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It strikes me that the language relatively desperately needs a function
like try_realloc. This function would work like realloc, except that it
would guarantee to fail if memory can't be reallocated in place.

It seems to me that, even if property like is_relocatable or
is_location_agnostic is introduced, allowing use of realloc with containers
of such types, a function like try_realloc would be remain highly useful
for containers of other types. It would avoid having to deep-copy objects
if memory can be reallocated in place.

On Windows, this is already available like this:

HeapReAlloc(GetProcessHeap(), HEAP_REALLOC_IN_PLACE_ONLY, p, n);

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>It strikes me that the language relatively desperatel=
y needs a function like <font face=3D"courier new,monospace">try_realloc</f=
ont>. This function would work like <font face=3D"courier new,monospace">re=
alloc</font>, except that it would guarantee to fail if memory can&#39;t be=
 reallocated in place.</div><div><br></div><div>It seems to me that, even i=
f=C2=A0property like <font face=3D"courier new,monospace">is_relocatable</f=
ont> or <font face=3D"courier new,monospace">is_location_agnostic</font> is=
 introduced, allowing use of <font face=3D"courier new,monospace">realloc</=
font> with containers of such=C2=A0types,=C2=A0a function like=C2=A0<font f=
ace=3D"courier new,monospace">try_realloc</font> would be remain highly use=
ful for containers of other types. It would avoid having to deep-copy objec=
ts if memory can be reallocated in place.</div><div><br></div><div>On Windo=
ws, this is already available like this:</div><div><br></div><div>HeapReAll=
oc(GetProcessHeap(), HEAP_REALLOC_IN_PLACE_ONLY, p, n);</div><div><br></div=
></div>

<p></p>

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.

On Saturday 01 August 2015 22:23:49 denis bider wrote:
> It strikes me that the language relatively desperately needs a function
> like try_realloc. This function would work like realloc, except that it
> would guarantee to fail if memory can't be reallocated in place.
>
> It seems to me that, even if property like is_relocatable or
> is_location_agnostic is introduced, allowing use of realloc with containers
> of such types, a function like try_realloc would be remain highly useful
> for containers of other types. It would avoid having to deep-copy objects
> if memory can be reallocated in place.
>
> On Windows, this is already available like this:
>
> HeapReAlloc(GetProcessHeap(), HEAP_REALLOC_IN_PLACE_ONLY, p, n);

We need that, but I think WG14 needs to consider it too.
--
Thiago Macieira - thiago (AT) macieira.info - thiago (AT) kde.org
   Software Architect - Intel Open Source Technology Center
      PGP/GPG: 0x6EF45358; fingerprint:
      E067 918B B660 DBD1 105C  966C 33F5 F005 6EF4 5358

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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8


> On 2015=E2=80=9308=E2=80=9302, at 1:23 PM, denis bider <isocppgroup@denis=
bider.com> wrote:
>=20
> It strikes me that the language relatively desperately needs a function l=
ike try_realloc. This function would work like realloc, except that it woul=
d guarantee to fail if memory can't be reallocated in place.
>=20
> It seems to me that, even if property like is_relocatable or is_location_=
agnostic is introduced, allowing use of realloc with containers of such typ=
es, a function like try_realloc would be remain highly useful for container=
s of other types. It would avoid having to deep-copy objects if memory can =
be reallocated in place.
>=20
> On Windows, this is already available like this:
>=20
> HeapReAlloc(GetProcessHeap(), HEAP_REALLOC_IN_PLACE_ONLY, p, n);

It would be nice to have members in std::allocator_traits, called grow_allo=
cation and shrink_allocation. They could simply return false by default, to=
 indicate failure.

I wrote a very fast tokenizer, a while back, using a custom string class wh=
ich reserved maximum space on construction, and shrink to fit when the next=
 token was found. I had to depart from the standard allocator model and rol=
l my own string class. It really should be doable with the standard library=
..

Sooner or later, if nobody else proposes it, I will.

--=20

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html charset=
=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: s=
pace; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><di=
v><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On 2015=E2=80=9308=
=E2=80=9302, at 1:23 PM, denis bider &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:isocppgroup@deni=
sbider.com" class=3D"">isocppgroup@denisbider.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br c=
lass=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=
=3D""><div class=3D"">It strikes me that the language relatively desperatel=
y needs a function like <font face=3D"courier new,monospace" class=3D"">try=
_realloc</font>. This function would work like <font face=3D"courier new,mo=
nospace" class=3D"">realloc</font>, except that it would guarantee to fail =
if memory can't be reallocated in place.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D"=
"></div><div class=3D"">It seems to me that, even if&nbsp;property like <fo=
nt face=3D"courier new,monospace" class=3D"">is_relocatable</font> or <font=
 face=3D"courier new,monospace" class=3D"">is_location_agnostic</font> is i=
ntroduced, allowing use of <font face=3D"courier new,monospace" class=3D"">=
realloc</font> with containers of such&nbsp;types,&nbsp;a function like&nbs=
p;<font face=3D"courier new,monospace" class=3D"">try_realloc</font> would =
be remain highly useful for containers of other types. It would avoid havin=
g to deep-copy objects if memory can be reallocated in place.</div><div cla=
ss=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">On Windows, this is already av=
ailable like this:</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"=
">HeapReAlloc(GetProcessHeap(), HEAP_REALLOC_IN_PLACE_ONLY, p, n);</div></d=
iv></div></blockquote><br class=3D""></div><div>It would be nice to have me=
mbers in <font face=3D"Courier" class=3D"">std::allocator_traits</font>, ca=
lled <font face=3D"Courier" class=3D"">grow_allocation</font> and <font fac=
e=3D"Courier" class=3D"">shrink_allocation</font>. They could simply return=
 <font face=3D"Courier" class=3D"">false</font> by default, to indicate fai=
lure.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I wrote a very fast tokenizer, a =
while back, using a custom string class which reserved maximum space on con=
struction, and shrink to fit when the next token was found. I had to depart=
 from the standard allocator model and roll my own string class. It really =
should be doable with the standard library.</div><div><br class=3D""></div>=
<div>Sooner or later, if nobody else proposes it, I will.</div><div><br cla=
ss=3D""></div></body></html>

<p></p>

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.

On Sat, Aug 01, 2015 at 11:23:32PM -0700, Thiago Macieira wrote:
> On Saturday 01 August 2015 22:23:49 denis bider wrote:
> > It strikes me that the language relatively desperately needs a function
> > like try_realloc. This function would work like realloc, except that it
> > would guarantee to fail if memory can't be reallocated in place.
> >
> > It seems to me that, even if property like is_relocatable or
> > is_location_agnostic is introduced, allowing use of realloc with containers
> > of such types, a function like try_realloc would be remain highly useful
> > for containers of other types. It would avoid having to deep-copy objects
> > if memory can be reallocated in place.
> >
> > On Windows, this is already available like this:
> >
> > HeapReAlloc(GetProcessHeap(), HEAP_REALLOC_IN_PLACE_ONLY, p, n);
>
> We need that, but I think WG14 needs to consider it too.

I agree. Does anybody know why WG14/N1085 didn't move forward or where that
paper ended up?

http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n1085.htm

/MF

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.

On Aug 2, 2015, at 6:28 AM, Magnus Fromreide <magfr@lysator.liu.se> wrote:
>=20
> Does anybody know why WG14/N1085 didn't move forward or where that
> paper ended up?
>=20
> http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n1085.htm
>=20

I did not attend WG14 personally to present this paper.  The feedback I got=
 was that there was insufficient interest to move forward with it.  I.e. no=
 one present was excited enough about it to do the hard work, and even I, t=
he author, wasn=E2=80=99t willing to shell out the vacation time and travel=
 expense to make it happen.

I.e. good ideas are often not enough by themselves.  Someone has to be will=
ing to champion it in person.  It takes time and money (the money for trave=
l, nothing nefarious).

Howard

--=20

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This highlights the whole problem of moving the language forward in face to=
=20
face meetings.

This wastes resources on travel, excludes people who could contribute, and=
=20
silences worthwhile ideas who don't happen to have a champion with=20
disposable time and money.

It further corrupts the process by comingling standardization with=20
socializing, leading to an inner clique who know each other from years of=
=20
face to face meetings, further excluding outsiders.

This is an inefficient process that became unnecessary around the year=20
2000. Yet it continues to persist, most likely because most people who=20
would vote to change it enjoy being paid by their companies to socialize=20
and travel.

This is fairly disgusting and must be ended.

Explore new countries on your own time, people.


On Sunday, August 2, 2015 at 8:56:38 AM UTC-6, Howard Hinnant wrote:

> On Aug 2, 2015, at 6:28 AM, Magnus Fromreide <ma...@lysator.liu.se=20
> <javascript:>> wrote:=20
> >=20
> > Does anybody know why WG14/N1085 didn't move forward or where that=20
> > paper ended up?=20
> >=20
> > http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n1085.htm=20
> >=20
>
> I did not attend WG14 personally to present this paper.  The feedback I=
=20
> got was that there was insufficient interest to move forward with it.  I.=
e.=20
> no one present was excited enough about it to do the hard work, and even =
I,=20
> the author, wasn=E2=80=99t willing to shell out the vacation time and tra=
vel=20
> expense to make it happen.=20
>
> I.e. good ideas are often not enough by themselves.  Someone has to be=20
> willing to champion it in person.  It takes time and money (the money for=
=20
> travel, nothing nefarious).=20
>
> Howard=20
>
>

--=20

---=20
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>This highlights the whole problem of moving the langu=
age forward in face to face meetings.</div><div><br></div><div>This wastes =
resources on travel, excludes people who could contribute, and silences wor=
thwhile ideas who don&#39;t happen to have a champion with disposable time =
and money.</div><div><br></div><div>It=C2=A0further corrupts the process by=
 comingling standardization with socializing, leading to an inner clique wh=
o know each other from years of face to face meetings, further excluding ou=
tsiders.</div><div><br></div><div>This is an inefficient process that becam=
e unnecessary around the year 2000. Yet it continues to persist, most likel=
y because most people who would vote to change it enjoy being paid by their=
 companies to socialize and travel.</div><div><br></div><div>This is fairly=
 disgusting and must be ended.</div><div><br></div><div>Explore new countri=
es on your own time, people.</div><div><br><br>On Sunday, August 2, 2015 at=
 8:56:38 AM UTC-6, Howard Hinnant wrote:</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; border-left-col=
or: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid;">=
On Aug 2, 2015, at 6:28 AM, Magnus Fromreide &lt;<a onmousedown=3D"this.hre=
f=3D&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;javascr=
ipt:&#39;;return true;" href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofol=
low" gdf-obfuscated-mailto=3D"aysn3o5KDwAJ">ma...@lysator.liu.se</a>&gt; wr=
ote:
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; Does anybody know why WG14/N1085 didn&#39;t move forward or where =
that
<br>&gt; paper ended up?
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; <a onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\75h=
ttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.open-std.org%2Fjtc1%2Fsc22%2Fwg14%2Fwww%2Fdocs%2Fn1085.htm\=
46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGC-c-VCt6ULuhjydte7_UA3MsBhg&#39;;return=
 true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2=
F%2Fwww.open-std.org%2Fjtc1%2Fsc22%2Fwg14%2Fwww%2Fdocs%2Fn1085.htm\46sa\75D=
\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGC-c-VCt6ULuhjydte7_UA3MsBhg&#39;;return true;" =
href=3D"http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n1085.htm" target=
=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow">http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/<wbr>sc22/wg14/ww=
w/docs/n1085.htm</a>
<br>&gt;=20
<br>
<br>I did not attend WG14 personally to present this paper. =C2=A0The feedb=
ack I got was that there was insufficient interest to move forward with it.=
 =C2=A0I.e. no one present was excited enough about it to do the hard work,=
 and even I, the author, wasn=E2=80=99t willing to shell out the vacation t=
ime and travel expense to make it happen.
<br>
<br>I.e. good ideas are often not enough by themselves. =C2=A0Someone has t=
o be willing to champion it in person. =C2=A0It takes time and money (the m=
oney for travel, nothing nefarious).
<br>
<br>Howard
<br>
<br></blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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.

On 2 August 2015 at 22:20, denis bider <isocppgroup@denisbider.com> wrote:
> This highlights the whole problem of moving the language forward in face to
> face meetings.
> This wastes resources on travel, excludes people who could contribute, and
> silences worthwhile ideas who don't happen to have a champion with
> disposable time and money.
> It further corrupts the process by comingling standardization with
> socializing, leading to an inner clique who know each other from years of
> face to face meetings, further excluding outsiders.
> This is an inefficient process that became unnecessary around the year 2000.
> Yet it continues to persist, most likely because most people who would vote
> to change it enjoy being paid by their companies to socialize and travel.
> This is fairly disgusting and must be ended.
> Explore new countries on your own time, people.


If you wish us to not take you seriously, by all means continue on
that track. All
the standardization work I do happens on my own time, mostly outside
working hours,
without getting paid for it. I must have missed the memo where somebody died
and made you the authority to tell me what I should or should not do.

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.

On 2 August 2015 at 22:25, Ville Voutilainen
<ville.voutilainen@gmail.com> wrote:
> the standardization work I do happens on my own time, mostly outside
> working hours,
> without getting paid for it. I must have missed the memo where somebody died
> and made you the authority to tell me what I should or should not do.

Oh, pardon me, almost all of it, a mere 90%. The rest of it is
face-to-face meetings,
which my employer sponsors. You're more than welcome to pick up those costs
if you want to have a say on it.

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.

On Aug 2, 2015, at 3:25 PM, Ville Voutilainen <ville.voutilainen@gmail.com>=
 wrote:
>=20
> On 2 August 2015 at 22:20, denis bider <isocppgroup@denisbider.com> wrote=
:
>> This highlights the whole problem of moving the language forward in face=
 to
>> face meetings.
>> This wastes resources on travel, excludes people who could contribute, a=
nd
>> silences worthwhile ideas who don't happen to have a champion with
>> disposable time and money.
>> It further corrupts the process by comingling standardization with
>> socializing, leading to an inner clique who know each other from years o=
f
>> face to face meetings, further excluding outsiders.
>> This is an inefficient process that became unnecessary around the year 2=
000.
>> Yet it continues to persist, most likely because most people who would v=
ote
>> to change it enjoy being paid by their companies to socialize and travel=
..
>> This is fairly disgusting and must be ended.
>> Explore new countries on your own time, people.
>=20
>=20
> If you wish us to not take you seriously, by all means continue on
> that track. All
> the standardization work I do happens on my own time, mostly outside
> working hours,
> without getting paid for it. I must have missed the memo where somebody d=
ied
> and made you the authority to tell me what I should or should not do.

Ditto.  Indeed, Ville and I work together on standards issues (on our own t=
ime as volunteers) despite the fact that we live on opposite sides of the g=
lobe.  Most of the work is done between meetings.

But to be able to get a consensus of experts, there is still nothing better=
 than face to face meetings.  It isn=E2=80=99t a perfect system by any mean=
s.  But it is the best one we have to date, despite our advanced communicat=
ions.

I have personally attended a couple of standards meetings =E2=80=9Cremotely=
=E2=80=9D.  It doesn=E2=80=99t work, despite the best efforts of volunteers=
 on the committee donating their time and equipment to help people attend r=
emotely.

If I implied the meetings were purely social events, then I communicated po=
orly.  The meetings are a key part of the process, and significant effort h=
as been made (and significant money donated by volunteers) to hold those me=
etings around the globe so that no one is always disadvantaged more than an=
yone else because of the length of travel required.

And that reminds me =E2=80=A6  I need help updating this map:

https://www.google.com/maps/@35.723858,-101.096717,4z/data=3D!3m1!4b1!4m2!6=
m1!1sz7MoBTfGFGPs.ksrK1wcwCvwk

:-)

Howard

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I'm only a recent member but socializing was a very, very minor part of the
time there (even though everyone was nice). It was highly interesting but
very intense, work-wise.

We also do remote meetings, conference calls and such, but it's much, much
more productive face to face.

Which makes sense, come to think of it. We give our own (valuable) time
there because we (really) care.

2015-08-02 15:39 GMT-04:00 Howard Hinnant <howard.hinnant@gmail.com>:

> On Aug 2, 2015, at 3:25 PM, Ville Voutilainen <ville.voutilainen@gmail.co=
m>
> wrote:
> >
> > On 2 August 2015 at 22:20, denis bider <isocppgroup@denisbider.com>
> wrote:
> >> This highlights the whole problem of moving the language forward in
> face to
> >> face meetings.
> >> This wastes resources on travel, excludes people who could contribute,
> and
> >> silences worthwhile ideas who don't happen to have a champion with
> >> disposable time and money.
> >> It further corrupts the process by comingling standardization with
> >> socializing, leading to an inner clique who know each other from years
> of
> >> face to face meetings, further excluding outsiders.
> >> This is an inefficient process that became unnecessary around the year
> 2000.
> >> Yet it continues to persist, most likely because most people who would
> vote
> >> to change it enjoy being paid by their companies to socialize and
> travel.
> >> This is fairly disgusting and must be ended.
> >> Explore new countries on your own time, people.
> >
> >
> > If you wish us to not take you seriously, by all means continue on
> > that track. All
> > the standardization work I do happens on my own time, mostly outside
> > working hours,
> > without getting paid for it. I must have missed the memo where somebody
> died
> > and made you the authority to tell me what I should or should not do.
>
> Ditto.  Indeed, Ville and I work together on standards issues (on our own
> time as volunteers) despite the fact that we live on opposite sides of th=
e
> globe.  Most of the work is done between meetings.
>
> But to be able to get a consensus of experts, there is still nothing
> better than face to face meetings.  It isn=E2=80=99t a perfect system by =
any
> means.  But it is the best one we have to date, despite our advanced
> communications.
>
> I have personally attended a couple of standards meetings =E2=80=9Cremote=
ly=E2=80=9D.  It
> doesn=E2=80=99t work, despite the best efforts of volunteers on the commi=
ttee
> donating their time and equipment to help people attend remotely.
>
> If I implied the meetings were purely social events, then I communicated
> poorly.  The meetings are a key part of the process, and significant effo=
rt
> has been made (and significant money donated by volunteers) to hold those
> meetings around the globe so that no one is always disadvantaged more tha=
n
> anyone else because of the length of travel required.
>
> And that reminds me =E2=80=A6  I need help updating this map:
>
>
> https://www.google.com/maps/@35.723858,-101.096717,4z/data=3D!3m1!4b1!4m2=
!6m1!1sz7MoBTfGFGPs.ksrK1wcwCvwk
>
> :-)
>
> Howard
>
> --
>
> ---
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org.
> To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org.
> Visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/group/std-proposals/.
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>I&#39;m only a recent member but socializing was=
 a very, very minor part of the time there (even though everyone was nice).=
 It was highly interesting but very intense, work-wise.<br><br>We also do r=
emote meetings, conference calls and such, but it&#39;s much, much more pro=
ductive face to face.<br><br></div>Which makes sense, come to think of it. =
We give our own (valuable) time there because we (really) care.<br></div></=
div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2015-08-02 15=
:39 GMT-04:00 Howard Hinnant <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:howard=
..hinnant@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">howard.hinnant@gmail.com</a>&gt;</spa=
n>:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-=
left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D"">On Aug 2, 2015, at 3=
:25 PM, Ville Voutilainen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ville.voutilainen@gmail.com=
">ville.voutilainen@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On 2 August 2015 at 22:20, denis bider &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:isocppgro=
up@denisbider.com">isocppgroup@denisbider.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; This highlights the whole problem of moving the language forward i=
n face to<br>
&gt;&gt; face meetings.<br>
&gt;&gt; This wastes resources on travel, excludes people who could contrib=
ute, and<br>
&gt;&gt; silences worthwhile ideas who don&#39;t happen to have a champion =
with<br>
&gt;&gt; disposable time and money.<br>
&gt;&gt; It further corrupts the process by comingling standardization with=
<br>
&gt;&gt; socializing, leading to an inner clique who know each other from y=
ears of<br>
&gt;&gt; face to face meetings, further excluding outsiders.<br>
&gt;&gt; This is an inefficient process that became unnecessary around the =
year 2000.<br>
&gt;&gt; Yet it continues to persist, most likely because most people who w=
ould vote<br>
&gt;&gt; to change it enjoy being paid by their companies to socialize and =
travel.<br>
&gt;&gt; This is fairly disgusting and must be ended.<br>
&gt;&gt; Explore new countries on your own time, people.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; If you wish us to not take you seriously, by all means continue on<br>
&gt; that track. All<br>
&gt; the standardization work I do happens on my own time, mostly outside<b=
r>
&gt; working hours,<br>
&gt; without getting paid for it. I must have missed the memo where somebod=
y died<br>
&gt; and made you the authority to tell me what I should or should not do.<=
br>
<br>
</span>Ditto.=C2=A0 Indeed, Ville and I work together on standards issues (=
on our own time as volunteers) despite the fact that we live on opposite si=
des of the globe.=C2=A0 Most of the work is done between meetings.<br>
<br>
But to be able to get a consensus of experts, there is still nothing better=
 than face to face meetings.=C2=A0 It isn=E2=80=99t a perfect system by any=
 means.=C2=A0 But it is the best one we have to date, despite our advanced =
communications.<br>
<br>
I have personally attended a couple of standards meetings =E2=80=9Cremotely=
=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 It doesn=E2=80=99t work, despite the best efforts of volun=
teers on the committee donating their time and equipment to help people att=
end remotely.<br>
<br>
If I implied the meetings were purely social events, then I communicated po=
orly.=C2=A0 The meetings are a key part of the process, and significant eff=
ort has been made (and significant money donated by volunteers) to hold tho=
se meetings around the globe so that no one is always disadvantaged more th=
an anyone else because of the length of travel required.<br>
<br>
And that reminds me =E2=80=A6=C2=A0 I need help updating this map:<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"https://www.google.com/maps/@35.723858,-101.096717,4z/data=3D!3m=
1!4b1!4m2!6m1!1sz7MoBTfGFGPs.ksrK1wcwCvwk" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_bl=
ank">https://www.google.com/maps/@35.723858,-101.096717,4z/data=3D!3m1!4b1!=
4m2!6m1!1sz7MoBTfGFGPs.ksrK1wcwCvwk</a><br>
<br>
:-)<br>
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
Howard<br>
</font></span><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
--<br>
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om/a/isocpp.org/group/std-proposals/</a>.<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

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--001a1134aee83c2f79051c59e8d4--

.

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 boundary="----=_Part_1186_1591279711.1438559048480"

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Oh, come on guys. Stop the pretense.

The very next WG21 meeting is being held this October at the absurd=20
location of Kona, Hawaii. This is 5000 miles from New York, 7,400 miles=20
from Berlin, and 2400 miles from San Francisco.

