In article <3m3mc8$9iv@News1.mcs.com>, jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim Fleming) says:
>
>In article <9509718.6578@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU>, fjh@munta.cs.mu.OZ.AU says...
>>
>>jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim Fleming) writes:
>>
>>>Does this mean that the C++ Standard will replace the ANSI/ISO C standard
>>>since as you point out the C standard _was_ one of the base documents?
>>
>>No.  The C++ standard will be based in part on the C standard, but the
>>two standards will co-exist and the C standard will continue to evolve
>>somewhat independently.
>>
>>--
>>Fergus Henderson - fjh@munta.cs.mu.oz.au
>
>
>Please save this...in about 1 year...you may want to revisit this posting.
>You may also want to talk to the people who are planning on merging these
>two standards.
>

Would you be so kind as to give us the names of these people?

In article <3let28$10n@News1.mcs.com>, jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim Fleming) writes:
[..]
|> I suggest that you look a little deeper and look at who is in charge
|> of the ANSI C movement and who is in charge of the C++ movement. Also,
|> I suggest that you look at who stands to gain financially if the languages
|> evolve to be one...look at the "positioning" that has gone on for the
|> last few years...the picture is very clear...just look at it...

As it seems you, Jim Fleming, know more about C+@ then we, the other
users of this newsgroup, could you please reveal:

- who is "in charge" of the C+@ "movement"?
- who would gain financially if C+@ had more success than now?
- who is the owner of C+@?


To make it very simple here is a list, just put a checkmark and send it back:

( ) Jim Fleming
( ) Unir
( ) any other single person
( ) any other commercial enterprise
( ) the US governement
( ) an international committee
( ) an informal group of individual freaks, enjoying their private hobby
    (i.e. it's not their job)
( ) neither of these


Ulf Schuenemann

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Ulf Sch   nemann
Fakult   t f   r Informatik, Technische Universit   t M   nchen, Germany.
email: schuenem@informatik.tu-muenchen.de

jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim Fleming) writes:

>Does this mean that the C++ Standard will replace the ANSI/ISO C standard
>since as you point out the C standard _was_ one of the base documents?

No.  The C++ standard will be based in part on the C standard, but the
two standards will co-exist and the C standard will continue to evolve
somewhat independently.

--
Fergus Henderson - fjh@munta.cs.mu.oz.au

In article <9509718.6578@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU>, fjh@munta.cs.mu.OZ.AU says...
>
>jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim Fleming) writes:
>
>>Does this mean that the C++ Standard will replace the ANSI/ISO C standard
>>since as you point out the C standard _was_ one of the base documents?
>
>No.  The C++ standard will be based in part on the C standard, but the
>two standards will co-exist and the C standard will continue to evolve
>somewhat independently.
>
>--
>Fergus Henderson - fjh@munta.cs.mu.oz.au


Please save this...in about 1 year...you may want to revisit this posting.
You may also want to talk to the people who are planning on merging these
two standards.

The C++ Standard is going to need all of the help it can get. It has the
coat-tails (not C+@ tails) of C to ride on...Just wait and see how quickly
C++ moves on C, once the C++ standard is "finished"...

--
Jim Fleming            /|\      Unir Corporation       Unir Technology, Inc.
%Techno Cat I        /  | \     One Naperville Plaza   184 Shuman Blvd. #100
Penn's Landing      /   |  \    Naperville, IL 60563   Naperville, IL 60563
East End, Tortola  |____|___\   1-708-505-5801         1-800-222-UNIR(8647)
British Virgin Islands__|______ 1-708-305-3277 (FAX)   1-708-305-0600
                 \__/-------\__/       e-mail: jim.fleming@bytes.com
Smooth Sailing on Cruising C+@amarans  ftp: 199.3.34.12 <-----stargate----+
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\____to the end of the OuterNet_|

