Jim Fleming (jim.fleming@bytes.com) wrote:
: In article <bagpiperD7GEDJ.L1A@netcom.com>, bagpiper@netcom.com says...
: >
: >Jim Fleming (jim.fleming@bytes.com) wrote:
: >
: >[...]
: >
: >: If so, please keep in mind that the ANSI committee has already indicated
: >: that this newsgroup is not theirs [...]
: >
: >So I assume this means you've been in touch with ANSI and all of your
: >questions now have official responses?  If so then can we stop

[...]

: @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

: I am sorry I should have been more clear. I did not mean that ANSI members
: can not post here, or that they do not obtain information here. What I
: meant was that this newsgroup (comp.std.c++) was not set up ONLY for
: ANSI members and in fact is evidently not part of the "official" ANSI
: communication(s).

[...]

No Jim.  What you clearly said was that "the ANSI committe has already
indicated that this newgroup is not theirs".  This directly implies that
you've been in contact with an official agent of "the ANSI committee".
I ask you again to please use that channel of information to get the
questions you have about the logistics of creating/maintaining ANSI
standards answered.

   mph


--
* Michael Hunter bagpiper@netcom.com or QUICS: mphunter

In article <3n41gr$lk@cmcl2.NYU.EDU>, Ed Osinski <osinski@cs.nyu.edu> wrote:
>In article <D79JyE.CtK@ucc.su.OZ.AU>, maxtal@Physics.usyd.edu.au (John Max Skaller) writes:
>|>
>|>  Actually, I'd like to suggest creation of a new _moderated_
>|> newsgroup whose purpose is liason with BOTH the X3J16 committee
>|> and the WG21 committee. (And perhaps the ISO and ANSI C committee
>|> as well)
>
>How much time does the public have to comment?  Two months?  Six months?
>A year?  It would take quite a bit of *time* to setup a non-alt newsgroup.
>It would be faster (and probably easier) to set up a mailing list...

It should also be noted that private mailing lists are... well... private.
It is very easy to refuse subscription requests from (or revoke the sub-
scription of) any individual whose sole aim is (for example) to attempt
to generate pointless controversy in the hopes of selling some competing
product.  (Was it P.T. Barnum who said ``There is no such thing as bad
publicity?'')

(I might also note that it is equally easy to exclude any individual whose
high opinion of himself and his own opinions forces him to drown out all
meaningful discussion via an incessent and overbearing stream of drivel
and ill-founded speculations and opinion.  And no, I am _not_ talking
about Jim Flemming now.  I'm talking about the person who has effectively
reduced all of the official committee mailing lists to useless bit streams,
suitable only for immediate routing to /dev/null.)

If no one else does it first, I will be happy to look into the idea of
creating a private mailing list with my ISP, and see if I can get a
mailing list created here.

P.S.  It's really sad that C++ has so many flaws.  Sader still is the
knowledge that many of these flaws might have been dealt with in an
intelligent fashion if it had not been for the interjections of the
various self-proclaimed prophets and idiot commentators which C++ seems
to draw like flies to shit.
--

-- Ron Guilmette, Sunnyvale, CA ---------- RG Consulting -------------------
---- E-mail: rfg@segfault.us.com ----------- Purveyors of Compiler Test ----
---- finger: rfg@rahul.net ----------------- Suites and Bullet-Proof Shoes -

Jim Fleming (jim.fleming@bytes.com) wrote:

[...]

: If so, please keep in mind that the ANSI committee has already indicated
: that this newsgroup is not theirs [...]

So I assume this means you've been in touch with ANSI and all of your
questions now have official responses?  If so then can we stop
discussing the how, who, why, and what of ANSI & ISO and get back
to discussing the what of the deveoping ANSI & ISO C++ standard?  If not
then can you get back in touch with your ANSI committee contact and
get your questions answered privately.  ONce you have them answered I'm
sure we'd all love to hear the abridge version.  After all part of
what high level languages are all about is to abstract detail.
So shouldn't we (as practicioners of the art) practice the same methods
of abstraction in our work and discussions?

   Michael
--
* Michael Hunter bagpiper@netcom.com or QUICS: mphunter

In article <bagpiperD7GEDJ.L1A@netcom.com>, bagpiper@netcom.com says...
>
>Jim Fleming (jim.fleming@bytes.com) wrote:
>
>[...]
>
>: If so, please keep in mind that the ANSI committee has already indicated
>: that this newsgroup is not theirs [...]
>
>So I assume this means you've been in touch with ANSI and all of your
>questions now have official responses?  If so then can we stop
>discussing the how, who, why, and what of ANSI & ISO and get back
>to discussing the what of the deveoping ANSI & ISO C++ standard?  If not
>then can you get back in touch with your ANSI committee contact and
>get your questions answered privately.  ONce you have them answered I'm
>sure we'd all love to hear the abridge version.  After all part of
>what high level languages are all about is to abstract detail.
>So shouldn't we (as practicioners of the art) practice the same methods
>of abstraction in our work and discussions?
>
>                        Michael
>--
>* Michael Hunter        bagpiper@netcom.com or QUICS: mphunter

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

I am sorry I should have been more clear. I did not mean that ANSI members
can not post here, or that they do not obtain information here. What I
meant was that this newsgroup (comp.std.c++) was not set up ONLY for
ANSI members and in fact is evidently not part of the "official" ANSI
communication(s).