Of course, it would be too rushed to arrange this as a fly-in and=20
fly-out 2-3 day event. If that were the case, it might as well be held in=
=20
Bentonville, AR, in a non-descript WalMart office building. To allow *work=
=20
to get done*, it's going to be a leisurely occasion of 5 nights and 6 days.=
=20
This allows for convenient early arrival and late departure, which *I'm=20
sure* no one will use to enjoy a volcano, or a nice leisurely day at the=20
beach. After all, this is for work!

The average fuel economy of long-distance travel is >3L of jet fuel per 100=
=20
miles per passenger seat. With 90 - 100 attendees traveling an average of=
=20
5,000 miles each, return trip, this is going to involve the burning of=20
27,000 L of jet fuel, and the release of 68 metric tons of CO2 into the=20
atmosphere.

Apparently, all of this must happen 2-3 times per year, because otherwise=
=20
it's *impossible* to advance the language.

This is even though the IETF somehow manages to advance internet standards=
=20
without any travel at all, at a rate of 300 RFCs per year.

*> I have personally attended a couple of standards*
*> meetings =E2=80=9Cremotely=E2=80=9D. It doesn=E2=80=99t work,*

*Of course* it doesn't work, when you're a second class participant=20
compared to everyone else.

With meetings held in places like Hawaii, you're spending at least $2,000=
=20
per person per event. The annual cost is $400,000 - $600,000, just in what=
=20
each participant pays.

You could get *absolutely amazing* teleconferencing if you were spending on=
=20
it $500,000 per year. And that's just one group. How many other active=20
groups are there? What kind of teleconferencing could you get for a $2=20
million budget, or more?

But of course, that would make sense if you *wanted* teleconferencing. As=
=20
opposed to a week in Hawaii.


On Sunday, August 2, 2015 at 1:39:49 PM UTC-6, Howard Hinnant wrote:

> On Aug 2, 2015, at 3:25 PM, Ville Voutilainen <ville.vo...@gmail.com=20
> <javascript:>> wrote:=20
> >=20
> > On 2 August 2015 at 22:20, denis bider <isocp...@denisbider.com=20
> <javascript:>> wrote:=20
> >> This highlights the whole problem of moving the language forward in=20
> face to=20
> >> face meetings.=20
> >> This wastes resources on travel, excludes people who could contribute,=
=20
> and=20
> >> silences worthwhile ideas who don't happen to have a champion with=20
> >> disposable time and money.=20
> >> It further corrupts the process by comingling standardization with=20
> >> socializing, leading to an inner clique who know each other from years=
=20
> of=20
> >> face to face meetings, further excluding outsiders.=20
> >> This is an inefficient process that became unnecessary around the year=
=20
> 2000.=20
> >> Yet it continues to persist, most likely because most people who would=
=20
> vote=20
> >> to change it enjoy being paid by their companies to socialize and=20
> travel.=20
> >> This is fairly disgusting and must be ended.=20
> >> Explore new countries on your own time, people.=20
> >=20
> >=20
> > If you wish us to not take you seriously, by all means continue on=20
> > that track. All=20
> > the standardization work I do happens on my own time, mostly outside=20
> > working hours,=20
> > without getting paid for it. I must have missed the memo where somebody=
=20
> died=20
> > and made you the authority to tell me what I should or should not do.=
=20
>
> Ditto.  Indeed, Ville and I work together on standards issues (on our own=
=20
> time as volunteers) despite the fact that we live on opposite sides of th=
e=20
> globe.  Most of the work is done between meetings.=20
>
> But to be able to get a consensus of experts, there is still nothing=20
> better than face to face meetings.  It isn=E2=80=99t a perfect system by =
any means.=20
>  But it is the best one we have to date, despite our advanced=20
> communications.=20
>
> I have personally attended a couple of standards meetings =E2=80=9Cremote=
ly=E2=80=9D.  It=20
> doesn=E2=80=99t work, despite the best efforts of volunteers on the commi=
ttee=20
> donating their time and equipment to help people attend remotely.=20
>
> If I implied the meetings were purely social events, then I communicated=
=20
> poorly.  The meetings are a key part of the process, and significant effo=
rt=20
> has been made (and significant money donated by volunteers) to hold those=
=20
> meetings around the globe so that no one is always disadvantaged more tha=
n=20
> anyone else because of the length of travel required.=20
>
> And that reminds me =E2=80=A6  I need help updating this map:=20
>
>
> https://www.google.com/maps/@35.723858,-101.096717,4z/data=3D!3m1!4b1!4m2=
!6m1!1sz7MoBTfGFGPs.ksrK1wcwCvwk=20
>
> :-)=20
>
> Howard=20
>
>

--=20

---=20
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ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
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------=_Part_1186_1591279711.1438559048480
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Oh, come on guys. Stop the pretense.</div><div><br></=
div><div>The very next=C2=A0WG21 meeting is being held this October=C2=A0at=
 the absurd location of Kona, Hawaii. This is 5000 miles from New York, 7,4=
00 miles from Berlin, and 2400 miles from San Francisco.</div><div><br></di=
v><div>Of course, it would be too rushed to arrange this as a=C2=A0fly-in a=
nd fly-out=C2=A02-3 day event.=C2=A0If that were the case, it might as well=
 be held in Bentonville, AR, in a non-descript WalMart office building.=C2=
=A0To allow <em>work to get done</em>, it&#39;s=C2=A0going to be a leisurel=
y occasion of=C2=A05 nights and 6 days. This allows for convenient early ar=
rival and late departure, which=C2=A0<em>I&#39;m sure</em> no one will=C2=
=A0use=C2=A0to enjoy a volcano, or a nice leisurely day at the beach. After=
 all, this is for work!</div><div><div><br></div><div>The average fuel econ=
omy of long-distance travel is &gt;3L of jet fuel per 100 miles per passeng=
er seat. With 90 - 100 attendees traveling an average of 5,000 miles each, =
return trip, this is going to involve the burning of 27,000 L=C2=A0of jet f=
uel, and the release of 68 metric tons of CO2 into the atmosphere.</div><di=
v><br></div><div>Apparently, all of this must happen 2-3 times per year, be=
cause otherwise it&#39;s <em>impossible</em> to advance=C2=A0the=C2=A0langu=
age.</div><div><br></div><div>This is even though=C2=A0the IETF somehow man=
ages to advance internet standards without any travel at all, at a rate of =
300 RFCs per year.</div><div><br></div><div><em>&gt; I have personally atte=
nded a couple of standards</em></div><div><em>&gt; meetings =E2=80=9Cremote=
ly=E2=80=9D. It doesn=E2=80=99t work,</em></div><div><br></div><div><em>Of =
course</em> it doesn&#39;t work, when you&#39;re a second class participant=
 compared to everyone else.</div><div><br></div><div>With meetings held in =
places like Hawaii, you&#39;re spending at least $2,000 per person per even=
t. The annual cost is=C2=A0$400,000 - $600,000, just in what each participa=
nt pays.</div><div><br></div><div>You=C2=A0could get=C2=A0<em>absolutely am=
azing</em> teleconferencing if=C2=A0you were spending on it=C2=A0$500,000 p=
er year. And that&#39;s just one group. How many other active groups are th=
ere? What kind of teleconferencing could you get for a $2 million budget, o=
r more?</div><div><br></div><div>But of course, that=C2=A0would make sense=
=C2=A0if you=C2=A0<em>wanted</em> teleconferencing.=C2=A0As opposed to=C2=
=A0a week in=C2=A0Hawaii.</div><br><br>On Sunday, August 2, 2015 at 1:39:49=
 PM UTC-6, Howard Hinnant wrote:</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; border-left-color: rgb(=
204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid;">On Aug 2=
, 2015, at 3:25 PM, Ville Voutilainen &lt;<a onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#3=
9;javascript:&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;javascript:&#3=
9;;return true;" href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" gd=
f-obfuscated-mailto=3D"7aNXzAJaDwAJ">ville.vo...@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; On 2 August 2015 at 22:20, denis bider &lt;<a onmousedown=3D"this.=
href=3D&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;java=
script:&#39;;return true;" href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"no=
follow" gdf-obfuscated-mailto=3D"7aNXzAJaDwAJ">isocp...@denisbider.com</a>&=
gt; wrote:
<br>&gt;&gt; This highlights the whole problem of moving the language forwa=
rd in face to
<br>&gt;&gt; face meetings.
<br>&gt;&gt; This wastes resources on travel, excludes people who could con=
tribute, and
<br>&gt;&gt; silences worthwhile ideas who don&#39;t happen to have a champ=
ion with
<br>&gt;&gt; disposable time and money.
<br>&gt;&gt; It further corrupts the process by comingling standardization =
with
<br>&gt;&gt; socializing, leading to an inner clique who know each other fr=
om years of
<br>&gt;&gt; face to face meetings, further excluding outsiders.
<br>&gt;&gt; This is an inefficient process that became unnecessary around =
the year 2000.
<br>&gt;&gt; Yet it continues to persist, most likely because most people w=
ho would vote
<br>&gt;&gt; to change it enjoy being paid by their companies to socialize =
and travel.
<br>&gt;&gt; This is fairly disgusting and must be ended.
<br>&gt;&gt; Explore new countries on your own time, people.
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; If you wish us to not take you seriously, by all means continue on
<br>&gt; that track. All
<br>&gt; the standardization work I do happens on my own time, mostly outsi=
de
<br>&gt; working hours,
<br>&gt; without getting paid for it. I must have missed the memo where som=
ebody died
<br>&gt; and made you the authority to tell me what I should or should not =
do.
<br>
<br>Ditto. =C2=A0Indeed, Ville and I work together on standards issues (on =
our own time as volunteers) despite the fact that we live on opposite sides=
 of the globe. =C2=A0Most of the work is done between meetings.
<br>
<br>But to be able to get a consensus of experts, there is still nothing be=
tter than face to face meetings. =C2=A0It isn=E2=80=99t a perfect system by=
 any means. =C2=A0But it is the best one we have to date, despite our advan=
ced communications.
<br>
<br>I have personally attended a couple of standards meetings =E2=80=9Cremo=
tely=E2=80=9D. =C2=A0It doesn=E2=80=99t work, despite the best efforts of v=
olunteers on the committee donating their time and equipment to help people=
 attend remotely.
<br>
<br>If I implied the meetings were purely social events, then I communicate=
d poorly. =C2=A0The meetings are a key part of the process, and significant=
 effort has been made (and significant money donated by volunteers) to hold=
 those meetings around the globe so that no one is always disadvantaged mor=
e than anyone else because of the length of travel required.
<br>
<br>And that reminds me =E2=80=A6 =C2=A0I need help updating this map:
<br>
<br><a onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://www.google.com/maps/@35.7238=
58,-101.096717,4z/data\75!3m1!4b1!4m2!6m1!1sz7MoBTfGFGPs.ksrK1wcwCvwk&#39;;=
return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://www.google.com/maps/@35.7=
23858,-101.096717,4z/data\75!3m1!4b1!4m2!6m1!1sz7MoBTfGFGPs.ksrK1wcwCvwk&#3=
9;;return true;" href=3D"https://www.google.com/maps/@35.723858,-101.096717=
,4z/data=3D!3m1!4b1!4m2!6m1!1sz7MoBTfGFGPs.ksrK1wcwCvwk" target=3D"_blank" =
rel=3D"nofollow">https://www.google.com/maps/@<wbr>35.723858,-101.096717,4z=
/data=3D<wbr>!3m1!4b1!4m2!6m1!<wbr>1sz7MoBTfGFGPs.ksrK1wcwCvwk</a>
<br>
<br>:-)
<br>
<br>Howard
<br>
<br></blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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------=_Part_1186_1591279711.1438559048480--
------=_Part_1185_1469562918.1438559048479--

.

On Sun, Aug 02, 2015 at 04:44:08PM -0700, denis bider wrote:
>
> This is even though the IETF somehow manages to advance internet standards
> without any travel at all, at a rate of 300 RFCs per year.

Please see https://www.ietf.org/meetings

/MF

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On 3 August 2015 at 02:44, denis bider <isocppgroup@denisbider.com> wrote:
> Oh, come on guys. Stop the pretense.

Oh, thanks. It's nice that you know what's pretense and what's not. If
you wanted
to ensure me you don't know what you're talking about, you accomplished that
goal splendidly.

> The very next WG21 meeting is being held this October at the absurd location
> of Kona, Hawaii. This is 5000 miles from New York, 7,400 miles from Berlin,
> and 2400 miles from San Francisco.

Yes, it's there because there's a host willing to organize a
face-to-face meeting
there.

> Of course, it would be too rushed to arrange this as a fly-in and fly-out
> 2-3 day event. If that were the case, it might as well be held in
> Bentonville, AR, in a non-descript WalMart office building. To allow work to
> get done, it's going to be a leisurely occasion of 5 nights and 6 days. This

Yes, it's very leisurely indeed to begin working at 8am every morning and work
until 5pm, every day.

> Apparently, all of this must happen 2-3 times per year, because otherwise
> it's impossible to advance the language.

We're not saying it's impossible to advance the language otherwise. However,
we do know that it's more efficient to have 2-3 face-to-face meetings annually
than work remotely, because we'll get everybody in the same venue in the
same time zone.

> But of course, that would make sense if you wanted teleconferencing. As
> opposed to a week in Hawaii.

If you're so concerned about "second-class citizens", feel free to tell me which
of us get to attend those teleconferences in the middle of the night.
See, there's
that minor issue, time zones.

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El 2/8/2015 21:11, "Ville Voutilainen" <ville.voutilainen@gmail.com>
escribi=C3=B3:
>
> On 3 August 2015 at 02:44, denis bider <isocppgroup@denisbider.com> wrote=
:
> > Oh, come on guys. Stop the pretense.
>
> Oh, thanks. It's nice that you know what's pretense and what's not. If
> you wanted
> to ensure me you don't know what you're talking about, you accomplished
that
> goal splendidly.
>
> > The very next WG21 meeting is being held this October at the absurd
location
> > of Kona, Hawaii. This is 5000 miles from New York, 7,400 miles from
Berlin,
> > and 2400 miles from San Francisco.
>
> Yes, it's there because there's a host willing to organize a
> face-to-face meeting
> there.
>
> > Of course, it would be too rushed to arrange this as a fly-in and
fly-out
> > 2-3 day event. If that were the case, it might as well be held in
> > Bentonville, AR, in a non-descript WalMart office building. To allow
work to
> > get done, it's going to be a leisurely occasion of 5 nights and 6 days.
This
>
> Yes, it's very leisurely indeed to begin working at 8am every morning and
work
> until 5pm, every day.

I only attended one meeting in 2003 and two in 2014. I can't remember a
single day finishing that early. Most finished 19hs, sometimes 20hs...and
one day 23hs! Yes, from the morning.
One of them was my first time in Switzerland, I had time to visit nothing.

>
> > Apparently, all of this must happen 2-3 times per year, because
otherwise
> > it's impossible to advance the language.
>
> We're not saying it's impossible to advance the language otherwise.
However,
> we do know that it's more efficient to have 2-3 face-to-face meetings
annually
> than work remotely, because we'll get everybody in the same venue in the
> same time zone.
>
> > But of course, that would make sense if you wanted teleconferencing. As
> > opposed to a week in Hawaii.
>
> If you're so concerned about "second-class citizens", feel free to tell
me which
> of us get to attend those teleconferences in the middle of the night.
> See, there's
> that minor issue, time zones.
>
> --
>
> ---
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
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<p dir=3D"ltr"><br>
El 2/8/2015 21:11, &quot;Ville Voutilainen&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:vill=
e.voutilainen@gmail.com">ville.voutilainen@gmail.com</a>&gt; escribi=C3=B3:=
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On 3 August 2015 at 02:44, denis bider &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:isocppgro=
up@denisbider.com">isocppgroup@denisbider.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; Oh, come on guys. Stop the pretense.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Oh, thanks. It&#39;s nice that you know what&#39;s pretense and what&#=
39;s not. If<br>
&gt; you wanted<br>
&gt; to ensure me you don&#39;t know what you&#39;re talking about, you acc=
omplished that<br>
&gt; goal splendidly.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; The very next WG21 meeting is being held this October at the absu=
rd location<br>
&gt; &gt; of Kona, Hawaii. This is 5000 miles from New York, 7,400 miles fr=
om Berlin,<br>
&gt; &gt; and 2400 miles from San Francisco.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Yes, it&#39;s there because there&#39;s a host willing to organize a<b=
r>
&gt; face-to-face meeting<br>
&gt; there.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Of course, it would be too rushed to arrange this as a fly-in and=
 fly-out<br>
&gt; &gt; 2-3 day event. If that were the case, it might as well be held in=
<br>
&gt; &gt; Bentonville, AR, in a non-descript WalMart office building. To al=
low work to<br>
&gt; &gt; get done, it&#39;s going to be a leisurely occasion of 5 nights a=
nd 6 days. This<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Yes, it&#39;s very leisurely indeed to begin working at 8am every morn=
ing and work<br>
&gt; until 5pm, every day.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">I only attended one meeting in 2003 and two in 2014. I can&#=
39;t remember a single day finishing that early. Most finished 19hs, someti=
mes 20hs...and one day 23hs! Yes, from the morning.<br>
One of them was my first time in Switzerland, I had time to visit nothing.<=
br></p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Apparently, all of this must happen 2-3 times per year, because o=
therwise<br>
&gt; &gt; it&#39;s impossible to advance the language.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; We&#39;re not saying it&#39;s impossible to advance the language other=
wise. However,<br>
&gt; we do know that it&#39;s more efficient to have 2-3 face-to-face meeti=
ngs annually<br>
&gt; than work remotely, because we&#39;ll get everybody in the same venue =
in the<br>
&gt; same time zone.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; But of course, that would make sense if you wanted teleconferenci=
ng. As<br>
&gt; &gt; opposed to a week in Hawaii.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; If you&#39;re so concerned about &quot;second-class citizens&quot;, fe=
el free to tell me which<br>
&gt; of us get to attend those teleconferences in the middle of the night.<=
br>
&gt; See, there&#39;s<br>
&gt; that minor issue, time zones.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; --<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; ---<br>
&gt; You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro=
ups &quot;ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals&quot; group.<br>
&gt; To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send=
 an email to <a href=3D"mailto:std-proposals%2Bunsubscribe@isocpp.org">std-=
proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org</a>.<br>
&gt; To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:std-proposals@i=
socpp.org">std-proposals@isocpp.org</a>.<br>
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roup/std-proposals/">http://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/group/std-propos=
als/</a>.<br>
</p>

<p></p>

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--047d7b3a9c124a6d24051c5d10b9--

.

On 3 August 2015 at 03:15, dgutson . <danielgutson@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Yes, it's very leisurely indeed to begin working at 8am every morning and
>> work
>> until 5pm, every day.
> I only attended one meeting in 2003 and two in 2014. I can't remember a
> single day finishing that early. Most finished 19hs, sometimes 20hs...and
> one day 23hs! Yes, from the morning.
> One of them was my first time in Switzerland, I had time to visit nothing.


Well, since we have such leisurely time in our meetings, we shouldn't mention
that we sometimes do have evening working sessions that a very large
portion of us attend.

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.

On 3 August 2015 at 03:08, Magnus Fromreide <magfr@lysator.liu.se> wrote:
>> This is even though the IETF somehow manages to advance internet standards
>> without any travel at all, at a rate of 300 RFCs per year.
> Please see https://www.ietf.org/meetings

Oh, snap. This mythical IETF that doesn't travel has 3 face-to-face
meetings every
year, with a wider range of travel than WG21 does, without exception.
Not 2-3, 3.
And they have 1000+ attendees in every one of them. Imagine the wonders of the
teleconferencing system they could buy with the money they use for traveling.

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--001a11c36592d1362b051c5d5788
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In Lenexa, I got to see a bit of Kansas on my way back to the airport.
People were nice, but what I know I learned from people I talked to (nice
people, that being said).

I would prefer going to Finland in Feb. 2016 but my schedule won't allow
it. I.m a cold weather person. I would have liked to bring my wife to Kona
(I'll work all the time but she could not, too much work on her side). I
don't expect to see much of it.

It drives my kids crazy. They don't get that it's non-paid work, so we
actually mean business as free time is out of our own wallets. I'm part of
academia; wallets are thin to the point where actually going there to work
is a fight very time. We actually go there to work, not visit.

Please, by all means, instead of presuming, come by and contribute!

2015-08-02 20:19 GMT-04:00 Ville Voutilainen <ville.voutilainen@gmail.com>:

> On 3 August 2015 at 03:08, Magnus Fromreide <magfr@lysator.liu.se> wrote:
> >> This is even though the IETF somehow manages to advance internet
> standards
> >> without any travel at all, at a rate of 300 RFCs per year.
> > Please see https://www.ietf.org/meetings
>
> Oh, snap. This mythical IETF that doesn't travel has 3 face-to-face
> meetings every
> year, with a wider range of travel than WG21 does, without exception.
> Not 2-3, 3.
> And they have 1000+ attendees in every one of them. Imagine the wonders of
> the
> teleconferencing system they could buy with the money they use for
> traveling.
>
> --
>
> ---
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
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>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div>In Lenexa, I got to see a bit of Kansas on =
my way back to the airport. People were nice, but what I know I learned fro=
m people I talked to (nice people, that being said).<br><br></div>I would p=
refer going to Finland in Feb. 2016 but my schedule won&#39;t allow it. I.m=
 a cold weather person. I would have liked to bring my wife to Kona (I&#39;=
ll work all the time but she could not, too much work on her side). I don&#=
39;t expect to see much of it.<br><br></div>It drives my kids crazy. They d=
on&#39;t get that it&#39;s non-paid work, so we actually mean business as f=
ree time is out of our own wallets. I&#39;m part of academia; wallets are t=
hin to the point where actually going there to work is a fight very time. W=
e actually go there to work, not visit.<br><br></div>Please, by all means, =
instead of presuming, come by and contribute!<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_=
extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2015-08-02 20:19 GMT-04:00 Ville Vout=
ilainen <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ville.voutilainen@gmail.com=
" target=3D"_blank">ville.voutilainen@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span>:<br><blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s=
olid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D"">On 3 August 2015 at 03:08, Magnus F=
romreide &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:magfr@lysator.liu.se">magfr@lysator.liu.se</=
a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; This is even though the IETF somehow manages to advance internet s=
tandards<br>
&gt;&gt; without any travel at all, at a rate of 300 RFCs per year.<br>
&gt; Please see <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/meetings" rel=3D"noreferrer=
" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/meetings</a><br>
<br>
</span>Oh, snap. This mythical IETF that doesn&#39;t travel has 3 face-to-f=
ace<br>
meetings every<br>
year, with a wider range of travel than WG21 does, without exception.<br>
Not 2-3, 3.<br>
And they have 1000+ attendees in every one of them. Imagine the wonders of =
the<br>
teleconferencing system they could buy with the money they use for travelin=
g.<br>
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

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.