In article <3lckj6$ldc@offas_dike.sbil.co.uk>, shepherd@debussy.sbi.com
says...
>
>Jim Fleming (jim.fleming@bytes.com) wrote:
>>       Since there is an ANSI standard for C, and since C++ is
>>       an incremental enhancement to C, why not just extend, amend,
>>       revise, etc. the ANSI C standard to reflect the incremental
>>       additions?
>>
>
>Well, C is still a very viable language, and tens of thousands of
>programmers are still using it.  C++ is a new language; it happens
>to be a descendant of C, and it retains compatibility in many important
>ways, but it is a new language nonetheless.
>
>Incidentally, the C standard is very much alive, and a separate committee
>is considering revisions to the existing standard--not to make it more
>like C++, but to make extensions *in the spirit of the original language*.
>
>I use both languages (although C++ more often), and it's important to me
>to have a good standard for each.
>
>---
>Marc Shepherd
>Salomon Brothers Inc
>mshepherd@mhfl.sbi.com          The opinions I express are no one's but
mine!
>

Yes you are correct. It will be interesting to see how long the two
standards are allowed to exist.

I suggest that you look a little deeper and look at who is in charge
of the ANSI C movement and who is in charge of the C++ movement. Also,
I suggest that you look at who stands to gain financially if the languages
evolve to be one...look at the "positioning" that has gone on for the
last few years...the picture is very clear...just look at it...


--
Jim Fleming            /|\      Unir Corporation       Unir Technology, Inc.
%Techno Cat I        /  | \     One Naperville Plaza   184 Shuman Blvd. #100
Penn's Landing      /   |  \    Naperville, IL 60563   Naperville, IL 60563
East End, Tortola  |____|___\   1-708-505-5801         1-800-222-UNIR(8647)
British Virgin Islands__|______ 1-708-305-3277 (FAX)   1-708-305-0600
                 \__/-------\__/       e-mail: jim.fleming@bytes.com
Smooth Sailing on Cruising C+@amarans  ftp: 199.3.34.12 <-----stargate----+
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\____to the end of the OuterNet_|

Jim Fleming (jim.fleming@bytes.com) wrote:
>  Since there is an ANSI standard for C, and since C++ is
>  an incremental enhancement to C, why not just extend, amend,
>  revise, etc. the ANSI C standard to reflect the incremental
>  additions?
>

Well, C is still a very viable language, and tens of thousands of
programmers are still using it.  C++ is a new language; it happens
to be a descendant of C, and it retains compatibility in many important
ways, but it is a new language nonetheless.

Incidentally, the C standard is very much alive, and a separate committee
is considering revisions to the existing standard--not to make it more
like C++, but to make extensions *in the spirit of the original language*.

I use both languages (although C++ more often), and it's important to me
to have a good standard for each.

---
Marc Shepherd
Salomon Brothers Inc
mshepherd@mhfl.sbi.com  The opinions I express are no one's but mine!

In article <9508701.6649@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU>, fjh@munta.cs.mu.OZ.AU says...
>
>jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim Fleming) writes:
>
>>This is a dumb question. I am sure it has been asked before.
>>Please pardon my late arrival in this process.
>>
>>Question:
>>       Since there is an ANSI standard for C, and since C++ is
>>       an incremental enhancement to C, why not just extend, ammend,
>>       revise, etc. the ANSI C standard to reflect the incremental
>>       additions?
>
>The ANSI/ISO C standard _was_ one of the two base documents for
>the current C++ standardization process.  (The other one was the ARM.)
>
>--
>Fergus Henderson - fjh@munta.cs.mu.oz.au

Does this mean that the C++ Standard will replace the ANSI/ISO C standard
since as you point out the C standard _was_ one of the base documents?


--
Jim Fleming            /|\      Unir Corporation       Unir Technology, Inc.
%Techno Cat I        /  | \     One Naperville Plaza   184 Shuman Blvd. #100
Penn's Landing      /   |  \    Naperville, IL 60563   Naperville, IL 60563
East End, Tortola  |____|___\   1-708-505-5801         1-800-222-UNIR(8647)
British Virgin Islands__|______ 1-708-305-3277 (FAX)   1-708-305-0600
                 \__/-------\__/       e-mail: jim.fleming@bytes.com
Smooth Sailing on Cruising C+@amarans  ftp: 199.3.34.12 <-----stargate----+
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\____to the end of the OuterNet_|

Jim Fleming (jim.fleming@bytes.com) wrote:

>  Since there is an ANSI standard for C, and since C++ is
>  an incremental enhancement to C, why not just extend, amend,
>  revise, etc. the ANSI C standard to reflect the incremental
>  additions?

