

Wake up to what?  Your conspiracy theories?  I don't have any interest in
such things, and I expect the vast majority of the C++ community feels the
same way.  C++ is extremely popular because it meets the needs of the
market better than any other language.  The market doesn't give a damn
about having perfect languages, it wants a language and set of tools that
both protects existing investments and provides for increases in
productivity.  C++ does that remarkably well.

>10. Will C++ become the PL/I of AT&T and Microsoft?

Who cares?

Jim Lloyd, Independent Software Consultant
afcjlloyd@aol.com -or- jim_lloyd@powertalk.apple.com
My opinions are independent of those my clients

In article <3n3n03$nfu@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> clamage@Eng.Sun.COM
(Steve Clamage) writes:

|> >7. When is C++ going to deliver on reuse?

|> That pretty much requires a standard first, which is in progress.

I think companies like Rogue Wave would beg to differ from you here.
And STL is certainly a nice bit of code reuse.

But of course, a standard *will* make this much easier.

    [Concerning Microsoft's C++ activities...]
|> They are not driving the standardization effort, and have
|> not had a major presence on the C++ committee.

I'm not sure what you mean by being "a major presence".  It is true
that they generally send less representatives than some other
companies.  But from what little I've seen, their contribution has
been important, at least in the core group.
--
James Kanze         Tel.: (+33) 88 14 49 00        email: kanze@gabi-soft.fr
GABI Software, Sarl., 8 rue des Francs-Bourgeois, F-67000 Strasbourg, France
Conseils en informatique industrielle --
                              -- Beratung in industrieller Datenverarbeitung

In article 3qg@News1.mcs.com, jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim Fleming) writes:
>
>When is the proposed "merge" with the C Standard going to start?
>
>If the C++ standard is delayed, wouldn't this cause a delay in the
>merged standard?

What merged standard? None of the people I know on the C committee or
the C++ committee have plans for a merged standard. I've never heard
it mentioned by anyone but you. Personally, I don't see why it would
be either necessary or desirable.

>Are the same people on the C++ committee(s) as the C standards
>committee?

A very small number (two, I think, maybe a few more) of those who attend C++
committee meetings regularly also attend C committee meetings regularly.
(Many of the members of each committee are just "observers", meaning that
they follow the progress of the committee, but do not attend meetings.)
Someone who has the time and interest could compare the membership lists
for matching names. To find out about active membership overlap, you
would have to get the minutes of each committee meeting and check the
attendance lists.

Now, before you start whining about how the lists are "a closely-guarded
secret", please remember that I have told you several times you how you can
get copies. You can get copies of any of the committee documents (including
membership lists and minutes) by writing to ANSI, or by joining the committee.

I'll get you started: Sun is an active member of both committees, but there
is no overlap among the people representing Sun on the two committees.
---
Steve Clamage, stephen.clamage@eng.sun.com

In article <3n47as$q93@tango.cs.wustl.edu>, schmidt@tango.cs.wustl.edu
says...
>
>In article <3n45hk$3qg@News1.mcs.com>,
>Jim Fleming <jim.fleming@bytes.com> wrote:
>++ How about this for starters? In order of financial gain.
>++
>++      1. Bill Gates         Microsoft
>++      2. Bjarne Stroustrup  AT&T Bell Laboratories
>++      3. Tom Plum           Plum Hall
>++      4. P. J. Plauger      Dr. Dobb's Journal
>++      5. Stan Lippman       The C++ Report
>++      6. Rob Murray         Quantitative Data Systems
>++      7. Scott Meyers       Consultant
>++      8. Robert Allen       AT&T
>++      9. Richard Friedman   SIGS Publications
>++      10.Cay Horstmann      Horstmann Software
>
>Darn, and I'm so disappointed I didn't make that list...
>
You claim to be a poor University professor that does free C++
consulting for Fortune 500 companies. If you started charging
we could probably give you #10.

>Hey Jim, are "10 top" lists going to become a standard part of your
>USENET comedy act?
>
>        Doug

Not necessarily but wait till you see our "pet" C+@ "tricks"....

