Topic: Permissions need to be removed from the


Author: "'Geoffrey Romer' via ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" <std-proposals@isocpp.org>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2014 13:33:35 -0700
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On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 12:53 PM, Stack Machine <stackmachine@hotmail.com>
wrote:

> Standardization is supposed to provide platform independent facilities to
> achieve a certain task. The permissions in the filesystem TS are a 1:1 copy
> of POSIX permissions and are anything but platform independent. From N3940:
>
> *Windows: All permissions except write are currently ignored. There is
>> only a single write permission; setting write permission for owner, group,
>> or others sets write permission for all, and removing write permission for
>> owner, group, or others removes write permission for all. The Cygwin users
>> guide has extensive discussion of the problems involved. Input from
>> security experts is needed.*
>
>
> (This extremely important hint has been removed in later proposals, why?)
>

Sorry, I'm having trouble following you. The text you object to is, by your
own account, no longer in the working draft. So what's the problem?


> It is completely unacceptable that this particular feature is still in the
> proposal, it should have been removed a long time ago. Permissions can be
> added at a later date, but changing an already standardized interface is
> problematic to say the least.
>

IIUC, the filesystem TS is already out for its final balloting round, so
your options are to start trying to convince the ISO national bodies to
vote "no" on these grounds (good luck with that), or to hope that you're
wrong about how hard it will be to change once it's "standardized".
Fortunately, I think you are: the whole point of the TS's is that they are
easier to change than actual ISO standards. That's what the "experimental"
in std::experimental::filesystem means.


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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_e=
xtra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 12:53 PM, Stack Ma=
chine <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stackmachine@hotmail.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">stackmachine@hotmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Standardization is supposed to provide pl=
atform independent facilities to achieve a certain task. The permissions in=
 the filesystem TS are a 1:1 copy of POSIX permissions and are anything but=
 platform independent. From N3940:<br>
<br><blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;bor=
der-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote"><i><span style=3D"background-color:rgb(224,224,224)">W=
indows: All permissions except=20
write are currently ignored. There is only a single write permission; setti=
ng=20
write permission for owner, group, or others sets write permission for all,=
 and=20
removing write permission for owner, group, or others removes write permiss=
ion=20
for all. The Cygwin users guide has extensive discussion of the problems=20
involved. Input from security experts is needed.</span></i></blockquote><br=
>(This extremely important hint has been removed in later proposals, why?)<=
br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Sorry, I&#39;m having trouble fol=
lowing you. The text you object to is, by your own account, no longer in th=
e working draft. So what&#39;s the problem?</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-l=
eft-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">It is completely unaccep=
table that this particular feature is still in the proposal, it should have=
 been removed a long time ago. Permissions can be added at a later date, bu=
t changing an already standardized interface is problematic to say the leas=
t.=C2=A0</div>
</blockquote><div><br></div><div>IIUC, the filesystem TS is already out for=
 its final balloting round, so your options are to start trying to convince=
 the ISO national bodies to vote &quot;no&quot; on these grounds (good luck=
 with that), or to hope that you&#39;re wrong about how hard it will be to =
change once it&#39;s &quot;standardized&quot;. Fortunately, I think you are=
: the whole point of the TS&#39;s is that they are easier to change than ac=
tual ISO standards. That&#39;s what the &quot;experimental&quot; in std::ex=
perimental::filesystem means.</div>
<div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-lef=
t-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><span class=3D""><font col=
or=3D"#888888"><br>
</font></span></div><span class=3D""><font color=3D"#888888">

<p></p>

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</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

<p></p>

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Author: Tony V E <tvaneerd@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2014 16:51:41 -0400
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On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 4:33 PM, 'Geoffrey Romer' via ISO C++ Standard -
Future Proposals <std-proposals@isocpp.org> wrote:

>
> On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 12:53 PM, Stack Machine <stackmachine@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Standardization is supposed to provide platform independent facilities to
>> achieve a certain task. The permissions in the filesystem TS are a 1:1 copy
>> of POSIX permissions and are anything but platform independent. From N3940:
>>
>> *Windows: All permissions except write are currently ignored. There is
>>> only a single write permission; setting write permission for owner, group,
>>> or others sets write permission for all, and removing write permission for
>>> owner, group, or others removes write permission for all. The Cygwin users
>>> guide has extensive discussion of the problems involved. Input from
>>> security experts is needed.*
>>
>>
>> (This extremely important hint has been removed in later proposals, why?)
>>
>
> Sorry, I'm having trouble following you. The text you object to is, by
> your own account, no longer in the working draft. So what's the problem?
>

IIUC, the problem is that there was a problem with portability of
permissions, and the problem was mentioned in N3940.  Now the _mention_ of
the problem was removed, but the problem still exists.

So either the problem should be fixed, or the feature should be removed,
(or some other solution - possibly including "oh well, it can't be 100%
portable").


>
>
>> It is completely unacceptable that this particular feature is still in
>> the proposal, it should have been removed a long time ago. Permissions can
>> be added at a later date, but changing an already standardized interface is
>> problematic to say the least.
>>
>
> IIUC, the filesystem TS is already out for its final balloting round, so
> your options are to start trying to convince the ISO national bodies to
> vote "no" on these grounds (good luck with that), or to hope that you're
> wrong about how hard it will be to change once it's "standardized".
> Fortunately, I think you are: the whole point of the TS's is that they are
> easier to change than actual ISO standards. That's what the "experimental"
> in std::experimental::filesystem means.
>
>
Let's just say TS doesn't mean "standardized" and "actual ISO standard"
does.  So he is saying, let's fix this (now, during TS) before it is too
late.