I wonder what is the relationship between Unir and AT&T labs.
Supposedly that both Calico, and C++ originally came out of the Bell labs.

Personally, I find the messages coming out of Unir Technology through
Mr. Fleming to be fairly bizarre.  I hope there will not be some big public
relation blunders.  It is hard to see whether the thing Mr. Fleming say
represents Unir's position, or it's just his own opinion.

> Jim Fleming            /|\      Unir Corporation       Unir Technology,

  -Thomas Wang              (Computing work increases system entropy.)
   wang@cup.hp.com          http://hpodb03.cup.hp.com/~wang/wang.html

wang@cup.hp.com (Thomas Wang) writes:

>Jim Fleming (jim.fleming@bytes.com) wrote:

>>  Since there is an ANSI standard for C, and since C++ is
>>  an incremental enhancement to C, why not just extend, amend,
>>  revise, etc. the ANSI C standard to reflect the incremental
>>  additions?

...

>Personally, I find the messages coming out of Unir Technology through
>Mr. Fleming to be fairly bizarre.  I hope there will not be some big public
>relation blunders.  It is hard to see whether the thing Mr. Fleming say
>represents Unir's position, or it's just his own opinion.

    It is quite clear from this, and other postings, that Jim
    Fleming has at best a superficial knowledge of C++; anyone
    who is actually familiar with C++ quickly realizes that the
    differences between C and C++ are quite substantial.

    In any event, maybe it's time to talk about the developing
    standard again?

    As for Mr. Fleming, he might wish to take a look at a text on
    the C++ langugage.  I found Stroustrup's "The C++ Programming
    Language, 2nd ed." to be quite useful.

--xmsb
xmsb@borland.com
xmsb@slaughter.com

jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim Fleming) writes:


>Isn't true that most of the "focused" and "serious" work occurs
>before the meeting and the meetings are used to "socialize" the
>results.

No, that isn't true. Technical discussions via email are valuable,
but details are hammered out in groups at the physical meetings.
The synergy obtained by meeting together for a few days is far
more valuable than many months of email exchanges. Many problems
and solutions discovered would doubtless never have been found if
it were not for the meetings themselves.

--
Steve Clamage, stephen.clamage@eng.sun.com

In article <D5y97z.5M6@research.att.com>, ark@research.att.com says...
>
>In article <3ktdag$he2@panix.com> hymie@panix.com (Hyman Rosen) writes:
>
>> The reason the committee works in private
>> is because design by mob is a poor idea, and the signal-to-noise ratio on
>> the internet is woefully low.
>

The Internet is not just Usenet...the MUDs and MOOs are part of it...
 Have you considered using the Diversity University MOO?


>The committee meetings are not private, but neither are they public.
>The two barriers to entry: one must pay to join, and one must
>travel to the meetings.
>
Summary:
 Bariers to entry:
  1. Pay to join ~ $600
  2. Travel to meetings (Annual budget $20,000)

 What about handicapped access?
  AT&T claims to be a leader in
   Equal Opportunity
   Equal Access
   Equal Rights
  What leadership has AT&T shown in these areas with
   respect to the ANSI committee?

 What about political access?
  Can someone host a meeting in Bosnia?
  What if a meeting was held in South Africa 10 years ago?
   Would people be *required* to attend to vote?

>> Meetings are held in
>> geographicly diverse regions because committee members come from diverse
>> regions.
>

Diversity....a great thing...can you give us statistics
 on the racial, gender, and political make up of your committee?

For starters, can you post the names of the committee members?
 (Yes, people have sent me the BS about the fact that the
  list can not be published because these people would
  be over run with head hunters seeking them out...
  this is pure BS and is the result of the ANSI committee
  members deluding themselves into thinking that they
  are in high demand...)

>There is another reason: each meeting must be sponsored by a committee
>member.  Sponsorship is non-trivial -- to sponsor a meeting costs about
>$10,000.  Moreover, there is a requirement that the meeting be held
>within reasonable commuting distance of the sponsor's office.  This
>rule is to prevent people from offering to sponsor meetings in
>remote resort locations, for example.
>
What if their office is in the United States Virgin Islands?
 They have a bobsled team in the Winter Olympics.
 Could they host an ANSI meeting?
 Is that a "remote resort location"?

