I stopped in on this newsgroup, reading several of the posts, expecting
to find rational discussion of some of the very difficult language
issues associated with changing C++, and was surprised to find an
atmosphere full of animosity and attacks, and references to things
being "American".  (We are talking about computer languages; who CARES
what "nationality" one associates with them?)

Maybe posting things by email itself is the problem, it often happens
that discussions go in completely weird tangents unrelated to the problem
ostensibly under discussion.  I've seen discussion groups on Compuserve
go on strange tangents for weeks at a time in response to someone's joke.

I don't believe in conspiracy theories or notions that small groups are
out to control the shape of C++.  I DO believe that langauge design is
an extraordinarily slippery and difficult art, and languages are always
a compromise between incompatible objectives.

There are plenty of difficult issues here, let's try to discuss them
courteously and objectively.  Languages are difficult enough without the
personality distractions.

I happen to have heard several of Stroustrup's talks in person, and I
have always been impressed with his sense of practical engineering.
Perhaps one can argue with some of his contributions to the language, but
any language feature can be argued with.  I think C++ is meeting its
goals admirably, and we all have a lot to thank Stroustrup for.

In particular, I've seen a little of the new "generic programming" idea,
and consider it a stunningly good idea.  Stroustrup's invention of
templates turns out to have been a very good thing; it made STL possible.

Language design debates are bad enough even in person; see Plauger's
books "Programming on Purpose" about the committee work defining the C
language.

Let's try to discuss the objective issues calmly, and put forward
rational arguments.  "Flaming" has no place here.

Jim Byrd

In <3n99l1$309@punchdown.zocalo.com> Kalyan Kolachala
<kal@chromatic.com> writes:

>I beg to differ. IMHO "ignoring" the flamers is the only
>solution. Because "opposition" is the one thing the flamers
>crave for as that propogates the thread.

I agree with this.  Although I understand Mr. J.F. has been
caught in difficult circumstances as a professional, many of us
have as well.  We move on, do good work, and the difficulties
fade away.  Although he has a good wit (and I don't think there is
anything wrong with humor), he uses "humor" at the expense of
others, and that is wrong.  His analogies are out of order.
If Mr. J.F.  should enter a thread, ignore his input, and
continue on as though he had not entered. Although I will
listen to something of technical merit, whether it be a strength
or weakness, vicious and nasty attacks (draped in humor or not)
have no place here.

>I know it hurts people who have contributed so much to C++ and
> standardization to hear all the drivel but I think it's better
>not to react.
>
Malicious attacks on C++ hurt *all* of us who work hard
in our field, myself included.  Perhaps Mr. J.F.  has the
financial luxury of not keeping up with technology, but most of
us do not.  There are careers at stake, families to support.
I feel it is important to create an environment here where
people are comfortable asking questions and sharing
information so we may all progress more quickly.

Ignore the flamers,
 and be gentle and kind to one another.

--Marian



>
>
>

In article <3ncnb2$589@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>, mcorcora@ix.netcom.com
says...
>
>In <3n99l1$309@punchdown.zocalo.com> Kalyan Kolachala
><kal@chromatic.com> writes:
>
>>I beg to differ. IMHO "ignoring" the flamers is the only
>>solution. Because "opposition" is the one thing the flamers
>>crave for as that propogates the thread.
>
>I agree with this.  Although I understand Mr. J.F. has been
>caught in difficult circumstances as a professional, many of us
>have as well.  We move on, do good work, and the difficulties
>fade away.

Actually, don't you mean you push them under the rug and hope that
they do not ever see the light of day? This works for some things
but in many cases it is better to get everything out in the "open"
and discuss them. This is the essence of the political process in
the U.S. Freedom of speech and freedom of the press. That is what
leads to peace, not hiding out in some ivory tower hoping the
problems will go away.


>Although he has a good wit (and I don't think there is
>anything wrong with humor), he uses "humor" at the expense of
>others, and that is wrong.  His analogies are out of order.

I respect your opinion. Unfortunately, very few people express
their opinion on Usenet unless it is "against" something. That
seems to be the nature of the beast. People send "positive"
support via e-mail. Some claim they are "afraid" to post, thanks
to people like you who are always on the alert to mandate peace
via the head in the sand method.


>If Mr. J.F.  should enter a thread, ignore his input, and
>continue on as though he had not entered.

Interesting, someone that is advocating "peace" instructing others
on how to use the net. Have you ever considered that other people
are adults and are fully capable of making their own decisions?


>Although I will
>listen to something of technical merit, whether it be a strength
>or weakness, vicious and nasty attacks (draped in humor or not)
>have no place here.
>

If one extends your views, you will find that there is no need for
this newsgroup. The various standards committees have their own
private e-mail lists, so they do not need this. The standards groups
clearly do not use this newsgroup to inform the public about the
standards process, they seem to prefer magazines which are 3 to
4 months out of date when they arrive.

I am certain that this newsgroup does not need to exist, just to
inform everyone on what is NOT allowed to be posted here. Maybe
you need to form a newsgroup called....comp.no.posting.allowed...
then when people post, you can jump on them and point out that the
charter of the newsgroup is not to have any postings...I bet that
would help to keep you busy...

>>I know it hurts people who have contributed so much to C++ and
>> standardization to hear all the drivel but I think it's better
>>not to react.
>>

The people that have created C++ have NOT reacted for many years.
They are very dedicated to their agenda, they have a well oiled
machine, postings in this newsgroup are run over by their tanks
and troop carriers like small pebbles on the road to their victory.

You clearly have no idea how the C++ machine operates. If and
when the day comes that it rolls over you, I hope that you consider
the fact that your "head in the sand" approach did not work.  All
it allows you to do is not see the machine when it hits you. The
blow will still be deadly.


>Malicious attacks on C++ hurt *all* of us who work hard
>in our field, myself included.  Perhaps Mr. J.F.  has the
>financial luxury of not keeping up with technology, but most of
>us do not.  There are careers at stake, families to support.
>I feel it is important to create an environment here where
>people are comfortable asking questions and sharing
>information so we may all progress more quickly.
>

Yes you are correct, there are careers at stake and families to
support. I agree with this. I also agree with the fact that
the Internet should provide a forum to allow progress to be
made quickly. I have been advocating this for many years.

Unfortunately, something like C++ was born in the days of the
"good old boys", in the days of inefficient communications, when
a few people could easily control the "spin" on the industry.

The Internet and Usenet are "opening" that process up, it will
be these open interchanges that things start to move more quickly.
By continuing to support the methods used by the C++ machine, you
"slow" progress, not accelerate it. Why don't you advocate that
the C++ machine become more open and use the Internet more? This
will speed the process up and will cause the people running the
machine to gain control in an open forum and not a smoke filled
room.

A good example of this is Linux. Here is a software creation that
was born on the Internet. The speed at which Linux has grown is
a result of the collective work of many people around the world
interacting via the Internet. Linux would not exist, if a bunch
of prima donnas tried to control the outcome and spent years
flying to resort locations, meeting with their cronies to discuss
the issues. That is the path that the C++ standards process has
taken. The result is a very complex and almost unusable language,
a growing standard which has yet to be published, and not clear
metrics to show that reuse or portability has been achieved.


>Ignore the flamers,
> and be gentle and kind to one another.
>
>--Marian
>

...be gentle and kind...
 ...maybe the C++ machine will roll over you gently...
  ...and it will not hurt so much...

--
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