--
Jim Fleming            /|\      Unir Corporation       Unir Technology, Inc.
%Techno Cat I        /  | \     One Naperville Plaza   184 Shuman Blvd. #100
Penn's Landing      /   |  \    Naperville, IL 60563   Naperville, IL 60563
East End, Tortola  |____|___\   1-708-505-5801         1-800-222-UNIR(8647)
British Virgin Islands__|______ 1-708-305-3277 (FAX)   1-708-305-0600
                 \__/-------\__/       e-mail: jim.fleming@bytes.com
Smooth Sailing on Cruising C+@amarans  ftp: 199.3.34.12 <-----stargate----+
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\____to the end of the OuterNet_|

A person can take over or subvert a thread or newsgroup only if others
respond to the flames.

As a matter of personal policy, I avoid (or I try to avoid) responding
once it becomes clear that the flamer is only flaming and not providing
reasonable comments or questions. A flamer who gets no response (and I mean
NO response) will eventually just go away. Or, even better, will perhaps
modify the content of his or her posts to be more acceptable.
---
Steve Clamage, stephen.clamage@eng.sun.com

In article no9@News1.mcs.com, jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim Fleming) writes:
>
>My questions have been consistent and clear.

I believe the following questions have all been answered more than once,
but here goes...

>1. Who benefits from the C++ standard?

Vendors and users of C++ products, including compilers.

>2. Who is working to force this down our throats?
>3. Why are they doing this?

No one that I know of. Working on the standards committee is voluntary,
and use of the standard is likewise voluntary. Standards exist which
are completely ignored (e.g. ANSI BASIC), which are popular only in some
circles (e.g. ISO Pascal), and which are widely used and appreciated. It
remains to be seen into which category ISO C++ will fall, but I predict it
will be widely used and appreciated (by C++ product vendors and users).

>4. Have they considered comments and changed anything?

Who is "they"? If you mean the ANSI and ISO C++ committees, yes indeed.
Hundreds of comments have been considered, from inside and outside the
committee. Many have resulted in changes.

>5. Is the ANSI process being abused?

Not in my estimation. I would say it is being used in exactly the way and
for exacatly the purpose it is intended. That purpose is to foster
consensus and create a language standard which will be considered to be
at least adquate by as many in the C++ world as possible.

>6. Do they really want other people's opinions?

Who is "they"? If you mean the ANSI and ISO C++ committees, yes indeed.

>7. When is C++ going to deliver on reuse?

That pretty much requires a standard first, which is in progress.

>8. When will C++ programs compile on various compilers?

Since about 1990 I have been compiling moderated-sized programs (50,000+
lines) on multiple platforms using unrelated compilers from different
vendors, with little or no modification of source code. (Except to get
around compiler bugs, something which is not specific to C++.)

True portability requires a standard, which is in progress.

>9. When are people going to wake up to what is happening?

Start with yourself, Jim. You seem to be living in some imaginary
universe where TPC ("The Phone Company") stalks and devours the unwary.

>10. Will C++ become the PL/I of AT&T and Microsoft?

My crystal ball says no. Yours may differ. BTW, I truly don't understand
this sort of reference. AT&T doesn't make any money off C++ per se. It
was developed for internal use, and they use it internally (or so my
spies tell me). AT&T released the language description to the public,
but has sold off the former subsidiary which made commercial use of C++.
Microsoft has always been in a catch-up, not a leadership position, in
C++, in my estimation. They were very late with a C++ compiler, and until
recently lagged behind the market in C++ language features and compiler
dependability. They are not driving the standardization effort, and have
not had a major presence on the C++ committee. (I don't mean to denigrate
Microsoft by these comments, which represent only my impressions.)

---
Steve Clamage, stephen.clamage@eng.sun.com

In article <3n3n03$nfu@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM>, clamage@Eng.Sun.COM says...
>
>In article no9@News1.mcs.com, jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim Fleming) writes:
>>
>>My questions have been consistent and clear.
>
>I believe the following questions have all been answered more than once,
>but here goes...
>
>>1. Who benefits from the C++ standard?
>
>Vendors and users of C++ products, including compilers.

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Clarification: What individuals benefit most from the C++ standard?
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

>
>>2. Who is working to force this down our throats?
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

I think you missed one...

Can we get a list of people
on the ANSI committee?

