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Please find attached a rough incomplete 2-page draft entitled "Proposal of
Index-Based For Loop"

Preliminary thoughts appreciated.

Thanks,
Andrew.

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<div dir="ltr">Please find attached a rough incomplete 2-page draft entitled &quot;Proposal of Index-Based For Loop&quot;<div><br></div><div>Preliminary thoughts appreciated.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Andrew.</div><div><br></div></div>

<p></p>

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El 16/1/2016 6:38, "Andrew Tomazos" <andrewtomazos@gmail.com> escribi=C3=B3=
:
>
> Please find attached a rough incomplete 2-page draft entitled "Proposal
of Index-Based For Loop"
>
> Preliminary thoughts appreciated.

I would prefer a library facility for iterating over a numeric range
(preferably integral types) with steps support:

   for (auto i : std::numeric_range(4, 12, 2))
       stmt;

Where i will go from 4 to 12 stepping by 2 (the last argument, step, should
default to 1).

>
> Thanks,
> Andrew.
>
> --
>
> ---
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<p dir=3D"ltr"><br>
El 16/1/2016 6:38, &quot;Andrew Tomazos&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andrewt=
omazos@gmail.com">andrewtomazos@gmail.com</a>&gt; escribi=C3=B3:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Please find attached a rough incomplete 2-page draft entitled &quot;Pr=
oposal of Index-Based For Loop&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Preliminary thoughts appreciated.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">I would prefer a library facility for iterating over a numer=
ic range (preferably integral types) with steps support:</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0=C2=A0 for (auto i : std::numeric_range(4, 12, 2))<br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 stmt;</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Where i will go from 4 to 12 stepping by 2 (the last argumen=
t, step, should default to 1).<br></p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">&gt;<br>
&gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt; Andrew.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; -- <br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; --- <br>
&gt; You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro=
ups &quot;ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals&quot; group.<br>
&gt; To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send=
 an email to <a href=3D"mailto:std-proposals%2Bunsubscribe@isocpp.org">std-=
proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org</a>.<br>
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group/std-proposals/">https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/group/std-prop=
osals/</a>.<br>
</p>

<p></p>

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On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 11:05 AM, dgutson . <danielgutson@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> El 16/1/2016 6:38, "Andrew Tomazos" <andrewtomazos@gmail.com> escribi=C3=
=B3:
> >
> > Please find attached a rough incomplete 2-page draft entitled "Proposal
> of Index-Based For Loop"
> >
> > Preliminary thoughts appreciated.
>
> I would prefer a library facility for iterating over a numeric range
> (preferably integral types) with steps support:
>
>    for (auto i : std::numeric_range(4, 12, 2))
>        stmt;
>
You can already do this more tersely as follows:

  for (int i =3D 4; i < 12; i +=3D 2)

notice that this is shorter than:

  for (int i : std::numeric_range(4, 12, 2))

The premise of the proposal is that iterating over the specific "zero-based
index" range {0,1,2,...,N-1} is far more common in C and C++ than iterating
with a different starting point or different step.  (Similar to
std::make_index_sequence.)   We therefore propose a short-hand notation
specifically for that common use case, and leave the other less common use
cases up to the general for loop (as they are implemented now).

Admittedly I need to back up that claim with hard data.

> Where i will go from 4 to 12 stepping by 2 (the last argument, step,
> should default to 1).
>
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Andrew.
> >
> > --
> >
> > ---
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org.
> > To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org.
> > Visit this group at
> https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/group/std-proposals/.
>
> --
>
> ---
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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> email to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org.
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>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 11:05 AM, dgutson . <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:danielgutson@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">danielgutson@gmail.c=
om</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,20=
4);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D""><p dir=3D"ltr=
"><br>
El 16/1/2016 6:38, &quot;Andrew Tomazos&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andrewt=
omazos@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">andrewtomazos@gmail.com</a>&gt; escribi=
=C3=B3:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Please find attached a rough incomplete 2-page draft entitled &quot;Pr=
oposal of Index-Based For Loop&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Preliminary thoughts appreciated.</p>
</span><p dir=3D"ltr">I would prefer a library facility for iterating over =
a numeric range (preferably integral types) with steps support:</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0=C2=A0 for (auto i : std::numeric_range(4, 12, 2))<br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 stmt;</p></blockquote><div>You can alr=
eady do this more tersely as follows:</div><div><br></div><div><font face=
=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 for (int i =3D 4; i &lt; 12; i +=3D 2)</fo=
nt></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace"><br></font></div><div><fo=
nt face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif">notice that this is shorter than:<=
/font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace"><br></font></div><div>=
<font face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 for (int i : std::numeric_range(=
4, 12, 2))</font></div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>The premise of the proposal is=
 that iterating over the specific &quot;zero-based index&quot; range {0,1,2=
,...,N-1} is far more common in C and C++ than iterating with a different s=
tarting point or different step. =C2=A0(Similar to std::make_index_sequence=
..) =C2=A0 We therefore propose a short-hand notation specifically for that =
common use case, and leave the other less common use cases up to the genera=
l for loop (as they are implemented now).</div><div><br></div><div>Admitted=
ly I need to back up that claim with hard data.</div><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-=
left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<p dir=3D"ltr">Where i will go from 4 to 12 stepping by 2 (the last argumen=
t, step, should default to 1).<br></p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">&gt;<br>
&gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt; Andrew.<span class=3D""><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; -- <br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; --- <br>
&gt; You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro=
ups &quot;ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals&quot; group.<br>
&gt; To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send=
 an email to <a href=3D"mailto:std-proposals%2Bunsubscribe@isocpp.org" targ=
et=3D"_blank">std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org</a>.<br>
&gt; To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:std-proposals@i=
socpp.org" target=3D"_blank">std-proposals@isocpp.org</a>.<br>
&gt; Visit this group at <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/=
group/std-proposals/" target=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.=
org/group/std-proposals/</a>.<br>
</font></span></p><span class=3D""><font color=3D"#888888">

<p></p>

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</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

<p></p>

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El 16/1/2016 7:20, "Andrew Tomazos" <andrewtomazos@gmail.com> escribi=C3=B3=
:
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 11:05 AM, dgutson . <danielgutson@gmail.com>
wrote:
>>
>>
>> El 16/1/2016 6:38, "Andrew Tomazos" <andrewtomazos@gmail.com> escribi=C3=
=B3:
>> >
>> > Please find attached a rough incomplete 2-page draft entitled
"Proposal of Index-Based For Loop"
>> >
>> > Preliminary thoughts appreciated.
>>
>> I would prefer a library facility for iterating over a numeric range
(preferably integral types) with steps support:
>>
>>    for (auto i : std::numeric_range(4, 12, 2))
>>        stmt;
>
> You can already do this more tersely as follows:
>
>   for (int i =3D 4; i < 12; i +=3D 2)
>
> notice that this is shorter than:
>
>   for (int i : std::numeric_range(4, 12, 2))
>