It is my understanding that the following meeting is being
sponsored by Sun.
Is that Sun Soft? or Sun Microsystems, Inc.?
 It makes a difference because in some cases we buy their
  hardware, in other cases we do not buy their software.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
NEXT MEETING PLACE AND TIME - No agenda has been prepared yet.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dates: July 10-14, 1995
Time:  8:30AM-5:00PM Daily
       (Also, some evening working group meetings will be held as needed)
Place: Monterey, California
Hotel: Marriott (I hope there is only one in Monterey)
------------------------------------------------------------------------

>This implies that the meeting locations are largely determined by
>the companies willing to cough up the cash to make them happen.
>AT&T, for example, has sponsored two meetings: one in Somerset, NJ
>through its (then) USL subsidiary and one in San Diego through its
>Global Information Solutions subsidiary (formerly known as NCR).
>IBM sponsored a meeting in Toronto, which is close to where they do
>their C++ compiler work.  Microsoft sponsored a meeting in Seattle.
>The British Standards Institute sponsored one in London.  And so on.
>

Summary:

 Past Sponsors of ANSI C++ Meetings
 ----------------------------------

 AT&T - Somerset, NJ
 NCR (now owned by AT&T) - San Diego
 IBM - Toronto, Canada (American National Standard?)
 Microsoft - Seattle, WA
 British Standards Institute - London, England (American?)
future:
 Sun Microsystems - Monterey, California
 ????? - Tokyo, Japan

Looks like some nice places. Not exactly "resorts", but nice.


>> Being required to attend meetings in order to vote means that the
>> voting members are making a significant investment in time and effort,
and
>> the hope is that this leads to focussed minds and serious work.
>
>...and not being allowed to vote until one's second meeting makes it
>more difficult for a bunch of people to influence the committee on
>short notice.
>--
>                                --Andrew Koenig
>                                  ark@research.att.com

Isn't true that most of the "focused" and "serious" work occurs
before the meeting and the meetings are used to "socialize" the
results.

That has been my first hand experience with the ASNI process.
 I wrote most of ANSI X3.110.
 AT&T took my name off of the document because I published
  articles on the standard in BYTE magazine...in 1982...


--
Jim Fleming            /|\      Unir Corporation       Unir Technology, Inc.
%Techno Cat I        /  | \     One Naperville Plaza   184 Shuman Blvd. #100
Penn's Landing      /   |  \    Naperville, IL 60563   Naperville, IL 60563
East End, Tortola  |____|___\   1-708-505-5801         1-800-222-UNIR(8647)
British Virgin Islands__|______ 1-708-305-3277 (FAX)   1-708-305-0600
                 \__/-------\__/       e-mail: jim.fleming@bytes.com
Smooth Sailing on Cruising C+@amarans  ftp: 199.3.34.12 <-----stargate----+
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\____to the end of the OuterNet_|

In article <3kkr0j$eu0@News1.mcs.com>,
Jim Fleming <jim.fleming@bytes.com> wrote:
> Since there is an ANSI standard for C, and since C++ is
> an incremental enhancement to C, why not just extend, ammend,
> revise, etc. the ANSI C standard to reflect the incremental
> additions?

Because C++ is a separate language. These so-called "incremental additions"
are the lion's share of the C++ standardization process. And in answer to
some of your other posts, the reason we need a standard for C++ is so that
our programs will do the same thing when ported to different platforms, and
indeed will work at all when compiled in a different environment than the
one in which they were developed. The reason the committee works in private
is because design by mob is a poor idea, and the signal-to-noise ratio on
the internet is woefully low. Committee members already know the issues
they are discussing, and don't need to re-explain them to every newbie who
comes along with the tenth rerun of a rejected idea. Meetings are held in
geographicly diverse regions because committee members come from diverse
regions. Being required to attend meetings in order to vote means that the
voting members are making a significant investment in time and effort, and
the hope is that this leads to focussed minds and serious work.