Evidently, the ANSI and ISO committees have their own private mailing
lists and have their own "methods" of discussing their standards work.
What prompted my original posting was that evidently some of the ANSI
members are trying to get the communication on those private mailing
lists under control. That communication is not posted here.

If people on the ANSI committees do not like the way the ANSI committee
is handling public communications, then they have to work that out
"inside" their committees and with their "private" mailing list(s).

This newsgroup should not be faulted for some past or recent changes
in the way that the ANSI committee is handling "official" communication.
This newsgroup has operated as an open forum and continues to operate
as such. Clearly, some posters in this group will not be strong-armed
by the pressures put on them by the ANSI committee members. If the
ANSI committee wants to use those tactics in their "private" operations
then that is the problem of the members. The members of this newsgroup
can clearly have no impact on the methods applied by the ANSI committee
to its own members.

--
Jim Fleming            /|\      Unir Corporation       Unir Technology, Inc.
%Techno Cat I        /  | \     One Naperville Plaza   184 Shuman Blvd. #100
Penn's Landing      /   |  \    Naperville, IL 60563   Naperville, IL 60563
East End, Tortola  |____|___\   1-708-505-5801         1-800-222-UNIR(8647)
British Virgin Islands__|______ 1-708-305-3277 (FAX)   1-708-305-0600
                 \__/-------\__/       e-mail: jim.fleming@bytes.com
Smooth Sailing on Cruising C+@amarans  ftp: 199.3.34.12 <-----stargate----+
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\____to the end of the OuterNet_|

In article <3nbj99$2ps@hustle.rahul.net>, rfg@rahul.net says...
>
>In article <3n41gr$lk@cmcl2.NYU.EDU>, Ed Osinski <osinski@cs.nyu.edu>
wrote:
>>In article <D79JyE.CtK@ucc.su.OZ.AU>, maxtal@Physics.usyd.edu.au (John Max
Skaller) write
>s:
>>|>
>>|>     Actually, I'd like to suggest creation of a new _moderated_
>>|> newsgroup whose purpose is liason with BOTH the X3J16 committee
>>|> and the WG21 committee. (And perhaps the ISO and ANSI C committee
>>|> as well)
>>
>>How much time does the public have to comment?  Two months?  Six months?
>>A year?  It would take quite a bit of *time* to setup a non-alt newsgroup.

>>It would be faster (and probably easier) to set up a mailing list...
>
>It should also be noted that private mailing lists are... well... private.
>It is very easy to refuse subscription requests from (or revoke the sub-
>scription of) any individual whose sole aim is (for example) to attempt
>to generate pointless controversy in the hopes of selling some competing
>product.  (Was it P.T. Barnum who said ``There is no such thing as bad
>publicity?'')
>
>(I might also note that it is equally easy to exclude any individual whose
>high opinion of himself and his own opinions forces him to drown out all
>meaningful discussion via an incessent and overbearing stream of drivel
>and ill-founded speculations and opinion.  And no, I am _not_ talking
>about Jim Flemming now.  I'm talking about the person who has effectively
>reduced all of the official committee mailing lists to useless bit streams,
>suitable only for immediate routing to /dev/null.)
>
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Are you saying that someone (or group) is attempting to reduce all
communication between committee members to a state where no information
is exchanged?

Are you confirming what some of the committee members have been informing
me?

If so, please keep in mind that the ANSI committee has already indicated
that this newsgroup is not theirs, it is for the people trying to figure
out what they are doing. If you are on the committee and you can figure
out what they are doing, you may want to inform the readers of this
newsgroup.

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

>If no one else does it first, I will be happy to look into the idea of
>creating a private mailing list with my ISP, and see if I can get a
>mailing list created here.
>
>P.S.  It's really sad that C++ has so many flaws.  Sader still is the
>knowledge that many of these flaws might have been dealt with in an
>intelligent fashion if it had not been for the interjections of the
>various self-proclaimed prophets and idiot commentators which C++ seems
>to draw like flies to shit.
>--
>
>-- Ron Guilmette, Sunnyvale, CA ---------- RG Consulting
-------------------
>---- E-mail: rfg@segfault.us.com ----------- Purveyors of Compiler Test
----
>---- finger: rfg@rahul.net ----------------- Suites and Bullet-Proof Shoes

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Besides Mr. Guilmette's suggestion regarding a mailing list, I would
offer that the "conference facility" in The MUD Institute (TMI) is also a
viable place to hold discussions. The people in the conference room can
chat with each other and observers can sit in the gallery room with
"read-only" access. The entire conference can be logged. There is a bar
for off-line discussions, private rooms for caususes, plus bulletin
boards for posting notes.

 You can reach The MUD Institute (TMI) via...

  telnet 199.3.34.13 5555


The MUD Institute is sponsored by:
 Books & Bytes, Inc.
 MCSNet
 Unir Corporation
 Unir Technology, Inc.

--
Jim Fleming            /|\      Unir Corporation       Unir Technology, Inc.
%Techno Cat I        /  | \     One Naperville Plaza   184 Shuman Blvd. #100
Penn's Landing      /   |  \    Naperville, IL 60563   Naperville, IL 60563
East End, Tortola  |____|___\   1-708-505-5801         1-800-222-UNIR(8647)
British Virgin Islands__|______ 1-708-305-3277 (FAX)   1-708-305-0600
                 \__/-------\__/       e-mail: jim.fleming@bytes.com
Smooth Sailing on Cruising C+@amarans  ftp: 199.3.34.12 <-----stargate----+
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\____to the end of the OuterNet_|