But this facility has the following advantages:

   1) the range can be returned by a function:
       for(auto i : f() )

   2) convenient helpers can be provided:
       for (auto i : upto(N)) // replaces yor proposal
       for (auto i : downto(-10)) // 0 to -9

    3) the numeric_range can automatically determine the step as -1 if
start > end


> The premise of the proposal is that iterating over the specific
"zero-based index" range {0,1,2,...,N-1} is far more common in C and C++
than iterating with a different starting point or different step.  (Similar
to std::make_index_sequence.)   We therefore propose a short-hand notation
specifically for that common use case, and leave the other less common use
cases up to the general for loop (as they are implemented now).
>
> Admittedly I need to back up that claim with hard data.
>>
>> Where i will go from 4 to 12 stepping by 2 (the last argument, step,
should default to 1).
>>
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> > Andrew.
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> > ---
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
an email to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org.
>> > To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org.
>> > Visit this group at
https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/group/std-proposals/.
>>
>> --
>>
>> ---
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
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an email to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org.
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https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/group/std-proposals/.
>
>
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>
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<p dir=3D"ltr"><br>
El 16/1/2016 7:20, &quot;Andrew Tomazos&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andrewt=
omazos@gmail.com">andrewtomazos@gmail.com</a>&gt; escribi=C3=B3:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 11:05 AM, dgutson . &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dani=
elgutson@gmail.com">danielgutson@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; El 16/1/2016 6:38, &quot;Andrew Tomazos&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:andrewtomazos@gmail.com">andrewtomazos@gmail.com</a>&gt; escribi=C3=B3:<b=
r>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Please find attached a rough incomplete 2-page draft entitled=
 &quot;Proposal of Index-Based For Loop&quot;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Preliminary thoughts appreciated.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I would prefer a library facility for iterating over a numeric ran=
ge (preferably integral types) with steps support:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; =C2=A0=C2=A0 for (auto i : std::numeric_range(4, 12, 2))<br>
&gt;&gt; =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 stmt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; You can already do this more tersely as follows:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 for (int i =3D 4; i &lt; 12; i +=3D 2)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; notice that this is shorter than:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 for (int i : std::numeric_range(4, 12, 2))<br>
&gt; =C2=A0</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">But this facility has the following advantages:</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0=C2=A0 1) the range can be returned by a function:<br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 for(auto i : f() )</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0=C2=A0 2) convenient helpers can be provided:<br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 for (auto i : upto(N)) // replaces yor=
 proposal<br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 for (auto i : downto(-10)) // 0 to -9<=
/p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 3) the numeric_range can automatically de=
termine the step as -1 if start &gt; end<br><br><br></p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">&gt; The premise of the proposal is that iterating over the =
specific &quot;zero-based index&quot; range {0,1,2,...,N-1} is far more com=
mon in C and C++ than iterating with a different starting point or differen=
t step. =C2=A0(Similar to std::make_index_sequence.) =C2=A0 We therefore pr=
opose a short-hand notation specifically for that common use case, and leav=
e the other less common use cases up to the general for loop (as they are i=
mplemented now).<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Admittedly I need to back up that claim with hard data.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Where i will go from 4 to 12 stepping by 2 (the last argument, ste=
p, should default to 1).<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Andrew.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; -- <br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; --- <br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; You received this message because you are subscribed to the G=
oogle Groups &quot;ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals&quot; group.<br>
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 it, send an email to <a href=3D"mailto:std-proposals%2Bunsubscribe@isocpp.=
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ocpp.org/group/std-proposals/">https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/group=
/std-proposals/</a>.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; -- <br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
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&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; -- <br>
&gt;<br>
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On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 11:35 AM, dgutson . <danielgutson@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> El 16/1/2016 7:20, "Andrew Tomazos" <andrewtomazos@gmail.com> escribi=C3=
=B3:
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 11:05 AM, dgutson . <danielgutson@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> El 16/1/2016 6:38, "Andrew Tomazos" <andrewtomazos@gmail.com> escribi=
=C3=B3:
> >> >
> >> > Please find attached a rough incomplete 2-page draft entitled
> "Proposal of Index-Based For Loop"
> >> >
> >> > Preliminary thoughts appreciated.
> >>
> >> I would prefer a library facility for iterating over a numeric range
> (preferably integral types) with steps support:
> >>
> >>    for (auto i : std::numeric_range(4, 12, 2))
> >>        stmt;
> >
> > You can already do this more tersely as follows:
> >
> >   for (int i =3D 4; i < 12; i +=3D 2)
> >
> > notice that this is shorter than:
> >
> >   for (int i : std::numeric_range(4, 12, 2))
> >
>
> But this facility has the following advantages:
>
>    1) the range can be returned by a function:
>        for(auto i : f() )
>
   2) convenient helpers can be provided:
>        for (auto i : upto(N)) // replaces yor proposal
>        for (auto i : downto(-10)) // 0 to -9
>
>     3) the numeric_range can automatically determine the step as -1 if
> start > end
>
Don't get me wrong, I think a std::numeric_range type is a good idea and
should be part of the ranges proposals/initiative.  It is not mutually
exclusive with this proposal.

What we are trying to do with this proposal is provide a short-hand for a
specific very common pattern of code that occurs in existing practice.

You are correct this could easily be implemented as a library feature:

  for (auto i : std::upto(N))

However as a core feature it is more compact:

  for (auto i : N)

My claim is that this specific use case is so common, that it warrants its
own terse core feature over the more verbose library solution.


