In article <CwFw1n.E8u@dcs.ed.ac.uk> ddr@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Douglas Rogers) writes:
>In article <CwFApD.H1I@scone.london.sco.com>, clive@sco.com (Clive D.W. Feather) writes:
>>
>> [BTW, how come this "CFD: Breaking comp.std.c" has only just appeared in
>> comp.std.c ?]
>
>Because it was "CFD: Breaking comp.std.c++"  and someone must have cross posted
>and removed the ++!

Yes.  Would the bonehead who did that please stand up?

(Discussing such a change in *either* one of these two groups at a time is
complicated enough!)

>The argument in comp.std.c++ has been to rename the newsgroup to avoid
>mis-postings by new and nieve net users. Many users also would like to see the
>traffic on comp.lang.c++ go down and reckon that this  is a major problem. As
>a regular reader of comp.lang.c and newly arrived in comp.lang.c++ I note that
>the former group has a healthy attitude to mis-postings...

Perhaps so, but the problem of mis-postings is a big one in both comp.std.c++
and in comp.std.c.  Both of these groups have suffered for some time with
a roughly 30-40% share of misplaced postings.

For quite some time now, I've been doing my best (quietly, and in the
background... via private E-mail messages) to gently nudge the innumerable
newbies who have made blatantly misplaced postings to either of these groups
over to comp.lang.c++ and comp.lang.c (respectively).  But it is an ongoing
battle.  `The Net' is expanding by leaps and bounds everyday, and neither
any manditory training nor any intelligence tests are administered to the
tens of thousands of new arrivals who now join our ranks every month.

It is almost enough to make old codgers like me yearn for the good ol' days.
(1/2 :-)
--

-- Ron Guilmette, Sunnyvale, CA ---------- RG Consulting -------------------
---- domain addr: rfg@netcom.com ----------- Purveyors of Compiler Test ----
---- uucp addr: ...!uunet!netcom!rfg ------- Suites and Bullet-Proof Shoes -

In article <1994Sep23.143714.27218@us.dg.com> Don_Lewine@dg.com writes:
>I think the percentage of "on-topic" post is high and I do not feel we
>need any action to change it.  [...]
>Even the "off-topic" posts are not that far off topic.

I disagree with the latter statement but agree with the former one, and
think the former one is sufficient.

>I say, "It ain't broke, don't fix it"

Ah, but you miss the point of this thread.  As the subject says, the
newsgroup is fixed, and they want to break it :-)
--
 <<  If this were the company's opinion, I would not be allowed to post it.  >>
segmentation fault (california dumped)

karish@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Chuck Karish) writes:

>In article <35s31a$7j3@pssparc2.oc.com>,
>Larry Weiss <lfw@pssparc2.oc.com> wrote:
>>A great idea!  I predict that at some time in the future we'll see
>>newsgroup heirarchies organized in such rational fashion.

>While we're at it, we might as well make an alias so that
>readers can also find the group as comp.std.ansix3-159 (oops!
>won't work on DOS), along with a text filter to munge the
>chapter numbers according to which group name the reader uses.
  ...
>The name "comp.std.c" is accurate and expressive.  Renaming the
>newsgroups would do little to teach people that C and C++ are
>different languages, but it would make it more difficult for
>people to find the groups.  Please, let's leave the names as
>they are.
>--

Sometimes, one of those remarks from the "unwashed" does provoke
some interesting conversation.   If the name of the most-likely
newsgroup to contain serious discussions of the ISO "C" language
does change, it will be an evolutionary process, involving
other newsgroups with similar charters.

I am predicting that that process will occur.
I am also predicting that the process will involve newsgroups
whose names are based on the actual standards' organizations
and document names.
I don't have a prediction as to the eventual winner in any sense.
--
Larry Weiss, lfw@oc.com
214/888-0471

|> : Stan Friesen (swf@ElSegundoCA.NCR.COM) wrote:
|> : IMHO The best way to cut down off-topic posts is to have a moderator.
|> : If this is not possible, ie no one has the time, then someone could still
|> : post a 'read before posting' a few times a month. Otherwise follow the rule
|> : of not answering off-topic posts except for a polite mail message to say
|> : they would do better elsewhere.

Of the newsgroups I read, comp.std.c seems to be one of the
more self-controled.  I think the percentage of "on-topic"
post is high and I do not feel we need any action to change
it.

The polite mail messages seem to do the job.

