bs@research.att.com (Bjarne Stroustrup <9758-26353> 0112760)
wrote:
>
>perkinsp@nando.net (Paul A. Perkins) writes
>
> > just skip over those.
>
>This approach suffers from the flaw that someone sufficiently
unrestrained
>would be allowed to take over any thread. This kills sensible
discussion.
>Also, newcomers will start reading a thread at a point where
all sensible
>people have left and be treated to unopposed ravings.
>
>I know it is hard, and often I don't know how, but flamers and
bullies must
>be opposed to maintain a meaningful exchange of information.
Sometimes humor
>helps.

I beg to differ. IMHO "ignoring" the flamers is the only
solution. Because "opposition" is the one thing the flamers
crave for as that propogates the thread.

In fact the C++ newgroups have been fortunate enough to have
been fairly flame-free till sometime back.

As for newcomers, I don't think they are gullible enough to
believe what Fleming and his ilk have to say.

Everybody knows AT&T's contribution to Software in general and
C++ in particular. Not only has C++ originated there but so
have almost all the legends in C++ and  Fleming's utterances
won't change the facts.

I know it hurts people who have contributed so much to C++ and
 standardization to hear all the drivel but I think it's better
not to react.

- Kalyan
> - Bjarne

In article <D78sJ4.8AD@research.att.com> bs@research.att.com (Bjarne
Stroustrup <9758-26353> 0112760) writes:

|> perkinsp@nando.net (Paul A. Perkins) writes

|>  > In article <3mh97m$git@info-server.bbn.com>, Joe Kraska says...
|>  >
|>  > >In rn, we always have 'n' keys and 'K' keys, and hell we can even
|>  > >draft kill files that silence these users for ever.
|>  >
|>  > Alas, the otherwise far nicer newsreader WinVN does not yet have
|>  > this wonderful feature. It does, however, have threads.
|>  > So, if everyone will please refrain from saying anything other than
|>  > "Jim Fleming is a total lunatic" in JF-infected threads, I will
|>  > just skip over those.

|> This approach suffers from the flaw that someone sufficiently unrestrained
|> would be allowed to take over any thread. This kills sensible discussion.
|> Also, newcomers will start reading a thread at a point where all sensible
|> people have left and be treated to unopposed ravings.

I agree with Bjarne here.  What bothers me the most about Flemings
postings is that they keep popping up in threads that were until then
interesting.

|> I know it is hard, and often I don't know how, but flamers and bullies must
|> be opposed to maintain a meaningful exchange of information. Sometimes humor
|> helps.

Again, I agree.  Humor is a good weapon.  Often, just letting them
have their say is the best weapon.  Something about giving a man
enough rope...

But I would also like to be able to follow a technical thread once in
a while without it immediately degrading into idiocy.  Flemings
technique of immediately responding to almost anything has just about
made this impossible.

I suspect that as the net widens, there will be more and more
Flemings.  With the result that all of the groups in which sound
technical discussions are valued will end up moderated.  (I hope I'm
wrong, though.)
--
James Kanze         Tel.: (+33) 88 14 49 00        email: kanze@gabi-soft.fr
GABI Software, Sarl., 8 rue des Francs-Bourgeois, F-67000 Strasbourg, France
Conseils en informatique industrielle --
                              -- Beratung in industrieller Datenverarbeitung