>
> > The premise of the proposal is that iterating over the specific
> "zero-based index" range {0,1,2,...,N-1} is far more common in C and C++
> than iterating with a different starting point or different step.  (Simil=
ar
> to std::make_index_sequence.)   We therefore propose a short-hand notatio=
n
> specifically for that common use case, and leave the other less common us=
e
> cases up to the general for loop (as they are implemented now).
> >
> > Admittedly I need to back up that claim with hard data.
> >>
> >> Where i will go from 4 to 12 stepping by 2 (the last argument, step,
> should default to 1).
> >>
> >> >
> >> > Thanks,
> >> > Andrew.
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> >
> >> > ---
> >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
> >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
> send an email to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org.
> >> > To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org.
> >> > Visit this group at
> https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/group/std-proposals/.
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >> ---
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org.
> >> To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org.
> >> Visit this group at
> https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/group/std-proposals/.
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > ---
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org.
> > To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org.
> > Visit this group at
> https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/group/std-proposals/.
>
> --
>
> ---
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 11:35 AM, dgutson . <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:danielgutson@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">danielgutson@gmail.c=
om</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,20=
4);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D""><p dir=3D"ltr=
"><br>
El 16/1/2016 7:20, &quot;Andrew Tomazos&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andrewt=
omazos@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">andrewtomazos@gmail.com</a>&gt; escribi=
=C3=B3:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 11:05 AM, dgutson . &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dani=
elgutson@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">danielgutson@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:=
<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; El 16/1/2016 6:38, &quot;Andrew Tomazos&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:andrewtomazos@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">andrewtomazos@gmail.com</a>&gt=
; escribi=C3=B3:<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Please find attached a rough incomplete 2-page draft entitled=
 &quot;Proposal of Index-Based For Loop&quot;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Preliminary thoughts appreciated.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I would prefer a library facility for iterating over a numeric ran=
ge (preferably integral types) with steps support:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; =C2=A0=C2=A0 for (auto i : std::numeric_range(4, 12, 2))<br>
&gt;&gt; =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 stmt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; You can already do this more tersely as follows:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 for (int i =3D 4; i &lt; 12; i +=3D 2)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; notice that this is shorter than:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 for (int i : std::numeric_range(4, 12, 2))<br>
&gt; =C2=A0</p>
</span><p dir=3D"ltr">But this facility has the following advantages:</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0=C2=A0 1) the range can be returned by a function:<br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 for(auto i : f() )</p></blockquote><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-lef=
t-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex">
<p dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0=C2=A0 2) convenient helpers can be provided:<br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 for (auto i : upto(N)) // replaces yor=
 proposal<br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 for (auto i : downto(-10)) // 0 to -9<=
/p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 3) the numeric_range can automatically de=
termine the step as -1 if start &gt; end</p></blockquote><div>Don&#39;t get=
 me wrong, I think a std::numeric_range type is a good idea and should be p=
art of the ranges proposals/initiative.=C2=A0 It is not mutually exclusive =
with this proposal.</div><div><br></div><div>What we are trying to do with =
this proposal is provide a short-hand for a specific very common pattern of=
 code that occurs in existing practice.</div><div><br></div><div>You are co=
rrect this could easily be implemented as a library feature:</div><div><br>=
</div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 for (auto i : std::up=
to(N))<br></font></div><div><br></div><div>However as a core feature it is =
more compact:</div><div><br></div><div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monosp=
ace">=C2=A0 for (auto i : N)<br></font></div></div><div><br></div><div>My c=
laim is that this specific use case is so common, that it warrants its own =
terse core feature over the more verbose library solution.</div><div>=C2=A0=
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;b=
order-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:s=
olid;padding-left:1ex"><p dir=3D"ltr"><br></p><div class=3D""><div class=3D=
"h5">
<p dir=3D"ltr">&gt; The premise of the proposal is that iterating over the =
specific &quot;zero-based index&quot; range {0,1,2,...,N-1} is far more com=
mon in C and C++ than iterating with a different starting point or differen=
t step. =C2=A0(Similar to std::make_index_sequence.) =C2=A0 We therefore pr=
opose a short-hand notation specifically for that common use case, and leav=
e the other less common use cases up to the general for loop (as they are i=
mplemented now).<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Admittedly I need to back up that claim with hard data.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Where i will go from 4 to 12 stepping by 2 (the last argument, ste=
p, should default to 1).<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Andrew.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; -- <br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; --- <br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; You received this message because you are subscribed to the G=
oogle Groups &quot;ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals&quot; group.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from=
 it, send an email to <a href=3D"mailto:std-proposals%2Bunsubscribe@isocpp.=
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&gt;&gt; &gt; To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:std-pr=
oposals@isocpp.org" target=3D"_blank">std-proposals@isocpp.org</a>.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Visit this group at <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/a/is=
ocpp.org/group/std-proposals/" target=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/=
a/isocpp.org/group/std-proposals/</a>.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; -- <br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; --- <br>
&gt;&gt; You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google=
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send an email to <a href=3D"mailto:std-proposals%2Bunsubscribe@isocpp.org" =
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ls@isocpp.org" target=3D"_blank">std-proposals@isocpp.org</a>.<br>
&gt;&gt; Visit this group at <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.=
org/group/std-proposals/" target=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/a/iso=
cpp.org/group/std-proposals/</a>.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
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group/std-proposals/" target=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.=
org/group/std-proposals/</a>.<br>
</p>

<p></p>

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On 16 January 2016 at 10:52, Andrew Tomazos <andrewtomazos@gmail.com> wrote=
:

>
>
> On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 11:35 AM, dgutson . <danielgutson@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> El 16/1/2016 7:20, "Andrew Tomazos" <andrewtomazos@gmail.com> escribi=C3=
=B3:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 11:05 AM, dgutson . <danielgutson@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> El 16/1/2016 6:38, "Andrew Tomazos" <andrewtomazos@gmail.com>
>> escribi=C3=B3:
>> >> >
>> >> > Please find attached a rough incomplete 2-page draft entitled
>> "Proposal of Index-Based For Loop"
>> >> >
>> >> > Preliminary thoughts appreciated.
>> >>
>> >> I would prefer a library facility for iterating over a numeric range
>> (preferably integral types) with steps support:
>> >>
>> >>    for (auto i : std::numeric_range(4, 12, 2))
>> >>        stmt;
>> >
>> > You can already do this more tersely as follows:
>> >
>> >   for (int i =3D 4; i < 12; i +=3D 2)
>> >
>> > notice that this is shorter than:
>> >
>> >   for (int i : std::numeric_range(4, 12, 2))
>> >
>>
>> But this facility has the following advantages:
>>
>>    1) the range can be returned by a function:
>>        for(auto i : f() )
>>
>    2) convenient helpers can be provided:
>>        for (auto i : upto(N)) // replaces yor proposal
>>        for (auto i : downto(-10)) // 0 to -9
>>
>>     3) the numeric_range can automatically determine the step as -1 if
>> start > end
>>
> Don't get me wrong, I think a std::numeric_range type is a good idea and
> should be part of the ranges proposals/initiative.  It is not mutually
> exclusive with this proposal.
>
> What we are trying to do with this proposal is provide a short-hand for a
> specific very common pattern of code that occurs in existing practice.
>
> You are correct this could easily be implemented as a library feature:
>
>   for (auto i : std::upto(N))
>
> However as a core feature it is more compact:
>
>   for (auto i : N)
>
> My claim is that this specific use case is so common, that it warrants it=
s
> own terse core feature over the more verbose library solution.
>

what about the comma operator?