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
>>3. Why are they doing this?
>
>No one that I know of. Working on the standards committee is voluntary,
>and use of the standard is likewise voluntary. Standards exist which
>are completely ignored (e.g. ANSI BASIC), which are popular only in some
>circles (e.g. ISO Pascal), and which are widely used and appreciated. It
>remains to be seen into which category ISO C++ will fall, but I predict it
>will be widely used and appreciated (by C++ product vendors and users).
>
>>4. Have they considered comments and changed anything?
>
>Who is "they"? If you mean the ANSI and ISO C++ committees, yes indeed.
>Hundreds of comments have been considered, from inside and outside the
>committee. Many have resulted in changes.
>
>>5. Is the ANSI process being abused?
>
>Not in my estimation. I would say it is being used in exactly the way and
>for exacatly the purpose it is intended. That purpose is to foster
>consensus and create a language standard which will be considered to be
>at least adquate by as many in the C++ world as possible.
>
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Is this your first ANSI experience?
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

>>6. Do they really want other people's opinions?
>
>Who is "they"? If you mean the ANSI and ISO C++ committees, yes indeed.
>
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Do you think any of the opinions will
matter and any changes will be made?
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

>>7. When is C++ going to deliver on reuse?
>
>That pretty much requires a standard first, which is in progress.
>
@@@@ Is any delivery date set? @@@@@@

>>8. When will C++ programs compile on various compilers?
>
>Since about 1990 I have been compiling moderated-sized programs (50,000+
>lines) on multiple platforms using unrelated compilers from different
>vendors, with little or no modification of source code. (Except to get
>around compiler bugs, something which is not specific to C++.)
>
>True portability requires a standard, which is in progress.
>
@@@@ Is any delivery date set? @@@@@@

>>9. When are people going to wake up to what is happening?
>
>Start with yourself, Jim. You seem to be living in some imaginary
>universe where TPC ("The Phone Company") stalks and devours the unwary.
>
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
You are obviously out of the loop.
I can understand your confusion.
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

>>10. Will C++ become the PL/I of AT&T and Microsoft?
>
>My crystal ball says no. Yours may differ. BTW, I truly don't understand
>this sort of reference. AT&T doesn't make any money off C++ per se. It
>was developed for internal use, and they use it internally (or so my
>spies tell me). AT&T released the language description to the public,
>but has sold off the former subsidiary which made commercial use of C++.
>Microsoft has always been in a catch-up, not a leadership position, in
>C++, in my estimation. They were very late with a C++ compiler, and until
>recently lagged behind the market in C++ language features and compiler
>dependability. They are not driving the standardization effort, and have
>not had a major presence on the C++ committee. (I don't mean to denigrate
>Microsoft by these comments, which represent only my impressions.)
>
>---
>Steve Clamage, stephen.clamage@eng.sun.com
>
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
If that is the case then why would AT&T indicate that the
reason they did not want C+@ to be made available was because
Microsoft did not want that?

Is that because (as you indicate) Microsoft is behind on C++
and could not possibly catch up there and also get up to
speed on C+@?

Why would AT&T want to give Microsoft the "call" in language
development?
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

--
Jim Fleming            /|\      Unir Corporation       Unir Technology, Inc.
%Techno Cat I        /  | \     One Naperville Plaza   184 Shuman Blvd. #100
Penn's Landing      /   |  \    Naperville, IL 60563   Naperville, IL 60563
East End, Tortola  |____|___\   1-708-505-5801         1-800-222-UNIR(8647)
British Virgin Islands__|______ 1-708-305-3277 (FAX)   1-708-305-0600
                 \__/-------\__/       e-mail: jim.fleming@bytes.com
Smooth Sailing on Cruising C+@amarans  ftp: 199.3.34.12 <-----stargate----+
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\____to the end of the OuterNet_|

In article <3n3imk$no9@News1.mcs.com>,
Jim Fleming <jim.fleming@bytes.com> wrote:
<more "have you stopped beating your wife" questions about C++ deleted>

Hey Jim, you forgot one:

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

0. Will Jim's new supply of hemorrhoid medication arrive
   in time to relieve the swelling in his brain?

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

I'm willing to start up a collection for a lifetime supply of Prep-H
if it will help to calm you down...

