jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim Fleming) writes:

>...On May 8, 1995 the world celebrates the 50th anniversary of the end
>of World War II. Recently, specials have been aired on the rise *and*
>fall of Adolph Hitler...

If I'm not mistaken, invocation of Hitler is the universal sign that a
thread has degenerated beyond repair. Time to move on.

Bob Foster
Object Factory
objfactory@aol.com

In article <JSULLIVA.242.0008C470@fhcrc.org> JSULLIVA@fhcrc.org (John Sullivan) writes:

>   >Think about what you are doing...millions followed Hitler and never
>   >evidently gave it a second thought...give C++ a second thought...consider
>   >alternatives...look closely at people's "academic" agendas...question
>   >everything...and if you still support it then great...once you reach
>   >that conclusion then you can probably "kill" anyone you want...is that
>   >your goal...???
>   >Jim Fleming            /|\      Unir Corporation       Unir Technology, Inc.
>
>   Well, there it is, he did it.  This thread is over.  In fact this group, nay,
>   the whole C++ programming language is now abolished.
>   Today C++, tomorrow...
>
>   Have you thought about a nice hobby, Jim?  Gardening or something?
>
>   John Sullivan

Puh!! This was just in time! I just started to concentrate to C++, now
I'll wait a little bit .... .
Please, send me a wake() as soon as the new language is up.

Greetings, Harald
--
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|   Harald Leinders                        hl@arthur.ph2.Uni-Koeln.De    |
|                                          abb03@rs1.rrz.Uni-Koeln.De    |
|   II. Phys. Inst., R209         +--------------------------------------+
|   Zuelpicher Strasse 77         |        **** Good News: ****          |
|   50937 Koeln                   |      Micro$oft is working on a       |
|   Tel.: 0221/470-3574           |  Windows 96 implementation of EDLIN. |
+---------------------------------+--------------------------------------+

In article <3l7u2r$q6q@News1.mcs.com> jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim Fleming) writes:

>Think about what you are doing...millions followed Hitler and never
>evidently gave it a second thought...give C++ a second thought...consider
>alternatives...look closely at people's "academic" agendas...question
>everything...and if you still support it then great...once you reach
>that conclusion then you can probably "kill" anyone you want...is that
>your goal...???
>Jim Fleming            /|\      Unir Corporation       Unir Technology, Inc.

Well, there it is, he did it.  This thread is over.  In fact this group, nay,
the whole C++ programming language is now abolished.
Today C++, tomorrow...

Have you thought about a nice hobby, Jim?  Gardening or something?

John Sullivan

In article <3ksnvu$2v3@f111.iassf.easams.com.au>,
rjl@f111.iassf.easams.com.au says...
>
>In article <3ko1fo$pff@news1.mcs.com>,
>Jim Fleming <jim.fleming@bytes.com> wrote:
>>If you have any of these attributes, limitations, restrictions, etc.
>>some of which may be God given and are not in your control...here is
>>an update on the ANSI Standards committee for The C++ Programming
Language.
>
>Well there are actually *two* standardisation processes going on in
>parallel - the ANSI and ISO ones.  They both have different processes,
>however are working together to produce a common standard.
>
>>
>>Before the update let me review some questions that I have asked and
>>received answers on:
>>
>>Q1. Has the ANSI committee considered using the Internet and some of
>>       its interactive forum capabilities to hold meetings?
>>
>>A1. No this has not and will not be considered because, get this,
>>       some of the people on the committee might not have "equal access"
>>       to the Internet and this would be unfair, instead committee
>>       members are expected to fly around the world at their own
>>       expense in order to meet face-to-face because that is fair.
>
>This is mis-informed twaddle.
>
>While the actually meetings for votes occur in "reality", most of the
>work and discussing involved before a meeting occurs via email.
>

So even though "some" have posted here that the Internet is not an
appropriate tool, you agree that the "InnerNet" (from inner circle)
e-mail is useful?


>Infact, in the ISO process, the actual people who are involved is up to
>the national bodies.  In Australia, we have a committee of "technical
>experts" who have an email reflector and regularly discuss issues related
to
>standardising c++.  These people collectively decide how the Australian
>ISO delegation will vote on the issues at a particular meeting.  Our
>standardisation body goes some way to meeting the costs of sending our
>delegation to ANSI/ISO standardisation meetings, so the cost is not
>necessarily outside the reach of everyone.
>
>Regards,
>        Rohan

This is great news!!!