auto operator,(int from, int to) -> std::numeric_range
{
  return {from, to, 1};
}

const int N{10};
for (auto i : 0, N) {
  std::cout << i << std::endl;
}

--=20

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On 16 January 2016 at 10:52, Andrew Tomazos <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:andrewtomazos@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">andrewtomazos@gmail=
..com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"lt=
r"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><span clas=
s=3D"">On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 11:35 AM, dgutson . <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:danielgutson@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">danielgutson@gmai=
l.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204=
,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><span><p dir=3D"ltr"><br>
El 16/1/2016 7:20, &quot;Andrew Tomazos&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andrewt=
omazos@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">andrewtomazos@gmail.com</a>&gt; escribi=
=C3=B3:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 11:05 AM, dgutson . &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dani=
elgutson@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">danielgutson@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:=
<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; El 16/1/2016 6:38, &quot;Andrew Tomazos&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:andrewtomazos@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">andrewtomazos@gmail.com</a>&gt=
; escribi=C3=B3:<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Please find attached a rough incomplete 2-page draft entitled=
 &quot;Proposal of Index-Based For Loop&quot;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Preliminary thoughts appreciated.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I would prefer a library facility for iterating over a numeric ran=
ge (preferably integral types) with steps support:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; =C2=A0=C2=A0 for (auto i : std::numeric_range(4, 12, 2))<br>
&gt;&gt; =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 stmt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; You can already do this more tersely as follows:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 for (int i =3D 4; i &lt; 12; i +=3D 2)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; notice that this is shorter than:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 for (int i : std::numeric_range(4, 12, 2))<br>
&gt; =C2=A0</p>
</span><p dir=3D"ltr">But this facility has the following advantages:</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0=C2=A0 1) the range can be returned by a function:<br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 for(auto i : f() )</p></blockquote><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-lef=
t-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex">
<p dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0=C2=A0 2) convenient helpers can be provided:<br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 for (auto i : upto(N)) // replaces yor=
 proposal<br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 for (auto i : downto(-10)) // 0 to -9<=
/p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 3) the numeric_range can automatically de=
termine the step as -1 if start &gt; end</p></blockquote></span><div>Don&#3=
9;t get me wrong, I think a std::numeric_range type is a good idea and shou=
ld be part of the ranges proposals/initiative.=C2=A0 It is not mutually exc=
lusive with this proposal.</div><div><br></div><div>What we are trying to d=
o with this proposal is provide a short-hand for a specific very common pat=
tern of code that occurs in existing practice.</div><div><br></div><div>You=
 are correct this could easily be implemented as a library feature:</div><d=
iv><br></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 for (auto i : =
std::upto(N))<br></font></div><div><br></div><div>However as a core feature=
 it is more compact:</div><div><br></div><div><div><font face=3D"monospace,=
 monospace">=C2=A0 for (auto i : N)<br></font></div></div><div><br></div><d=
iv>My claim is that this specific use case is so common, that it warrants i=
ts own terse core feature over the more verbose library solution.</div></di=
v></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>what about the comma operato=
r?<br><br></div><div>auto operator,(int from, int to) -&gt; std::numeric_ra=
nge<br>{<br></div><div>=C2=A0 return {from, to, 1};<br></div><div>}<br><br>=
</div><div>const int N{10};<br></div><div>for (auto i : 0, N) {<br></div><d=
iv>=C2=A0 std::cout &lt;&lt; i &lt;&lt; std::endl;<br></div><div>}<br><br><=
/div></div></div></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
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--001a114015749cec140529716841--

.

--001a11419974de8d7405297182eb
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
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On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 11:59 AM, Sam Kellett <samkellett@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On 16 January 2016 at 10:52, Andrew Tomazos <andrewtomazos@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 11:35 AM, dgutson . <danielgutson@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> El 16/1/2016 7:20, "Andrew Tomazos" <andrewtomazos@gmail.com> escribi=
=C3=B3:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 11:05 AM, dgutson . <danielgutson@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> El 16/1/2016 6:38, "Andrew Tomazos" <andrewtomazos@gmail.com>
>>> escribi=C3=B3:
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Please find attached a rough incomplete 2-page draft entitled
>>> "Proposal of Index-Based For Loop"
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Preliminary thoughts appreciated.
>>> >>
>>> >> I would prefer a library facility for iterating over a numeric range
>>> (preferably integral types) with steps support:
>>> >>
>>> >>    for (auto i : std::numeric_range(4, 12, 2))
>>> >>        stmt;
>>> >
>>> > You can already do this more tersely as follows:
>>> >
>>> >   for (int i =3D 4; i < 12; i +=3D 2)
>>> >
>>> > notice that this is shorter than:
>>> >
>>> >   for (int i : std::numeric_range(4, 12, 2))
>>> >
>>>
>>> But this facility has the following advantages:
>>>
>>>    1) the range can be returned by a function:
>>>        for(auto i : f() )
>>>
>>    2) convenient helpers can be provided:
>>>        for (auto i : upto(N)) // replaces yor proposal
>>>        for (auto i : downto(-10)) // 0 to -9
>>>
>>>     3) the numeric_range can automatically determine the step as -1 if
>>> start > end
>>>
>> Don't get me wrong, I think a std::numeric_range type is a good idea and
>> should be part of the ranges proposals/initiative.  It is not mutually
>> exclusive with this proposal.
>>
>> What we are trying to do with this proposal is provide a short-hand for =
a
>> specific very common pattern of code that occurs in existing practice.
>>
>> You are correct this could easily be implemented as a library feature:
>>
>>   for (auto i : std::upto(N))
>>
>> However as a core feature it is more compact:
>>
>>   for (auto i : N)
>>
>> My claim is that this specific use case is so common, that it warrants
>> its own terse core feature over the more verbose library solution.
>>
>
> what about the comma operator?
>
> auto operator,(int from, int to) -> std::numeric_range
> {
>   return {from, to, 1};
> }
>
> const int N{10};
> for (auto i : 0, N) {
>   std::cout << i << std::endl;
> }
>

Again, the common use case is a looping over an index sequence
specifically.  That is 0,1,2,...,N-1.  Starting from an integer other than
0 is far less common, so I think we can leave those use cases to the
general for loop.