 Doug
--
Dr. Douglas C. Schmidt    (schmidt@cs.wustl.edu)
Department of Computer Science, Washington University
St. Louis, MO 63130. Work #: (314) 935-7538; FAX #: (314) 935-7302
http://www.cs.wustl.edu/~schmidt/

In article no9@News1.mcs.com, jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim Fleming) writes:
>In article <3n3n03$nfu@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM>, clamage@Eng.Sun.COM says...
>>
>>>1. Who benefits from the C++ standard?
>>
>>Vendors and users of C++ products, including compilers.
>
>Clarification: What individuals benefit most from the C++ standard?
>
Anyone who uses a programming language or produces products related to
that language benefits from an accepted standard. In the absence of an
accepted (i.e., popular) standard, you cannot write portable code,
supply portable libraries, and so on. Hence my original answer.

I suppose you want an answer like "Company X has been lying in wait
for the standard so as to make a financial killing, and to blow away
all the competition." That just isn't the case. The standard is
a rising tide which will lift all boats. The only ones who won't benefit
from it are those who choose to ignore it. All the C++ product vendors
I know of, and many just plain users besides, eagerly await the completion
of the standards process, and many of them contribute actively to it.

>Can we get a list of people
>on the ANSI committee?

Well, you could write ANSI and ask for one. Or join the committee.

>>>5. Is the ANSI process being abused?
>>
>>Not in my estimation. I would say it is being used in exactly the way and
>>for exactly the purpose it is intended. That purpose is to foster
>>consensus and create a language standard which will be considered to be
>>at least adquate by as many in the C++ world as possible.
>>
>Is this your first ANSI experience?

No.

>>>6. Do they really want other people's opinions?
>>
>>Who is "they"? If you mean the ANSI and ISO C++ committees, yes indeed.
>>

>Do you think any of the opinions will
>matter and any changes will be made?

I know for a fact that outside opinions have mattered and changes have been
made in response to comments from people not on the committee. I participated
in evaluations of and voted in favor of some of them.

>>>7. When is C++ going to deliver on reuse?
>>
>>That pretty much requires a standard first, which is in progress.
>>
>Is any delivery date set?

There is a schedule. ISO and ANSI set up hoops that must be jumped through.
The first such hoop, voting on a Committee Draft for ISO, has already been
jumped through. This is kind of like a "feature freeze" in a product cycle.

The next hoop is the ANSI public comment period, which will commence shortly.
If all goes well, there will be a vote next November to submit a draft
for ISO member voting, which if accepted becomes the "Draft International
Standard" (DIS).

Allowing a second public comment period for ANSI, and that no significant
problems occur, and that the ISO National Bodies have no additional
significant objections, the DIS will be ready for submission as a
standard to ISO and to ANSI in 3rd quarter 1996.

What if things don't go well, or if significant objections occur? Then
more changes will be required and the standard will take longer.

---
Steve Clamage, stephen.clamage@eng.sun.com

In article <3n3p1h$no9@News1.mcs.com>,
Jim Fleming <jim.fleming@bytes.com> wrote:
:In article <3n3n03$nfu@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM>, clamage@Eng.Sun.COM says...
:>
:>In article no9@News1.mcs.com, jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim Fleming) writes:
:>>
:>>My questions have been consistent and clear.
:>
:>I believe the following questions have all been answered more than once,
:>but here goes...
:>
:>>1. Who benefits from the C++ standard?
:>
:>Vendors and users of C++ products, including compilers.
:
:@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
:Clarification: What individuals benefit most from the C++ standard?
:@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
:
Users who would like their programs to compile on multiple
compilers/platforms.  Class library creators, who would like to sell
their libraries to users of more than one compiler vendor.

:>
:>>2. Who is working to force this down our throats?
:@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
:
:I think you missed one...
:
:Can we get a list of people
:on the ANSI committee?
:
:@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

I, for one, don't feel anything is being forced down my throat.  I use C++
because I choose to, not because someone is forcing me to.