        Hymie

In article <3ktdag$he2@panix.com> hymie@panix.com (Hyman Rosen) writes:

> The reason the committee works in private
> is because design by mob is a poor idea, and the signal-to-noise ratio on
> the internet is woefully low.

The committee meetings are not private, but neither are they public.
The two barriers to entry: one must pay to join, and one must
travel to the meetings.

> Meetings are held in
> geographicly diverse regions because committee members come from diverse
> regions.

There is another reason: each meeting must be sponsored by a committee
member.  Sponsorship is non-trivial -- to sponsor a meeting costs about
$10,000.  Moreover, there is a requirement that the meeting be held
within reasonable commuting distance of the sponsor's office.  This
rule is to prevent people from offering to sponsor meetings in
remote resort locations, for example.

This implies that the meeting locations are largely determined by
the companies willing to cough up the cash to make them happen.
AT&T, for example, has sponsored two meetings: one in Somerset, NJ
through its (then) USL subsidiary and one in San Diego through its
Global Information Solutions subsidiary (formerly known as NCR).
IBM sponsored a meeting in Toronto, which is close to where they do
their C++ compiler work.  Microsoft sponsored a meeting in Seattle.
The British Standards Institute sponsored one in London.  And so on.

> Being required to attend meetings in order to vote means that the
> voting members are making a significant investment in time and effort, and
> the hope is that this leads to focussed minds and serious work.

...and not being allowed to vote until one's second meeting makes it
more difficult for a bunch of people to influence the committee on
short notice.
--
    --Andrew Koenig
      ark@research.att.com

jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim Fleming) writes:

>This is a dumb question. I am sure it has been asked before.
>Please pardon my late arrival in this process.
>
>Question:
> Since there is an ANSI standard for C, and since C++ is
> an incremental enhancement to C, why not just extend, ammend,
> revise, etc. the ANSI C standard to reflect the incremental
> additions?

The ANSI/ISO C standard _was_ one of the two base documents for
the current C++ standardization process.  (The other one was the ARM.)

--
Fergus Henderson - fjh@munta.cs.mu.oz.au

In article <3kkr0j$eu0@News1.mcs.com> jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim Fleming) writes:

   This is a dumb question. I am sure it has been asked before.
   Please pardon my late arrival in this process.

   Question:
    Since there is an ANSI standard for C, and since C++ is
    an incremental enhancement to C, why not just extend, ammend,
    revise, etc. the ANSI C standard to reflect the incremental
    additions?

1.  C++ is not completely compatible with the ANSI C standard.
    "The ideal is for C++ to be as close to ANSI C as possible--but
    no closer."  The differences between C and C++ are summarized
    in Section 18.2 of the ARM (The Annotated C++ Reference Manual).

2.  Even if C++ was completely compatible with C, it would not
    be wise to abandon the current ANSI C standard.  I suspect
    there are still many situations were an good ANSI C compiler is
    available but a good C++ compiler is not.

Jeff


Ref:

@book{ellis90,
  author = "Margaret A. Ellis and Bjarne Stroustrup",
  title = "The Annotated {C++} Reference Manual",
  publisher = "Addison-Wesley",
  address = "Reading, Massachusetts",
  year = 1990,
  call = "QA76.73.C153E35",
  isbn = "0-201-51459-1"}

This is a dumb question. I am sure it has been asked before.
Please pardon my late arrival in this process.

Question:
 Since there is an ANSI standard for C, and since C++ is
 an incremental enhancement to C, why not just extend, ammend,
 revise, etc. the ANSI C standard to reflect the incremental
 additions?


--
Jim Fleming            /|\      Unir Corporation       Unir Technology,
Inc.
%Techno Cat I        /  | \     One Naperville Plaza   184 Shuman Blvd.
#100
Penn's Landing      /   |  \    Naperville, IL 60563   Naperville, IL
60563
East End, Tortola  |____|___\   1-708-505-5801
1-800-222-UNIR(8647)
British Virgin Islands__|______ 1-708-305-3277 (FAX)   1-708-305-0600
                 \__/-------\__/       e-mail: jim.fleming@bytes.com
Smooth Sailing on Cruising C+@amarans
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OuterNet