Topic: RFD: "Evolutionary" Charter (informal) for comp.std.c++
Author: coxm@software.mitel.com (Micheal Cox)
Date: 1995/04/12 Raw View
Jim Fleming (jim.fleming@bytes.com) wrote:
: In article <3m7c1h$5os@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, mcorcora@ix.netcom.com
: says...
[stuff deleted]
: > From what I see from the responses on this, the major objection to
: >comp.std.c++ is a particular person, whom I shall not name here. With
: >that exception, comp.std.c++ is basically a *good* group. What is the
: >saying, "Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater."
: >
: @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
: Yes, Bjarne has dominated C++ for many years. Except for him, most
: people take a more moderate and reasonable (*good*) approach to the
: issues.
: @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Gee Jim I think he's really talking about you here. I think Bjarne
(while dominating C++ a bit) has been more than reasonable. That's why
I really think it is you who this person is referring to.
--
Michael Cox | Remember: Object Oriented Technology -- OOT
Mitel Corp. | Hyper-Object Oriented Technology -- HOOT!
In sunny | Create Hyper-Object Groups -- HOGs!
Kanata! | Mitel has nothing to do with my opinions. They're all mine!
Author: jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim Fleming)
Date: 1995/04/12 Raw View
In article <3mgqtf$mcq@coxm.mitel.com>, coxm@software.mitel.com says...
>
>Jim Fleming (jim.fleming@bytes.com) wrote:
>: In article <3m7c1h$5os@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, mcorcora@ix.netcom.com
>: says...
>[stuff deleted]
>: > From what I see from the responses on this, the major objection to
>: >comp.std.c++ is a particular person, whom I shall not name here. With
>: >that exception, comp.std.c++ is basically a *good* group. What is the
>: >saying, "Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater."
>: >
>: @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
>: Yes, Bjarne has dominated C++ for many years. Except for him, most
>: people take a more moderate and reasonable (*good*) approach to the
>: issues.
>: @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
>Gee Jim I think he's really talking about you here. I think Bjarne
>(while dominating C++ a bit) has been more than reasonable. That's why
>I really think it is you who this person is referring to.
>
>
>--
>Michael Cox | Remember: Object Oriented Technology -- OOT
>Mitel Corp. | Hyper-Object Oriented Technology -- HOOT!
> In sunny | Create Hyper-Object Groups -- HOGs!
> Kanata! | Mitel has nothing to do with my opinions. They're all mine!
How can that be...I have had very little to do with C++...just check
the definitive reference..."The Design and Evolution of C++"..by BS
If indictments are handed down on this mess, I would hope that people
do not associate me with C++...
Some of the people associatted with this fiasco have either been "phased
out" of Bell Labs, have left, or have left the U.S....
When the UNIX wars got hot...AT&T created UNIX Systems Labs (USL) and
then sold the hot potatoe to Novell...and laughed all of the way to
the bank...during the BSD lawsuit, AT&T officials constantly told me
that *they* had nothing to do with that affair...what a joke...
The current rumor is that AT&T is trying to pawn C++ off on HP via the
"pumping" up of STL...Sun evidently is falling for the bait also...in
six months, we will probably see AT&T claiming that they never had
anything to do with C++...
Folks, wake up...most AT&T employees are just trying to hold on to the
day when they can retire and collect their pensions....and they hope
that this is before the Internet and Long Distance Services markets
merge and the seven RBOCs eat their lunch...
...If you have been too busy proof reading the C++ standards document
you may not have noticed that the Justice Department of the United States
of American has given Ameritech the go ahead to start testing their
long distance service offerings...
The projected date for the phase out of AT&T is still 1/1/98....
--
Jim Fleming /|\ Unir Corporation Unir Technology, Inc.
%Techno Cat I / | \ One Naperville Plaza 184 Shuman Blvd. #100
Penn's Landing / | \ Naperville, IL 60563 Naperville, IL 60563
East End, Tortola |____|___\ 1-708-505-5801 1-800-222-UNIR(8647)
British Virgin Islands__|______ 1-708-305-3277 (FAX) 1-708-305-0600
\__/-------\__/ e-mail: jim.fleming@bytes.com
Smooth Sailing on Cruising C+@amarans ftp: 199.3.34.12 <-----stargate----+
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Author: jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim Fleming)
Date: 1995/04/09 Raw View
In article <3m7c1h$5os@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, mcorcora@ix.netcom.com
says...
>
>I have worked through the following in an attempt to do what is best for
>the growth of C++ with the USENET groups as a medium. I would value any
>suggestions you might have.