:>>3. Why are they doing this?
:>
:>No one that I know of. Working on the standards committee is voluntary,
:>and use of the standard is likewise voluntary. Standards exist which
:>are completely ignored (e.g. ANSI BASIC), which are popular only in some
:>circles (e.g. ISO Pascal), and which are widely used and appreciated. It
:>remains to be seen into which category ISO C++ will fall, but I predict it
:>will be widely used and appreciated (by C++ product vendors and users).
:>
:>>4. Have they considered comments and changed anything?
:>
:>Who is "they"? If you mean the ANSI and ISO C++ committees, yes indeed.
:>Hundreds of comments have been considered, from inside and outside the
:>committee. Many have resulted in changes.
:>
:>>5. Is the ANSI process being abused?
:>
:>Not in my estimation. I would say it is being used in exactly the way and
:>for exacatly the purpose it is intended. That purpose is to foster
:>consensus and create a language standard which will be considered to be
:>at least adquate by as many in the C++ world as possible.
:>
:@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
:Is this your first ANSI experience?
:@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

If you have evidence that something that is being done is wrong, then by
all means, let us know.  However, the implications you make with your
questions are getting quite old.  For example, your question above implies
that Mr. Clamage is inexperienced with respect to the abuses that
can be occuring, yet you don't have to list any examples of any abuses
because you have not stated that there are any...You just keep asking
questions that would lead one to believe that there are abuses.

In a recent trial, in which a friend of mine was a juror, the defendant,
representing himself, asked potential jurors if they had served in Vietnam.
The question implied that he was a Vietnam vet and was attempting to
find some bond between himself and the prospective juror.  However, he didn't
state that he was a vet and, as such, didn't lie by stating that he was.
Thus far, Mr. Flemming, I have seen zero statements from you that do anymore
than ask questions which may mislead the reader into believing something
that was never stated, just like the defendant in the above case.

:
:>>6. Do they really want other people's opinions?
:>
:>Who is "they"? If you mean the ANSI and ISO C++ committees, yes indeed.
:>
:@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
:Do you think any of the opinions will
:matter and any changes will be made?
:@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

I believe that Mr. Clamage had already claimed that other people's
opinions have already been considerd and that changes have already been made
based on those opinions.

:
:>>7. When is C++ going to deliver on reuse?
:>
:>That pretty much requires a standard first, which is in progress.
:>
:@@@@ Is any delivery date set? @@@@@@

Actually, I disagree with Mr. Clamage here...I have already reused
C++ code.  In my mind...it has deliverd.

:
:>>8. When will C++ programs compile on various compilers?
:>
:>Since about 1990 I have been compiling moderated-sized programs (50,000+
:>lines) on multiple platforms using unrelated compilers from different
:>vendors, with little or no modification of source code. (Except to get
:>around compiler bugs, something which is not specific to C++.)
:>
:>True portability requires a standard, which is in progress.
:>
:@@@@ Is any delivery date set? @@@@@@
:
:>>9. When are people going to wake up to what is happening?
:>
:>Start with yourself, Jim. You seem to be living in some imaginary
:>universe where TPC ("The Phone Company") stalks and devours the unwary.
:>
:@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
:You are obviously out of the loop.
:I can understand your confusion.
:@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Yes, and you would like to enlighten us, but that would mean that you would
actually have to state something factual.  I guess we'll just have to wait
until August.  I'm betting that AT&T's CEO will finally admit to being the
second gunman in the Kennedy assassination! ;-)

:
:>>10. Will C++ become the PL/I of AT&T and Microsoft?
:>
:>My crystal ball says no. Yours may differ. BTW, I truly don't understand
:>this sort of reference. AT&T doesn't make any money off C++ per se. It
:>was developed for internal use, and they use it internally (or so my
:>spies tell me). AT&T released the language description to the public,
:>but has sold off the former subsidiary which made commercial use of C++.
:>Microsoft has always been in a catch-up, not a leadership position, in
:>C++, in my estimation. They were very late with a C++ compiler, and until
:>recently lagged behind the market in C++ language features and compiler
:>dependability. They are not driving the standardization effort, and have
:>not had a major presence on the C++ committee. (I don't mean to denigrate
:>Microsoft by these comments, which represent only my impressions.)

My impression of Microsoft is that they don't care about keeping up with the
C++ standard draft, but are more interested in providing hooks into
Mircrosoft Windows specific features.

:>
:>---
:>Steve Clamage, stephen.clamage@eng.sun.com
:>
:@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
:If that is the case then why would AT&T indicate that the
:reason they did not want C+@ to be made available was because
:Microsoft did not want that?

I'm not aware of this indication...would you care to back up your
statement with some sources?