Is there an ftp site which has the "archive" of the e-mail exchanges?

--
Jim Fleming            /|\      Unir Corporation       Unir Technology, Inc.
%Techno Cat I        /  | \     One Naperville Plaza   184 Shuman Blvd. #100
Penn's Landing      /   |  \    Naperville, IL 60563   Naperville, IL 60563
East End, Tortola  |____|___\   1-708-505-5801         1-800-222-UNIR(8647)
British Virgin Islands__|______ 1-708-305-3277 (FAX)   1-708-305-0600
                 \__/-------\__/       e-mail: jim.fleming@bytes.com
Smooth Sailing on Cruising C+@amarans  ftp: 199.3.34.12 <-----stargate----+
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\____to the end of the OuterNet_|

jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim Fleming) writes:

  A whole bunch of stuff deleted.

I know this is out of context but how do I add this guy to my kill file?

--

John Morey - jmorey@crl.com

In article <3l7no0$6hk@crl7.crl.com>, jmorey@crl.com says...
>
>jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim Fleming) writes:
>
>  A whole bunch of stuff deleted.
>
>I know this is out of context but how do I add this guy to my kill file?
>
>--
>
>John Morey - jmorey@crl.com

You may be getting a little out of date...most people now take a more
positive approach to Usenet. They have a filter with names of people
they "read", that way they filter in what they consider to be "signal"
and the rest is considered noise.

This new more modern approach is similar to what happens on television,
radio, and in newspapers and magazines. Many people start their day
with a newspaper reading certain writer's work. They do not take every
paper in the world, take all postings about a topic and attempt to
read all of the headlines and digest the contents. Instead, they decide
based on past experience who their sources of information are going to
be.

In this day and age, a more "positive" approach is not to "kill" but
to select the material *you* want to read. The best way to do that is
to filter IN, not OUT, unless of course you choose to read everything
except what a few write. As Usenet grows that approach does not scale.
The filter IN approach has been proven to work for many years.

On May 8, 1995 the world celebrates the 50th anniversary of the end
of World War II. Recently, specials have been aired on the rise *and*
fall of Adolph Hitler. I suggest that you watch those specials carefully
and not that the people in those films (recently released) are cheering
and defending a clearly misdirected "national agenda". As you proceed
with your ANSI work, I suggest that you all evaluate how you came to
believe what you believe. Ask yourself, is there any room for questions,
is there any room for "real" disagreement?  Is censorship your "solution".
Is "kill" your "ultimate solution"?

Think about what you are doing...millions followed Hitler and never
evidently gave it a second thought...give C++ a second thought...consider
alternatives...look closely at people's "academic" agendas...question
everything...and if you still support it then great...once you reach
that conclusion then you can probably "kill" anyone you want...is that
your goal...???

--
Jim Fleming            /|\      Unir Corporation       Unir Technology, Inc.
%Techno Cat I        /  | \     One Naperville Plaza   184 Shuman Blvd. #100
Penn's Landing      /   |  \    Naperville, IL 60563   Naperville, IL 60563
East End, Tortola  |____|___\   1-708-505-5801         1-800-222-UNIR(8647)
British Virgin Islands__|______ 1-708-305-3277 (FAX)   1-708-305-0600
                 \__/-------\__/       e-mail: jim.fleming@bytes.com
Smooth Sailing on Cruising C+@amarans  ftp: 199.3.34.12 <-----stargate----+
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\____to the end of the OuterNet_|

Oh, this is too much.  Forwarded to alt.usenet.kooks.

Thank you, Jim, for helping me to realize that my participation in the C++
standardization process is tantamount to genocide.

Jason

To me the most astounding thing about Fleming's posts are that he probably
thinks his arguments are doing something to promote his causes. In fact, he is
harming C+@ more than any C++ cabal ever could.

Perhaps there is something to C+@, but instead all we hear is ridiculous cant
from the Messiah of the NuttyNet.

Brian
--
       Brian Glendenning - National Radio Astronomy Observatory
bglenden@nrao.edu          Charlottesville Va.           (804) 296-0286

In article <3ko1fo$pff@News1.mcs.com> jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim Fleming) writes:
>Q1. Has the ANSI committee considered using the Internet and some of
> its interactive forum capabilities to hold meetings?
>
>A1. No this has not and will not be considered because, get this,
> some of the people on the committee might not have "equal access"
> to the Internet and this would be unfair, instead committee
> members are expected to fly around the world at their own
> expense in order to meet face-to-face because that is fair.