--=20

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 11:59 AM, Sam Kellett <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:samkellett@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">samkellett@gmail.com=
</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><div clas=
s=3D"h5">On 16 January 2016 at 10:52, Andrew Tomazos <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:andrewtomazos@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">andrewtomazos@=
gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><spa=
n>On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 11:35 AM, dgutson . <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:danielgutson@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">danielgutson@gmail.com=
</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)=
;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><span><p dir=3D"ltr"><br>
El 16/1/2016 7:20, &quot;Andrew Tomazos&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andrewt=
omazos@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">andrewtomazos@gmail.com</a>&gt; escribi=
=C3=B3:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 11:05 AM, dgutson . &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dani=
elgutson@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">danielgutson@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:=
<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; El 16/1/2016 6:38, &quot;Andrew Tomazos&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:andrewtomazos@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">andrewtomazos@gmail.com</a>&gt=
; escribi=C3=B3:<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Please find attached a rough incomplete 2-page draft entitled=
 &quot;Proposal of Index-Based For Loop&quot;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Preliminary thoughts appreciated.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I would prefer a library facility for iterating over a numeric ran=
ge (preferably integral types) with steps support:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; =C2=A0=C2=A0 for (auto i : std::numeric_range(4, 12, 2))<br>
&gt;&gt; =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 stmt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; You can already do this more tersely as follows:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 for (int i =3D 4; i &lt; 12; i +=3D 2)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; notice that this is shorter than:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 for (int i : std::numeric_range(4, 12, 2))<br>
&gt; =C2=A0</p>
</span><p dir=3D"ltr">But this facility has the following advantages:</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0=C2=A0 1) the range can be returned by a function:<br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 for(auto i : f() )</p></blockquote><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-lef=
t-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex">
<p dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0=C2=A0 2) convenient helpers can be provided:<br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 for (auto i : upto(N)) // replaces yor=
 proposal<br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 for (auto i : downto(-10)) // 0 to -9<=
/p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 3) the numeric_range can automatically de=
termine the step as -1 if start &gt; end</p></blockquote></span><div>Don&#3=
9;t get me wrong, I think a std::numeric_range type is a good idea and shou=
ld be part of the ranges proposals/initiative.=C2=A0 It is not mutually exc=
lusive with this proposal.</div><div><br></div><div>What we are trying to d=
o with this proposal is provide a short-hand for a specific very common pat=
tern of code that occurs in existing practice.</div><div><br></div><div>You=
 are correct this could easily be implemented as a library feature:</div><d=
iv><br></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 for (auto i : =
std::upto(N))<br></font></div><div><br></div><div>However as a core feature=
 it is more compact:</div><div><br></div><div><div><font face=3D"monospace,=
 monospace">=C2=A0 for (auto i : N)<br></font></div></div><div><br></div><d=
iv>My claim is that this specific use case is so common, that it warrants i=
ts own terse core feature over the more verbose library solution.</div></di=
v></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div></div><div>what about the c=
omma operator?<br><br></div><div>auto operator,(int from, int to) -&gt; std=
::numeric_range<br>{<br></div><div>=C2=A0 return {from, to, 1};<br></div><d=
iv>}<br><br></div><div>const int N{10};<br></div><div>for (auto i : 0, N) {=
<br></div><div>=C2=A0 std::cout &lt;&lt; i &lt;&lt; std::endl;<br></div><di=
v>}<br></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Again, the =
common use case is a looping over an index sequence specifically.=C2=A0 Tha=
t is 0,1,2,...,N-1.=C2=A0 Starting from an integer other than 0 is far less=
 common, so I think we can leave those use cases to the general for loop.</=
div><div><br></div></div></div></div>

<p></p>

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--001a11419974de8d7405297182eb--

.

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On Saturday, January 16, 2016 at 4:38:19 AM UTC-5, Andrew Tomazos wrote:
>
> Please find attached a rough incomplete 2-page draft entitled "Proposal of
> Index-Based For Loop"
>
> Preliminary thoughts appreciated.
>

First thought: why a PDF? It's a preliminary rough draft; a text file would
have been just fine, and I wouldn't have to download it, virus check it,
and load it into my PDF viewer.

Beyond that, your proposal is poorly prepared. Motivation needs to be step
1, because the primary argument against this feature is that it is
*unnecessary*.

You need to convince people that your syntax should be adopted over a
library solution like this:

for(auto i : std::monotonic(10)) //Always goes from 0 to X

or:

for(auto i : std::irange(10)) //One parameter means it goes from 0 to X.
Could take an alternate starting index and an increment/decrement

And so forth.

It doesn't matter how high the proportion of such cases are. If a library
solution will solve the problem with the exact same fidelity and
readability as a language solution, with only a minimum of syntactical
difference, then there is no justification for making it a language
solution.

From my perspective, this is a non-starter without a *much* better
justification section. It needs to explain, not just that the pattern gets
used a lot, but why a library solution should be considered an inadequate
replacement.