:
:Is that because (as you indicate) Microsoft is behind on C++
:and could not possibly catch up there and also get up to
:speed on C+@?
:
:Why would AT&T want to give Microsoft the "call" in language
:development?

Assuming your first statement to be accurate, why would Mr. Clamage know
what Microsoft's motives are?

It's possible that neither Mrcrosoft nor AT&T find C+@ to be commercially
viable.  I doubt anyone in this newsgroup could make that determination
because you have never posted any real information about C+@ despite
repeated requests.

--
Stephen Gevers
sg3235@shelob.sbc.com

In article <3n3thv$okf@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM>, clamage@Eng.Sun.COM says...
>
>In article no9@News1.mcs.com, jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim Fleming) writes:
>>In article <3n3n03$nfu@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM>, clamage@Eng.Sun.COM says...
>>>
>>>>1. Who benefits from the C++ standard?
>>>
>>>Vendors and users of C++ products, including compilers.
>>
>>Clarification: What individuals benefit most from the C++ standard?
>>
>Anyone who uses a programming language or produces products related to
>that language benefits from an accepted standard. In the absence of an
>accepted (i.e., popular) standard, you cannot write portable code,
>supply portable libraries, and so on. Hence my original answer.
>
>I suppose you want an answer like "Company X has been lying in wait
>for the standard so as to make a financial killing, and to blow away
>all the competition." That just isn't the case. The standard is
>a rising tide which will lift all boats. The only ones who won't benefit
>from it are those who choose to ignore it. All the C++ product vendors
>I know of, and many just plain users besides, eagerly await the completion
>of the standards process, and many of them contribute actively to it.
>

I was expecting a list of individuals (i.e. people).

How about this for starters? In order of financial gain.

 1. Bill Gates         Microsoft
 2. Bjarne Stroustrup  AT&T Bell Laboratories
 3. Tom Plum           Plum Hall
 4. P. J. Plauger      Dr. Dobb's Journal
 5. Stan Lippman       The C++ Report
 6. Rob Murray         Quantitative Data Systems
 7. Scott Meyers       Consultant
 8. Robert Allen       AT&T
 9. Richard Friedman   SIGS Publications
 10.Cay Horstmann      Horstmann Software


>>Can we get a list of people
>>on the ANSI committee?
>
>Well, you could write ANSI and ask for one. Or join the committee.
>

Why is this list such a closely guarded secret? In magazines like
The C++ Report they freely mention selected people who are on the
committee and the work they are doing. Why not provide the official
list so that everyone can see and appreciate *all* of the people that
are working to get this standard out the door?


>>>>5. Is the ANSI process being abused?
>>>
>>>Not in my estimation. I would say it is being used in exactly the way and
>>>for exactly the purpose it is intended. That purpose is to foster
>>>consensus and create a language standard which will be considered to be
>>>at least adquate by as many in the C++ world as possible.
>>>
>>Is this your first ANSI experience?
>
>No.
>
>>>>6. Do they really want other people's opinions?
>>>
>>>Who is "they"? If you mean the ANSI and ISO C++ committees, yes indeed.
>>>
>
>>Do you think any of the opinions will
>>matter and any changes will be made?
>
>I know for a fact that outside opinions have mattered and changes have been
>made in response to comments from people not on the committee. I
participated
>in evaluations of and voted in favor of some of them.
>
>>>>7. When is C++ going to deliver on reuse?
>>>
>>>That pretty much requires a standard first, which is in progress.
>>>
>>Is any delivery date set?
>
>There is a schedule. ISO and ANSI set up hoops that must be jumped through.
>The first such hoop, voting on a Committee Draft for ISO, has already been
>jumped through. This is kind of like a "feature freeze" in a product cycle.
>
>The next hoop is the ANSI public comment period, which will commence
shortly.
>If all goes well, there will be a vote next November to submit a draft
>for ISO member voting, which if accepted becomes the "Draft International
>Standard" (DIS).
>

Is this going to be at the meeting on Nocember 5-10, 1995
in Japan hosted by ITSCJ and Keio University?

If yes, isn't this a bit of a hardship for this important
vote to be held half-way around the world?