The ISO committee is international, and there are still many countries with
no Internet connections, and many other countries that are connected but
have very limited accessibility for individuals to the Internet.  In fact,
I recall that my former employer's Japanese office was having a hard time
getting an Internet connection about a year ago (I think it has since
gotten easier).

In the ANSI X3J13 (Common Lisp) committee we made arrangements for members
who didn't have Internet access from their employers to get accounts from
other members, just so they could get our email.  However, I admit that
this was much more feasible in a single-country committee whose maximum
size was about 40 people, with only 2 or 3 requiring the special access.
Such special deals would be harder to arrange in a committee like X3J16 and
its counterparts in ISO and other nations.

As for the expense of face-to-face meetings, remember that ANSI/ISO
standards are intended for *commercial* purposes.  Attending relevant
industry meetings is considered a normal business expense.  If you can't
afford to attend, this may indicate that the outcome of the meeting doesn't
have much financial impact on your business.

Note that it's not necessary to be a committee member in order to influence
the standard.  Besides informal mechanisms like this newsgroup, ANSI and
ISO standards go through a period of public review, at which time anyone
may comment and suggest changes.  The committee is the final arbiter of
whether those changes should be adopted, but your comments will be
officially recorded.
--
Barry Margolin
BBN Planet Corporation, Cambridge, MA
barmar@bbnplanet.com

In article <3kvo76$qam@tools.near.net>, barmar@nic.near.net says...
>
>In article <3ko1fo$pff@News1.mcs.com> jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim Fleming)
writes:
>>Q1. Has the ANSI committee considered using the Internet and some of
>>       its interactive forum capabilities to hold meetings?
>>
>>A1. No this has not and will not be considered because, get this,
>>       some of the people on the committee might not have "equal access"
>>       to the Internet and this would be unfair, instead committee
>>       members are expected to fly around the world at their own
>>       expense in order to meet face-to-face because that is fair.
>

>As for the expense of face-to-face meetings, remember that ANSI/ISO
>standards are intended for *commercial* purposes.  Attending relevant
>industry meetings is considered a normal business expense.  If you can't
>afford to attend, this may indicate that the outcome of the meeting doesn't
>have much financial impact on your business.
>
>Barry Margolin
>BBN Planet Corporation, Cambridge, MA
>barmar@bbnplanet.com

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Hold on here, in 1993 my company was assured by the lawyers of AT&T Bell
Laboratories as well as by attorneys respresenting Mr. Robert Allen, the
Chairman of AT&T, that Mr. Bjarne Stroustrup and/or his associates at AT&T
Bell Laboraotories, NEVER engages in any "commercial" activities, that
his activities and discussions are purely "academic" and therefore can
have no impact on anyone's business.

Are you disputing these claims?

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
--
Jim Fleming            /|\      Unir Corporation       Unir Technology, Inc.
%Techno Cat I        /  | \     One Naperville Plaza   184 Shuman Blvd. #100
Penn's Landing      /   |  \    Naperville, IL 60563   Naperville, IL 60563
East End, Tortola  |____|___\   1-708-505-5801         1-800-222-UNIR(8647)
British Virgin Islands__|______ 1-708-305-3277 (FAX)   1-708-305-0600
                 \__/-------\__/       e-mail: jim.fleming@bytes.com
Smooth Sailing on Cruising C+@amarans  ftp: 199.3.34.12 <-----stargate----+
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\____to the end of the OuterNet_|

In article <3l1feu$lsr@News1.mcs.com>,
Jim Fleming <jim.fleming@bytes.com> wrote:
>Hold on here, in 1993 my company was assured by the lawyers of AT&T Bell
>Laboratories as well as by attorneys respresenting Mr. Robert Allen, the
>Chairman of AT&T, that Mr. Bjarne Stroustrup and/or his associates at AT&T
>Bell Laboraotories, NEVER engages in any "commercial" activities, that
>his activities and discussions are purely "academic" and therefore can
>have no impact on anyone's business.
>
>Are you disputing these claims?
>

The replies are disputing your ability to judge those claims.  Taking
part in the standards-creation process is not a "commercial activity".
If your company or organization has a vested interest in the outcome of
the standards making process, then you can "afford" to attend most of
the meetings.  When I say vested, I mean it in the usual sense of the
word -- company or career.