On Aug 2, 2015, at 7:44 PM, denis bider <isocppgroup@denisbider.com> wrote:
>=20
> Oh, come on guys. Stop the pretense.
>=20
> The very next WG21 meeting is being held this October at the absurd locat=
ion of Kona, Hawaii. This is 5000 miles from New York, 7,400 miles from Ber=
lin, and 2400 miles from San Francisco.
>=20

We are always looking for volunteers to host one of our meetings.  We go wh=
erever they are willing to host.  I=E2=80=99m not in authority to accept, b=
ut if you offer to host a meeting, I=E2=80=99m fairly certain we will come =
to you.

We need one meeting room large enough to hold 100 people, and 3 to 4 more a=
ble to hold about 20.  We need a projector for each room.  We need this fro=
m a Monday through a Saturday.  It is customary for the host to provide cof=
fee breaks (perhaps with some snacks) twice a day.  Sometimes a host will a=
lso provide a dinner one night.  We=E2=80=99ve been very fortunate with the=
 generousness of our past hosts, including Plum Hall, our host in Kona (whe=
re the company presides).  I am personally very grateful to each and every =
host.

Here is a partial list of those generous hosts:

https://isocpp.org/std/meetings-and-participation/upcoming-meetings

Please coordinate your offer to host through our Convener:

http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/contacts

His list of our requirements may differ from mine, and you should believe h=
is.  He has coordinated many of these meetings, and I none.

Howard

--=20

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--001a113ffdbcc61551051c5da5d2
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On 2 August 2015 at 19:43, Howard Hinnant <howard.hinnant@gmail.com> wrote:

> We need one meeting room large enough to hold 100 people, and 3 to 4 more
> able to hold about 20.  We need a projector for each room.  We need this
> from a Monday through a Saturday.  It is customary for the host to provide
> coffee breaks (perhaps with some snacks) twice a day.


Don't forget free wifi for the attendees as well, as the meetings depend
upon it.  That, combined with what Howard mentioned above, is the minimum
you are required to cover when you sponsor.

That is just the monetary side.  You also have to do the logistics of
making sure it goes smoothly.


So, can we put you down for sponsoring and coordinating a meeting in a
nondescript Walmart building in Bentonville, AR in 2017?  We can sure use
more sponsors!

> --
>
 Nevin ":-)" Liber  <mailto:nevin@eviloverlord.com>  (847) 691-1404

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<div dir=3D"ltr">On 2 August 2015 at 19:43, Howard Hinnant <span dir=3D"ltr=
">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:howard.hinnant@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">howard.=
hinnant@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0=
 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">We need one meeting ro=
om large enough to hold 100 people, and 3 to 4 more able to hold about 20.=
=C2=A0 We need a projector for each room.=C2=A0 We need this from a Monday =
through a Saturday.=C2=A0 It is customary for the host to provide coffee br=
eaks (perhaps with some snacks) twice a day.=C2=A0</blockquote><div><br></d=
iv><div>Don&#39;t forget free wifi for the attendees as well, as the meetin=
gs depend upon it.=C2=A0 That, combined with what Howard mentioned above, i=
s the minimum you are required to cover when you sponsor.</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>That is just the monetary side.=C2=A0 You also have to do the logis=
tics of making sure it goes smoothly.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><d=
iv>So, can we put you down for sponsoring and coordinating a meeting in a n=
ondescript Walmart building in Bentonville, AR in 2017?=C2=A0 We can sure u=
se more sponsors!</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">--=C2=A0<br></blockqu=
ote></div><div class=3D"gmail_signature">=C2=A0Nevin &quot;:-)&quot; Liber=
=C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:nevin@eviloverlord.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">nevin@eviloverlord.com</a>&gt;=C2=A0 (847) 691-1404</div>
</div></div>

<p></p>

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--001a113ffdbcc61551051c5da5d2--

.

On Aug 2, 2015, at 8:56 PM, Nevin Liber <nevin@eviloverlord.com> wrote:
>=20
> On 2 August 2015 at 19:43, Howard Hinnant <howard.hinnant@gmail.com> wrot=
e:
>> We need one meeting room large enough to hold 100 people, and 3 to 4 mor=
e able to hold about 20.  We need a projector for each room.  We need this =
from a Monday through a Saturday.  It is customary for the host to provide =
coffee breaks (perhaps with some snacks) twice a day.=20
>>=20
> Don't forget free wifi for the attendees as well, as the meetings depend =
upon it.  That, combined with what Howard mentioned above, is the minimum y=
ou are required to cover when you sponsor.
>=20
> That is just the monetary side.  You also have to do the logistics of mak=
ing sure it goes smoothly.
>=20
>=20
> So, can we put you down for sponsoring and coordinating a meeting in a no=
ndescript Walmart building in Bentonville, AR in 2017?  We can sure use mor=
e sponsors!

Trust Nevin far more than me on this matter.

http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2013/n3577.pdf

That was a great meeting Nevin, and thanks again! :-)

Howard

--=20

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.

On Aug 2, 2015, at 9:24 PM, Howard Hinnant <howard.hinnant@gmail.com> wrote=
:
>=20
> On Aug 2, 2015, at 8:56 PM, Nevin Liber <nevin@eviloverlord.com> wrote:
>>=20
>> On 2 August 2015 at 19:43, Howard Hinnant <howard.hinnant@gmail.com> wro=
te:
>>> We need one meeting room large enough to hold 100 people, and 3 to 4 mo=
re able to hold about 20.  We need a projector for each room.  We need this=
 from a Monday through a Saturday.  It is customary for the host to provide=
 coffee breaks (perhaps with some snacks) twice a day.=20
>>>=20
>> Don't forget free wifi for the attendees as well, as the meetings depend=
 upon it.  That, combined with what Howard mentioned above, is the minimum =
you are required to cover when you sponsor.
>>=20
>> That is just the monetary side.  You also have to do the logistics of ma=
king sure it goes smoothly.
>>=20
>>=20
>> So, can we put you down for sponsoring and coordinating a meeting in a n=
ondescript Walmart building in Bentonville, AR in 2017?  We can sure use mo=
re sponsors!
>=20
> Trust Nevin far more than me on this matter.
>=20
> http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2013/n3577.pdf
>=20
> That was a great meeting Nevin, and thanks again! :-)

PS:  Nevin=E2=80=99s travel expenses for this meeting were minuscule, right=
 Nevin? ;-)

Howard

--=20

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>
> We can sure use more sponsors!
>

Is there an option for small individual contributions? I'd happily
contribute but the $1k bronze membership for the Standard C++ Foundation is
a bit much.

On Sun, Aug 2, 2015 at 7:56 PM, Nevin Liber <nevin@eviloverlord.com> wrote:

> On 2 August 2015 at 19:43, Howard Hinnant <howard.hinnant@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> We need one meeting room large enough to hold 100 people, and 3 to 4 more
>> able to hold about 20.  We need a projector for each room.  We need this
>> from a Monday through a Saturday.  It is customary for the host to provide
>> coffee breaks (perhaps with some snacks) twice a day.
>
>
> Don't forget free wifi for the attendees as well, as the meetings depend
> upon it.  That, combined with what Howard mentioned above, is the minimum
> you are required to cover when you sponsor.
>
> That is just the monetary side.  You also have to do the logistics of
> making sure it goes smoothly.
>
>
> So, can we put you down for sponsoring and coordinating a meeting in a
> nondescript Walmart building in Bentonville, AR in 2017?  We can sure use
> more sponsors!
>
>> --
>>
>  Nevin ":-)" Liber  <mailto:nevin@eviloverlord.com>  (847) 691-1404
>
> --
>
> ---
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org.
> To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org.
> Visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/group/std-proposals/.
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-l=
eft-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">We can sure use more sponsors!<br></block=
quote><div><br></div><div>Is there an option for small individual contribut=
ions? I&#39;d happily contribute but the $1k bronze membership for the Stan=
dard C++ Foundation is a bit much.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><b=
r><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Aug 2, 2015 at 7:56 PM, Nevin Liber <s=
pan dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nevin@eviloverlord.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">nevin@eviloverlord.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-l=
eft:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><span class=3D"">On 2 August 2015 at 19:43, Howar=
d Hinnant <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:howard.hinnant@gmail.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">howard.hinnant@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br></span=
><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><span class=3D""><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #=
ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">We need one meeting room large enough to hold 1=
00 people, and 3 to 4 more able to hold about 20.=C2=A0 We need a projector=
 for each room.=C2=A0 We need this from a Monday through a Saturday.=C2=A0 =
It is customary for the host to provide coffee breaks (perhaps with some sn=
acks) twice a day.=C2=A0</blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>Don&#39;t f=
orget free wifi for the attendees as well, as the meetings depend upon it.=
=C2=A0 That, combined with what Howard mentioned above, is the minimum you =
are required to cover when you sponsor.</div><div><br></div><div>That is ju=
st the monetary side.=C2=A0 You also have to do the logistics of making sur=
e it goes smoothly.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>So, can we put =
you down for sponsoring and coordinating a meeting in a nondescript Walmart=
 building in Bentonville, AR in 2017?=C2=A0 We can sure use more sponsors!<=
/div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-le=
ft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">--=C2=A0<br></blockquote></div><div>=C2=
=A0Nevin &quot;:-)&quot; Liber=C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:nevin@evi=
loverlord.com" target=3D"_blank">nevin@eviloverlord.com</a>&gt;=C2=A0 <a hr=
ef=3D"tel:%28847%29%20691-1404" value=3D"+18476911404" target=3D"_blank">(8=
47) 691-1404</a></div>
</div></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">

<p></p>

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</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

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--001a1141aebc7b0b0d051c5e5c85--

.

On Aug 2, 2015, at 9:48 PM, Brent Friedman <fourthgeek@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> Is there an option for small individual contributions? I'd happily contri=
bute but the $1k bronze membership for the Standard C++ Foundation is a bit=
 much.

That=E2=80=99s a really good question, and I suspect it does not have an eq=
ually good answer.  My best guess (I honestly do not know) is that there is=
 not an infrastructure set up to accept a relatively massive amount of rela=
tively small donations.

[Deity!] We (meaning me) should do something about this.

https://ripple.com

I=E2=80=99m not completely joking.  But this isn=E2=80=99t something that i=
s going to happen tomorrow.  You may have to wait until the day after tomor=
row=E2=80=A6  It=E2=80=99s all about being able to move money around at an =
order of magnitude (or two) lower cost.

Howard

--=20

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On 2 August 2015 at 20:32, Howard Hinnant <howard.hinnant@gmail.com> wrote:

> PS:  Nevin=E2=80=99s travel expenses for this meeting were minuscule, rig=
ht Nevin?
> ;-)
>

Only relative to everyone else...

The Metra (commuter) rail schedule on Sunday is pretty bad, so I had to
drive down and part my car at the hotel for the duration.  Downtown hotel
rates for parking are like room costs in other parts of the country.  Had I
really thought about it, I would have just taken a limo or taxi...

Anyway, glad I (and by extension, the company I work for, DRW) were able to
do it!
 Nevin :-)
--=20
 Nevin ":-)" Liber  <mailto:nevin@eviloverlord.com>  (847) 691-1404

--=20

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<div dir=3D"ltr">On 2 August 2015 at 20:32, Howard Hinnant <span dir=3D"ltr=
">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:howard.hinnant@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">howard.=
hinnant@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0=
 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">PS:=C2=A0 Nevin=E2=80=
=99s travel expenses for this meeting were minuscule, right Nevin? ;-)<br><=
/blockquote><div><br></div><div>Only relative to everyone else...</div><div=
><br></div><div>The Metra (commuter) rail schedule on Sunday is pretty bad,=
 so I had to drive down and part my car at the hotel for the duration.=C2=
=A0 Downtown hotel rates for parking are like room costs in other parts of =
the country.=C2=A0 Had I really thought about it, I would have just taken a=
 limo or taxi...</div><div><br></div><div>Anyway, glad I (and by extension,=
 the company I work for, DRW) were able to do it!</div><div>=C2=A0Nevin :-)=
</div></div>-- <br><div class=3D"gmail_signature">=C2=A0Nevin &quot;:-)&quo=
t; Liber=C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:nevin@eviloverlord.com" target=
=3D"_blank">nevin@eviloverlord.com</a>&gt;=C2=A0 (847) 691-1404</div>
</div></div>

<p></p>

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--001a11376c9e4187c2051c5f726e--

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--089e0122eba2fee5a2051c5f8998
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On 2 August 2015 at 19:11, Ville Voutilainen <ville.voutilainen@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On 3 August 2015 at 02:44, denis bider <isocppgroup@denisbider.com> wrote:
> > Oh, come on guys. Stop the pretense.
>
> Oh, thanks. It's nice that you know what's pretense and what's not. If
> you wanted
> to ensure me you don't know what you're talking about, you accomplished
> that
> goal splendidly.
>

Apparently he has immortalized his position in a blog post: <
http://denisbider.blogspot.com/2015/08/ossification-and-hawaii-current-state.html
>.
--
 Nevin ":-)" Liber  <mailto:nevin@eviloverlord.com>  (847) 691-1404

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<div dir=3D"ltr">On 2 August 2015 at 19:11, Ville Voutilainen <span dir=3D"=
ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ville.voutilainen@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">v=
ille.voutilainen@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><div class=3D"gmail_ext=
ra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=
=3D"">On 3 August 2015 at 02:44, denis bider &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:isocppgr=
oup@denisbider.com">isocppgroup@denisbider.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; Oh, come on guys. Stop the pretense.<br>
<br>
</span>Oh, thanks. It&#39;s nice that you know what&#39;s pretense and what=
&#39;s not. If<br>
you wanted<br>
to ensure me you don&#39;t know what you&#39;re talking about, you accompli=
shed that<br>
goal splendidly.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Apparently he has immo=
rtalized his position in a blog post: &lt;<a href=3D"http://denisbider.blog=
spot.com/2015/08/ossification-and-hawaii-current-state.html">http://denisbi=
der.blogspot.com/2015/08/ossification-and-hawaii-current-state.html</a>&gt;=
..</div><div>--=C2=A0<br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_signature">=C2=A0Ne=
vin &quot;:-)&quot; Liber=C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:nevin@evilover=
lord.com" target=3D"_blank">nevin@eviloverlord.com</a>&gt;=C2=A0 (847) 691-=
1404</div>
</div></div>

<p></p>

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--089e0122eba2fee5a2051c5f8998--

.

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The IETF does have meetings. However, they are in no way required to=20
contribute to RFCs, or get them published.

Nicol Bolas posted a thoughtful comment on my blog. I think I owe it to the=
=20
group to respond to the following part here:


*Nicol:* *Fifth, you show a profound disrespect for the work the ISO C++=20
committee members actually do by claiming that they're basically taking a=
=20
week of vacation*

That is true. It's true completely, and I apologize to those I have=20
offended. It is unfair for me to judge, without having attended the=20
meetings, at all.

I do believe the language is much better off with this type of=20
guardianship, than no type of guardianship at all =E2=80=94 or many other t=
ypes=20
that would be inferior. The work being done is highly valuable. I benefit=
=20
from it; millions of other developers do; the entire world does, in our use=
=20
of the resulting software and services. The working group is at the center=
=20
of these invaluable efforts.

So yes; it is unfair that I poke fun at your meeting at the Royal Kona. ;)=
=20
This is better than many other ways of doing things.

However, I believe that there is room for great improvement. I'm convinced=
=20
that an online system of collaboration would allow both for greater=20
participation, and for a more comprehensive addressing of the needs of=20
users. Especially minor improvements and tweaks.

An agile online collaboration system would facilitate small-scale=20
improvement much better than a waterfall meet-for-a-week system. Possibly,=
=20
the two could even be combined. If those of you who are the most dedicated=
=20
to the standardization process prefer to meet for a week, that's okay; that=
=20
is your prerogative. But the mechanisms for taking small proposals into=20
account must also be improved.

I would like to call attention again that it costs on the order of USD=20
200,000, in the participants' own costs alone, to hold just *one* ISO group=
=20
meeting.

I understand that ISO may currently be lacking the infrastructure to hold=
=20
these meetings equally effectively online. However, *a single ISO working=
=20
group* =E2=80=94 and there are many =E2=80=94 burns through USD 500,000 of =
participants=20
money alone *per year*.

Do you not think that an amazing online collaboration system could be=20
developed; to serve the needs of one or all of ISO working groups; for a=20
*fraction* of the cost currently spent on travel?

Consider all the effort being spent on the standardization. Not just the=20
expense of travel; but the work of valuable and talented individuals, whose=
=20
time is worth $50, $100, $200 per hour.

All of this effort is being spent, and what does the group use for=20
coordination?

We're using 1980s, 1990s era technology! Right now, we're communicating=20
through... Google Groups! A most basic, free online service!

Nothing we're doing here; nothing in the way we communicate; could not have=
=20
been done on Usenet, or on a Bulletin Board System in the 1980s.

There is an Eastern European proverb saying that "The blacksmith's horse=20
has no horseshoes."=20

I believe pretty strongly that this is the case here; and that all of us=20
technologists could do much better.


On Sunday, August 2, 2015 at 6:19:44 PM UTC-6, Ville Voutilainen wrote:

> On 3 August 2015 at 03:08, Magnus Fromreide <ma...@lysator.liu.se=20
> <javascript:>> wrote:=20
> >> This is even though the IETF somehow manages to advance internet=20
> standards=20
> >> without any travel at all, at a rate of 300 RFCs per year.=20
> > Please see https://www.ietf.org/meetings=20
>
> Oh, snap. This mythical IETF that doesn't travel has 3 face-to-face=20
> meetings every=20
> year, with a wider range of travel than WG21 does, without exception.=20
> Not 2-3, 3.=20
> And they have 1000+ attendees in every one of them. Imagine the wonders o=
f=20
> the=20
> teleconferencing system they could buy with the money they use for=20
> traveling.=20
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>The IETF does have meetings.=C2=A0However, they are i=
n no way required to contribute to RFCs, or get them published.</div><div><=
br></div><div>Nicol Bolas posted a thoughtful comment on my blog.=C2=A0I th=
ink I owe it to the group to respond to the following=C2=A0part here:</div>=
<div><br></div><div><br></div><div><strong>Nicol:</strong> <i>Fifth, you sh=
ow a profound disrespect for the work the ISO C++ committee members actuall=
y do by claiming that they&#39;re basically taking a week of vacation</i></=
div><div><br></div><div>That is true. It&#39;s true completely,=C2=A0and=C2=
=A0I=C2=A0apologize to those I have offended.=C2=A0It is unfair for me to=
=C2=A0judge, without=C2=A0having attended the meetings, at all.</div><div><=
br></div><div>I do believe the language is much better off with this type o=
f guardianship, than no type of guardianship at all =E2=80=94 or many other=
 types that would be inferior. The work being done is highly valuable. I be=
nefit from it; millions of other developers do; the entire world does, in o=
ur use of the resulting software and services. The working group is at the =
center of these invaluable efforts.</div><div><br></div><div>So yes; it is =
unfair that I poke fun at your meeting at the Royal Kona. ;) This is better=
 than many other ways of doing things.</div><div><br></div><div>However, I =
believe that there is room for great improvement. I&#39;m convinced that=C2=
=A0an online system of collaboration would allow both for greater participa=
tion, and for a more comprehensive addressing of the needs of users. Especi=
ally minor improvements and tweaks.</div><div><br></div><div>An agile onlin=
e collaboration system would facilitate small-scale improvement much better=
 than a waterfall meet-for-a-week system. Possibly, the two could even be c=
ombined. If those of you who are the most dedicated to the standardization =
process prefer to meet for a week, that&#39;s okay; that is your prerogativ=
e. But the mechanisms for taking small proposals into account must also be =
improved.</div><div><br></div><div>I would like to call attention again tha=
t it costs on the order of USD 200,000, in the participants&#39; own costs =
alone, to hold just <b>one</b> ISO group meeting.<br><br>I understand that =
ISO may currently be lacking the infrastructure to hold these meetings equa=
lly effectively online. However, <i>a single ISO working group</i> =E2=80=
=94 and there are many =E2=80=94 burns through USD 500,000 of participants =
money alone <i>per year</i>.</div><div><br></div><div>Do you not think that=
 an amazing online collaboration system could be developed; to serve the ne=
eds of one or all of ISO working groups; for a <i>fraction</i> of the cost =
currently spent on travel?<br></div><div><br></div><div>Consider all the ef=
fort being spent on the standardization. Not just the expense of travel; bu=
t the work of valuable and talented individuals, whose time is worth $50, $=
100, $200 per hour.</div><div><br></div><div>All of this effort is being sp=
ent, and what does the group use for coordination?</div><div><br></div><div=
>We&#39;re using 1980s, 1990s era technology! Right now, we&#39;re communic=
ating through... Google Groups! A most basic, free online service!</div><di=
v><br></div><div>Nothing we&#39;re doing here; nothing in the way we commun=
icate;=C2=A0could not have been done on Usenet, or on a=C2=A0Bulletin Board=
 System=C2=A0in the 1980s.</div><div><br></div><div>There is an Eastern Eur=
opean proverb saying that &quot;The blacksmith&#39;s horse has no horseshoe=
s.&quot;=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>I believe pretty strongly that this=
 is the case here; and that all of us technologists could do much better.</=
div><div><br><br>On Sunday, August 2, 2015 at 6:19:44 PM UTC-6, Ville Vouti=
lainen wrote:</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); bor=
der-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid;">On 3 August 2015 at 03:08, =
Magnus Fromreide &lt;<a onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;javascript:&#39;;re=
turn true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;" href=
=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" gdf-obfuscated-mailto=
=3D"OUVqSklpDwAJ">ma...@lysator.liu.se</a>&gt; wrote:
<br>&gt;&gt; This is even though the IETF somehow manages to advance intern=
et standards
<br>&gt;&gt; without any travel at all, at a rate of 300 RFCs per year.
<br>&gt; Please see <a onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://www.google.c=
om/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmeetings\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg=
\75AFQjCNErgmHSK7w3DclPs4zaxZbP-Hgf4g&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D"this.hr=
ef=3D&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmeeti=
ngs\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNErgmHSK7w3DclPs4zaxZbP-Hgf4g&#39;;re=
turn true;" href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/meetings" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D=
"nofollow">https://www.ietf.org/meetings</a>
<br>
<br>Oh, snap. This mythical IETF that doesn&#39;t travel has 3 face-to-face
<br>meetings every
<br>year, with a wider range of travel than WG21 does, without exception.
<br>Not 2-3, 3.
<br>And they have 1000+ attendees in every one of them. Imagine the wonders=
 of the
<br>teleconferencing system they could buy with the money they use for trav=
eling.
<br></blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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> On 2015=E2=80=9308=E2=80=9304, at 9:44 AM, isocppgroup@denisbider.com wro=
te:
>=20
> Nicol: Fifth, you show a profound disrespect for the work the ISO C++ com=
mittee members actually do by claiming that they're basically taking a week=
 of vacation
>=20
> That is true. It's true completely, and I apologize to those I have offen=
ded. It is unfair for me to judge, without having attended the meetings, at=
 all.