>
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C++ seems to atribute anything that grows with it's name attached
as some sign of success. The growing controversy in comp.lang.c++ as
well as comp.std.c++, should not be applauded and awarded.
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>Motivation for this exploration
> When I see a group and it seems too many people are going in one
>direction, I think it is a good idea to examine the other side.
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This is a noble attitude, unfortunately, it seems to imply that you
never really have your *own* ideas or opinions, just the opposite of
the majority. While that can provide you unlimited opportunities to
express the other side of other people's opinions, it does not allow
us (readers) to find out if you have any original opinions.
Many so-called contributors to Usenet, never contribute anything
original. Even though they see to think they are the "back-bones"
of the newsgroups, they provide no *added* value when the transcripts
are read. You may want to be careful not to fall into that trap.
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>If
>everyone were against moderation, I would probably be advocating looking
>at moderation, simply to try to balance things out. Matt Austen
>(matt@...) has asked me to come up with a charter for comp.std.c++ which
>might be more what I was considering (He invited everyone to do this).
>Some one else thinks things could be a little more flexible.
>
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I assume that you could mean me, I would like to see thigs fexible. As
soon as you start imposing rigid rules, you are on the DoorStep of
disaster. The OuterNet operates fine without rigid rules, but does
provide people with a more civiliazed world than Usenet.
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>"Evolutionary" Charter(Informal) for comp.std.c++
>What I was thinking of, informally, was something that comp.std.c++
>would be that the main emphasis would be standards stuff, but other
>things would be okay, as long as discussed in an appropriate manner.
>(no bashing, no flaming). Comp.std.c++ has sort of evolved according to
>the needs of the group. It's healthy for organizations and groups to be
>able to evolve. (C++ has succeeded precisely because it has been able
>to evolve and integrate new technologies--the latest is STL)
> If you look at comp.std.c++ now it is mostly standards with
>language issues that are generally with a slightly different tone than
>the overburdened comp.lang.c++. (Some people don't have time to read
>comp.lang.c++).
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At this stage of the game, very few people should have any time to read
any Usenet group. There "infobots" should be doing the reading and in
some case the responding.
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> From what I see from the responses on this, the major objection to
>comp.std.c++ is a particular person, whom I shall not name here. With
>that exception, comp.std.c++ is basically a *good* group. What is the
>saying, "Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater."
>
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Yes, Bjarne has dominated C++ for many years. Except for him, most
people take a more moderate and reasonable (*good*) approach to the
issues.
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
>
>On the Moderator (if moderation is decided upon.)
>The moderator shouldn't be a member of the ANSI C++ Committee. Although
>very sincere in their efforts to do the best thing, I think there might
>be a conflict of interests. Someone more impartial would be better.
>
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I have volunteered to help moderate, I am not *yet* on the ANSI committee.
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>
>On Moderation
> The one thing I have in favor of moderation is that I know some people,
>very good, talented people who would certainly make a contribution to
>C++ here who will not participate in these groups because of the
>flaming. However, there is no protection from articles being
>dragged from the one group (comp.std.c++) and being "abused" in the
>other.
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MANY people do not participate in any aspect of Usenet. They have moved
to the OuterNet for a more civilized place to participate. I suspect much
of this will become a moot point in lat 1995 when Microsoft reinvents the
Internet for the world. Usenet will probably become a "red light district"
for Internet users...comp.lang.c++ will thrive in that "light"...
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>If they do decide to moderate comp.std.c++, they should have an
>unmoderated version as well. A tight lid is not a good idea
>(unmoderated acts as safety valve.) Someone suggested comp.lang.c++ as
>a place where stuff could spill over. That group is already, as I said
>above, overburdened, and one actually gets more visibility there.
>
>I am not saying the ideas above are all *exactly* right, but I do think
>they should be considered.
>
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It is interesting that you are discussing the moderation of comp.std.c++
and did not even post your discussion there...
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--
Jim Fleming /|\ Unir Corporation Unir Technology, Inc.
%Techno Cat I / | \ One Naperville Plaza 184 Shuman Blvd. #100
Penn's Landing / | \ Naperville, IL 60563 Naperville, IL 60563
East End, Tortola |____|___\ 1-708-505-5801 1-800-222-UNIR(8647)
British Virgin Islands__|______ 1-708-305-3277 (FAX) 1-708-305-0600
\__/-------\__/ e-mail: jim.fleming@bytes.com
Smooth Sailing on Cruising C+@amarans ftp: 199.3.34.12 <-----stargate----+
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