>Allowing a second public comment period for ANSI, and that no significant
>problems occur, and that the ISO National Bodies have no additional
>significant objections, the DIS will be ready for submission as a
>standard to ISO and to ANSI in 3rd quarter 1996.
>

When would that be approved?


>What if things don't go well, or if significant objections occur? Then
>more changes will be required and the standard will take longer.
>

Do you think there is any chance that the standard could take a few
more years?

When is the proposed "merge" with the C Standard going to start?

If the C++ standard is delayed, wouldn't this cause a delay in the
merged standard?

Are the same people on the C++ committee(s) as the C standards
committee?

>---
>Steve Clamage, stephen.clamage@eng.sun.com
>
>

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
I always like these guys that tell everyone not to post and
then proceed to violate their own guidelines.
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

--
Jim Fleming            /|\      Unir Corporation       Unir Technology, Inc.
%Techno Cat I        /  | \     One Naperville Plaza   184 Shuman Blvd. #100
Penn's Landing      /   |  \    Naperville, IL 60563   Naperville, IL 60563
East End, Tortola  |____|___\   1-708-505-5801         1-800-222-UNIR(8647)
British Virgin Islands__|______ 1-708-305-3277 (FAX)   1-708-305-0600
                 \__/-------\__/       e-mail: jim.fleming@bytes.com
Smooth Sailing on Cruising C+@amarans  ftp: 199.3.34.12 <-----stargate----+
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\____to the end of the OuterNet_|

In article <3n45hk$3qg@News1.mcs.com>,
Jim Fleming <jim.fleming@bytes.com> wrote:
++ How about this for starters? In order of financial gain.
++
++  1. Bill Gates         Microsoft
++  2. Bjarne Stroustrup  AT&T Bell Laboratories
++  3. Tom Plum           Plum Hall
++  4. P. J. Plauger      Dr. Dobb's Journal
++  5. Stan Lippman       The C++ Report
++  6. Rob Murray         Quantitative Data Systems
++  7. Scott Meyers       Consultant
++  8. Robert Allen       AT&T
++  9. Richard Friedman   SIGS Publications
++  10.Cay Horstmann      Horstmann Software

Darn, and I'm so disappointed I didn't make that list...

Hey Jim, are "10 top" lists going to become a standard part of your
USENET comedy act?

 Doug
--
Dr. Douglas C. Schmidt    (schmidt@cs.wustl.edu)
Department of Computer Science, Washington University
St. Louis, MO 63130. Work #: (314) 935-7538; FAX #: (314) 935-7302
http://www.cs.wustl.edu/~schmidt/

In article <3n3e97$l0h@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM>, clamage@Eng.Sun.COM says...
>
>
>A person can take over or subvert a thread or newsgroup only if others
>respond to the flames.
>
>As a matter of personal policy, I avoid (or I try to avoid) responding
>once it becomes clear that the flamer is only flaming and not providing
>reasonable comments or questions. A flamer who gets no response (and I mean
>NO response) will eventually just go away. Or, even better, will perhaps
>modify the content of his or her posts to be more acceptable.
>---
>Steve Clamage, stephen.clamage@eng.sun.com
>
>

It seems that you are doing the Flaming..... :)

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
My questions have been consistent and clear.

1. Who benefits from the C++ standard?

2. Who is working to force this down our throats?

3. Why are they doing this?

4. Have they considered comments and changed anything?

5. Is the ANSI process being abused?

6. Do they really want other people's opinions?

7. When is C++ going to deliver on reuse?

8. When will C++ programs compile on various compilers?

9. When are people going to wake up to what is happening?

10. Will C++ become the PL/I of AT&T and Microsoft?

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
--
Jim Fleming            /|\      Unir Corporation       Unir Technology, Inc.
%Techno Cat I        /  | \     One Naperville Plaza   184 Shuman Blvd. #100
Penn's Landing      /   |  \    Naperville, IL 60563   Naperville, IL 60563
East End, Tortola  |____|___\   1-708-505-5801         1-800-222-UNIR(8647)
British Virgin Islands__|______ 1-708-305-3277 (FAX)   1-708-305-0600
                 \__/-------\__/       e-mail: jim.fleming@bytes.com
Smooth Sailing on Cruising C+@amarans  ftp: 199.3.34.12 <-----stargate----+
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\____to the end of the OuterNet_|