--

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">On Saturday, January 16, 2016 at 4:38:19 AM UTC-5, Andrew =
Tomazos wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-l=
eft: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"=
>Please find attached a rough incomplete 2-page draft entitled &quot;Propos=
al of Index-Based For Loop&quot;<div><br></div><div>Preliminary thoughts ap=
preciated.</div></div></blockquote><div><br>First thought: why a PDF? It&#3=
9;s a preliminary rough draft; a text file would have been just fine, and I=
 wouldn&#39;t have to download it, virus check it, and load it into my PDF =
viewer.<br><br>Beyond that, your proposal is poorly prepared. Motivation ne=
eds to be step 1, because the primary argument against this feature is that=
 it is <i>unnecessary</i>.<br><br>You need to convince people that your syn=
tax should be adopted over a library solution like this:<br><br><div class=
=3D"prettyprint" style=3D"background-color: rgb(250, 250, 250); border-colo=
r: rgb(187, 187, 187); border-style: solid; border-width: 1px; word-wrap: b=
reak-word;"><code class=3D"prettyprint"><div class=3D"subprettyprint"><span=
 style=3D"color: #008;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">for</span><span style=
=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">(</span><span style=3D"color=
: #008;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">auto</span><span style=3D"color: #000=
;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> i </span><span style=3D"color: #660;" clas=
s=3D"styled-by-prettify">:</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styl=
ed-by-prettify"> std</span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-=
prettify">::</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify=
">monotonic</span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"=
>(</span><span style=3D"color: #066;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">10</span=
><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">))</span><span s=
tyle=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> </span><span style=3D"c=
olor: #800;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">//Always goes from 0 to X</span><=
span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"><br></span></div><=
/code></div><br>or:<br><br><div class=3D"prettyprint" style=3D"background-c=
olor: rgb(250, 250, 250); border-color: rgb(187, 187, 187); border-style: s=
olid; border-width: 1px; word-wrap: break-word;"><code class=3D"prettyprint=
"><div class=3D"subprettyprint"><span style=3D"color: #008;" class=3D"style=
d-by-prettify">for</span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-pr=
ettify">(</span><span style=3D"color: #008;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">a=
uto</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> i </sp=
an><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">:</span><span =
style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> std</span><span style=
=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">::</span><span style=3D"colo=
r: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">irange</span><span style=3D"color: #=
660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">(</span><span style=3D"color: #066;" cla=
ss=3D"styled-by-prettify">10</span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"st=
yled-by-prettify">))</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-=
prettify"> </span><span style=3D"color: #800;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"=
>//One parameter means it goes from 0 to X. Could take an alternate startin=
g index and an increment/decrement</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=
=3D"styled-by-prettify"><br></span></div></code></div><br>And so forth.<br>=
<br>It doesn&#39;t matter how high the proportion of such cases are. If a l=
ibrary solution will solve the problem with the exact same fidelity and rea=
dability as a language solution, with only a minimum of syntactical differe=
nce, then there is no justification for making it a language solution.<br><=
br>From my perspective, this is a non-starter without a <i>much</i> better =
justification section. It needs to explain, not just that the pattern gets =
used a lot, but why a library solution should be considered an inadequate r=
eplacement.<br></div></div>

<p></p>

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------=_Part_1208_1911946784.1452960268411--
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Hi Andrew,

AFIAK, changing the core of language just to remove one short word of
typing has never been a convincing proposal.
the subject u r addressing does not even remove any duplication, nor does
it increase run-time performance or even readability. It does not increase
expressive of the language.
Core-language modifications - even minimal ones - r generally considered
heavy lifts and avoid, unless there are great motivations that in the
current context I (as an experimental programmer) can't see it.
The library solution can be handled quite elegantly via template/constexpr
and other modern C++ features:

for(auto i: to(10));
for(auto i: from(-10));
for(auto i: to(10),3);
for(auto i: to(10),from(5),3);
for(auto i: to(10),from(15),3);//downward step=3D3
for(auto i: from(4),-to(10),3);//upward step=3D3 rang=3D[4,10) (exclude 10)
for(auto i: from(16),-to(10),3);//downward step=3D3 rang=3D(10,16] (exclude=
 10)

for(auto i: in(5,15));
for(auto i: in(5,15)-2);//downward step=3D2
for(auto i: -+in(5,15));//downward  range=3D(5,15] (exclude 5)
for(auto i: +-in(5,15),2);//upward  step=3D2 range=3D[5,15) (exclude 15)

for(auto d: in(5.5,15.5)-0.5);//downward step=3D0.5 in float range
for(auto d: -+in(5.5,15.5)|exp);//downward with exponential growth  float
range=3D(5.5,15.5] (exclude 5.5)

//upward with user-defined growth  ,float range=3D(5.5,15.5] (exclude 15.5)=
:
for(auto d: +-in(5.5,15.5) | fn([](float x)->float{return pow(x,x);}));

in fact, the library approach can remove the common caveat  of mistaken
conditioning/stepping/initialization:
for(int i=3D0 ; i > 10 ; --i);// downward step, starting from 0 , as long a=
s
i is above 10!!!!!!

 regards,
FM.

2016-01-16 14:36 GMT+03:30 Andrew Tomazos <andrewtomazos@gmail.com>:

>
>
> On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 11:59 AM, Sam Kellett <samkellett@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On 16 January 2016 at 10:52, Andrew Tomazos <andrewtomazos@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 11:35 AM, dgutson . <danielgutson@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> El 16/1/2016 7:20, "Andrew Tomazos" <andrewtomazos@gmail.com> escribi=
=C3=B3:
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 11:05 AM, dgutson . <danielgutson@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> El 16/1/2016 6:38, "Andrew Tomazos" <andrewtomazos@gmail.com>
>>>> escribi=C3=B3:
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Please find attached a rough incomplete 2-page draft entitled
>>>> "Proposal of Index-Based For Loop"
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Preliminary thoughts appreciated.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I would prefer a library facility for iterating over a numeric rang=
e
>>>> (preferably integral types) with steps support:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>    for (auto i : std::numeric_range(4, 12, 2))
>>>> >>        stmt;
>>>> >
>>>> > You can already do this more tersely as follows:
>>>> >
>>>> >   for (int i =3D 4; i < 12; i +=3D 2)
>>>> >
>>>> > notice that this is shorter than:
>>>> >
>>>> >   for (int i : std::numeric_range(4, 12, 2))
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> But this facility has the following advantages:
>>>>
>>>>    1) the range can be returned by a function:
>>>>        for(auto i : f() )
>>>>
>>>    2) convenient helpers can be provided:
>>>>        for (auto i : upto(N)) // replaces yor proposal
>>>>        for (auto i : downto(-10)) // 0 to -9
>>>>
>>>>     3) the numeric_range can automatically determine the step as -1 if
>>>> start > end
>>>>
>>> Don't get me wrong, I think a std::numeric_range type is a good idea an=
d
>>> should be part of the ranges proposals/initiative.  It is not mutually
>>> exclusive with this proposal.
>>>
>>> What we are trying to do with this proposal is provide a short-hand for
>>> a specific very common pattern of code that occurs in existing practice=
..
>>>
>>> You are correct this could easily be implemented as a library feature:
>>>
>>>   for (auto i : std::upto(N))
>>>
>>> However as a core feature it is more compact:
>>>
>>>   for (auto i : N)
>>>
>>> My claim is that this specific use case is so common, that it warrants
>>> its own terse core feature over the more verbose library solution.
>>>
>>
>> what about the comma operator?
>>
>> auto operator,(int from, int to) -> std::numeric_range
>> {
>>   return {from, to, 1};
>> }
>>
>> const int N{10};
>> for (auto i : 0, N) {
>>   std::cout << i << std::endl;
>> }
>>
>
> Again, the common use case is a looping over an index sequence
> specifically.  That is 0,1,2,...,N-1.  Starting from an integer other tha=
n
> 0 is far less common, so I think we can leave those use cases to the
> general for loop.
>
> --

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--=20
how am I supposed to end the twisted road of  your hair in such a dark
night??
unless the candle of your face does shed some light upon my way!!!