You apologize here, but you doubled down and rebutted him solidly on your b=
log. The word =E2=80=9Capologize=E2=80=9D was inserted for the benefit of t=
his list.

Anyway, teleconferencing has always been part of the WG21 process as well, =
and the role of telepresence is constantly renegotiated under the pressures=
 of scheduling and openness. (I=E2=80=99m not an old timer, this is simply =
apparent from the published records.) Teleconferences are in many ways less=
 open than face-to-face meetings.

Logistics and bureaucratic protocols aren=E2=80=99t resolved by flamewars, =
so let=E2=80=99s end this now.

--=20

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ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html charset=
=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: s=
pace; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><di=
v><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On 2015=E2=80=9308=
=E2=80=9304, at 9:44 AM, <a href=3D"mailto:isocppgroup@denisbider.com" clas=
s=3D"">isocppgroup@denisbider.com</a> wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interc=
hange-newline"><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"">=
<strong class=3D"">Nicol:</strong> <i class=3D"">Fifth, you show a profound=
 disrespect for the work the ISO C++ committee members actually do by claim=
ing that they're basically taking a week of vacation</i></div><div class=3D=
""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">That is true. It's true completely,=
&nbsp;and&nbsp;I&nbsp;apologize to those I have offended.&nbsp;It is unfair=
 for me to&nbsp;judge, without&nbsp;having attended the meetings, at all.</=
div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>You apologize h=
ere, but you doubled down and rebutted him solidly on your blog. The word =
=E2=80=9Capologize=E2=80=9D was inserted for the benefit of this list.</div=
><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Anyway, teleconferencing has always been pa=
rt of the WG21 process as well, and the role of telepresence is constantly =
renegotiated under the pressures of scheduling and openness. (I=E2=80=99m n=
ot an old timer, this is simply apparent from the published records.) Telec=
onferences are in many ways less open than face-to-face meetings.</div><div=
><br class=3D""></div><div>Logistics and bureaucratic protocols aren=E2=80=
=99t resolved by flamewars, so let=E2=80=99s end this now.</div><div><br cl=
ass=3D""></div></div></body></html>

<p></p>

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I don't think the two responses - on the blog and here - express=20
substantially different, or incompatible, positions. Yes, I formed the=20
response I sent to this list specifically for this list. There's more need=
=20
to apologize here because the position I expressed here was an earlier=20
and harsher version of what ended up on my blog.

At this time, I do not see much benefit from my continued participation in=
=20
this group. The standards body does not appear to be in a position where it=
=20
can meaningfully accept and integrate input from language users, in any way=
=20
other than strictly informal.

There is no system for registering such feedback. There is no system to=20
integrate it. There is no system to measure it. There is no system to act=
=20
on it.

There appears to be little sense of accountability to language users; of=20
the need to shepherd ideas that no one is passionate about on their own.=20
There's little concern that something of value is being lost, when=20
worthwhile ideas don't make it to meetings.

There seems to be little understanding that every idea is valuable. That=20
ideas must be collected, registered, reconciled in some way. That ideas are=
=20
opportunities, and are valuable for their own, not just when someone=20
champions them.

You are the 1% of 1%; a few hundred out of millions of language users. And=
=20
yet, the ideas you focus on; the ideas you standardize; well, ... they are=
=20
mostly your own. The ideas of the few.

You're not taking advantage of the millions...


> Logistics and bureaucratic protocols aren=E2=80=99t resolved by flamewars

To be clear: I'm not saying the current system is too bureaucratic. I'm=20
saying it's *not enough*. It relies too much on individual passion, and not=
=20
enough on objective accounting.


On Monday, August 3, 2015 at 8:45:37 PM UTC-6, David Krauss wrote:

>
> On 2015=E2=80=9308=E2=80=9304, at 9:44 AM, isocp...@denisbider.com <javas=
cript:> wrote:
>
> *Nicol:* *Fifth, you show a profound disrespect for the work the ISO C++=
=20
> committee members actually do by claiming that they're basically taking a=
=20
> week of vacation*
>
> That is true. It's true completely, and I apologize to those I have=20
> offended. It is unfair for me to judge, without having attended the=20
> meetings, at all.
>
>
> You apologize here, but you doubled down and rebutted him solidly on your=
=20
> blog. The word =E2=80=9Capologize=E2=80=9D was inserted for the benefit o=
f this list.
>
> Anyway, teleconferencing has always been part of the WG21 process as well=
,=20
> and the role of telepresence is constantly renegotiated under the pressur=
es=20
> of scheduling and openness. (I=E2=80=99m not an old timer, this is simply=
 apparent=20
> from the published records.) Teleconferences are in many ways less open=
=20
> than face-to-face meetings.
>
> Logistics and bureaucratic protocols aren=E2=80=99t resolved by flamewars=
, so=20
> let=E2=80=99s end this now.
>
>

--=20

---=20
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ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org.
To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org.
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>I don&#39;t think the two responses - on the blog and=
 here - express substantially different, or incompatible, positions. Yes, I=
 formed the response=C2=A0I sent to this list=C2=A0specifically for this li=
st. There&#39;s more need to apologize here because the position I expresse=
d here was=C2=A0an earlier and=C2=A0harsher version of=C2=A0what ended up o=
n my blog.</div><div><br></div><div>At this time, I do not see=C2=A0much be=
nefit from my continued participation in this group. The standards body doe=
s not appear to be in a position where it can meaningfully accept and integ=
rate input from language users, in any way other than strictly informal.</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>There is no system for registering such feedback. Th=
ere is no system to integrate it. There is no system to measure it.=C2=A0Th=
ere is no system to act on it.</div><div><br></div><div>There appears to be=
 little sense of accountability to language users; of the need to shepherd =
ideas that no one is passionate about on their own. There&#39;s=C2=A0little=
 concern that something of value is being lost, when worthwhile ideas don&#=
39;t make it to meetings.</div><div><br></div><div>There seems to be little=
 understanding that every idea is valuable. That ideas must be collected, r=
egistered, reconciled=C2=A0in some way. That ideas are opportunities, and a=
re valuable for their own, not just when someone champions them.</div><div>=
<br></div><div>You are the 1% of 1%;=C2=A0a few hundred out of millions of =
language users. And yet, the ideas you focus on; the ideas you standardize;=
=C2=A0well, ... they are mostly=C2=A0your own.=C2=A0The ideas of the few.</=
div><div><br></div><div>You&#39;re not taking advantage of the millions...<=
/div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>&gt; Logistics and bureaucratic pro=
tocols aren=E2=80=99t resolved by flamewars</div><div><br></div><div>To be =
clear: I&#39;m not saying the current system is too bureaucratic. I&#39;m s=
aying it&#39;s <em>not enough</em>.=C2=A0It relies too much on individual p=
assion, and not enough on objective accounting.</div><div><br><br>On Monday=
, August 3, 2015 at 8:45:37 PM UTC-6, David Krauss wrote:</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex=
; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1px; border-lef=
t-style: solid;"><div style=3D"-ms-word-wrap: break-word;"><br><div><blockq=
uote type=3D"cite"><div>On 2015=E2=80=9308=E2=80=9304, at 9:44 AM, <a onmou=
sedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D"this.h=
ref=3D&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;" href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_b=
lank" rel=3D"nofollow" gdf-obfuscated-mailto=3D"7hYzAtS_DwAJ">isocp...@deni=
sbider.com</a> wrote:</div><br><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><strong>Nicol:</s=
trong> <i>Fifth, you show a profound disrespect for the work the ISO C++ co=
mmittee members actually do by claiming that they&#39;re basically taking a=
 week of vacation</i></div><div><br></div><div>That is true. It&#39;s true =
completely,=C2=A0and=C2=A0I=C2=A0apologize to those I have offended.=C2=A0I=
t is unfair for me to=C2=A0judge, without=C2=A0having attended the meetings=
, at all.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>You apologize h=
ere, but you doubled down and rebutted him solidly on your blog. The word =
=E2=80=9Capologize=E2=80=9D was inserted for the benefit of this list.</div=
><div><br></div><div>Anyway, teleconferencing has always been part of the W=
G21 process as well, and the role of telepresence is constantly renegotiate=
d under the pressures of scheduling and openness. (I=E2=80=99m not an old t=
imer, this is simply apparent from the published records.) Teleconferences =
are in many ways less open than face-to-face meetings.</div><div><br></div>=
<div>Logistics and bureaucratic protocols aren=E2=80=99t resolved by flamew=
ars, so let=E2=80=99s end this now.</div><div><br></div></div></div></block=
quote></div>

<p></p>

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On 4 August 2015 at 08:33,  <isocppgroup@denisbider.com> wrote:
> At this time, I do not see much benefit from my continued participation in
> this group. The standards body does not appear to be in a position where it
> can meaningfully accept and integrate input from language users, in any way
> other than strictly informal.
> There is no system for registering such feedback. There is no system to
> integrate it. There is no system to measure it. There is no system to act on
> it.

Just in case some innocent observer reads these assertions of yours and thinks
they are correct, they are not. You never bothered to make any effort to find
out how to register such feedback.

> There appears to be little sense of accountability to language users; of the
> need to shepherd ideas that no one is passionate about on their own. There's
> little concern that something of value is being lost, when worthwhile ideas
> don't make it to meetings.
> There seems to be little understanding that every idea is valuable. That
> ideas must be collected, registered, reconciled in some way. That ideas are
> opportunities, and are valuable for their own, not just when someone
> champions them.

Do tell us how an idea would get adopted if nobody does any work to champion
it.

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> Just in case some innocent observer reads these assertions of yours
> and thinks they are correct, they are not. You never bothered to make
> any effort to find out how to register such feedback.

I've done exactly what this page suggests:

https://isocpp.org/std/submit-a-proposal

I came here, and I've discussed some proposals. I've abandoned some based
on feedback, while I still believe in others.

I could go on and continue and write formal proposals, as the above page
outlines.

The problem is that, based on what I have learned here, this would be a
futile exercise.

If something as simple N1085, dated as far back as 2004, never makes it
into the language, even after 11 years; simply because Howard didn't go to
the right meeting... well then. What chance does a proposal of mine
possibly have?

You're putting up a checklist and a form, but if no one is shepherding
other people's proposals, this is an empty gesture.

You can't expect people to fly to a meeting, for every proposal they have.


On Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 12:01:54 AM UTC-6, Ville Voutilainen wrote:

> On 4 August 2015 at 08:33,  <isocp...@denisbider.com <javascript:>>
> wrote:
> > At this time, I do not see much benefit from my continued participation
> in
> > this group. The standards body does not appear to be in a position where
> it
> > can meaningfully accept and integrate input from language users, in any
> way
> > other than strictly informal.
> > There is no system for registering such feedback. There is no system to
> > integrate it. There is no system to measure it. There is no system to
> act on
> > it.
>
> Just in case some innocent observer reads these assertions of yours and
> thinks
> they are correct, they are not. You never bothered to make any effort to
> find
> out how to register such feedback.
>
> > There appears to be little sense of accountability to language users; of
> the
> > need to shepherd ideas that no one is passionate about on their own.
> There's
> > little concern that something of value is being lost, when worthwhile
> ideas
> > don't make it to meetings.
> > There seems to be little understanding that every idea is valuable. That
> > ideas must be collected, registered, reconciled in some way. That ideas
> are
> > opportunities, and are valuable for their own, not just when someone
> > champions them.
>
> Do tell us how an idea would get adopted if nobody does any work to
> champion
> it.
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>&gt; Just in case some innocent observer reads these =
assertions of yours<br>&gt; and thinks=C2=A0they are correct, they are not.=
 You never bothered to make</div><div>&gt; any effort to find=C2=A0out how =
to register such feedback. <br></div><div><br></div><div>I&#39;ve done=C2=
=A0exactly what this page suggests:</div><div><br></div><div><a href=3D"htt=
ps://isocpp.org/std/submit-a-proposal">https://isocpp.org/std/submit-a-prop=
osal</a></div><div><br></div><div>I came here, and I&#39;ve discussed some =
proposals.=C2=A0I&#39;ve abandoned some based on feedback, while I still be=
lieve=C2=A0in others.</div><div><br></div><div>I could go on and continue a=
nd write formal proposals, as the above page outlines.</div><div><br></div>=
<div>The problem is that, based on what I have learned here, this would be =
a futile exercise.</div><div><br></div><div>If something as simple N1085, d=
ated as far back as 2004, never makes it into the language, even after 11 y=
ears;=C2=A0simply because Howard didn&#39;t go to the right meeting... well=
 then. What chance does a proposal of mine possibly have?</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>You&#39;re putting up a checklist and a form, but if no one is shep=
herding other people&#39;s proposals, this is an empty gesture.</div><div><=
br></div><div>You can&#39;t expect people to fly to a meeting, for every pr=
oposal they have.</div><div><br><br>On Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 12:01:54 =
AM UTC-6, Ville Voutilainen wrote:</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; border-left-color: rg=
b(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid;">On 4 A=
ugust 2015 at 08:33, =C2=A0&lt;<a onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;javascrip=
t:&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;javascript:&#39;;return t=
rue;" href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" gdf-obfuscate=
d-mailto=3D"aHoH-InKDwAJ">isocp...@denisbider.com</a>&gt; wrote:
<br>&gt; At this time, I do not see much benefit from my continued particip=
ation in
<br>&gt; this group. The standards body does not appear to be in a position=
 where it
<br>&gt; can meaningfully accept and integrate input from language users, i=
n any way
<br>&gt; other than strictly informal.
<br>&gt; There is no system for registering such feedback. There is no syst=
em to
<br>&gt; integrate it. There is no system to measure it. There is no system=
 to act on
<br>&gt; it.
<br>
<br>Just in case some innocent observer reads these assertions of yours and=
 thinks
<br>they are correct, they are not. You never bothered to make any effort t=
o find
<br>out how to register such feedback.
<br>
<br>&gt; There appears to be little sense of accountability to language use=
rs; of the
<br>&gt; need to shepherd ideas that no one is passionate about on their ow=
n. There&#39;s
<br>&gt; little concern that something of value is being lost, when worthwh=
ile ideas
<br>&gt; don&#39;t make it to meetings.
<br>&gt; There seems to be little understanding that every idea is valuable=
.. That
<br>&gt; ideas must be collected, registered, reconciled in some way. That =
ideas are
<br>&gt; opportunities, and are valuable for their own, not just when someo=
ne
<br>&gt; champions them.
<br>
<br>Do tell us how an idea would get adopted if nobody does any work to cha=
mpion
<br>it.
<br></blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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.

On 4 August 2015 at 09:56,  <isocppgroup@denisbider.com> wrote:
> I could go on and continue and write formal proposals, as the above page
> outlines.
> The problem is that, based on what I have learned here, this would be a
> futile exercise.

What makes it futile is mostly that people don't agree on what you're proposing.
There's very little any process can do about that.

> If something as simple N1085, dated as far back as 2004, never makes it into
> the language, even after 11 years; simply because Howard didn't go to the
> right meeting... well then. What chance does a proposal of mine possibly
> have?

N1085 is a WG14 proposal. Howard didn't fly into that meeting because
it was a C committee meeting, not a C++ committee meeting.

> You're putting up a checklist and a form, but if no one is shepherding other
> people's proposals, this is an empty gesture.
> You can't expect people to fly to a meeting, for every proposal they have.


I expect people to find an attending champion for their proposals if they can't
attend themselves. Many people have done that, successfully.

--

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> N1085 is a WG14 proposal. Howard didn't fly into that meeting
> because it was a C committee meeting, not a C++ committee
> meeting.

Both are ISO groups. Are you honestly saying that, in WG21, it would have
worked differently?


> What makes it futile is mostly that people don't agree on what
> you're proposing. There's very little any process can do about that.

There's legitimate interest in a relocatable property, to allow objects to
be moved via realloc/memcpy.

The people who don't agree are those who lack have the flexibility to see
that an object is a concept, not a piece of data. That by copying bytes,
the object-concept can move in memory. This works with the language as-is;
with a variety of compilers and platforms; in practice.

It is not clear that this proposal is not viable. If it is truly not
viable, then I have worse things to say about you and your group than I
already have.

If you truly cannot adjust to the idea that an object-concept can be moved
in memory, then God have mercy on your soul. That's all I can say.


> I expect people to find an attending champion for their proposals
> if they can't attend themselves. Many people have done that,
> successfully.

Yes. It's exactly what I said. The whole thing is based on personal
passions. If someone isn't pursuing something, it's dead.

There's no sense of duty to keep track of ideas, and reconcile them, even
if they aren't your own.


On Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 1:22:05 AM UTC-6, Ville Voutilainen wrote:

> On 4 August 2015 at 09:56,  <isocp...@denisbider.com <javascript:>>
> wrote:
> > I could go on and continue and write formal proposals, as the above page
> > outlines.
> > The problem is that, based on what I have learned here, this would be a
> > futile exercise.
>
> What makes it futile is mostly that people don't agree on what you're
> proposing.
> There's very little any process can do about that.
>
> > If something as simple N1085, dated as far back as 2004, never makes it
> into
> > the language, even after 11 years; simply because Howard didn't go to
> the
> > right meeting... well then. What chance does a proposal of mine possibly
> > have?
>
> N1085 is a WG14 proposal. Howard didn't fly into that meeting because
> it was a C committee meeting, not a C++ committee meeting.
>
> > You're putting up a checklist and a form, but if no one is shepherding
> other
> > people's proposals, this is an empty gesture.
> > You can't expect people to fly to a meeting, for every proposal they
> have.
>
>
> I expect people to find an attending champion for their proposals if they
> can't
> attend themselves. Many people have done that, successfully.
>

--

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>&gt; N1085 is a WG14 proposal. Howard didn&#39;t fly =
into that meeting</div><div>&gt; because it was a C committee meeting, not =
a C++ committee</div><div>&gt; meeting. </div><div><br></div><div>Both are =
ISO groups. Are you honestly saying that, in WG21, it would have worked dif=
ferently?</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>&gt; What makes it futile=
 is mostly that people don&#39;t agree on what</div><div>&gt; you&#39;re pr=
oposing. There&#39;s very little any process can do about that. </div><div>=
<br></div><div>There&#39;s legitimate interest in a relocatable property, t=
o allow objects to be moved via realloc/memcpy.</div><div><br></div><div>Th=
e people who don&#39;t agree are those who=C2=A0lack have the flexibility t=
o see that an object is a concept, not a piece of data. That by copying byt=
es, the object-concept can move in memory. This works with the language as-=
is; with a variety of compilers and platforms; in practice.</div><div><br><=
/div><div>It is not clear that this proposal is not viable. If it is truly =
not viable, then I have worse things to say about you and your group than I=
 already have.</div><div><br></div><div>If you truly cannot adjust to the i=
dea that an object-concept can be moved in memory, then God have mercy on y=
our soul. That&#39;s all I can say.<br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div>=
<div>&gt; I expect people to find an attending champion for their proposals=
</div><div>&gt; if they can&#39;t=C2=A0attend themselves. Many people have =
done that,</div><div>&gt; successfully. <br></div><div><br></div><div>Yes. =
It&#39;s exactly what I said. The whole thing is based on personal passions=
.. If someone isn&#39;t pursuing something, it&#39;s dead.</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>There&#39;s no sense of duty to keep track of ideas, and reconcile =
them, even if they aren&#39;t your own.</div><div><br><br>On Tuesday, Augus=
t 4, 2015 at 1:22:05 AM UTC-6, Ville Voutilainen wrote:</div><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1px; border-left-=
style: solid;">On 4 August 2015 at 09:56, =C2=A0&lt;<a onmousedown=3D"this.=
href=3D&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;java=
script:&#39;;return true;" href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"no=
follow" gdf-obfuscated-mailto=3D"gOFd9unODwAJ">isocp...@denisbider.com</a>&=
gt; wrote:
<br>&gt; I could go on and continue and write formal proposals, as the abov=
e page
<br>&gt; outlines.
<br>&gt; The problem is that, based on what I have learned here, this would=
 be a
<br>&gt; futile exercise.
<br>
<br>What makes it futile is mostly that people don&#39;t agree on what you&=
#39;re proposing.
<br>There&#39;s very little any process can do about that.
<br>
<br>&gt; If something as simple N1085, dated as far back as 2004, never mak=
es it into
<br>&gt; the language, even after 11 years; simply because Howard didn&#39;=
t go to the
<br>&gt; right meeting... well then. What chance does a proposal of mine po=
ssibly
<br>&gt; have?
<br>
<br>N1085 is a WG14 proposal. Howard didn&#39;t fly into that meeting becau=
se
<br>it was a C committee meeting, not a C++ committee meeting.
<br>
<br>&gt; You&#39;re putting up a checklist and a form, but if no one is she=
pherding other
<br>&gt; people&#39;s proposals, this is an empty gesture.
<br>&gt; You can&#39;t expect people to fly to a meeting, for every proposa=
l they have.
<br>
<br>
<br>I expect people to find an attending champion for their proposals if th=
ey can&#39;t
<br>attend themselves. Many people have done that, successfully.
<br></blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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.

On 4 August 2015 at 11:05,  <isocppgroup@denisbider.com> wrote:
>> N1085 is a WG14 proposal. Howard didn't fly into that meeting
>> because it was a C committee meeting, not a C++ committee
>> meeting.
> Both are ISO groups. Are you honestly saying that, in WG21, it would have
> worked differently?

Howard has the ability to attend WG21 meetings, so in a sense, yes. He could've
solicited an attending champion for the WG14 meeting. He happened to have
higher-priority things to do. That does not logically constitute proof that the
process is somehow broken, regardless of whether you've decided that it is
just because your ideas aren't immediately agreed on by the people on
this forum (a forum which, I remind again, is not an official
discussion forum of the
standards committee - most people here are committee outsiders. The reason
why it's suggested to float proposals here is that this forum provides feedback
from technically able people.).

>> What makes it futile is mostly that people don't agree on what
>> you're proposing. There's very little any process can do about that.
>
> There's legitimate interest in a relocatable property, to allow objects to
> be moved via realloc/memcpy.
>
> The people who don't agree are those who lack have the flexibility to see
> that an object is a concept, not a piece of data. That by copying bytes, the
> object-concept can move in memory. This works with the language as-is; with
> a variety of compilers and platforms; in practice.