There are not long threads on the first amendment, gun control,
or the clipper chip.  Even the "off-topic" posts are not that
far off topic.  I say, "It ain't broke, don't fix it"

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Donald A. Lewine                (508) 898-6488 Voice
Data General Corporation        (508) 366-0750 FAX
4400 Computer Drive. MS D112A
Westboro, MA 01580  U.S.A.

Internet: Don_Lewine@dg.com -or-
          dlewine@cheshirecat.webo.dg.com

All opinions in this message are logical, well reasoned and my own.

In article <Cw64zK.E6@ukpsshp1.serigate.philips.nl> baynes@ukpsshp1.serigate.philips.nl (Stephen Baynes) writes:
>Stan Friesen (swf@ElSegundoCA.NCR.COM) wrote:
>: In article <2802.1272.uupcb@lightspeed.com>, chris.smith@lightspeed.com (Chris Smith) writes:
>: |> BRG>|> In article <CvHBx3.AoJ@world.std.com> tob@world.std.com suggests:
>: |> BRG>|> [... rename this newgroup to: ]
>: |> BRG>|> >comp.std.x3j16-wg21
>: |> BRG>|>
>: |> Great idea. That should cut down significantly, the off-topic posts.
>
>: Except that it will also cut down on *on*topic posts - from new
>: people who are interested in the standardization process but do
>: not recognize the committee's name.
>
>: [I would probably have missed this group is it were named as suggested].
>
>I agree.
>
>IMHO The best way to cut down off-topic posts is to have a moderator.

I will be more that happy to THREATEN to volunteer to be moderator, but
only on the (easily satisfied) condition that this will frighten one or
more of the _other_ regular readers/contributors into volunteering for
this job themselves (so that I don't really have to do it).

:-)

--

-- Ron Guilmette, Sunnyvale, CA ---------- RG Consulting -------------------
---- domain addr: rfg@netcom.com ----------- Purveyors of Compiler Test ----
---- uucp addr: ...!uunet!netcom!rfg ------- Suites and Bullet-Proof Shoes -

In article <35m8qn$t0u@triode.apana.org.au> bena@triode.apana.org.au writes:

>
>What about comp.standardization.c ?
>
>It took me a while to work out the distinction between comp.lang.c and
>comp.std.c.  comp.standard.c wouldn't have been any better.  I assumed
>it was just a newsgroup about standard C as opposed some variant
>somewhere.  Afterall, there are other newsgroups which are duplicated
>and different names.  But by using the verb form, we are clearly talking
>about standardizing C.
>
Frankly, as long as it has .c at the end, I think you will still
get off-topic posts.  Netters just catch sight of that and don't
bother looking (or thinking) any further.

The corollory is that eliminating .C from the group name might
well stop the problem.  This would be possible if people were
happy with  comp.std.iso9899, for instance.

In article <35s31a$7j3@pssparc2.oc.com>,
Larry Weiss <lfw@pssparc2.oc.com> wrote:
>ian@soliton.demon.co.uk (Ian Cargill) writes:
>>The corollory is that eliminating .C from the group name might
>>well stop the problem.  This would be possible if people were
>>happy with  comp.std.iso9899, for instance.
>
>A great idea!  I predict that at some time in the future we'll see
>newsgroup heirarchies organized in such rational fashion.

While we're at it, we might as well make an alias so that
readers can also find the group as comp.std.ansix3-159 (oops!
won't work on DOS), along with a text filter to munge the
chapter numbers according to which group name the reader uses.

If the perceived problem is that the group name is not
sufficiently arcane to prevent interested readers from finding
it, there are more effective ways to hide from the great
unwashed: invitation-only mailing lists, moderation, group
names translated into dead languages, and so on.

The name "comp.std.c" is accurate and expressive.  Renaming the
newsgroups would do little to teach people that C and C++ are
different languages, but it would make it more difficult for
people to find the groups.  Please, let's leave the names as
they are.
--

    Chuck Karish          karish@mindcraft.com
    (415) 323-9000 x117   karish@pangea.stanford.edu

Stephen Baynes (baynes@ukpsshp1.serigate.philips.nl) wrote:
: Stan Friesen (swf@ElSegundoCA.NCR.COM) wrote:
: : chris.smith@lightspeed.com (Chris Smith) writes:
: : |> BRG>|>  tob@world.std.com suggests:
: : |> BRG>|> [... rename this newgroup to: ]
: : |> BRG>|> >comp.std.x3j16-wg21
: : |> Great idea. That should cut down significantly, the off-topic posts.
: : Except that it will also cut down on *on*topic posts
: I agree.

Me too.  But the idea has some merit.

What about comp.standardization.c ?