--=20

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--001a11c151e223e3ad052975bf89
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
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<div dir=3D"rtl"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:&#39;ari=
al narrow&#39;,sans-serif;font-size:large" dir=3D"ltr">Hi Andrew,</div><div=
 class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:&#39;arial narrow&#39;,sans-s=
erif;font-size:large" dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" st=
yle=3D"font-family:&#39;arial narrow&#39;,sans-serif;font-size:large" dir=
=3D"ltr">AFIAK, changing the core of language just to remove one short word=
 of typing has never been a convincing proposal.</div><div class=3D"gmail_d=
efault" style=3D"font-family:&#39;arial narrow&#39;,sans-serif;font-size:la=
rge" dir=3D"ltr">the subject u r addressing does not even remove any duplic=
ation, nor does it increase run-time performance or even readability. It do=
es not increase expressive of the language.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_=
default" style=3D"font-family:&#39;arial narrow&#39;,sans-serif;font-size:l=
arge" dir=3D"ltr">Core-language modifications - even minimal ones - r gener=
ally considered heavy lifts and avoid, unless there are great motivations t=
hat in the current context I (as an experimental programmer) can&#39;t see =
it.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:&#39;arial narro=
w&#39;,sans-serif;font-size:large" dir=3D"ltr">The library solution can be =
handled quite elegantly via template/constexpr and other modern C++ feature=
s:</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:&#39;arial narrow=
&#39;,sans-serif;font-size:large" dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail=
_default" style=3D"font-family:&#39;arial narrow&#39;,sans-serif;font-size:=
large" dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" dir=3D"ltr">for(auto i: to(=
10));<br></div><div><div class=3D"gmail_default" dir=3D"ltr">for(auto i: fr=
om(-10));<br></div></div><div><div class=3D"gmail_default" dir=3D"ltr"><div=
><div class=3D"gmail_default" dir=3D"ltr">for(auto i: to(10),3);<br></div><=
/div><div><div class=3D"gmail_default" dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"gmail=
_default" dir=3D"ltr">for(auto i: to(10),from(5),3);<br></div></div><div><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_default" dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"gmail_default" di=
r=3D"ltr">for(auto i: to(10),from(15),3);//downward step=3D3<br></div></div=
><div><div class=3D"gmail_default" dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"gmail_def=
ault" dir=3D"ltr">for(auto i: from(4),-to(10),3);//upward step=3D3 rang=3D[=
4,10) (exclude 10)</div></div><div><div class=3D"gmail_default" dir=3D"ltr"=
><div><div class=3D"gmail_default" dir=3D"ltr">for(auto i: from(16),-to(10)=
,3);//downward=C2=A0step=3D3 rang=3D(10,16] (exclude 10)</div></div><div><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_default" dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_defaul=
t" dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"gmail_default" dir=3D"ltr">for(auto i: in=
(5,15));</div></div><div><div class=3D"gmail_default" dir=3D"ltr"><div><div=
 class=3D"gmail_default" dir=3D"ltr">for(auto i: in(5,15)-2);//downward ste=
p=3D2</div></div><div><div class=3D"gmail_default" dir=3D"ltr"><div><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_default" dir=3D"ltr">for(auto i: -+in(5,15));//downward =C2=A0=
range=3D(5,15]=C2=A0(exclude 5)</div></div><div><div><div class=3D"gmail_de=
fault" dir=3D"ltr">for(auto i: +-in(5,15),2);//upward =C2=A0step=3D2 range=
=3D[5,15) (exclude 15)</div></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" dir=3D=
"ltr"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D=
"gmail_default" dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" dir=3D"ltr"><div><=
div class=3D"gmail_default" dir=3D"ltr">for(auto d: in(5.5,15.5)-0.5);//dow=
nward step=3D0.5 in float range</div></div><div><div class=3D"gmail_default=
" dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"gmail_default" dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" dir=3D"ltr">for(auto d: -+in(5.5,15.5)|exp);//downward w=
ith exponential growth =C2=A0float range=3D(5.5,15.5]=C2=A0(exclude 5.5)</d=
iv></div><div><div><div class=3D"gmail_default" dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" dir=
=3D"ltr">//upward with user-defined growth =C2=A0,float range=3D(5.5,15.5]=
=C2=A0(exclude 15.5):</div></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" dir=3D"=
ltr">for(auto d: +-in(5.5,15.5) | fn([](float x)-&gt;float{return pow(x,x);=
}));</div></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_default">in fact, the library approach can remove the com=
mon caveat =C2=A0of mistaken conditioning/stepping/initialization:</div><di=
v class=3D"gmail_default">for(int i=3D0 ; i &gt; 10 ; --i);// downward step=
, starting from 0 , as long as i is above 10!!!!!!</div><div class=3D"gmail=
_default"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default">=C2=A0regards,</div><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_default">FM.</div></div></div><div><div class=3D"gmail_defaul=
t" dir=3D"ltr"><div></div></div></div></div></div><div><div class=3D"gmail_=
default" dir=3D"ltr"><div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><=
/div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><=
div class=3D"gmail_quote">2016-01-16 14:36 GMT+03:30 Andrew Tomazos <span d=
ir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andrewtomazos@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>andrewtomazos@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span>:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">=
<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><div cla=
ss=3D"h5">On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 11:59 AM, Sam Kellett <span dir=3D"ltr">&=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:samkellett@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">samkellett@gma=
il.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"=
ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><di=
v>On 16 January 2016 at 10:52, Andrew Tomazos <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:andrewtomazos@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">andrewtomazos@gmail.c=
om</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"=
><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><span>On Sat=
, Jan 16, 2016 at 11:35 AM, dgutson . <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:danielgutson@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">danielgutson@gmail.com</a>&gt;=
</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px=
 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-=
left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><span><p dir=3D"ltr"><br>
El 16/1/2016 7:20, &quot;Andrew Tomazos&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andrewt=
omazos@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">andrewtomazos@gmail.com</a>&gt; escribi=
=C3=B3:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 11:05 AM, dgutson . &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dani=
elgutson@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">danielgutson@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:=
<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; El 16/1/2016 6:38, &quot;Andrew Tomazos&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:andrewtomazos@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">andrewtomazos@gmail.com</a>&gt=
; escribi=C3=B3:<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Please find attached a rough incomplete 2-page draft entitled=
 &quot;Proposal of Index-Based For Loop&quot;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Preliminary thoughts appreciated.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I would prefer a library facility for iterating over a numeric ran=
ge (preferably integral types) with steps support:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; =C2=A0=C2=A0 for (auto i : std::numeric_range(4, 12, 2))<br>
&gt;&gt; =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 stmt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; You can already do this more tersely as follows:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 for (int i =3D 4; i &lt; 12; i +=3D 2)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; notice that this is shorter than:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 for (int i : std::numeric_range(4, 12, 2))<br>
&gt; =C2=A0</p>
</span><p dir=3D"ltr">But this facility has the following advantages:</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0=C2=A0 1) the range can be returned by a function:<br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 for(auto i : f() )</p></blockquote><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-lef=
t-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex">
<p dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0=C2=A0 2) convenient helpers can be provided:<br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 for (auto i : upto(N)) // replaces yor=
 proposal<br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 for (auto i : downto(-10)) // 0 to -9<=
/p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 3) the numeric_range can automatically de=
termine the step as -1 if start &gt; end</p></blockquote></span><div>Don&#3=
9;t get me wrong, I think a std::numeric_range type is a good idea and shou=
ld be part of the ranges proposals/initiative.=C2=A0 It is not mutually exc=
lusive with this proposal.</div><div><br></div><div>What we are trying to d=
o with this proposal is provide a short-hand for a specific very common pat=
tern of code that occurs in existing practice.</div><div><br></div><div>You=
 are correct this could easily be implemented as a library feature:</div><d=
iv><br></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 for (auto i : =
std::upto(N))<br></font></div><div><br></div><div>However as a core feature=
 it is more compact:</div><div><br></div><div><div><font face=3D"monospace,=
 monospace">=C2=A0 for (auto i : N)<br></font></div></div><div><br></div><d=
iv>My claim is that this specific use case is so common, that it warrants i=
ts own terse core feature over the more verbose library solution.</div></di=
v></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div></div><div>what about the c=
omma operator?<br><br></div><div>auto operator,(int from, int to) -&gt; std=
::numeric_range<br>{<br></div><div>=C2=A0 return {from, to, 1};<br></div><d=
iv>}<br><br></div><div>const int N{10};<br></div><div>for (auto i : 0, N) {=
<br></div><div>=C2=A0 std::cout &lt;&lt; i &lt;&lt; std::endl;<br></div><di=
v>}<br></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div></div><div=
>Again, the common use case is a looping over an index sequence specificall=
y.=C2=A0 That is 0,1,2,...,N-1.=C2=A0 Starting from an integer other than 0=
 is far less common, so I think we can leave those use cases to the general=
 for loop.</div><div><br></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div class=3D=
"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">