In article <KANZE.95Apr19160837@slsvhdt.us-es.sel.de>, kanze@us-es.sel.de
says...
>
>In article <D78sJ4.8AD@research.att.com> bs@research.att.com (Bjarne
>Stroustrup <9758-26353> 0112760) writes:
>
>|> perkinsp@nando.net (Paul A. Perkins) writes
>
>|>  > In article <3mh97m$git@info-server.bbn.com>, Joe Kraska says...
>|>  >
>|>  > >In rn, we always have 'n' keys and 'K' keys, and hell we can even
>|>  > >draft kill files that silence these users for ever.
>|>  >
>|>  > Alas, the otherwise far nicer newsreader WinVN does not yet have
>|>  > this wonderful feature. It does, however, have threads.
>|>  > So, if everyone will please refrain from saying anything other than
>|>  > "Jim Fleming is a total lunatic" in JF-infected threads, I will
>|>  > just skip over those.
>
>|> This approach suffers from the flaw that someone sufficiently
unrestrained
>|> would be allowed to take over any thread. This kills sensible
discussion.
>|> Also, newcomers will start reading a thread at a point where all
sensible
>|> people have left and be treated to unopposed ravings.
>
>I agree with Bjarne here.  What bothers me the most about Flemings
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>postings is that they keep popping up in threads that were until then
>interesting.
>
>|> I know it is hard, and often I don't know how, but flamers and bullies
must
>|> be opposed to maintain a meaningful exchange of information. Sometimes
humor
>|> helps.
>
>Again, I agree.  Humor is a good weapon.  Often, just letting them
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>have their say is the best weapon.  Something about giving a man
>enough rope...
>
>But I would also like to be able to follow a technical thread once in
>a while without it immediately degrading into idiocy.  Flemings
>technique of immediately responding to almost anything has just about
>made this impossible.
>
>I suspect that as the net widens, there will be more and more
>Flemings.  With the result that all of the groups in which sound
>technical discussions are valued will end up moderated.  (I hope I'm
>wrong, though.)
>--
>James Kanze         Tel.: (+33) 88 14 49 00        email:

I agree with Bjarne and James..... :) (see I can suck up too!)

I agree that as the net widens you will have more and more players.
I do not think the solution or trend will be to moderated groups.
The architecture of Usenet makes that a very large, difficult and
thankless job. Instead, I think that people will move to the OuterNet,
just as they fled the cities for the suburbs.

The OuterNet will consist of a loose coupling of machines (connected
by the Internet) that support various discussion groups and agendas.
In order to participate on the OuterNet, people will have to be part
of the process. This will take work and the human limits of participation
will prevent anyone from being too wide.

Also, people will be required to "pay" to play on the OuterNet. This
will require that people are really serious about their participation.
This same approach is the basis for the ANSI C++ standards activity.
If you (or your company) has the money, you can pay your membership
fee and then join the "jet set" visiting various sites like the
upcoming meeting in Monterey California. Golf is optional, so is an
understanding of the language or OO.

--
Jim Fleming            /|\      Unir Corporation       Unir Technology, Inc.
%Techno Cat I        /  | \     One Naperville Plaza   184 Shuman Blvd. #100
Penn's Landing      /   |  \    Naperville, IL 60563   Naperville, IL 60563
East End, Tortola  |____|___\   1-708-505-5801         1-800-222-UNIR(8647)
British Virgin Islands__|______ 1-708-305-3277 (FAX)   1-708-305-0600
                 \__/-------\__/       e-mail: jim.fleming@bytes.com
Smooth Sailing on Cruising C+@amarans  ftp: 199.3.34.12 <-----stargate----+
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\____to the end of the OuterNet_|

    Mr. Fleming is disappointed with usenet:

     this leaves more time for

     "paying" to engage in "loose coupling" in the

     halcyon vapors of the outer-outer-outernet.

    I think a little "loose-coupling" might do you some good, JF.

    while (paranoid && yammering && megalomaniacal && bored) {
        take_ritalin();          // improve ability to concentrate
        do_loose_coupling(self);
        relight_candles(cult_shrine);
        try_new_mcdonalds_treat(McLithium);
        apply_spf(30,head);   // stop painfull swelling of head
        take_out_the(C+@);
        turn_up_radio();      // must keep 'voices' away
        while(horse == dead) {
            beat();
            if (tired)  break;
        }
        if(get_a_life() == success)  break;
        if(came_up_with_something_really_usefull) {
            self_image++;                 // you win!
            go_to_disney_land();
            hug_analyst();
            break;
        }
        leave_crank_message(fbi,AT+T);
        stick_out_tongue(more_important_people_than_me[]);
    }