You have failed to answer how the lifetime of the moved-from object is handled.
I said that its lifetime ends; you claimed it doesn't. That's complete nonsense,
because the C++ memory model doesn't have such virtual memory, and an
object is a region of storage, not something you have privately envisioned
it to be.

> It is not clear that this proposal is not viable. If it is truly not viable,
> then I have worse things to say about you and your group than I already
> have.

We'll see what happens when Pablo follows up. With regards to things
you have to say, I don't think I could care less.

> If you truly cannot adjust to the idea that an object-concept can be moved
> in memory, then God have mercy on your soul. That's all I can say.

I fail to see what souls have to do with a technical discussion. If you want
a proposal to be adopted, answer the feedback questions and keep
your colorful remarks to yourself. If it's this hard for you to
discuss a proposal
or an idea, it's perhaps indeed better that you don't bother us with your
ideas. We have plenty of people who are mature enough to understand
that they do need to provide answers to the technical questions
asked about their proposals.

>> I expect people to find an attending champion for their proposals
>> if they can't attend themselves. Many people have done that,
>> successfully.
> Yes. It's exactly what I said. The whole thing is based on personal
> passions. If someone isn't pursuing something, it's dead.

And you expect that your ideas are automatically pursued by other
people who have more
urgent work to do?

> There's no sense of duty to keep track of ideas, and reconcile them, even if
> they aren't your own.

Nonsense. We have issue lists for exactly that purpose, and
hard-working volunteers
who keep them up to date and follow open issues actively. Again, you haven't got
the slightest idea of what you're talking about.

--

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Going back to the original subject I would like to see an investigation
into how often such a realloc_in_place would actually be possible. Usually
mallocs try to pack blocks end to end so the chance that you can get more
memory without
moving the data is probably slim. Reducing the size of course works but
could leave the heap in a much more fragmented state.

On the meta-discussion I find it very hard to find what has been suggested
before and even more so what the problems were with those suggestions. This
of course increases the number of times that the same (possibly stupid)
suggestions recur which annoys those who have already dismissed similar
suggestions for good reasons. I don't know where those issue lists Ville
mentions are despite having monitored this forum for a few years now, for
instance. I think that the main problem is that there is no funding for
administration of the "fringes" of the standardization process that this
forum is part of. I think this is a pity as this is where statistics about
what is really concerning the programmers out there can be collected.

Den tisdag 4 augusti 2015 kl. 10:34:12 UTC+2 skrev Ville Voutilainen:
>
> On 4 August 2015 at 11:05,  <isocp...@denisbider.com <javascript:>>
> wrote:
> >> N1085 is a WG14 proposal. Howard didn't fly into that meeting
> >> because it was a C committee meeting, not a C++ committee
> >> meeting.
> > Both are ISO groups. Are you honestly saying that, in WG21, it would
> have
> > worked differently?
>
> Howard has the ability to attend WG21 meetings, so in a sense, yes. He
> could've
> solicited an attending champion for the WG14 meeting. He happened to have
> higher-priority things to do. That does not logically constitute proof
> that the
> process is somehow broken, regardless of whether you've decided that it is
> just because your ideas aren't immediately agreed on by the people on
> this forum (a forum which, I remind again, is not an official
> discussion forum of the
> standards committee - most people here are committee outsiders. The reason
> why it's suggested to float proposals here is that this forum provides
> feedback
> from technically able people.).
>
> >> What makes it futile is mostly that people don't agree on what
> >> you're proposing. There's very little any process can do about that.
> >
> > There's legitimate interest in a relocatable property, to allow objects
> to
> > be moved via realloc/memcpy.
> >
> > The people who don't agree are those who lack have the flexibility to
> see
> > that an object is a concept, not a piece of data. That by copying bytes,
> the
> > object-concept can move in memory. This works with the language as-is;
> with
> > a variety of compilers and platforms; in practice.
>
> You have failed to answer how the lifetime of the moved-from object is
> handled.
> I said that its lifetime ends; you claimed it doesn't. That's complete
> nonsense,
> because the C++ memory model doesn't have such virtual memory, and an
> object is a region of storage, not something you have privately envisioned
> it to be.
>
> > It is not clear that this proposal is not viable. If it is truly not
> viable,
> > then I have worse things to say about you and your group than I already
> > have.
>
> We'll see what happens when Pablo follows up. With regards to things
> you have to say, I don't think I could care less.
>
> > If you truly cannot adjust to the idea that an object-concept can be
> moved
> > in memory, then God have mercy on your soul. That's all I can say.
>
> I fail to see what souls have to do with a technical discussion. If you
> want
> a proposal to be adopted, answer the feedback questions and keep
> your colorful remarks to yourself. If it's this hard for you to
> discuss a proposal
> or an idea, it's perhaps indeed better that you don't bother us with your
> ideas. We have plenty of people who are mature enough to understand
> that they do need to provide answers to the technical questions
> asked about their proposals.
>
> >> I expect people to find an attending champion for their proposals
> >> if they can't attend themselves. Many people have done that,
> >> successfully.
> > Yes. It's exactly what I said. The whole thing is based on personal
> > passions. If someone isn't pursuing something, it's dead.
>
> And you expect that your ideas are automatically pursued by other
> people who have more
> urgent work to do?
>
> > There's no sense of duty to keep track of ideas, and reconcile them,
> even if
> > they aren't your own.
>
> Nonsense. We have issue lists for exactly that purpose, and
> hard-working volunteers
> who keep them up to date and follow open issues actively. Again, you
> haven't got
> the slightest idea of what you're talking about.
>

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Going back to the original subject I would like to see an =
investigation into how often such a realloc_in_place would actually be poss=
ible. Usually mallocs try to pack blocks end to end so the chance that you =
can get more memory without<div>moving the data is probably slim. Reducing =
the size of course works but could leave the heap in a much more fragmented=
 state.</div><div><br></div><div>On the meta-discussion I find it very hard=
 to find what has been suggested before and even more so what the problems =
were with those suggestions. This of course increases the number of times t=
hat the same (possibly stupid) suggestions recur which annoys those who hav=
e already dismissed similar suggestions for good reasons. I don&#39;t know =
where those issue lists Ville mentions are despite having monitored this fo=
rum for a few years now, for instance. I think that the main problem is tha=
t there is no funding for administration of the &quot;fringes&quot; of the =
standardization process that this forum is part of. I think this is a pity =
as this is where statistics about what is really concerning the programmers=
 out there can be collected.<br><br>Den tisdag 4 augusti 2015 kl. 10:34:12 =
UTC+2 skrev Ville Voutilainen:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">=
On 4 August 2015 at 11:05, =C2=A0&lt;<a href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_bla=
nk" gdf-obfuscated-mailto=3D"2j0Mk9nSDwAJ" rel=3D"nofollow" onmousedown=3D"=
this.href=3D&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39=
;javascript:&#39;;return true;">isocp...@denisbider.com</a>&gt; wrote:
<br>&gt;&gt; N1085 is a WG14 proposal. Howard didn&#39;t fly into that meet=
ing
<br>&gt;&gt; because it was a C committee meeting, not a C++ committee
<br>&gt;&gt; meeting.
<br>&gt; Both are ISO groups. Are you honestly saying that, in WG21, it wou=
ld have
<br>&gt; worked differently?
<br>
<br>Howard has the ability to attend WG21 meetings, so in a sense, yes. He =
could&#39;ve
<br>solicited an attending champion for the WG14 meeting. He happened to ha=
ve
<br>higher-priority things to do. That does not logically constitute proof =
that the
<br>process is somehow broken, regardless of whether you&#39;ve decided tha=
t it is
<br>just because your ideas aren&#39;t immediately agreed on by the people =
on
<br>this forum (a forum which, I remind again, is not an official
<br>discussion forum of the
<br>standards committee - most people here are committee outsiders. The rea=
son
<br>why it&#39;s suggested to float proposals here is that this forum provi=
des feedback
<br>from technically able people.).
<br>
<br>&gt;&gt; What makes it futile is mostly that people don&#39;t agree on =
what
<br>&gt;&gt; you&#39;re proposing. There&#39;s very little any process can =
do about that.
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; There&#39;s legitimate interest in a relocatable property, to allo=
w objects to
<br>&gt; be moved via realloc/memcpy.
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; The people who don&#39;t agree are those who lack have the flexibi=
lity to see
<br>&gt; that an object is a concept, not a piece of data. That by copying =
bytes, the
<br>&gt; object-concept can move in memory. This works with the language as=
-is; with
<br>&gt; a variety of compilers and platforms; in practice.
<br>
<br>You have failed to answer how the lifetime of the moved-from object is =
handled.
<br>I said that its lifetime ends; you claimed it doesn&#39;t. That&#39;s c=
omplete nonsense,
<br>because the C++ memory model doesn&#39;t have such virtual memory, and =
an
<br>object is a region of storage, not something you have privately envisio=
ned
<br>it to be.
<br>
<br>&gt; It is not clear that this proposal is not viable. If it is truly n=
ot viable,
<br>&gt; then I have worse things to say about you and your group than I al=
ready
<br>&gt; have.
<br>
<br>We&#39;ll see what happens when Pablo follows up. With regards to thing=
s
<br>you have to say, I don&#39;t think I could care less.
<br>
<br>&gt; If you truly cannot adjust to the idea that an object-concept can =
be moved
<br>&gt; in memory, then God have mercy on your soul. That&#39;s all I can =
say.
<br>
<br>I fail to see what souls have to do with a technical discussion. If you=
 want
<br>a proposal to be adopted, answer the feedback questions and keep
<br>your colorful remarks to yourself. If it&#39;s this hard for you to
<br>discuss a proposal
<br>or an idea, it&#39;s perhaps indeed better that you don&#39;t bother us=
 with your
<br>ideas. We have plenty of people who are mature enough to understand
<br>that they do need to provide answers to the technical questions
<br>asked about their proposals.
<br>
<br>&gt;&gt; I expect people to find an attending champion for their propos=
als
<br>&gt;&gt; if they can&#39;t attend themselves. Many people have done tha=
t,
<br>&gt;&gt; successfully.
<br>&gt; Yes. It&#39;s exactly what I said. The whole thing is based on per=
sonal
<br>&gt; passions. If someone isn&#39;t pursuing something, it&#39;s dead.
<br>
<br>And you expect that your ideas are automatically pursued by other
<br>people who have more
<br>urgent work to do?
<br>
<br>&gt; There&#39;s no sense of duty to keep track of ideas, and reconcile=
 them, even if
<br>&gt; they aren&#39;t your own.
<br>
<br>Nonsense. We have issue lists for exactly that purpose, and
<br>hard-working volunteers
<br>who keep them up to date and follow open issues actively. Again, you ha=
ven&#39;t got
<br>the slightest idea of what you&#39;re talking about.
<br></blockquote></div></div>

<p></p>

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On 4 August 2015 at 12:31, Bengt Gustafsson
<bengt.gustafsson@beamways.com> wrote:
> suggestions for good reasons. I don't know where those issue lists Ville
> mentions are despite having monitored this forum for a few years now, for


http://open-std.org/JTC1/SC22/WG21/docs/cwg_active.html
http://cplusplus.github.io/LWG/lwg-active.html
http://cplusplus.github.io/EWG/ewg-active.html
https://issues.isocpp.org/

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Ville - you are making my points!


Firstly: Yes! I am prone to make colorful remarks. But how level-headed I
am, and how good an idea I bring, are two independent concepts! Ideas need
to be accepted from anyone, level-headed or not, because they are not *that
person's *ideas, they are ideas, and they have merit regardless of who
voiced them. This is why it's wrong to require that the person who brings
the idea also represents it in meeting. Ideas need to be brought by anyone,
but *then *they need to be picked up by people more experienced with the
process.

Now of course, the whole problem here is the volunteerism. Volunteers work
for whom? For their values; for their conscience; for their aspirations;
for themselves. This is not to say they won't serve others also.

So: you're not set up to take ideas from people who can't represent them
well.


Secondly: Yes! I lack the knowledge to explain, in language terms, how
moving an object with memcpy is properly described. I can explain it in
intuitive terms, but this isn't the answer you want. The answer you want is
in terms of the existing language spec, and here I completely lack the
background.

But just because I lack the background, doesn't mean the idea is bad!
Again, you're not set up to take ideas from people who bring them in
intuitive terms.

Are you seeing, or are you not seeing, that if N libraries do the same
thing X, and this works under the language as-is, but it's undefined
according to specification - that the problem is in the specification, not
in the use?

Are you seeing that someone who points this out is not necessarily in a
position to resolve the issue with the specification; but that this doesn't
mean that the issue should not be resolved?


Now, consider this:

Why should it be possible for me to come to your mailing list, and unload
my ideas on you free of charge, no matter whether anyone likes, or will
accept, any of my proposals?

Why should I not have to pay, for example, $100, or $200, to have a
suggestion be reviewed and considered, by someone in the standards process?

Why should I not, in exchange for this payment, receive some assistance
with my deficiencies?

Why do I have to become *part* of the standards process; to seriously
invest myself in it; when all I want is to float an idea, and have it be
properly represented?

I understand I can hire someone to do this. Maybe someone on this list
would be willing to do so? I don't know!

But what if this was a service, provided as a matter of course? What if
this was the interface by which language users, who want to just express a
need, could *communicate* these needs, in whatever non-expert ways they can
express them; and then *still* have these needs be properly represented in
meetings?

Would that not be an improvement, over the current state of things?

And the money collected this way - could it not be spent on something
useful? What if it - for example - helped pay for expenses of working group
meetings; or for the work done by the volunteers?


On Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 2:34:12 AM UTC-6, Ville Voutilainen wrote:

> On 4 August 2015 at 11:05,  <isocp...@denisbider.com <javascript:>>
> wrote:
> >> N1085 is a WG14 proposal. Howard didn't fly into that meeting
> >> because it was a C committee meeting, not a C++ committee
> >> meeting.
> > Both are ISO groups. Are you honestly saying that, in WG21, it would
> have
> > worked differently?
>
> Howard has the ability to attend WG21 meetings, so in a sense, yes. He
> could've
> solicited an attending champion for the WG14 meeting. He happened to have
> higher-priority things to do. That does not logically constitute proof
> that the
> process is somehow broken, regardless of whether you've decided that it is
> just because your ideas aren't immediately agreed on by the people on
> this forum (a forum which, I remind again, is not an official
> discussion forum of the
> standards committee - most people here are committee outsiders. The reason
> why it's suggested to float proposals here is that this forum provides
> feedback
> from technically able people.).
>
> >> What makes it futile is mostly that people don't agree on what
> >> you're proposing. There's very little any process can do about that.
> >
> > There's legitimate interest in a relocatable property, to allow objects
> to
> > be moved via realloc/memcpy.
> >
> > The people who don't agree are those who lack have the flexibility to
> see
> > that an object is a concept, not a piece of data. That by copying bytes,
> the
> > object-concept can move in memory. This works with the language as-is;
> with
> > a variety of compilers and platforms; in practice.
>
> You have failed to answer how the lifetime of the moved-from object is
> handled.
> I said that its lifetime ends; you claimed it doesn't. That's complete
> nonsense,
> because the C++ memory model doesn't have such virtual memory, and an
> object is a region of storage, not something you have privately envisioned
> it to be.
>
> > It is not clear that this proposal is not viable. If it is truly not
> viable,
> > then I have worse things to say about you and your group than I already
> > have.
>
> We'll see what happens when Pablo follows up. With regards to things
> you have to say, I don't think I could care less.
>
> > If you truly cannot adjust to the idea that an object-concept can be
> moved
> > in memory, then God have mercy on your soul. That's all I can say.
>
> I fail to see what souls have to do with a technical discussion. If you
> want
> a proposal to be adopted, answer the feedback questions and keep
> your colorful remarks to yourself. If it's this hard for you to
> discuss a proposal
> or an idea, it's perhaps indeed better that you don't bother us with your
> ideas. We have plenty of people who are mature enough to understand
> that they do need to provide answers to the technical questions
> asked about their proposals.
>
> >> I expect people to find an attending champion for their proposals
> >> if they can't attend themselves. Many people have done that,
> >> successfully.
> > Yes. It's exactly what I said. The whole thing is based on personal
> > passions. If someone isn't pursuing something, it's dead.
>
> And you expect that your ideas are automatically pursued by other
> people who have more
> urgent work to do?
>
> > There's no sense of duty to keep track of ideas, and reconcile them,
> even if
> > they aren't your own.
>
> Nonsense. We have issue lists for exactly that purpose, and
> hard-working volunteers
> who keep them up to date and follow open issues actively. Again, you
> haven't got
> the slightest idea of what you're talking about.
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Ville - you are making my points!</div><div><br></div=
><div><br></div><div>Firstly: Yes! I am prone to=C2=A0make colorful remarks=
.. But=C2=A0how level-headed I am, and how good=C2=A0an idea I bring, are tw=
o independent concepts!=C2=A0Ideas need to be accepted from anyone, level-h=
eaded or not, because they are not <em>that person&#39;s </em>ideas, they a=
re ideas, and they have merit regardless of who voiced them. This is why it=
&#39;s wrong to require that the person who brings the idea also represents=
 it in meeting. Ideas need to be brought by anyone, but <em>then </em>they =
need to be picked up by people more experienced with the process.</div><div=
><br></div><div>Now of course, the whole problem here is the volunteerism. =
Volunteers work for whom? For their values; for their conscience; for their=
 aspirations; for themselves. This is not to say they won&#39;t serve other=
s also.</div><div><br></div><div>So: you&#39;re not set up to take ideas fr=
om people who can&#39;t represent them well.</div><div><br></div><div><br><=
/div><div>Secondly: Yes! I lack the knowledge to explain, in language terms=
, how moving an object with memcpy is properly described.=C2=A0I can explai=
n it in intuitive terms, but this isn&#39;t the answer you want. The answer=
 you want is in terms of the existing language spec, and here I completely =
lack the background.</div><div><br></div><div>But just because I lack the b=
ackground, doesn&#39;t mean the idea is bad! Again, you&#39;re not set up t=
o take ideas from people who bring them in intuitive terms.</div><div><br><=
/div><div>Are you seeing, or are you not seeing, that if N libraries do the=
 same thing X, and this works under the language as-is, but it&#39;s undefi=
ned according to specification - that the problem is in the specification, =
not in the use?</div><div><br></div><div>Are you seeing that someone who po=
ints this out is not necessarily in a position to resolve the issue with th=
e specification; but that this doesn&#39;t mean that the issue should not b=
e resolved?</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Now, consider this:</di=
v><div><br></div><div>Why should it be possible for me to come to your mail=
ing list, and unload my ideas on you free of charge, no matter whether anyo=
ne likes, or will accept, any of my proposals?</div><div><br></div><div>Why=
 should I not have to pay, for example, $100, or $200, to have a suggestion=
 be reviewed and considered, by someone in the standards process?</div><div=
><br></div><div>Why should I not, in exchange for this payment, receive som=
e assistance with my deficiencies?</div><div><br></div><div>Why do I have t=
o become <em>part</em> of the standards process; to seriously invest myself=
 in it; when all I want is to float an idea, and have it be properly repres=
ented?</div><div><br></div><div>I understand I can hire someone to do this.=
 Maybe someone on this list would be willing to do so? I don&#39;t know!</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>But what if this was a service, provided as a matter=
 of course? What if this was the interface by which language users, who wan=
t to just express a need, could <em>communicate</em> these needs, in whatev=
er non-expert ways they can express them; and then <em>still</em> have thes=
e needs be properly represented in meetings?</div><div><br></div><div>Would=
 that not be an improvement, over the current state of things?</div><div><b=
r></div><div>And the money collected this way - could it not be spent on so=
mething useful?=C2=A0What if it=C2=A0-=C2=A0for example - helped pay for ex=
penses of working group meetings; or for the work done by the volunteers?</=
div><div>=C2=A0<br><br>On Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 2:34:12 AM UTC-6, Vill=
e Voutilainen wrote:</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 20=
4); border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid;">On 4 August 2015 at =
11:05, =C2=A0&lt;<a onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;javascript:&#39;;return=
 true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;" href=3D"=
javascript:" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" gdf-obfuscated-mailto=3D"2j=
0Mk9nSDwAJ">isocp...@denisbider.com</a>&gt; wrote:
<br>&gt;&gt; N1085 is a WG14 proposal. Howard didn&#39;t fly into that meet=
ing
<br>&gt;&gt; because it was a C committee meeting, not a C++ committee
<br>&gt;&gt; meeting.
<br>&gt; Both are ISO groups. Are you honestly saying that, in WG21, it wou=
ld have
<br>&gt; worked differently?
<br>
<br>Howard has the ability to attend WG21 meetings, so in a sense, yes. He =
could&#39;ve
<br>solicited an attending champion for the WG14 meeting. He happened to ha=
ve
<br>higher-priority things to do. That does not logically constitute proof =
that the
<br>process is somehow broken, regardless of whether you&#39;ve decided tha=
t it is
<br>just because your ideas aren&#39;t immediately agreed on by the people =
on
<br>this forum (a forum which, I remind again, is not an official
<br>discussion forum of the
<br>standards committee - most people here are committee outsiders. The rea=
son
<br>why it&#39;s suggested to float proposals here is that this forum provi=
des feedback
<br>from technically able people.).
<br>
<br>&gt;&gt; What makes it futile is mostly that people don&#39;t agree on =
what
<br>&gt;&gt; you&#39;re proposing. There&#39;s very little any process can =
do about that.
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; There&#39;s legitimate interest in a relocatable property, to allo=
w objects to
<br>&gt; be moved via realloc/memcpy.
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; The people who don&#39;t agree are those who lack have the flexibi=
lity to see
<br>&gt; that an object is a concept, not a piece of data. That by copying =
bytes, the
<br>&gt; object-concept can move in memory. This works with the language as=
-is; with
<br>&gt; a variety of compilers and platforms; in practice.
<br>
<br>You have failed to answer how the lifetime of the moved-from object is =
handled.
<br>I said that its lifetime ends; you claimed it doesn&#39;t. That&#39;s c=
omplete nonsense,
<br>because the C++ memory model doesn&#39;t have such virtual memory, and =
an
<br>object is a region of storage, not something you have privately envisio=
ned
<br>it to be.
<br>
<br>&gt; It is not clear that this proposal is not viable. If it is truly n=
ot viable,
<br>&gt; then I have worse things to say about you and your group than I al=
ready
<br>&gt; have.
<br>
<br>We&#39;ll see what happens when Pablo follows up. With regards to thing=
s
<br>you have to say, I don&#39;t think I could care less.
<br>
<br>&gt; If you truly cannot adjust to the idea that an object-concept can =
be moved
<br>&gt; in memory, then God have mercy on your soul. That&#39;s all I can =
say.
<br>
<br>I fail to see what souls have to do with a technical discussion. If you=
 want
<br>a proposal to be adopted, answer the feedback questions and keep
<br>your colorful remarks to yourself. If it&#39;s this hard for you to
<br>discuss a proposal
<br>or an idea, it&#39;s perhaps indeed better that you don&#39;t bother us=
 with your
<br>ideas. We have plenty of people who are mature enough to understand
<br>that they do need to provide answers to the technical questions
<br>asked about their proposals.
<br>
<br>&gt;&gt; I expect people to find an attending champion for their propos=
als
<br>&gt;&gt; if they can&#39;t attend themselves. Many people have done tha=
t,
<br>&gt;&gt; successfully.
<br>&gt; Yes. It&#39;s exactly what I said. The whole thing is based on per=
sonal
<br>&gt; passions. If someone isn&#39;t pursuing something, it&#39;s dead.
<br>
<br>And you expect that your ideas are automatically pursued by other
<br>people who have more
<br>urgent work to do?
<br>
<br>&gt; There&#39;s no sense of duty to keep track of ideas, and reconcile=
 them, even if
<br>&gt; they aren&#39;t your own.
<br>
<br>Nonsense. We have issue lists for exactly that purpose, and
<br>hard-working volunteers
<br>who keep them up to date and follow open issues actively. Again, you ha=
ven&#39;t got
<br>the slightest idea of what you&#39;re talking about.
<br></blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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What I'm saying, basically, is that what you have here is a type of court.
This court has its laws, its procedures; it has case law that needs to be
studied (past proposals); it has its judges and its juries.