In article <3ko1fo$pff@News1.mcs.com>, jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim Fleming) says:
>
>
>This posting is ONLY for Internet users with one or more of the
>following attributes:
>
>1. Those who are NOT a member of the ANSI Standards Committee
>2. Those who do not have the time or employer support for membership.
>3. Those who do not have the financial resources for membership.
>4. Those who can not afford to travel to California or Tokyo.
>5. Those who do not have the proper diplomas to qualify as an expert.
>6. Those who may be handicapped and confined to your homes.
>7. Those who live in countries that restrict your activities.
>
>If you have any of these attributes, limitations, restrictions, etc.
>some of which may be God given and are not in your control...here is
>an update on the ANSI Standards committee for The C++ Programming Language.
>
>Before the update let me review some questions that I have asked and
>received answers on:
>
>Q1. Has the ANSI committee considered using the Internet and some of
>        its interactive forum capabilities to hold meetings?
>
>A1. No this has not and will not be considered because

This is false. It was considered.

>, get this,
>        some of the people on the committee might not have "equal access"
>        to the Internet and this would be unfair, instead committee
>        members are expected to fly around the world at their own
>        expense in order to meet face-to-face because that is fair.
>
>Q2. Will the public comments be posted to this newsgroup?
>
>A2. This seems doubtful because I have been informed that the "official"
>        means of communication by ANSI committees is via *paper*.

Again, false. In fact, the preference for public comments for C++ is
that they be sent electronically. Details will be made available as part
of the public comment process.

>        I have been asked if I would be willing to collect public
>        comments via the Internet and to convert them to paper for
>        submission as a public service to all of you. I am willing
>        to do this. If you mail me your public comments with the
>        "Subject: ANSI C++ public comments" I will make sure that
>        they get printed and sent to the committee (if I can find
>        them). Also, if you post messages to this newsgroup using,
>        again, the Subject field, ANSI C++ public comments, then
>        I will make sure they get "printed" and sent.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>NEXT MEETING PLACE AND TIME - No agenda has been prepared yet.
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Dates: July 10-14, 1995
>Time:  8:30AM-5:00PM Daily
>       (Also, some evening working group meetings will be held as needed)
>Place: Monterey, California
>Hotel: Marriott (I hope there is only one in Monterey)
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Here is the agenda for the last meeting
>It can give you a feel for the topics.
>It helps identify some of the people doing the "work"...
>I think the From: bs stands for Bjarne Stroustrup
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Date: Wed, 25 Jan 95 16:27 EST
>From: bs
>Subject: Extensions WG aggenda
>To: C++ committee
>...

As the message title clearly states, this was the agenda for the
extensions working group. It was not the agenda for the meeting.

In article <3ko1fo$pff@news1.mcs.com>,
Jim Fleming <jim.fleming@bytes.com> wrote:
>If you have any of these attributes, limitations, restrictions, etc.
>some of which may be God given and are not in your control...here is
>an update on the ANSI Standards committee for The C++ Programming Language.

Well there are actually *two* standardisation processes going on in
parallel - the ANSI and ISO ones.  They both have different processes,
however are working together to produce a common standard.

>
>Before the update let me review some questions that I have asked and
>received answers on:
>
>Q1. Has the ANSI committee considered using the Internet and some of
> its interactive forum capabilities to hold meetings?
>
>A1. No this has not and will not be considered because, get this,
> some of the people on the committee might not have "equal access"
> to the Internet and this would be unfair, instead committee
> members are expected to fly around the world at their own
> expense in order to meet face-to-face because that is fair.

This is mis-informed twaddle.

While the actually meetings for votes occur in "reality", most of the
work and discussing involved before a meeting occurs via email.

Infact, in the ISO process, the actual people who are involved is up to
the national bodies.  In Australia, we have a committee of "technical
experts" who have an email reflector and regularly discuss issues related to
standardising c++.  These people collectively decide how the Australian
ISO delegation will vote on the issues at a particular meeting.  Our
standardisation body goes some way to meeting the costs of sending our
delegation to ANSI/ISO standardisation meetings, so the cost is not
necessarily outside the reach of everyone.

Regards,
 Rohan
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
rjl@iassf.easams.com.au | All quotes can be attributed to my automated quote
Rohan Lenard            | writing tool.  Yours for just $19.95; and if you
+61-2-367-4555          | call now you'll get a free set of steak knives ...

This posting is ONLY for Internet users with one or more of the
following attributes:

1. Those who are NOT a member of the ANSI Standards Committee
2. Those who do not have the time or employer support for membership.
3. Those who do not have the financial resources for membership.
4. Those who can not afford to travel to California or Tokyo.
5. Those who do not have the proper diplomas to qualify as an expert.
6. Those who may be handicapped and confined to your homes.
7. Those who live in countries that restrict your activities.