-----  -----

In article <JIMK.95Apr19133401@lysander.wx.ll.mit.edu>, jimk@lysander.wx.ll.mit.edu ( James Knowles ) writes:
|>
|>     Mr. Fleming is disappointed with usenet:
|>
|>      this leaves more time for
|>
|>      "paying" to engage in "loose coupling" in the
|>
|>      halcyon vapors of the outer-outer-outernet.
|>
|>     I think a little "loose-coupling" might do you some good, JF.
|>
|>     while (paranoid && yammering && megalomaniacal && bored) {
|>         take_ritalin();          // improve ability to concentrate
|>         do_loose_coupling(self);
|>         relight_candles(cult_shrine);
|>         try_new_mcdonalds_treat(McLithium);
|>         apply_spf(30,head);   // stop painfull swelling of head
|>         take_out_the(C+@);
                          ^
Ironically, the code seems syntactically correct with the exception of the
@ above. :-)

|>         turn_up_radio();      // must keep 'voices' away
|>         while(horse == dead) {
|>             beat();
|>             if (tired)  break;
|>         }
|>         if(get_a_life() == success)  break;
|>         if(came_up_with_something_really_usefull) {
|>             self_image++;                 // you win!
|>             go_to_disney_land();
|>             hug_analyst();
|>             break;
|>         }
|>         leave_crank_message(fbi,AT+T);
|>         stick_out_tongue(more_important_people_than_me[]);
|>     }

--
---------------------------------------------------------------------
 Ed Osinski
 Computer Science Department, New York University
 E-mail:  osinski@cs.nyu.edu
---------------------------------------------------------------------
In the early years of the 16th century, to combat the rising tide of
religious unorthodoxy, the Pope gave Cardinal Ximinez of Spain leave
to move without let or hindrance throughout the land, in a reign of
violence, terror and torture that makes a smashing film.  This was
the Spanish Inquisition...
    -- Monty Python's Flying Circus

In article <3mh97m$git@info-server.bbn.com>, Joe Kraska says...

>In rn, we always have 'n' keys and 'K' keys, and hell we can even
>draft kill files that silence these users for ever.

Alas, the otherwise far nicer newsreader WinVN does not yet have
this wonderful feature. It does, however, have threads.
So, if everyone will please refrain from saying anything other than
"Jim Fleming is a total lunatic" in JF-infected threads, I will
just skip over those.

--
Paul A. Perkins
perkinsp@nando.net
(All things are Fire)

perkinsp@nando.net (Paul A. Perkins) writes

 > In article <3mh97m$git@info-server.bbn.com>, Joe Kraska says...
 >
 > >In rn, we always have 'n' keys and 'K' keys, and hell we can even
 > >draft kill files that silence these users for ever.
 >
 > Alas, the otherwise far nicer newsreader WinVN does not yet have
 > this wonderful feature. It does, however, have threads.
 > So, if everyone will please refrain from saying anything other than
 > "Jim Fleming is a total lunatic" in JF-infected threads, I will
 > just skip over those.

This approach suffers from the flaw that someone sufficiently unrestrained
would be allowed to take over any thread. This kills sensible discussion.
Also, newcomers will start reading a thread at a point where all sensible
people have left and be treated to unopposed ravings.

I know it is hard, and often I don't know how, but flamers and bullies must
be opposed to maintain a meaningful exchange of information. Sometimes humor
helps.

 - Bjarne

   excellent rejoinder, Mr. Fleming!
   My auditorium model does seem a bit flawed
   ....it's really more like a wide-open park,
   where people place their soap-box.  It's just
   that I seek some illumination at these groups.
   I agree with browncs, though:  this is a clear
   demonstration of the higher plane of thinking
   you are capable of.  I would be less annoyed
   if your C+@ calling had more meat to it.
   That's the jist of what many have been saying
   so far.  You don't have to, but could you
   give us something reasoned once in a while?
   Even the 1-minute tour de force was a little
   garbled.  You would have more listeners if
   you didn't waste most of your time trading
   pot-shots.  If that's what you want to do,
   I won't try to stop it, but some of us see
   flahes of true light once in a while, and we
   would like to see more.