Right now, it seems as though you're expecting everyone who brings a case
to not only represent themselves; but also to learn the ins and the outs of
the court, just like veteran participants. A person who brings a proposal
is expected to learn the court's laws, the procedures, to study the case
law, and to express their proposal in terms that are legally correct and
accurate. No quarter is given to those that cannot, or will not.

What you need in this court system is - lawyers. By that, I don't mean
people who argue for the sake of arguing. I mean attorneys: people who can
represent clients, who provide an interface between the public and the
court. People who can take a case, and represent that case properly in
front of the court.

Right now, you don't have that interface. Which means that, nominally, your
process is open; *aaanyone* can participate (wink wink). But in fact, you
have a brick wall of statutory law, case law, and procedure, all of which
have to be followed to achieve anything; and which keep out anyone but the
most committed.


On Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 5:49:41 AM UTC-6, isocp...@denisbider.com
wrote:

> Ville - you are making my points!
>
>
> Firstly: Yes! I am prone to make colorful remarks. But how level-headed I
> am, and how good an idea I bring, are two independent concepts! Ideas need
> to be accepted from anyone, level-headed or not, because they are not *that
> person's *ideas, they are ideas, and they have merit regardless of who
> voiced them. This is why it's wrong to require that the person who brings
> the idea also represents it in meeting. Ideas need to be brought by anyone,
> but *then *they need to be picked up by people more experienced with the
> process.
>
> Now of course, the whole problem here is the volunteerism. Volunteers work
> for whom? For their values; for their conscience; for their aspirations;
> for themselves. This is not to say they won't serve others also.
>
> So: you're not set up to take ideas from people who can't represent them
> well.
>
>
> Secondly: Yes! I lack the knowledge to explain, in language terms, how
> moving an object with memcpy is properly described. I can explain it in
> intuitive terms, but this isn't the answer you want. The answer you want is
> in terms of the existing language spec, and here I completely lack the
> background.
>
> But just because I lack the background, doesn't mean the idea is bad!
> Again, you're not set up to take ideas from people who bring them in
> intuitive terms.
>
> Are you seeing, or are you not seeing, that if N libraries do the same
> thing X, and this works under the language as-is, but it's undefined
> according to specification - that the problem is in the specification, not
> in the use?
>
> Are you seeing that someone who points this out is not necessarily in a
> position to resolve the issue with the specification; but that this doesn't
> mean that the issue should not be resolved?
>
>
> Now, consider this:
>
> Why should it be possible for me to come to your mailing list, and unload
> my ideas on you free of charge, no matter whether anyone likes, or will
> accept, any of my proposals?
>
> Why should I not have to pay, for example, $100, or $200, to have a
> suggestion be reviewed and considered, by someone in the standards process?
>
> Why should I not, in exchange for this payment, receive some assistance
> with my deficiencies?
>
> Why do I have to become *part* of the standards process; to seriously
> invest myself in it; when all I want is to float an idea, and have it be
> properly represented?
>
> I understand I can hire someone to do this. Maybe someone on this list
> would be willing to do so? I don't know!
>
> But what if this was a service, provided as a matter of course? What if
> this was the interface by which language users, who want to just express a
> need, could *communicate* these needs, in whatever non-expert ways they
> can express them; and then *still* have these needs be properly
> represented in meetings?
>
> Would that not be an improvement, over the current state of things?
>
> And the money collected this way - could it not be spent on something
> useful? What if it - for example - helped pay for expenses of working group
> meetings; or for the work done by the volunteers?
>
>
> On Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 2:34:12 AM UTC-6, Ville Voutilainen wrote:
>
>> On 4 August 2015 at 11:05,  <isocp...@denisbider.com> wrote:
>> >> N1085 is a WG14 proposal. Howard didn't fly into that meeting
>> >> because it was a C committee meeting, not a C++ committee
>> >> meeting.
>> > Both are ISO groups. Are you honestly saying that, in WG21, it would
>> have
>> > worked differently?
>>
>> Howard has the ability to attend WG21 meetings, so in a sense, yes. He
>> could've
>> solicited an attending champion for the WG14 meeting. He happened to have
>> higher-priority things to do. That does not logically constitute proof
>> that the
>> process is somehow broken, regardless of whether you've decided that it
>> is
>> just because your ideas aren't immediately agreed on by the people on
>> this forum (a forum which, I remind again, is not an official
>> discussion forum of the
>> standards committee - most people here are committee outsiders. The
>> reason
>> why it's suggested to float proposals here is that this forum provides
>> feedback
>> from technically able people.).
>>
>> >> What makes it futile is mostly that people don't agree on what
>> >> you're proposing. There's very little any process can do about that.
>> >
>> > There's legitimate interest in a relocatable property, to allow objects
>> to
>> > be moved via realloc/memcpy.
>> >
>> > The people who don't agree are those who lack have the flexibility to
>> see
>> > that an object is a concept, not a piece of data. That by copying
>> bytes, the
>> > object-concept can move in memory. This works with the language as-is;
>> with
>> > a variety of compilers and platforms; in practice.
>>
>> You have failed to answer how the lifetime of the moved-from object is
>> handled.
>> I said that its lifetime ends; you claimed it doesn't. That's complete
>> nonsense,
>> because the C++ memory model doesn't have such virtual memory, and an
>> object is a region of storage, not something you have privately
>> envisioned
>> it to be.
>>
>> > It is not clear that this proposal is not viable. If it is truly not
>> viable,
>> > then I have worse things to say about you and your group than I already
>> > have.
>>
>> We'll see what happens when Pablo follows up. With regards to things
>> you have to say, I don't think I could care less.
>>
>> > If you truly cannot adjust to the idea that an object-concept can be
>> moved
>> > in memory, then God have mercy on your soul. That's all I can say.
>>
>> I fail to see what souls have to do with a technical discussion. If you
>> want
>> a proposal to be adopted, answer the feedback questions and keep
>> your colorful remarks to yourself. If it's this hard for you to
>> discuss a proposal
>> or an idea, it's perhaps indeed better that you don't bother us with your
>> ideas. We have plenty of people who are mature enough to understand
>> that they do need to provide answers to the technical questions
>> asked about their proposals.
>>
>> >> I expect people to find an attending champion for their proposals
>> >> if they can't attend themselves. Many people have done that,
>> >> successfully.
>> > Yes. It's exactly what I said. The whole thing is based on personal
>> > passions. If someone isn't pursuing something, it's dead.
>>
>> And you expect that your ideas are automatically pursued by other
>> people who have more
>> urgent work to do?
>>
>> > There's no sense of duty to keep track of ideas, and reconcile them,
>> even if
>> > they aren't your own.
>>
>> Nonsense. We have issue lists for exactly that purpose, and
>> hard-working volunteers
>> who keep them up to date and follow open issues actively. Again, you
>> haven't got
>> the slightest idea of what you're talking about.
>>
>

--

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>What I&#39;m saying, basically, is that what you have=
 here is a type of court. This court has its laws, its procedures; it has c=
ase law that needs to be studied (past=C2=A0proposals); it has its judges a=
nd its juries.</div><div><br></div><div>Right now, it seems as though you&#=
39;re expecting everyone who brings a case to not only represent themselves=
; but also to learn the ins and the outs of the court, just like veteran pa=
rticipants. A person who brings a proposal is expected to learn the court&#=
39;s laws, the procedures, to study the case law, and to express their prop=
osal in terms that are legally correct and accurate. No quarter is given to=
 those that cannot, or will not.</div><div><br></div><div>What you need in =
this court system is - lawyers. By that, I don&#39;t mean people who argue =
for the sake of arguing. I mean=C2=A0attorneys: people who=C2=A0can represe=
nt clients, who provide an interface between the public and the court.=C2=
=A0People who can take a case, and represent that case properly in front of=
 the court.</div><div><br></div><div>Right now, you don&#39;t have that int=
erface. Which means that, nominally, your process is open; <em>aaanyone</em=
> can participate (wink wink).=C2=A0But in fact, you have a brick wall of s=
tatutory law, case law, and procedure,=C2=A0all of which have to be followe=
d to achieve anything; and which=C2=A0keep out anyone but the most committe=
d. </div><div><br><br>On Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 5:49:41 AM UTC-6, isocp=
....@denisbider.com wrote:</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; border-left-color: rgb(204, 20=
4, 204); border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid;"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div>Ville - you are making my points!</div><div><br></div><div><br></div=
><div>Firstly: Yes! I am prone to=C2=A0make colorful remarks. But=C2=A0how =
level-headed I am, and how good=C2=A0an idea I bring, are two independent c=
oncepts!=C2=A0Ideas need to be accepted from anyone, level-headed or not, b=
ecause they are not <em>that person&#39;s </em>ideas, they are ideas, and t=
hey have merit regardless of who voiced them. This is why it&#39;s wrong to=
 require that the person who brings the idea also represents it in meeting.=
 Ideas need to be brought by anyone, but <em>then </em>they need to be pick=
ed up by people more experienced with the process.</div><div><br></div><div=
>Now of course, the whole problem here is the volunteerism. Volunteers work=
 for whom? For their values; for their conscience; for their aspirations; f=
or themselves. This is not to say they won&#39;t serve others also.</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>So: you&#39;re not set up to take ideas from people who c=
an&#39;t represent them well.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Secon=
dly: Yes! I lack the knowledge to explain, in language terms, how moving an=
 object with memcpy is properly described.=C2=A0I can explain it in intuiti=
ve terms, but this isn&#39;t the answer you want. The answer you want is in=
 terms of the existing language spec, and here I completely lack the backgr=
ound.</div><div><br></div><div>But just because I lack the background, does=
n&#39;t mean the idea is bad! Again, you&#39;re not set up to take ideas fr=
om people who bring them in intuitive terms.</div><div><br></div><div>Are y=
ou seeing, or are you not seeing, that if N libraries do the same thing X, =
and this works under the language as-is, but it&#39;s undefined according t=
o specification - that the problem is in the specification, not in the use?=
</div><div><br></div><div>Are you seeing that someone who points this out i=
s not necessarily in a position to resolve the issue with the specification=
; but that this doesn&#39;t mean that the issue should not be resolved?</di=
v><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Now, consider this:</div><div><br></di=
v><div>Why should it be possible for me to come to your mailing list, and u=
nload my ideas on you free of charge, no matter whether anyone likes, or wi=
ll accept, any of my proposals?</div><div><br></div><div>Why should I not h=
ave to pay, for example, $100, or $200, to have a suggestion be reviewed an=
d considered, by someone in the standards process?</div><div><br></div><div=
>Why should I not, in exchange for this payment, receive some assistance wi=
th my deficiencies?</div><div><br></div><div>Why do I have to become <em>pa=
rt</em> of the standards process; to seriously invest myself in it; when al=
l I want is to float an idea, and have it be properly represented?</div><di=
v><br></div><div>I understand I can hire someone to do this. Maybe someone =
on this list would be willing to do so? I don&#39;t know!</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>But what if this was a service, provided as a matter of course? Wha=
t if this was the interface by which language users, who want to just expre=
ss a need, could <em>communicate</em> these needs, in whatever non-expert w=
ays they can express them; and then <em>still</em> have these needs be prop=
erly represented in meetings?</div><div><br></div><div>Would that not be an=
 improvement, over the current state of things?</div><div><br></div><div>An=
d the money collected this way - could it not be spent on something useful?=
=C2=A0What if it=C2=A0-=C2=A0for example - helped pay for expenses of worki=
ng group meetings; or for the work done by the volunteers?</div><div>=C2=A0=
<br><br>On Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 2:34:12 AM UTC-6, Ville Voutilainen w=
rote:</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0=
..8ex; padding-left: 1ex; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left=
-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid;">On 4 August 2015 at 11:05, =C2=A0&l=
t;<a rel=3D"nofollow">isocp...@denisbider.com</a>&gt; wrote:
<br>&gt;&gt; N1085 is a WG14 proposal. Howard didn&#39;t fly into that meet=
ing
<br>&gt;&gt; because it was a C committee meeting, not a C++ committee
<br>&gt;&gt; meeting.
<br>&gt; Both are ISO groups. Are you honestly saying that, in WG21, it wou=
ld have
<br>&gt; worked differently?
<br>
<br>Howard has the ability to attend WG21 meetings, so in a sense, yes. He =
could&#39;ve
<br>solicited an attending champion for the WG14 meeting. He happened to ha=
ve
<br>higher-priority things to do. That does not logically constitute proof =
that the
<br>process is somehow broken, regardless of whether you&#39;ve decided tha=
t it is
<br>just because your ideas aren&#39;t immediately agreed on by the people =
on
<br>this forum (a forum which, I remind again, is not an official
<br>discussion forum of the
<br>standards committee - most people here are committee outsiders. The rea=
son
<br>why it&#39;s suggested to float proposals here is that this forum provi=
des feedback
<br>from technically able people.).
<br>
<br>&gt;&gt; What makes it futile is mostly that people don&#39;t agree on =
what
<br>&gt;&gt; you&#39;re proposing. There&#39;s very little any process can =
do about that.
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; There&#39;s legitimate interest in a relocatable property, to allo=
w objects to
<br>&gt; be moved via realloc/memcpy.
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; The people who don&#39;t agree are those who lack have the flexibi=
lity to see
<br>&gt; that an object is a concept, not a piece of data. That by copying =
bytes, the
<br>&gt; object-concept can move in memory. This works with the language as=
-is; with
<br>&gt; a variety of compilers and platforms; in practice.
<br>
<br>You have failed to answer how the lifetime of the moved-from object is =
handled.
<br>I said that its lifetime ends; you claimed it doesn&#39;t. That&#39;s c=
omplete nonsense,
<br>because the C++ memory model doesn&#39;t have such virtual memory, and =
an
<br>object is a region of storage, not something you have privately envisio=
ned
<br>it to be.
<br>
<br>&gt; It is not clear that this proposal is not viable. If it is truly n=
ot viable,
<br>&gt; then I have worse things to say about you and your group than I al=
ready
<br>&gt; have.
<br>
<br>We&#39;ll see what happens when Pablo follows up. With regards to thing=
s
<br>you have to say, I don&#39;t think I could care less.
<br>
<br>&gt; If you truly cannot adjust to the idea that an object-concept can =
be moved
<br>&gt; in memory, then God have mercy on your soul. That&#39;s all I can =
say.
<br>
<br>I fail to see what souls have to do with a technical discussion. If you=
 want
<br>a proposal to be adopted, answer the feedback questions and keep
<br>your colorful remarks to yourself. If it&#39;s this hard for you to
<br>discuss a proposal
<br>or an idea, it&#39;s perhaps indeed better that you don&#39;t bother us=
 with your
<br>ideas. We have plenty of people who are mature enough to understand
<br>that they do need to provide answers to the technical questions
<br>asked about their proposals.
<br>
<br>&gt;&gt; I expect people to find an attending champion for their propos=
als
<br>&gt;&gt; if they can&#39;t attend themselves. Many people have done tha=
t,
<br>&gt;&gt; successfully.
<br>&gt; Yes. It&#39;s exactly what I said. The whole thing is based on per=
sonal
<br>&gt; passions. If someone isn&#39;t pursuing something, it&#39;s dead.
<br>
<br>And you expect that your ideas are automatically pursued by other
<br>people who have more
<br>urgent work to do?
<br>
<br>&gt; There&#39;s no sense of duty to keep track of ideas, and reconcile=
 them, even if
<br>&gt; they aren&#39;t your own.
<br>
<br>Nonsense. We have issue lists for exactly that purpose, and
<br>hard-working volunteers
<br>who keep them up to date and follow open issues actively. Again, you ha=
ven&#39;t got
<br>the slightest idea of what you&#39;re talking about.
<br></blockquote></div></blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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I try to avoid going ad-hominem, and don't take it harsh, try to think
about it. You are being childish here, you said you followed the process in
coming here to discuss the idea, but as soon as there is no 100% agreement
you bail out into personal remarks and attacks on other people. That is not
what discussion means.

You claim that ideas should be valued not by who presents them but by the
idea itself, you also admit not to be knowledgeable in the language of the
specification. Yet, when you are told that the idea is good, but that it
cannot be "implemented" in the language as straightforward as you think you
erupt into insults.  You want to discuss ideas for their worth but half of
your messages are offensive rants with no technical content.

Let me tell you how this really went in a different conversation:

- I want X
- That is a nice to have feature, cannot be done exactly like that, let's
work on that.
[At this point there are two different approaches that aim to make the
feature work within the language and are being discussed]
- But that is not how I see X and I want this for yesterday you morons! You
hate me and I hate you and how you do things.

Being able to relocate objects in memory is a valuable idea, you are not
the first to come up with it.  Different people here have added to the
discussion, there is currently a proposal being worked on (presented, in
the process of being updated) and David Krauss. This is far far far away
from the idea being rejected, as a matter of fact I see kind interest in
making this work within the language, if not in your terms --you don't
understand the complexity of maintaining a language-- in some terms.

I am sorry that you felt rejection, and I am even sorrier that you cannot
maintain a minimal amount of composure and attacked others.

I am not in the committee, I do personally know some people that are. I
won't defend them, not because they don't deserve it but because your
attacks are not worth it.

   David


On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 12:49 PM, <isocppgroup@denisbider.com> wrote:

> Ville - you are making my points!
>
>
> Firstly: Yes! I am prone to make colorful remarks. But how level-headed I
> am, and how good an idea I bring, are two independent concepts! Ideas need
> to be accepted from anyone, level-headed or not, because they are not *that
> person's *ideas, they are ideas, and they have merit regardless of who
> voiced them. This is why it's wrong to require that the person who brings
> the idea also represents it in meeting. Ideas need to be brought by anyone,
> but *then *they need to be picked up by people more experienced with the
> process.
>
> Now of course, the whole problem here is the volunteerism. Volunteers work
> for whom? For their values; for their conscience; for their aspirations;
> for themselves. This is not to say they won't serve others also.
>
> So: you're not set up to take ideas from people who can't represent them
> well.
>
>
> Secondly: Yes! I lack the knowledge to explain, in language terms, how
> moving an object with memcpy is properly described. I can explain it in
> intuitive terms, but this isn't the answer you want. The answer you want is
> in terms of the existing language spec, and here I completely lack the
> background.
>
> But just because I lack the background, doesn't mean the idea is bad!
> Again, you're not set up to take ideas from people who bring them in
> intuitive terms.
>
> Are you seeing, or are you not seeing, that if N libraries do the same
> thing X, and this works under the language as-is, but it's undefined
> according to specification - that the problem is in the specification, not
> in the use?
>
> Are you seeing that someone who points this out is not necessarily in a
> position to resolve the issue with the specification; but that this doesn't
> mean that the issue should not be resolved?
>
>
> Now, consider this:
>
> Why should it be possible for me to come to your mailing list, and unload
> my ideas on you free of charge, no matter whether anyone likes, or will
> accept, any of my proposals?
>
> Why should I not have to pay, for example, $100, or $200, to have a
> suggestion be reviewed and considered, by someone in the standards process?
>
> Why should I not, in exchange for this payment, receive some assistance
> with my deficiencies?
>
> Why do I have to become *part* of the standards process; to seriously
> invest myself in it; when all I want is to float an idea, and have it be
> properly represented?
>
> I understand I can hire someone to do this. Maybe someone on this list
> would be willing to do so? I don't know!
>
> But what if this was a service, provided as a matter of course? What if
> this was the interface by which language users, who want to just express a
> need, could *communicate* these needs, in whatever non-expert ways they
> can express them; and then *still* have these needs be properly
> represented in meetings?
>
> Would that not be an improvement, over the current state of things?
>
> And the money collected this way - could it not be spent on something
> useful? What if it - for example - helped pay for expenses of working group
> meetings; or for the work done by the volunteers?
>
>
> On Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 2:34:12 AM UTC-6, Ville Voutilainen wrote:
>
>> On 4 August 2015 at 11:05,  <isocp...@denisbider.com> wrote:
>> >> N1085 is a WG14 proposal. Howard didn't fly into that meeting
>> >> because it was a C committee meeting, not a C++ committee
>> >> meeting.
>> > Both are ISO groups. Are you honestly saying that, in WG21, it would
>> have
>> > worked differently?
>>
>> Howard has the ability to attend WG21 meetings, so in a sense, yes. He
>> could've
>> solicited an attending champion for the WG14 meeting. He happened to have
>> higher-priority things to do. That does not logically constitute proof
>> that the
>> process is somehow broken, regardless of whether you've decided that it
>> is
>> just because your ideas aren't immediately agreed on by the people on
>> this forum (a forum which, I remind again, is not an official
>> discussion forum of the
>> standards committee - most people here are committee outsiders. The
>> reason
>> why it's suggested to float proposals here is that this forum provides
>> feedback
>> from technically able people.).
>>
>> >> What makes it futile is mostly that people don't agree on what
>> >> you're proposing. There's very little any process can do about that.
>> >
>> > There's legitimate interest in a relocatable property, to allow objects
>> to
>> > be moved via realloc/memcpy.
>> >
>> > The people who don't agree are those who lack have the flexibility to
>> see
>> > that an object is a concept, not a piece of data. That by copying
>> bytes, the
>> > object-concept can move in memory. This works with the language as-is;
>> with
>> > a variety of compilers and platforms; in practice.
>>
>> You have failed to answer how the lifetime of the moved-from object is
>> handled.
>> I said that its lifetime ends; you claimed it doesn't. That's complete
>> nonsense,
>> because the C++ memory model doesn't have such virtual memory, and an
>> object is a region of storage, not something you have privately
>> envisioned
>> it to be.
>>
>> > It is not clear that this proposal is not viable. If it is truly not
>> viable,
>> > then I have worse things to say about you and your group than I already
>> > have.
>>
>> We'll see what happens when Pablo follows up. With regards to things
>> you have to say, I don't think I could care less.
>>
>> > If you truly cannot adjust to the idea that an object-concept can be
>> moved
>> > in memory, then God have mercy on your soul. That's all I can say.
>>
>> I fail to see what souls have to do with a technical discussion. If you
>> want
>> a proposal to be adopted, answer the feedback questions and keep
>> your colorful remarks to yourself. If it's this hard for you to
>> discuss a proposal
>> or an idea, it's perhaps indeed better that you don't bother us with your
>> ideas. We have plenty of people who are mature enough to understand
>> that they do need to provide answers to the technical questions
>> asked about their proposals.
>>
>> >> I expect people to find an attending champion for their proposals
>> >> if they can't attend themselves. Many people have done that,
>> >> successfully.
>> > Yes. It's exactly what I said. The whole thing is based on personal
>> > passions. If someone isn't pursuing something, it's dead.
>>
>> And you expect that your ideas are automatically pursued by other
>> people who have more
>> urgent work to do?
>>
>> > There's no sense of duty to keep track of ideas, and reconcile them,
>> even if
>> > they aren't your own.
>>
>> Nonsense. We have issue lists for exactly that purpose, and
>> hard-working volunteers
>> who keep them up to date and follow open issues actively. Again, you
>> haven't got
>> the slightest idea of what you're talking about.
>>
> --
>
> ---
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org.
> To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org.
> Visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/group/std-proposals/.
>