Tony

P.S. I don't know the FS TS well enough to have an opinion on the actual
underlying issue.

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote">On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 4:33 PM, &#39;Geoffrey Romer&#39; via ISO C=
++ Standard - Future Proposals <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:std-=
proposals@isocpp.org" target=3D"_blank">std-proposals@isocpp.org</a>&gt;</s=
pan> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra">=
<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=
=3D"">On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 12:53 PM, Stack Machine <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:stackmachine@hotmail.com" target=3D"_blank">stackmachine=
@hotmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Standardization is supposed to provide pl=
atform independent facilities to achieve a certain task. The permissions in=
 the filesystem TS are a 1:1 copy of POSIX permissions and are anything but=
 platform independent. From N3940:<br>

<br><blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;bor=
der-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote"><i><span style=3D"background-color:rgb(224,224,224)">W=
indows: All permissions except=20
write are currently ignored. There is only a single write permission; setti=
ng=20
write permission for owner, group, or others sets write permission for all,=
 and=20
removing write permission for owner, group, or others removes write permiss=
ion=20
for all. The Cygwin users guide has extensive discussion of the problems=20
involved. Input from security experts is needed.</span></i></blockquote><br=
>(This extremely important hint has been removed in later proposals, why?)<=
br></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>Sorry, I&#39;m having troub=
le following you. The text you object to is, by your own account, no longer=
 in the working draft. So what&#39;s the problem?</div>
</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>IIUC, the problem is tha=
t there was a problem with portability of permissions, and the problem was =
mentioned in N3940.=C2=A0 Now the _mention_ of the problem was removed, but=
 the problem still exists.<br>
<br>So either the problem should be fixed, or the feature should be removed=
, (or some other solution - possibly including &quot;oh well, it can&#39;t =
be 100% portable&quot;).<br>=C2=A0<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div=
 class=3D"">
<div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-l=
eft-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">It is completely unaccep=
table that this particular feature is still in the proposal, it should have=
 been removed a long time ago. Permissions can be added at a later date, bu=
t changing an already standardized interface is problematic to say the leas=
t.=C2=A0</div>

</blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>IIUC, the filesystem TS is already o=
ut for its final balloting round, so your options are to start trying to co=
nvince the ISO national bodies to vote &quot;no&quot; on these grounds (goo=
d luck with that), or to hope that you&#39;re wrong about how hard it will =
be to change once it&#39;s &quot;standardized&quot;. Fortunately, I think y=
ou are: the whole point of the TS&#39;s is that they are easier to change t=
han actual ISO standards. That&#39;s what the &quot;experimental&quot; in s=
td::experimental::filesystem means.</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div><br></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Let=
&#39;s just say TS doesn&#39;t mean &quot;standardized&quot; and &quot;actu=
al ISO standard&quot; does.=C2=A0 So he is saying, let&#39;s fix this (now,=
 during TS) before it is too late.<br>
</div></div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Tony<br><br>P.S. I don&#39=
;t know the FS TS well enough to have an opinion on the actual underlying i=
ssue.<br><br></div></div>

<p></p>

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Author: masse.nicolas@gmail.com
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2014 03:53:31 -0700 (PDT)
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An interresting thread about this topic :

https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/std-proposals/N2RIpyiS5-c

There some (including me) went to the same conclusion that permissions as
they are now should be removed from the proposal.

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<div dir=3D"ltr">An interresting thread about this topic :<br><br>https://g=
roups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/std-proposals/N2RIpy=
iS5-c<br><br>There some (including me) went to the same conclusion that per=
missions as they are now should be removed from the proposal.<br></div>

<p></p>

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Author: jwakely.gcc@gmail.com
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 06:22:04 -0700 (PDT)
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On Wednesday, July 30, 2014 8:53:25 PM UTC+1, Stack Machine wrote:
>
>
>
> *Windows: All permissions except write are currently ignored. There is
>> only a single write permission; setting write permission for owner, group,
>> or others sets write permission for all, and removing write permission for
>> owner, group, or others removes write permission for all. The Cygwin users
>> guide has extensive discussion of the problems involved. Input from
>> security experts is needed.*
>
>
> (This extremely important hint has been removed in later proposals, why?)
>

See the very start of the document:

*Gray-shaded italic text is editorial commentary on the draft. It will be
removed from the actual Technical Specification document.*


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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>On Wednesday, July 30, 2014 8:53:25 PM UTC+1, Stack Ma=
chine wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-lef=
t: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
br><br><blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote"><i><span style=3D"=
background-color:#e0e0e0">Windows: All permissions except=20
write are currently ignored. There is only a single write permission; setti=
ng=20
write permission for owner, group, or others sets write permission for all,=
 and=20
removing write permission for owner, group, or others removes write permiss=
ion=20
for all. The Cygwin users guide has extensive discussion of the problems=20
involved. Input from security experts is needed.</span></i></blockquote><br=
>(This extremely important hint has been removed in later proposals, why?)<=
br></div></blockquote><div><br>See the very start of the document:<br><br><=
i style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: =
medium; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; te=
xt-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -=
webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><span style=3D"background-color: rgb(224, 2=
24, 224);">Gray-shaded italic text is editorial commentary on the draft. It=
 will be removed from the actual Technical Specification document.</span></=
i><br>&nbsp;</div></div>

<p></p>

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