It took me a while to work out the distinction between comp.lang.c and
comp.std.c.  comp.standard.c wouldn't have been any better.  I assumed
it was just a newsgroup about standard C as opposed some variant
somewhere.  Afterall, there are other newsgroups which are duplicated
and different names.  But by using the verb form, we are clearly talking
about standardizing C.

: IMHO The best way to cut down off-topic posts is to have a moderator.
: If this is not possible, ie no one has the time, then someone could still
: post a 'read before posting' a few times a month. Otherwise follow the rule
: of not answering off-topic posts except for a polite mail message to say
: they would do better elsewhere.

A moderator might be OK in std.c++ but I think the volume in std.c might
be too much.

Enough beating my own drum.

Regards, Ben

PS, I've copied this to comp.std.{c,c++}  I know it applies to both
groups, and it's better to keep them in step & find one solution that
applies to both.

In article <35m8qn$t0u@triode.apana.org.au>,
Ben Aveling <bena@triode.apana.org.au> wrote:
> What about comp.standardization.c ?
>
> It took me a while to work out the distinction between comp.lang.c and
> comp.std.c.  comp.standard.c wouldn't have been any better.  I assumed
> it was just a newsgroup about standard C as opposed some variant
> somewhere.  Afterall, there are other newsgroups which are duplicated
> and different names.  But by using the verb form, we are clearly talking
> about standardizing C.

C is already standardized.

My newsreader tells me:
    comp.std.c              Discussion about C language standards.
    comp.std.c++            Discussion about C++ language, library, standards.

What's wrong with the present names ?

[BTW, how come this "CFD: Breaking comp.std.c" has only just appeared in
comp.std.c ?]

--
Clive D.W. Feather     | Santa Cruz Operation    | If you lie to the compiler,
clive@sco.com          | Croxley Centre          | it will get its revenge.
Phone: +44 1923 813541 | Hatters Lane, Watford   |   - Henry Spencer
Fax:   +44 1923 813811 | WD1 8YN, United Kingdom | <= NOTE: NEW PHONE NUMBERS

In article <CwFApD.H1I@scone.london.sco.com>, clive@sco.com (Clive D.W. Feather) writes:
>
> [BTW, how come this "CFD: Breaking comp.std.c" has only just appeared in
> comp.std.c ?]

Because it was "CFD: Breaking comp.std.c++"  and someone must have cross posted
and removed the ++!

The argument in comp.std.c++ has been to rename the newsgroup to avoid
mis-postings by new and nieve net users. Many users also would like to see the
traffic on comp.lang.c++ go down and reckon that this  is a major problem. As
a regular reader of comp.lang.c and newly arrived in comp.lang.c++ I note that
the former group has a healthy attitude to mis-postings, by only replying
in one of two ways

 1) Following up stating that this is not appropriate to the newsgroup for the
    question

 2) Replying to some standards related point in the posting which provokes an
    interesting thread of discussion


By this method the string of follow up messages unrelated to the group is avoided and
and in fact these mis-postings are then a source of discussion and rarely an
annoyance.

May I encourage comp.std.c++ users to employ the same etiquete as those on comp.std.c
and keep the angst level down?


--
Douglas

---
=============================================================================
Douglas Rogers  MAIL: ddr@dcs.ed.ac.uk  Tel: +44 31-650 5172 (direct dial)
                                        Fax: +44 31-667 7209
============================= Mostly harmless ===============================

In article <35m8qn$t0u@triode.apana.org.au>,
Ben Aveling <bena@triode.apana.org.au> wrote:
>Stephen Baynes (baynes@ukpsshp1.serigate.philips.nl) wrote:
>: Stan Friesen (swf@ElSegundoCA.NCR.COM) wrote:
>: : chris.smith@lightspeed.com (Chris Smith) writes:
>: : |> BRG>|>  tob@world.std.com suggests:
>: : |> BRG>|> [... rename this newgroup to: ]
>: : |> BRG>|> >comp.std.x3j16-wg21
>: : |> Great idea. That should cut down significantly, the off-topic posts.
>: : Except that it will also cut down on *on*topic posts
>: I agree.
>
>Me too.  But the idea has some merit.
>
>What about comp.standardization.c ?
>
    bleh.