--

---
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org.
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--089e013d139e0858c6051c7b5554
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">I try to avoid going ad-hominem, and don&#39;t take it har=
sh, try to think about it. You are being childish here, you said you follow=
ed the process in coming here to discuss the idea, but as soon as there is =
no 100% agreement you bail out into personal remarks and attacks on other p=
eople. That is not what discussion means.<br><br>You claim that ideas shoul=
d be valued not by who presents them but by the idea itself, you also admit=
 not to be knowledgeable in the language of the specification. Yet, when yo=
u are told that the idea is good, but that it cannot be &quot;implemented&q=
uot; in the language as straightforward as you think you erupt into insults=
..=C2=A0 You want to discuss ideas for their worth but half of your messages=
 are offensive rants with no technical content.<br><br>Let me tell you how =
this really went in a different conversation:<br><br>- I want X<br>- That i=
s a nice to have feature, cannot be done exactly like that, let&#39;s work =
on that.<div>[At this point there are two different approaches that aim to =
make the feature work within the language and are being discussed]<br>- But=
 that is not how I see X and I want this for yesterday you morons! You hate=
 me and I hate you and how you do things.<br><br>Being able to relocate obj=
ects in memory is a valuable idea, you are not the first to come up with it=
..=C2=A0 Different people here have added to the discussion, there is curren=
tly a proposal being worked on (presented, in the process of being updated)=
 and David Krauss. This is far far far away from the idea being rejected, a=
s a matter of fact I see kind interest in making this work within the langu=
age, if not in your terms --you don&#39;t understand the complexity of main=
taining a language-- in some terms.<br><br>I am sorry that you felt rejecti=
on, and I am even sorrier that you cannot maintain a minimal amount of comp=
osure and attacked others.<br><br>I am not in the committee, I do personall=
y know some people that are. I won&#39;t defend them, not because they don&=
#39;t deserve it but because your attacks are not worth it.<br><br>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0David<br><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D=
"gmail_quote">On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 12:49 PM,  <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:isocppgroup@denisbider.com" target=3D"_blank">isocppgroup@deni=
sbider.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div>Ville - you are making my points!</div><div><br></div><div><b=
r></div><div>Firstly: Yes! I am prone to=C2=A0make colorful remarks. But=C2=
=A0how level-headed I am, and how good=C2=A0an idea I bring, are two indepe=
ndent concepts!=C2=A0Ideas need to be accepted from anyone, level-headed or=
 not, because they are not <em>that person&#39;s </em>ideas, they are ideas=
, and they have merit regardless of who voiced them. This is why it&#39;s w=
rong to require that the person who brings the idea also represents it in m=
eeting. Ideas need to be brought by anyone, but <em>then </em>they need to =
be picked up by people more experienced with the process.</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>Now of course, the whole problem here is the volunteerism. Voluntee=
rs work for whom? For their values; for their conscience; for their aspirat=
ions; for themselves. This is not to say they won&#39;t serve others also.<=
/div><div><br></div><div>So: you&#39;re not set up to take ideas from peopl=
e who can&#39;t represent them well.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><di=
v>Secondly: Yes! I lack the knowledge to explain, in language terms, how mo=
ving an object with memcpy is properly described.=C2=A0I can explain it in =
intuitive terms, but this isn&#39;t the answer you want. The answer you wan=
t is in terms of the existing language spec, and here I completely lack the=
 background.</div><div><br></div><div>But just because I lack the backgroun=
d, doesn&#39;t mean the idea is bad! Again, you&#39;re not set up to take i=
deas from people who bring them in intuitive terms.</div><div><br></div><di=
v>Are you seeing, or are you not seeing, that if N libraries do the same th=
ing X, and this works under the language as-is, but it&#39;s undefined acco=
rding to specification - that the problem is in the specification, not in t=
he use?</div><div><br></div><div>Are you seeing that someone who points thi=
s out is not necessarily in a position to resolve the issue with the specif=
ication; but that this doesn&#39;t mean that the issue should not be resolv=
ed?</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Now, consider this:</div><div><=
br></div><div>Why should it be possible for me to come to your mailing list=
, and unload my ideas on you free of charge, no matter whether anyone likes=
, or will accept, any of my proposals?</div><div><br></div><div>Why should =
I not have to pay, for example, $100, or $200, to have a suggestion be revi=
ewed and considered, by someone in the standards process?</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>Why should I not, in exchange for this payment, receive some assist=
ance with my deficiencies?</div><div><br></div><div>Why do I have to become=
 <em>part</em> of the standards process; to seriously invest myself in it; =
when all I want is to float an idea, and have it be properly represented?</=
div><div><br></div><div>I understand I can hire someone to do this. Maybe s=
omeone on this list would be willing to do so? I don&#39;t know!</div><div>=
<br></div><div>But what if this was a service, provided as a matter of cour=
se? What if this was the interface by which language users, who want to jus=
t express a need, could <em>communicate</em> these needs, in whatever non-e=
xpert ways they can express them; and then <em>still</em> have these needs =
be properly represented in meetings?</div><div><br></div><div>Would that no=
t be an improvement, over the current state of things?</div><div><br></div>=
<div>And the money collected this way - could it not be spent on something =
useful?=C2=A0What if it=C2=A0-=C2=A0for example - helped pay for expenses o=
f working group meetings; or for the work done by the volunteers?</div><div=
>=C2=A0<br><br>On Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 2:34:12 AM UTC-6, Ville Voutil=
ainen wrote:</div><div><div class=3D"h5"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(20=
4,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid">On 4 August 2015 =
at 11:05, =C2=A0&lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow">isocp...@denisbider.com</a>&gt; wro=
te:
<br>&gt;&gt; N1085 is a WG14 proposal. Howard didn&#39;t fly into that meet=
ing
<br>&gt;&gt; because it was a C committee meeting, not a C++ committee
<br>&gt;&gt; meeting.
<br>&gt; Both are ISO groups. Are you honestly saying that, in WG21, it wou=
ld have
<br>&gt; worked differently?
<br>
<br>Howard has the ability to attend WG21 meetings, so in a sense, yes. He =
could&#39;ve
<br>solicited an attending champion for the WG14 meeting. He happened to ha=
ve
<br>higher-priority things to do. That does not logically constitute proof =
that the
<br>process is somehow broken, regardless of whether you&#39;ve decided tha=
t it is
<br>just because your ideas aren&#39;t immediately agreed on by the people =
on
<br>this forum (a forum which, I remind again, is not an official
<br>discussion forum of the
<br>standards committee - most people here are committee outsiders. The rea=
son
<br>why it&#39;s suggested to float proposals here is that this forum provi=
des feedback
<br>from technically able people.).
<br>
<br>&gt;&gt; What makes it futile is mostly that people don&#39;t agree on =
what
<br>&gt;&gt; you&#39;re proposing. There&#39;s very little any process can =
do about that.
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; There&#39;s legitimate interest in a relocatable property, to allo=
w objects to
<br>&gt; be moved via realloc/memcpy.
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; The people who don&#39;t agree are those who lack have the flexibi=
lity to see
<br>&gt; that an object is a concept, not a piece of data. That by copying =
bytes, the
<br>&gt; object-concept can move in memory. This works with the language as=
-is; with
<br>&gt; a variety of compilers and platforms; in practice.
<br>
<br>You have failed to answer how the lifetime of the moved-from object is =
handled.
<br>I said that its lifetime ends; you claimed it doesn&#39;t. That&#39;s c=
omplete nonsense,
<br>because the C++ memory model doesn&#39;t have such virtual memory, and =
an
<br>object is a region of storage, not something you have privately envisio=
ned
<br>it to be.
<br>
<br>&gt; It is not clear that this proposal is not viable. If it is truly n=
ot viable,
<br>&gt; then I have worse things to say about you and your group than I al=
ready
<br>&gt; have.
<br>
<br>We&#39;ll see what happens when Pablo follows up. With regards to thing=
s
<br>you have to say, I don&#39;t think I could care less.
<br>
<br>&gt; If you truly cannot adjust to the idea that an object-concept can =
be moved
<br>&gt; in memory, then God have mercy on your soul. That&#39;s all I can =
say.
<br>
<br>I fail to see what souls have to do with a technical discussion. If you=
 want
<br>a proposal to be adopted, answer the feedback questions and keep
<br>your colorful remarks to yourself. If it&#39;s this hard for you to
<br>discuss a proposal
<br>or an idea, it&#39;s perhaps indeed better that you don&#39;t bother us=
 with your
<br>ideas. We have plenty of people who are mature enough to understand
<br>that they do need to provide answers to the technical questions
<br>asked about their proposals.
<br>
<br>&gt;&gt; I expect people to find an attending champion for their propos=
als
<br>&gt;&gt; if they can&#39;t attend themselves. Many people have done tha=
t,
<br>&gt;&gt; successfully.
<br>&gt; Yes. It&#39;s exactly what I said. The whole thing is based on per=
sonal
<br>&gt; passions. If someone isn&#39;t pursuing something, it&#39;s dead.
<br>
<br>And you expect that your ideas are automatically pursued by other
<br>people who have more
<br>urgent work to do?
<br>
<br>&gt; There&#39;s no sense of duty to keep track of ideas, and reconcile=
 them, even if
<br>&gt; they aren&#39;t your own.
<br>
<br>Nonsense. We have issue lists for exactly that purpose, and
<br>hard-working volunteers
<br>who keep them up to date and follow open issues actively. Again, you ha=
ven&#39;t got
<br>the slightest idea of what you&#39;re talking about.
<br></blockquote></div></div></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">

<p></p>

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</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

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This is much more polite than other messages, but that does not make it
right.

On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 1:19 PM, <isocppgroup@denisbider.com> wrote:

> What I'm saying, basically, is that what you have here is a type of court.
> This court has its laws, its procedures; it has case law that needs to be
> studied (past proposals); it has its judges and its juries.
>
> Right now, it seems as though you're expecting everyone who brings a case
> to not only represent themselves; but also to learn the ins and the outs of
> the court, just like veteran participants. A person who brings a proposal
> is expected to learn the court's laws, the procedures, to study the case
> law, and to express their proposal in terms that are legally correct and
> accurate. No quarter is given to those that cannot, or will not.
>

False. You came with an idea (not novel, but an idea) and the idea has been
partly discussed --the discussion is pretty much washed off due to your
deviation from technical discussion into useless attacks that have probably
offended people that volunteer their own personal time for *you* (and 10
other million) people. The idea is not being ignored.

What you need in this court system is - lawyers. By that, I don't mean
> people who argue for the sake of arguing. I mean attorneys: people who can
> represent clients, who provide an interface between the public and the
> court. People who can take a case, and represent that case properly in
> front of the court.
>

You can discuss how you view the solution, and you can convince people in
the list of its value. If it is valuable I am sure that some of the people
here that are in the committee may volunteer to champion it. Your problem
is that you have not convinced and you cannot coerce them into defending
your idea. That is the point, after personal attacks, when you've been
suggested to go and defend the idea yourself.

Right now, you don't have that interface. Which means that, nominally, your
> process is open; *aaanyone* can participate (wink wink). But in fact, you
> have a brick wall of statutory law, case law, and procedure, all of which
> have to be followed to achieve anything; and which keep out anyone but the
> most committed.
>

Don't confuse terms, a process is open if people can participate. Openness
does not mean that it is cost-free, and clearly it does not mean that you
get your say, just that you get to say it. There are different ways of
working with this, you can convince people here, or you can go to your
national body and convince them to defend your case... but any of those
depends on your approach being viable.

Unless you can make your approach work within the language there is little
hope for your particular view of how the feature is laid out.  At any rate
I feel that the idea will progress in one form or another because it is a
good idea and good ideas are valued. Even if one of the people defending it
is offensive.

    David

>

>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra">This is much more polite than o=
ther messages, but that does not make it right.<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_=
quote">On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 1:19 PM,  <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:isocppgroup@denisbider.com" target=3D"_blank">isocppgroup@denisbider.c=
om</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"=
><div>What I&#39;m saying, basically, is that what you have here is a type =
of court. This court has its laws, its procedures; it has case law that nee=
ds to be studied (past=C2=A0proposals); it has its judges and its juries.</=
div><div><br></div><div>Right now, it seems as though you&#39;re expecting =
everyone who brings a case to not only represent themselves; but also to le=
arn the ins and the outs of the court, just like veteran participants. A pe=
rson who brings a proposal is expected to learn the court&#39;s laws, the p=
rocedures, to study the case law, and to express their proposal in terms th=
at are legally correct and accurate. No quarter is given to those that cann=
ot, or will not.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>False. You cam=
e with an idea (not novel, but an idea) and the idea has been partly discus=
sed --the discussion is pretty much washed off due to your deviation from t=
echnical discussion into useless attacks that have probably offended people=
 that volunteer their own personal time for *you* (and 10 other million) pe=
ople. The idea is not being ignored.<br></div><div><br></div><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>What you need in this court system i=
s - lawyers. By that, I don&#39;t mean people who argue for the sake of arg=
uing. I mean=C2=A0attorneys: people who=C2=A0can represent clients, who pro=
vide an interface between the public and the court.=C2=A0People who can tak=
e a case, and represent that case properly in front of the court.</div></di=
v></blockquote><div><br></div><div>You can discuss how you view the solutio=
n, and you can convince people in the list of its value. If it is valuable =
I am sure that some of the people here that are in the committee may volunt=
eer to champion it. Your problem is that you have not convinced and you can=
not coerce them into defending your idea. That is the point, after personal=
 attacks, when you&#39;ve been suggested to go and defend the idea yourself=
..<br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div>Right now, you don&#39;t have that interface. Which means that, nominal=
ly, your process is open; <em>aaanyone</em> can participate (wink wink).=C2=
=A0But in fact, you have a brick wall of statutory law, case law, and proce=
dure,=C2=A0all of which have to be followed to achieve anything; and which=
=C2=A0keep out anyone but the most committed.</div></div></blockquote><div>=
<br>Don&#39;t confuse terms, a process is open if people can participate. O=
penness does not mean that it is cost-free, and clearly it does not mean th=
at you get your say, just that you get to say it. There are different ways =
of working with this, you can convince people here, or you can go to your n=
ational body and convince them to defend your case... but any of those depe=
nds on your approach being viable.<br><br>Unless you can make your approach=
 work within the language there is little hope for your particular view of =
how the feature is laid out.=C2=A0 At any rate I feel that the idea will pr=
ogress in one form or another because it is a good idea and good ideas are =
valued. Even if one of the people defending it is offensive.<br><br>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 David</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px=
 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-=
left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"></div></blockquote><div=
>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-=
style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"></div></blockquote><div><br>=
</div></div></div></div>

<p></p>

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--001a11c264be238615051c7b8ac9--

.

On 4 August 2015 at 14:49,  <isocppgroup@denisbider.com> wrote:
> Ville - you are making my points!

No I'm not, you continue to deliberately misunderstand what I'm
saying, and claiming
that I'm making your points seriously misrepresents what I said.

> Firstly: Yes! I am prone to make colorful remarks. But how level-headed I
> am, and how good an idea I bring, are two independent concepts! Ideas need
> to be accepted from anyone, level-headed or not, because they are not that

Ideas don't need to be accepted from anyone. Ideas can be discussed, accepting
them is a completely different matter.

> person's ideas, they are ideas, and they have merit regardless of who voiced
> them. This is why it's wrong to require that the person who brings the idea
> also represents it in meeting. Ideas need to be brought by anyone, but then

No such requirement has ever been made. We have never ever required
that a proposal author presents his proposal himself, it's always been ok
to find a champion to present a proposal instead of the author.

> So: you're not set up to take ideas from people who can't represent them
> well.

Correct - we are not mindreaders, so if nobody can explain a proposal, there's
little reason that it should be accepted.

> Secondly: Yes! I lack the knowledge to explain, in language terms, how
> moving an object with memcpy is properly described. I can explain it in
> intuitive terms, but this isn't the answer you want. The answer you want is
> in terms of the existing language spec, and here I completely lack the
> background.

I want that explanation in terms that make sense, and I most certainly
don't want it in terms that invent new meaning for the terms in the standard.
If "lifetime" is a term non-intuitive to you, I can't help you there.
If you don't
even understand the lifetime concerns of destructive move, it's about time
you let other people already working on destructive move handle it, because
they can understand those concerns.

> Are you seeing, or are you not seeing, that if N libraries do the same thing
> X, and this works under the language as-is, but it's undefined according to
> specification - that the problem is in the specification, not in the use?

That is far from obvious, and is under active dispute.

> Are you seeing that someone who points this out is not necessarily in a
> position to resolve the issue with the specification; but that this doesn't
> mean that the issue should not be resolved?

In other words, you're not pointing out anything the authors of the destructive
move proposals don't already know, so you're just making pointless noise?

> Now, consider this:
> Why should it be possible for me to come to your mailing list, and unload my
> ideas on you free of charge, no matter whether anyone likes, or will accept,
> any of my proposals?

I don't know what you refer to by "your mailing list", but there are reasons
why not just any random idea-generator is welcomed on the committee-internal
mailing list. You have provided an ample example why that is necessary.

> Why should I not have to pay, for example, $100, or $200, to have a
> suggestion be reviewed and considered, by someone in the standards process?

There's no requirement to pay anyone anything. If you wish to seek paid help,
this is not the place.

> Why do I have to become part of the standards process; to seriously invest
> myself in it; when all I want is to float an idea, and have it be properly
> represented?

"Properly represented"? You want things to just happen, without doing any work?

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On Sunday, August 2, 2015 at 3:56:38 PM UTC+1, Howard Hinnant wrote:
>
> On Aug 2, 2015, at 6:28 AM, Magnus Fromreide <ma...@lysator.liu.se=20
> <javascript:>> wrote:=20
> >=20
> > Does anybody know why WG14/N1085 didn't move forward or where that=20
> > paper ended up?=20
> >=20
> > http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n1085.htm=20
> <http://www.google.com/url?q=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.open-std.org%2Fjtc1%2Fsc2=
2%2Fwg14%2Fwww%2Fdocs%2Fn1085.htm&sa=3DD&sntz=3D1&usg=3DAFQjCNGC-c-VCt6ULuh=
jydte7_UA3MsBhg>=20
> >=20
>
> I did not attend WG14 personally to present this paper.  The feedback I=
=20
> got was that there was insufficient interest to move forward with it.  I.=
e.=20
> no one present was excited enough about it to do the hard work, and even =
I,=20
> the author, wasn=E2=80=99t willing to shell out the vacation time and tra=
vel=20
> expense to make it happen.=20
>
> I.e. good ideas are often not enough by themselves.  Someone has to be=20
> willing to champion it in person.  It takes time and money (the money for=
=20
> travel, nothing nefarious).=20
>
>
Even without WG14 buy-in, it might be worthwhile adding it to C++ under the=
=20
std namespace. The nice thing about the try_realloc interface is that it is=
=20
best effort. A trivial implementation that always returns false would be=20
conforming and on systems where the C++ implementors can influence the C=20
standard library, a better implementation is possible. With time and=20
implementation experience, the interface might finally make into C. The=20
actual interface proposed by n1085 is more complicated, but from a cursory=
=20
look most entry points still seem to be best effort and allow trivial=20
implementations. The only issue seems to be sizeof_alloc which could be=20
dropped.

-- gpd

--=20

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On Sunday, August 2, 2015 at 3:56:38 PM UTC+1, Howard Hinnant wrote:<blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-lef=
t: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">On Aug 2, 2015, at 6:28 AM, Magnus Fr=
omreide &lt;<a href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto=
=3D"aysn3o5KDwAJ" rel=3D"nofollow" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;javascri=
pt:&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;javascript:&#39;;return =
true;">ma...@lysator.liu.se</a>&gt; wrote:
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; Does anybody know why WG14/N1085 didn&#39;t move forward or where =
that
<br>&gt; paper ended up?
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; <a href=3D"http://www.google.com/url?q=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.open-std=
..org%2Fjtc1%2Fsc22%2Fwg14%2Fwww%2Fdocs%2Fn1085.htm&amp;sa=3DD&amp;sntz=3D1&=
amp;usg=3DAFQjCNGC-c-VCt6ULuhjydte7_UA3MsBhg" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofo=
llow" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A=
%2F%2Fwww.open-std.org%2Fjtc1%2Fsc22%2Fwg14%2Fwww%2Fdocs%2Fn1085.htm\46sa\7=
5D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGC-c-VCt6ULuhjydte7_UA3MsBhg&#39;;return true;=
" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fww=
w.open-std.org%2Fjtc1%2Fsc22%2Fwg14%2Fwww%2Fdocs%2Fn1085.htm\46sa\75D\46snt=
z\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGC-c-VCt6ULuhjydte7_UA3MsBhg&#39;;return true;">http:/=
/www.open-std.org/jtc1/<wbr>sc22/wg14/www/docs/n1085.htm</a>
<br>&gt;=20
<br>
<br>I did not attend WG14 personally to present this paper. =C2=A0The feedb=
ack I got was that there was insufficient interest to move forward with it.=
 =C2=A0I.e. no one present was excited enough about it to do the hard work,=
 and even I, the author, wasn=E2=80=99t willing to shell out the vacation t=
ime and travel expense to make it happen.
<br>
<br>I.e. good ideas are often not enough by themselves. =C2=A0Someone has t=
o be willing to champion it in person. =C2=A0It takes time and money (the m=
oney for travel, nothing nefarious).
<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br>Even without WG14 buy-in, it might be worthwhile =
adding it to C++ under the std namespace. The nice thing about the try_real=
loc interface is that it is best effort. A trivial implementation that alwa=
ys returns false would be conforming and on systems where the C++ implement=
ors can influence the C standard library, a better implementation is possib=
le. With time and implementation experience, the interface might finally ma=
ke into C. The actual interface proposed by n1085 is more complicated, but =
from a cursory look most entry points still seem to be best effort and allo=
w trivial implementations. The only issue seems to be sizeof_alloc which co=
uld be dropped.<br><br>-- gpd<br></div><br>

<p></p>

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.