      peace --
----------------------

In article <JIMK.95Apr14084413@lysander.wx.ll.mit.edu>,
jimk@lysander.wx.ll.mit.edu says...
>
>
>   excellent rejoinder, Mr. Fleming!
>   My auditorium model does seem a bit flawed
>   ....it's really more like a wide-open park,
>   where people place their soap-box.  It's just
>   that I seek some illumination at these groups.
>   I agree with browncs, though:  this is a clear
>   demonstration of the higher plane of thinking
>   you are capable of.  I would be less annoyed
>   if your C+@ calling had more meat to it.
>   That's the jist of what many have been saying
>   so far.  You don't have to, but could you
>   give us something reasoned once in a while?
>   Even the 1-minute tour de force was a little
>   garbled.  You would have more listeners if
>   you didn't waste most of your time trading
>   pot-shots.  If that's what you want to do,
>   I won't try to stop it, but some of us see
>   flahes of true light once in a while, and we
>   would like to see more.
>
>      peace --
>----------------------
>

I would like to give you more...I would like to give you everything...

At the moment I can only give you pointers...
 ...like read the April issue of Upside from cover to cover...

I can tell you that C++ is not the main event....
 ...it is a side show...and is diverting the attention of many

Look at the players lining up in the arena...for August...

Figure out who is going to try to control the information flow...
 ...of the planet...

Ask yourself...as part of the C++ standards efforts...whether *any*
 information flow has been controlled...
  ...if yes...ask why? who benfits?

As time goes on...I will give you more...
 ...unfortunately most of you seem pretty satisfied *not* knowing
  ...what has been going on...and what is going to happen...
   ...stay tuned, maybe August will wake you up...


--
Jim Fleming            /|\      Unir Corporation       Unir Technology, Inc.
%Techno Cat I        /  | \     One Naperville Plaza   184 Shuman Blvd. #100
Penn's Landing      /   |  \    Naperville, IL 60563   Naperville, IL 60563
East End, Tortola  |____|___\   1-708-505-5801         1-800-222-UNIR(8647)
British Virgin Islands__|______ 1-708-305-3277 (FAX)   1-708-305-0600
                 \__/-------\__/       e-mail: jim.fleming@bytes.com
Smooth Sailing on Cruising C+@amarans  ftp: 199.3.34.12 <-----stargate----+
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\____to the end of the OuterNet_|

Joe Kraska (jkraska@bbn.com) wrote:

: From what I see from the responses on this, the major objection to
: comp.std.c++ is a particular person

Simple. We'll have THREE C++ news groups.

1. comp.lang.c++
2. comp.std.c++ (moderated)
3. alt.fleming.c++ (completely uncensored, C@+ postings encouraged)

That ought to keep Jim and Marian happy.