If you have any of these attributes, limitations, restrictions, etc.
some of which may be God given and are not in your control...here is
an update on the ANSI Standards committee for The C++ Programming Language.

Before the update let me review some questions that I have asked and
received answers on:

Q1. Has the ANSI committee considered using the Internet and some of
 its interactive forum capabilities to hold meetings?

A1. No this has not and will not be considered because, get this,
 some of the people on the committee might not have "equal access"
 to the Internet and this would be unfair, instead committee
 members are expected to fly around the world at their own
 expense in order to meet face-to-face because that is fair.

Q2. Will the public comments be posted to this newsgroup?

A2. This seems doubtful because I have been informed that the "official"
 means of communication by ANSI committees is via *paper*.
 I have been asked if I would be willing to collect public
 comments via the Internet and to convert them to paper for
 submission as a public service to all of you. I am willing
 to do this. If you mail me your public comments with the
 "Subject: ANSI C++ public comments" I will make sure that
 they get printed and sent to the committee (if I can find
 them). Also, if you post messages to this newsgroup using,
 again, the Subject field, ANSI C++ public comments, then
 I will make sure they get "printed" and sent.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
NEXT MEETING PLACE AND TIME - No agenda has been prepared yet.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dates: July 10-14, 1995
Time:  8:30AM-5:00PM Daily
       (Also, some evening working group meetings will be held as needed)
Place: Monterey, California
Hotel: Marriott (I hope there is only one in Monterey)

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is the agenda for the last meeting
It can give you a feel for the topics.
It helps identify some of the people doing the "work"...
I think the From: bs stands for Bjarne Stroustrup
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Jan 95 16:27 EST
From: bs
Subject: Extensions WG aggenda
To: C++ committee

In Austin, we will have about a day and a half for WG sessions before
the votes. That is 12 to 14 hours if we are really dedicated (and we
will have to be to get our work done).

Based on experience, I estimate that we can resolve 8 to 10 issues
provided we have good analysis document in advance (and we have read
them). The better the preparation, the more issues we can deal with.

These are the issues we decided in Valley Forge that we had to deal
with in Austin:

 Template issues, incl. indirect name injection, context merging.
  (John Spicer).

 Placement new and delete.
  (Bill Gibbons).

 Member template issues.
  (Mike Ball).

 Partial specialization and overloading.
  (Bjarne Stroustrup).

 Dynamic_cast, throw/catch accessibility
  (Bjarne Stroustrup).

 Exception issues incl. Xunexpected class specification,
  catch clauses for base and member initializers.
  (Dmitry Lenkov).

 Pointer to member issues.
  (Bill Gibbons).

 Details of `explict' (check `explicit operator X()' for snags).
  (Gavin Koch).

 Integration of template syntax with the rest of the grammar.
  (Bjarne Stroustrup).

I hope we will get papers, preferably in the pre-Austin mailing). Hint. Hint

I also hope we can get the issues aired on the -ext reflector. I will try to
ensure that discussions focus on one topic at a time so that we have a
chance
of converging.

In addition we must resolve the issus of what to do with examples such as

 namespace X {
  class Z { ... };
  operator<<(std::ostream&,Z&);
  // ...
 }

 // ...

 X::Z obj;
 cout << obj;

which I suspect will have to be made to work.

If you have more issues you consider crucial, please mail me and so I'll
know about them when planning the extensions WG aggenda.

Note that several issues affects the library group so it would be most
useful to have a good general idea of the likely resolutions at the start
of the Austin meeting.

Please post language-technical followups to -ext.

 - Bjarne
--
Jim Fleming            /|\      Unir Corporation       Unir Technology, Inc.
%Techno Cat I        /  | \     One Naperville Plaza   184 Shuman Blvd. #100
Penn's Landing      /   |  \    Naperville, IL 60563   Naperville, IL 60563
East End, Tortola  |____|___\   1-708-505-5801         1-800-222-UNIR(8647)
British Virgin Islands__|(:-)___1-708-305-3277 (FAX)   1-708-305-0600
                 \__/-------\__/       e-mail: jim.fleming@bytes.com
Smooth Sailing on Cruising C+@amarans  ftp: 199.3.34.12 <-----stargate----+
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\____to the end of the OuterNet_|