On 4 August 2015 at 16:10, Giovanni Piero Deretta <gpderetta@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n1085.htm
> Even without WG14 buy-in, it might be worthwhile adding it to C++ under the
> std namespace. The nice thing about the try_realloc interface is that it is


Agreed, WG14 is sometimes so extension-averse that it's fairly difficult to move
things forward if it's considered a must to have their buy-in.

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On Tuesday 04 August 2015 02:31:04 Bengt Gustafsson wrote:
> Going back to the original subject I would like to see an investigation
> into how often such a realloc_in_place would actually be possible. Usually
> mallocs try to pack blocks end to end so the chance that you can get more
> memory without
> moving the data is probably slim. Reducing the size of course works but
> could leave the heap in a much more fragmented state.

Without actually doing a test, I imagine there's one particular case where
realloc-in-place would succeed: when you're appending to a container in a
loop. Usually that's going to be the last block you allocated, so the
reallocation succeeds without changing the pointer address.

It's also true that regular realloc() would have succeeded, but the point here
is that the container can use try_realloc() or equivalent even for non-
relocatable objects.

There's a possible pathological case here, though: when the loop that appends
also allocates memory for each element. If they do, then the reallocation will
usually fail, requiring a regular malloc + copy, which is actually worse for
fragmentation...
--
Thiago Macieira - thiago (AT) macieira.info - thiago (AT) kde.org
   Software Architect - Intel Open Source Technology Center
      PGP/GPG: 0x6EF45358; fingerprint:
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On 2015-08-03 21:44, isocppgroup@denisbider.com wrote:
> We're using 1980s, 1990s era technology! Right now, we're communicating
> through... Google Groups! A most basic, free online service!
>
> Nothing we're doing here; nothing in the way we communicate; could not have
> been done on Usenet, or on a Bulletin Board System in the 1980s.

Funny you should put it that way... ;-) *You* may be using Google's
atrocious web interface. *I'm* using NNTP via gmane.org, because NNTP is
still the best way to deal with high-volume mailing lists. And mailing
lists are a de-facto standard for online collaboration. They're
effective, easy to use, and open access. A specialized system *might* be
more effective in some ways, but at the cost of raising the bar to
entry; the very thing you are ranting against! (But see also comments
below.)

If you don't believe me, just take a look at how many lists gmane.org
carries. It's a *lot*, and they're all software related.

New isn't *always* better... though I have to be honest, I'd also prefer
if there was the possibility to make a proposal without going to a
week-long meeting in a remote location.

Also, responding to a comment you made on your blog:

> I think charging for proposals actually sounds like a really good
> idea. Why should I be able to litter a working group mailing list
> with whatever weird proposal I might fancy, that no one else likes,
> or is going to accept?

This is effectively what requiring people to present proposals face to
face *does*. If you've been around the list (or any open internet forum)
for a while, you'll notice that one problem with truly open, low-or-zero
entry cost forums is that they *do* attract all sorts of people, from
the serious to the outrageous. Some of the benefit of a higher entry
cost venue is that it *does* weed out people that aren't serious, or at
least willing to make the effort to be taken seriously.

What would probably help is to have multiple levels of participation
with increasing "cost of entry", with changes happening only at the
highest level, but with more upwards filtration from the lower levels,
e.g. people at the higher levels who cherry pick valuable suggestions
from the lower levels and champion them. (The problem, of course, is
that there isn't enough manpower at the top; everyone is already
overloaded with their own stuff and rarely has time to take on anything
else.)

--
Matthew

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On Tuesday 04 August 2015 06:10:09 Giovanni Piero Deretta wrote:
> Even without WG14 buy-in, it might be worthwhile adding it to C++ under the
> std namespace. The nice thing about the try_realloc interface is that it is
> best effort. A trivial implementation that always returns false would be
> conforming and on systems where the C++ implementors can influence the C
> standard library, a better implementation is possible. With time and
> implementation experience, the interface might finally make into C. The
> actual interface proposed by n1085 is more complicated, but from a cursory
> look most entry points still seem to be best effort and allow trivial
> implementations. The only issue seems to be sizeof_alloc which could be
> dropped.

Agreed. I'd miss sizeof_alloc() though, since most containers today end up
double-booking that fact in the allocated block itself. But it's also possible
that some implementations don't keep a size at all, in which case it's not
double-booking...

One thing I'd ask, though: please be sure to keep the alignment requirements
in the API.
--
Thiago Macieira - thiago (AT) macieira.info - thiago (AT) kde.org
   Software Architect - Intel Open Source Technology Center
      PGP/GPG: 0x6EF45358; fingerprint:
      E067 918B B660 DBD1 105C  966C 33F5 F005 6EF4 5358

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On 2015-08-04 05:31, Bengt Gustafsson wrote:
> On the meta-discussion I find it very hard to find what has been suggeste=
d=20
> before and even more so what the problems were with those suggestions. Th=
is=20
> of course increases the number of times that the same (possibly stupid)=
=20
> suggestions recur which annoys those who have already dismissed similar=
=20
> suggestions for good reasons.

That's almost exactly what I was thinking. There are lists of actual
proposals that somewhat cover this=C2=B9 (i.e. the ones Ville noted), but I=
'm
not sure there is anywhere maintained a list of ideas that people want
to see (which, ideally, would include actual proposals as well as things
that haven't made it that far) along with comments whether there is room
for growing them into official proposals or if they've been shot down hard.

It would be great if there was a maintained list (maybe a wiki?) of
ideas, cross referenced with applicable discussions, so that one could
look for ideas that they may wish to champion, or shouldn't touch, or
whatnot.

(=C2=B9 Among other things, I find these lists very difficult to read. Most=
ly
because there is simply too much information with inadequate summation,
but partly because they are literally illegible. While not specifying
colors isn't necessarily a bad thing (and fortunately, these don't
engage in the cardinal sin of specifying exactly one of foreground or
background color), changes specify bright background colors but do NOT
specify a foreground color. My default foreground color is near white.
Thus, it is extremely difficult to read changes without selecting the
text in order to override the colors. One fix, that doesn't lose the
benefit of using the reader's preferred colors otherwise, is to specify
the background as e.g. rgb(255, 0, 0, 0.2).)

> I think this is a pity as this is where statistics about what is
> really concerning the programmers out there can be collected.

See my previous comment in this thread. While I agree that in the ideal
case, this would be tremendously valuable, I'd be concerned as to how
unbiased anything like an open voting mechanism would be. (Maybe if
voting required registration that included [industry] demographic
information, e.g. gaming, embedded, financial...)

--=20
Matthew

--=20

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On 2015-08-04 08:53, Ville Voutilainen wrote:
> On 4 August 2015 at 14:49,  <isocppgroup@denisbider.com> wrote:
>> Why do I have to become part of the standards process; to seriously invest
>> myself in it; when all I want is to float an idea, and have it be properly
>> represented?
>
> "Properly represented"? You want things to just happen, without doing any work?

Define "work". If you mean it in the absolute general sense of any sort
of effort at all, regardless of relevance to the C++ standards process,
than I am confident that's not what Denis means. If you mean work
directly related to a C++ proposal... then... yes!

And what's wrong with that? This is the ENTIRE BASIS of economics, if
not civilization. If everyone that wanted something had to directly
accomplish it themselves, we'd be no different from wild cats... strict
hunter-gatherers with no socialization. The reason we HAVE economy,
society, and civilization is because we exchange goods and services and
specialize work.

Note that Denis multiple times suggested willingness to exchange effort
for money. He's not asking for "something for nothing", he's asking for
a system that allows non-experts to have a way to contribute by paying
in some currency other than having to personally become language experts
and first tier participants in the committee. (Hence the court analogy,
which I think is apt.)

--
Matthew

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On 4 August 2015 at 18:40, Matthew Woehlke <mwoehlke.floss@gmail.com> wrote:
>> "Properly represented"? You want things to just happen, without doing any work?
> Define "work". If you mean it in the absolute general sense of any sort
> of effort at all, regardless of relevance to the C++ standards process,
> than I am confident that's not what Denis means. If you mean work
> directly related to a C++ proposal... then... yes!

Fine, then everybody should understand that mere wanting of things to happen
rarely leads into any fruition.

> Note that Denis multiple times suggested willingness to exchange effort
> for money. He's not asking for "something for nothing", he's asking for

Ah, yes, he started talking about that after his other falsehoods were
dismissed.

> a system that allows non-experts to have a way to contribute by paying
> in some currency other than having to personally become language experts
> and first tier participants in the committee. (Hence the court analogy,
> which I think is apt.)

Feel free to use http://careers.stackoverflow.com/jobs/tag/c++
for that. Or sponsor the C++ Foundation, they provide financial assistance
for paper authors for important papers. Probably not specifically for personal
pet peeves, because voting by currency on what would get discussed and/or
adopted is going to meet very justified opposition.

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I agree. Standardization should probably take place online only.

On Sunday, August 2, 2015 at 3:20:11 PM UTC-4, denis bider wrote:
>
> This highlights the whole problem of moving the language forward in face=
=20
> to face meetings.
>
> This wastes resources on travel, excludes people who could contribute, an=
d=20
> silences worthwhile ideas who don't happen to have a champion with=20
> disposable time and money.
>
> It further corrupts the process by comingling standardization with=20
> socializing, leading to an inner clique who know each other from years of=
=20
> face to face meetings, further excluding outsiders.
>
> This is an inefficient process that became unnecessary around the year=20
> 2000. Yet it continues to persist, most likely because most people who=20
> would vote to change it enjoy being paid by their companies to socialize=
=20
> and travel.
>
> This is fairly disgusting and must be ended.
>
> Explore new countries on your own time, people.
>
>
> On Sunday, August 2, 2015 at 8:56:38 AM UTC-6, Howard Hinnant wrote:
>
>> On Aug 2, 2015, at 6:28 AM, Magnus Fromreide <ma...@lysator.liu.se>=20
>> wrote:=20
>> >=20
>> > Does anybody know why WG14/N1085 didn't move forward or where that=20
>> > paper ended up?=20
>> >=20
>> > http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n1085.htm=20
>> >=20
>>
>> I did not attend WG14 personally to present this paper.  The feedback I=
=20
>> got was that there was insufficient interest to move forward with it.  I=
..e.=20
>> no one present was excited enough about it to do the hard work, and even=
 I,=20
>> the author, wasn=E2=80=99t willing to shell out the vacation time and tr=
avel=20
>> expense to make it happen.=20
>>
>> I.e. good ideas are often not enough by themselves.  Someone has to be=
=20
>> willing to champion it in person.  It takes time and money (the money fo=
r=20
>> travel, nothing nefarious).=20
>>
>> Howard=20
>>
>>

--=20

---=20
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<div dir=3D"ltr">I agree. Standardization should probably take place online=
 only.<br><br>On Sunday, August 2, 2015 at 3:20:11 PM UTC-4, denis bider wr=
ote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex=
;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>This=
 highlights the whole problem of moving the language forward in face to fac=
e meetings.</div><div><br></div><div>This wastes resources on travel, exclu=
des people who could contribute, and silences worthwhile ideas who don&#39;=
t happen to have a champion with disposable time and money.</div><div><br><=
/div><div>It=C2=A0further corrupts the process by comingling standardizatio=
n with socializing, leading to an inner clique who know each other from yea=
rs of face to face meetings, further excluding outsiders.</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>This is an inefficient process that became unnecessary around the y=
ear 2000. Yet it continues to persist, most likely because most people who =
would vote to change it enjoy being paid by their companies to socialize an=
d travel.</div><div><br></div><div>This is fairly disgusting and must be en=
ded.</div><div><br></div><div>Explore new countries on your own time, peopl=
e.</div><div><br><br>On Sunday, August 2, 2015 at 8:56:38 AM UTC-6, Howard =
Hinnant wrote:</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-lef=
t-width:1px;border-left-style:solid">On Aug 2, 2015, at 6:28 AM, Magnus Fro=
mreide &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow">ma...@lysator.liu.se</a>&gt; wrote:
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; Does anybody know why WG14/N1085 didn&#39;t move forward or where =
that
<br>&gt; paper ended up?
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; <a href=3D"http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n1085.h=
tm" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;http=
://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.open-std.org%2Fjtc1%2Fsc22%2Fwg1=
4%2Fwww%2Fdocs%2Fn1085.htm\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGC-c-VCt6ULuh=
jydte7_UA3MsBhg&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;http://www.g=
oogle.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.open-std.org%2Fjtc1%2Fsc22%2Fwg14%2Fwww%=
2Fdocs%2Fn1085.htm\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGC-c-VCt6ULuhjydte7_U=
A3MsBhg&#39;;return true;">http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/<wbr>sc22/wg14/www/=
docs/n1085.htm</a>
<br>&gt;=20
<br>
<br>I did not attend WG14 personally to present this paper. =C2=A0The feedb=
ack I got was that there was insufficient interest to move forward with it.=
 =C2=A0I.e. no one present was excited enough about it to do the hard work,=
 and even I, the author, wasn=E2=80=99t willing to shell out the vacation t=
ime and travel expense to make it happen.
<br>
<br>I.e. good ideas are often not enough by themselves. =C2=A0Someone has t=
o be willing to champion it in person. =C2=A0It takes time and money (the m=
oney for travel, nothing nefarious).
<br>
<br>Howard
<br>
<br></blockquote></div></blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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On Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 11:14:05 AM UTC-4, Thiago Macieira wrote:
>
> On Tuesday 04 August 2015 06:10:09 Giovanni Piero Deretta wrote:
> > Even without WG14 buy-in, it might be worthwhile adding it to C++ under
> the
> > std namespace. The nice thing about the try_realloc interface is that it
> is
> > best effort. A trivial implementation that always returns false would be
> > conforming and on systems where the C++ implementors can influence the C
> > standard library, a better implementation is possible. With time and
> > implementation experience, the interface might finally make into C. The
> > actual interface proposed by n1085 is more complicated, but from a
> cursory
> > look most entry points still seem to be best effort and allow trivial
> > implementations. The only issue seems to be sizeof_alloc which could be
> > dropped.
>
> Agreed. I'd miss sizeof_alloc() though, since most containers today end up
> double-booking that fact in the allocated block itself. But it's also
> possible
> that some implementations don't keep a size at all, in which case it's not
> double-booking...
>
> One thing I'd ask, though: please be sure to keep the alignment
> requirements
> in the API.
>

I'm not sure sizeof_alloc() is really that useful in practice outside of
heap debugging. Even if sizeof_alloc() was guaranteed to exist, I imagine
sizeof_alloc() could be slow. Possibly requiring acquiring a lock or at
least atomic memory barriers.  Even if you could reduce sizeof(vector) by
1/3 by not storing the capacity is it worth pessimizing push_back() and
insert()?

try_realloc() keeps coming up over and over again. In Alexandrescu's
allocator talk at cppcon 2015 he also presented an allocator interface with
this feature.

Another alternative interface which would be harder to use but maybe more
efficient is a kind of realloc which either resizes the buffer and returns
it or returns a newly allocated buffer for you the caller to perform the
moves and free the old one yourself. A templated renew<T>() kind of wrapper
in the C++ library can handle the move construction / exception safety /
free() dance on top of the untyped allocator primitive. The reason it can
be faster is that try_realloc() == false followed by a malloc() means you
need to enter the allocator subsystem twice, possibly grabbing locks twice
and doing other search and initialization that could be avoided with 1
entry point. WIth that overhead, adding try_realloc() support to vector
could actually become a pessimization instead of a optimization for
workloads where the inplace resize cannot be triggered often.

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<br><br>On Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 11:14:05 AM UTC-4, Thiago Macieira wr=
ote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex=
;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">On Tuesday 04 August 2015 =
06:10:09 Giovanni Piero Deretta wrote:
<br>&gt; Even without WG14 buy-in, it might be worthwhile adding it to C++ =
under the=20
<br>&gt; std namespace. The nice thing about the try_realloc interface is t=
hat it is
<br>&gt; best effort. A trivial implementation that always returns false wo=
uld be
<br>&gt; conforming and on systems where the C++ implementors can influence=
 the C
<br>&gt; standard library, a better implementation is possible. With time a=
nd
<br>&gt; implementation experience, the interface might finally make into C=
.. The
<br>&gt; actual interface proposed by n1085 is more complicated, but from a=
 cursory
<br>&gt; look most entry points still seem to be best effort and allow triv=
ial
<br>&gt; implementations. The only issue seems to be sizeof_alloc which cou=
ld be
<br>&gt; dropped.
<br>
<br>Agreed. I&#39;d miss sizeof_alloc() though, since most containers today=
 end up=20
<br>double-booking that fact in the allocated block itself. But it&#39;s al=
so possible=20
<br>that some implementations don&#39;t keep a size at all, in which case i=
t&#39;s not=20
<br>double-booking...
<br>
<br>One thing I&#39;d ask, though: please be sure to keep the alignment req=
uirements=20
<br>in the API.
<br></blockquote><div><br>I&#39;m not sure sizeof_alloc() is really that us=
eful in practice outside of heap debugging. Even if sizeof_alloc() was guar=
anteed to exist, I imagine sizeof_alloc() could be slow. Possibly requiring=
 acquiring a lock or at least atomic memory barriers.=C2=A0 Even if you cou=
ld reduce sizeof(vector) by 1/3 by not storing the capacity is it worth pes=
simizing push_back() and insert()?<br><br>try_realloc() keeps coming up ove=
r and over again. In Alexandrescu&#39;s allocator talk at cppcon 2015 he al=
so presented an allocator interface with this feature. <br><br>Another alte=
rnative interface which would be harder to use but maybe more efficient is =
a kind of realloc which either resizes the buffer and returns it or returns=
 a newly allocated buffer for you the caller to perform the moves and free =
the old one yourself. A templated renew&lt;T&gt;() kind of wrapper in the C=
++ library can handle the move construction / exception safety / free() dan=
ce on top of the untyped allocator primitive. The reason it can be faster i=
s that try_realloc() =3D=3D false followed by a malloc() means you need to =
enter the allocator subsystem twice, possibly grabbing locks twice and doin=
g other search and initialization that could be avoided with 1 entry point.=
 WIth that overhead, adding try_realloc() support to vector could actually =
become a pessimization instead of a optimization for workloads where the in=
place resize cannot be triggered often.<br></div>

<p></p>

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On Saturday, October 17, 2015 at 5:48:29 PM UTC-4, olena.r...@gmail.com
wrote:
>
>
> Another alternative interface which would be harder to use but maybe more
> efficient is a kind of realloc which either resizes the buffer and returns
> it or returns a newly allocated buffer for you the caller to perform the
> moves and free the old one yourself. A templated renew<T>() kind of wrapper
> in the C++ library can handle the move construction / exception safety /
> free() dance on top of the untyped allocator primitive. The reason it can
> be faster is that try_realloc() == false followed by a malloc() means you
> need to enter the allocator subsystem twice, possibly grabbing locks twice
> and doing other search and initialization that could be avoided with 1
> entry point. WIth that overhead, adding try_realloc() support to vector
> could actually become a pessimization instead of a optimization for
> workloads where the inplace resize cannot be triggered often.
>

I'd also mention that most of the uses of inplace resize that exist today
usually involve a manually specified is_relocatable type trait and
realloc() being called under the hood. So the current benchmarks showing
speedups from realloc() depend on only 1 allocator call. In other words,
the current evidence for the benefit of supporting realloc() in C++ does
not account for the possible overhead of 2 calls into the memory system
required to implement reallocation in C++ using a try_realloc() and
malloc() approach.

There's probably enough desire for this feature to make this real, but
whoever wants to write the proposal and do the work will have to consider
these concerns. I would also recommend getting some domain experts help.
You can start by contacting the authors of the various malloc
implementations like dmalloc, jemalloc, etc..

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<br><br>On Saturday, October 17, 2015 at 5:48:29 PM UTC-4, olena.r...@gmail=
..com wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left=
: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><br><div>Another al=
ternative interface which would be harder to use but maybe more efficient i=
s a kind of realloc which either resizes the buffer and returns it or retur=
ns a newly allocated buffer for you the caller to perform the moves and fre=
e the old one yourself. A templated renew&lt;T&gt;() kind of wrapper in the=
 C++ library can handle the move construction / exception safety / free() d=
ance on top of the untyped allocator primitive. The reason it can be faster=
 is that try_realloc() =3D=3D false followed by a malloc() means you need t=
o enter the allocator subsystem twice, possibly grabbing locks twice and do=
ing other search and initialization that could be avoided with 1 entry poin=
t. WIth that overhead, adding try_realloc() support to vector could actuall=
y become a pessimization instead of a optimization for workloads where the =
inplace resize cannot be triggered often.<br></div></blockquote><div><br>I&=
#39;d also mention that most of the uses of inplace resize that exist today=
 usually involve a manually specified is_relocatable type trait and realloc=
() being called under the hood. So the current benchmarks showing speedups =
from realloc() depend on only 1 allocator call. In other words, the current=
 evidence for the benefit of supporting realloc() in C++ does not account f=
or the possible overhead of 2 calls into the memory system required to impl=
ement reallocation in C++ using a try_realloc() and malloc() approach.<br><=
br>There&#39;s probably enough desire for this feature to make this real, b=
ut whoever wants to write the proposal and do the work will have to conside=
r these concerns. I would also recommend getting some domain experts help. =
You can start by contacting the authors of the various malloc implementatio=
ns like dmalloc, jemalloc, etc..<br></div>

<p></p>

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