Cay

   oh,no ... more riddles ...
   ah.well .. back to work ..
---------------------

In article <3mm9et$b67@News1.mcs.com>,
Jim Fleming <jim.fleming@bytes.com> wrote:
:In article <JIMK.95Apr14084413@lysander.wx.ll.mit.edu>,
:jimk@lysander.wx.ll.mit.edu says...
:>
:>
:>   excellent rejoinder, Mr. Fleming!
:>   My auditorium model does seem a bit flawed
:>   ....it's really more like a wide-open park,
:>   where people place their soap-box.  It's just
:>   that I seek some illumination at these groups.
:>   I agree with browncs, though:  this is a clear
:>   demonstration of the higher plane of thinking
:>   you are capable of.  I would be less annoyed
:>   if your C+@ calling had more meat to it.
:>   That's the jist of what many have been saying
:>   so far.  You don't have to, but could you
:>   give us something reasoned once in a while?
:>   Even the 1-minute tour de force was a little
:>   garbled.  You would have more listeners if
:>   you didn't waste most of your time trading
:>   pot-shots.  If that's what you want to do,
:>   I won't try to stop it, but some of us see
:>   flahes of true light once in a while, and we
:>   would like to see more.
:>
:>      peace --
:>----------------------
:>
:
:I would like to give you more...I would like to give you everything...
:
:At the moment I can only give you pointers...
: ...like read the April issue of Upside from cover to cover...
:
:I can tell you that C++ is not the main event....
: ...it is a side show...and is diverting the attention of many
:
:Look at the players lining up in the arena...for August...
:
:Figure out who is going to try to control the information flow...
: ...of the planet...
:
:Ask yourself...as part of the C++ standards efforts...whether *any*
: information flow has been controlled...
:  ...if yes...ask why? who benfits?
:
:As time goes on...I will give you more...
: ...unfortunately most of you seem pretty satisfied *not* knowing
:  ...what has been going on...and what is going to happen...
:   ...stay tuned, maybe August will wake you up...
                           ---
                          /   \
                         ( o o )  +---------+
                          \ - /   | THE END |
                           ---    | IS NEAR |
                          _| |_   +---+-+---+
                         /     \      | |
                        / |   | \     | |
                       / /|   |\ \    | |
                      | | |   | \ \___| |
                      | | |   |  \      /
                      | | |   |   ------

Okay...so I can't draw in ASCII...I can't draw much better in pencil ;-)

--
Stephen Gevers
sg3235@shelob.sbc.com

In <3mm8a7$k79@jupiter.SJSU.EDU> horstman@sjsumcs.sjsu.edu (Cay
Horstmann) writes:

>
>Joe Kraska (jkraska@bbn.com) wrote:
>
>: From what I see from the responses on this, the major objection to
>: comp.std.c++ is a particular person
>
>Simple. We'll have THREE C++ news groups.
>
>1. comp.lang.c++
>2. comp.std.c++ (moderated)
>3. alt.fleming.c++ (completely uncensored, C@+ postings encouraged)
>
>That ought to keep Jim and Marian happy.
>
>Cay
>

With all due respect to Cay's intentions, and knowing he has the best
interests of C++ at heart, I think the problem here goes a little deeper
than that.

--Marian

    actually, I added this group hoping to
    escape the phleming in c.l.c++, hoping
    to see discussions on a higher level.

    Now I see j.f.  agressively baiting
    Clamage  and cat-calling at Bjarne.

    There ARE two C++ groups.

    Here's a thought:  if this were a public
    forum, held in an auditorium, the heckler
    would be shouted down by the crowd.
    If there were a vote on this particular
    case, some democracy could be maintained,
    in the manner of a town meeting (well, maybe
    not THAT loud and raucous)

    ---just some comments---

-----------------

In article <JIMK.95Apr13093032@lysander.wx.ll.mit.edu>,
jimk@lysander.wx.ll.mit.edu says...
>
>    actually, I added this group hoping to
>    escape the phleming in c.l.c++, hoping
>    to see discussions on a higher level.
>
>    Now I see j.f.  agressively baiting
>    Clamage  and cat-calling at Bjarne.
>
>    There ARE two C++ groups.
>
>    Here's a thought:  if this were a public
>    forum, held in an auditorium, the heckler
>    would be shouted down by the crowd.
>    If there were a vote on this particular
>    case, some democracy could be maintained,
>    in the manner of a town meeting (well, maybe
>    not THAT loud and raucous)
>
>    ---just some comments---
>
>-----------------
>

This is NOT an auditorium...they are becoming obsolete...

By suggesting that this is like an auditorium, you are implying that
the people who are posting here are "sitting" in the auditorium and
that *only* the people that are posting are "in" the auditorium...
this is just not the case...

Firstly, the ratio of posters to readers has to be a very small
number...probably less than 1/100...

Secondly, you have no idea what the other 99 think because they *never*
post, they just "lurk"....