    1) read comp.lang.c before comp.std.c
    2) if you still see cross-posted messages that
 you didn't choose to read the first time, RTFM
 or get a better news reader.
    3) if you still have too much traffic after 1&2,
 either get a better news reader, or enhance your
 intestinal fortitude.

talking about splitting and/or renaming a low volume newsgroup
is silly.

ignoring off topic posts is typically easy; for example,
I don't read postings in this newsgroup that have subjects like
"help! non-resizable windows in OWL!" or "printf is broken!", and
then flame those who post non-germane babblings with
legitamate-looking subjects.
--
Maurice S. Barnum               ==    I speak for me, not my employer.
xmsb@genghis.borland.com        ||    "There is no confusion like the
mosigbit@deeptht.armory.com     ||    confusion of a simple mind."
mbarnum@nyx.cs.du.edu           ==       -- F. Scott Fitzgerald

In article <9426115.4741@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU>, fjh@munta.cs.mu.OZ.AU (Fergus Henderson) writes:
|> barmar@nic.near.net (Barry Margolin) writes:
|> >
|> >I don't know about you, but I don't read every repost of a FAQ in an area
|> >I'm pretty familiar with.
|>
|> I don't either.  But I do read a newsgroup's FAQ list at least once
|> before posting.

Assuming I followed that policy - I read the C++ FAQ *long* before
there was a C++ standardization effort.

What Barry and I are saying is that a FAQ is not quite as visible as
you might think.  They are mostly read when somebody has a particular
question they think may have been answered.  Unless somebody has some
reason to suspect thiere *is* a C++ standards group, the name of it
is not a question they will be looking to answer!

|> I guess you are suggesting that there is a significant group of people
|> who have already read the comp.lang.c++ FAQ list and who might
|> therefore miss any new additions to that list. ...

Or how about people new to C++ who read the FAQ before they understand
the relationships of things, and forget 90% of what they read (like
about everyone who reads sucha large document), and then *later*
realize they are intereted in the standardization process.

Or, for that matter, given the sheer *size* of the FAQ's, and the
large number of trivial questions answered in most, many people find
them well nigh unreadable, except as a reference source - rather
like an encyclopedia.

--
swf@elsegundoca.ncr.com  sarima@netcom.com

The peace of God be with you.

In article <9425914.11553@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU> fjh@munta.cs.mu.OZ.AU (Fergus Henderson) writes:
>swf@ElSegundoCA.NCR.COM (Stan Friesen) writes:
>>[I would probably have missed this group is it were named as suggested].
>Have you read the comp.lang.c++ FAQ list?

I don't know about you, but I don't read every repost of a FAQ in an area
I'm pretty familiar with.  Most FAQs are too big to read casually.  The C++
FAQ, in particular, is enormous.  I'm listed as one of the authors of the
Lisp FAQ, yet I don't think I've *ever* read it in its entirety since it
grew big enough to be split into multiple postings.  I occasionally scan
the abridged version of the C FAQ.

They're best used as references when you have a question, to see whether
it's already answered there.  However, people don't usually think to ask
about groups like comp.std.XXX -- they notice them in their newsreaders,
and decide which look interesting.  And unless someone is already pretty
familiar with C++ standardization, comp.std.X3j16-wg21 is not going to look
interesting to them.

But maybe that's what you want.... :-(
--

Barry Margolin
BBN Internet Services Corp.
barmar@near.net

barmar@nic.near.net (Barry Margolin) writes:

>fjh@munta.cs.mu.OZ.AU (Fergus Henderson) writes:
>>swf@ElSegundoCA.NCR.COM (Stan Friesen) writes:
>>>[I would probably have missed this group is it were named as suggested].
>>Have you read the comp.lang.c++ FAQ list?
>
>I don't know about you, but I don't read every repost of a FAQ in an area
>I'm pretty familiar with.

I don't either.  But I do read a newsgroup's FAQ list at least once
before posting.

I guess you are suggesting that there is a significant group of people
who have already read the comp.lang.c++ FAQ list and who might
therefore miss any new additions to that list.  Perhaps the answer is
to provide other sources of information that would lead people to find
comp.std.x3j16-wg21.  How about if a "READ THIS BEFORE POSTING" notice
was posted in comp.lang.c++ every week?  The notice could describe what
was suitable in comp.lang.c++, and point people to comp.std.x3j16-wg21
and other relevant newsgroups (comp.os.msdos.programmer, for example).
Would that be a sufficiently prominent pointer to comp.std.x3j16-wg21?

I expect that there would still be some degree of cross-posting between
here and comp.lang.c++, so people could also find out by looking at the
"Newsgroups" line of articles posted in comp.lang.c++.

>And unless someone is already pretty
>familiar with C++ standardization, comp.std.X3j16-wg21 is not going to look
>interesting to them.
>
>But maybe that's what you want.... :-(

No.