Thirdly, one way to get some idea of what a *few* of the other 99
think is to read e-mails...Yes, some people send private e-mails
rather than posting their views...that is their choice, but keep
in mind that *all* of the other 99 do not take the time to do that...

a better metaphor is to consider ALL people that "post" to be actors
on a stage...the readers are in the audience...When you go to the
theater (assuming that you do), do you demand that the actors play
their roles one by one? No they operate in parallel...as a member
of the audience, you are required to follow all of the action in
parallel....only judge Ito makes everyone go "one at a time"...

--
Jim Fleming            /|\      Unir Corporation       Unir Technology, Inc.
%Techno Cat I        /  | \     One Naperville Plaza   184 Shuman Blvd. #100
Penn's Landing      /   |  \    Naperville, IL 60563   Naperville, IL 60563
East End, Tortola  |____|___\   1-708-505-5801         1-800-222-UNIR(8647)
British Virgin Islands__|______ 1-708-305-3277 (FAX)   1-708-305-0600
                 \__/-------\__/       e-mail: jim.fleming@bytes.com
Smooth Sailing on Cruising C+@amarans  ftp: 199.3.34.12 <-----stargate----+
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\____to the end of the OuterNet_|

In <3mjfin$e6g@News1.mcs.com>, jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim Fleming) writes:
>
>This is NOT an auditorium...they are becoming obsolete...
>(... rest deleted)

Astoundingly, an excellent and thoughtful post.  Ironically, I had just
decided to put Jim in my killfile... guess I won't do that now.  Jim,
try to make the rest of your posts at this level!

Charlie Brown - LAN Server Development - browncs@austin.ibm.com

In article <D6zLtG.1z35@austin.ibm.com>, browncs@austin.ibm.com says...
>
>In <3mjfin$e6g@News1.mcs.com>, jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim Fleming) writes:
>>
>>This is NOT an auditorium...they are becoming obsolete...
>>(... rest deleted)
>
>Astoundingly, an excellent and thoughtful post.  Ironically, I had just
>decided to put Jim in my killfile... guess I won't do that now.  Jim,
>try to make the rest of your posts at this level!
>
>Charlie Brown - LAN Server Development - browncs@austin.ibm.com
>

I think that comp.std.c++ should get back on the topic of the American
National Standards Institute (ANSI) and ISO activities as related to
the standardization of the C++ Programming Language and associatted
class libraries.

I believe that this newsgroup should support *all* topics related to
this activity including the operational, political, economic, and
technical issues related to this "standards" work. I believe that both
sides of these issues should be heard, not just the "forthcoming
standard" side. I also believe that this newsgroup should discuss how
this standard fits into the world order and this should be a forum
for discussing how society will benefit as a result of the standard.

P.S. I don't suppose that you are related to the Charlie Brown that
headed AT&T prior to Divestiture?

--
Jim Fleming            /|\      Unir Corporation       Unir Technology, Inc.
%Techno Cat I        /  | \     One Naperville Plaza   184 Shuman Blvd. #100
Penn's Landing      /   |  \    Naperville, IL 60563   Naperville, IL 60563
East End, Tortola  |____|___\   1-708-505-5801         1-800-222-UNIR(8647)
British Virgin Islands__|______ 1-708-305-3277 (FAX)   1-708-305-0600
                 \__/-------\__/       e-mail: jim.fleming@bytes.com
Smooth Sailing on Cruising C+@amarans  ftp: 199.3.34.12 <-----stargate----+
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\____to the end of the OuterNet_|

** From what I see from the responses on this, the major objection to
** comp.std.c++ is a particular person

We may from time to time find the opinions of others objectionable.
Silencing those others with bullying tactics, is however, even more
objectionable, because it proves quite clearly that are position is
inherently weak.

This newsgroup is for the discussion of the c++ standard, and criticism,
no matter how biting, is surely allowed. Opinions regarding the standard,
no matter how outrageous, are surely permitted.

In rn, we always have 'n' keys and 'K' keys, and hell we can even
draft kill files that silence these users for ever. Thus, this desire
to moderate out a particular individual is demonstratably not the
desire to simply not hear what this individual has to say. It is the
desire to make ** no one else ** hear what this individual has to say.

How childish!

Joe Kraska.