I'm arguing in favour of the name change because I think that has the
potential to reduce the amount of noise, and so I think it is an idea
which is worth exploring.  I don't want to make the group inaccessible
to those unfamiliar with C++ standardization.  Personally, when I
started reading comp.std.c++ a couple of years ago, I was certainly not
that familiar with C++ standardization.

--
Fergus Henderson - fjh@munta.cs.mu.oz.au

Stan Friesen (swf@ElSegundoCA.NCR.COM) wrote:
: In article <2802.1272.uupcb@lightspeed.com>, chris.smith@lightspeed.com (Chris Smith) writes:
: |> BRG>|> In article <CvHBx3.AoJ@world.std.com> tob@world.std.com suggests:
: |> BRG>|> [... rename this newgroup to: ]
: |> BRG>|> >comp.std.x3j16-wg21
: |> BRG>|>
: |> Great idea. That should cut down significantly, the off-topic posts.

: Except that it will also cut down on *on*topic posts - from new
: people who are interested in the standardization process but do
: not recognize the committee's name.

: [I would probably have missed this group is it were named as suggested].

I agree.

IMHO The best way to cut down off-topic posts is to have a moderator.
If this is not possible, ie no one has the time, then someone could still
post a 'read before posting' a few times a month. Otherwise follow the rule
of not answering off-topic posts except for a polite mail message to say
they would do better elsewhere.

--
Stephen Baynes                              baynes@mulsoc2.serigate.philips.nl
Philips Semicondutors Ltd
Southampton                                 My views are my own.
United Kingdom

In article <9425914.11553@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU>, fjh@munta.cs.mu.OZ.AU (Fergus Henderson) writes:
|> swf@ElSegundoCA.NCR.COM (Stan Friesen) writes:
|> >Except that it will also cut down on *on*topic posts ...
|>
|> That's why there would be a pointer to comp.std.x3j16-wg21 in the
|> comp.lang.c++ FAQ list.

Oh, that's a *real* big help :->
Yeah, place a pointer to the standards group in a posting in a group
with so much traffic many people do not have the time to read it!

[I unsubscribed to that group a *long* time ago].
|>
|> >[I would probably have missed this group is it were named as suggested].
|>
|> Have you read the comp.lang.c++ FAQ list?  ...

No - I do not read comp.lang.c++ at all, as it is too busy.

--
swf@elsegundoca.ncr.com  sarima@netcom.com

The peace of God be with you.

swf@ElSegundoCA.NCR.COM (Stan Friesen) writes:

>In article <2802.1272.uupcb@lightspeed.com>, chris.smith@lightspeed.com (Chris Smith) writes:
>|> BRG>|> In article <CvHBx3.AoJ@world.std.com> tob@world.std.com suggests:
>|> BRG>|> [... rename this newgroup to: ]
>|> BRG>|> >comp.std.x3j16-wg21
>|> BRG>|>
>|> Great idea. That should cut down significantly, the off-topic posts.
>
>Except that it will also cut down on *on*topic posts - from new
>people who are interested in the standardization process but do
>not recognize the committee's name.

That's why there would be a pointer to comp.std.x3j16-wg21 in the
comp.lang.c++ FAQ list.

>[I would probably have missed this group is it were named as suggested].

Have you read the comp.lang.c++ FAQ list?  If so, then you would not
have missed the group had it been named as suggested and referred to
in the comp.lang.c++ FAQ list.  If not, then perhaps it would have
been a good thing if you *had* missed this group!

--
Fergus Henderson - fjh@munta.cs.mu.oz.au

In article <2802.1272.uupcb@lightspeed.com>, chris.smith@lightspeed.com (Chris Smith) writes:
|> BRG>|> In article <CvHBx3.AoJ@world.std.com> tob@world.std.com suggests:
|> BRG>|> [... rename this newgroup to: ]
|> BRG>|> >comp.std.x3j16-wg21
|> BRG>|>
|> Great idea. That should cut down significantly, the off-topic posts.

Except that it will also cut down on *on*topic posts - from new
people who are interested in the standardization process but do
not recognize the committee's name.

[I would probably have missed this group is it were named as suggested].

--
swf@elsegundoca.ncr.com  sarima@netcom.com

The peace of God be with you.

BRG>|> In article <CvHBx3.AoJ@world.std.com> tob@world.std.com suggests:
BRG>|> [... rename this newgroup to: ]
BRG>|> >comp.std.x3j16-wg21
BRG>|>
Great idea. That should cut down significantly, the off-topic posts.
If someone makes an off-topic post, we would _know_ it's not because
he thought he was in comp.lang.c++ or comp.lang.c.
---
. OLX 2.2 . What's another word for Thesaurus?