<p></p>

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roup/std-proposals/</a>.<br>
</div></div></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class=3D"gma=
il_signature"><div dir=3D"rtl"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">how am I supposed to e=
nd the twisted road of=C2=A0 your hair in such a dark night??<br>unless the=
 candle of your face does shed some light upon my way!!!<br></div></div></d=
iv></div>
</div>

<p></p>

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On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 5:08 PM, Farid Mehrabi <farid.mehrabi@gmail.com>
wrote:

> AFIAK, changing the core of language just to remove one short word of
> typing has never been a convincing proposal.
>

Why have a built-in + operator?  Why not have a std::add library function
instead?  It just removes one short word of typing.  The answer is that for
common-enough use cases, we provide a terse built-in syntax - even at the
added implementation expense of core changes compared to library facilities.

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On S=
at, Jan 16, 2016 at 5:08 PM, Farid Mehrabi <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:farid.mehrabi@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">farid.mehrabi@gmail.com<=
/a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"rtl"><d=
iv style=3D"font-family:&#39;arial narrow&#39;,sans-serif;font-size:large" =
dir=3D"ltr">AFIAK, changing the core of language just to remove one short w=
ord of typing has never been a convincing proposal.<br></div></div></blockq=
uote><div>=C2=A0</div><div>Why have a built-in + operator?=C2=A0 Why not ha=
ve a std::add library function instead?=C2=A0 It just removes one short wor=
d of typing.=C2=A0 The answer is that for common-enough use cases, we provi=
de a terse built-in syntax - even at the added implementation expense of co=
re changes compared to library facilities.</div><div><br></div></div></div>=
</div>

<p></p>

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On Saturday, January 16, 2016 at 1:18:33 PM UTC-5, Andrew Tomazos wrote:
>
> On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 5:08 PM, Farid Mehrabi <farid....@gmail.com
> <javascript:>> wrote:
>
>> AFIAK, changing the core of language just to remove one short word of
>> typing has never been a convincing proposal.
>>
>
> Why have a built-in + operator?  Why not have a std::add library function
> instead?  It just removes one short word of typing.  The answer is that for
> common-enough use cases, we provide a terse built-in syntax - even at the
> added implementation expense of core changes compared to library facilities.
>

.... is that *really* the best argument you can put forward for this? "Well,
we did it with + and integers, why not do it with looping from 0 to X?"
Seriously, who exactly do you expect to convince with that?

People can argue that many things are "common-enough use cases". That
*alone* is insufficient.

One of the primary reasons why we added range-based for was because people
*consistently* wrote range loops incorrectly. Common mistakes include using
the slower (or non-existent) postfix ++ operator to increment the iterator
and constantly calling the potentially expensive `end` function. And doing
it correctly involves creating new scopes manually or leaking variables.

By making range-based for a first-class language feature, you eliminate
these problems. Something similar goes for the recent `for/else` proposal;
it's taking a problem people often implement incorrectly or oddly and make
those implementations more correct.

What problem does your proposal solve? Are people frequently writing
monotonic loops over the range [0, X) incorrectly?

The most frequent error I see with such loops is people accidentally
modifying the loop counter. Which can be resolved just fine with a library
solution.

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On Saturday, January 16, 2016 at 1:18:33 PM UTC-5, Andrew Tomazos wrote:<bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border=
-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 5:08 PM, Farid Mehrabi <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailt=
o=3D"NoKR5ALNFgAJ" rel=3D"nofollow" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;javascr=
ipt:&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;javascript:&#39;;return=
 true;">farid....@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-l=
eft:1ex"><div dir=3D"rtl"><div style=3D"font-family:&#39;arial narrow&#39;,=
sans-serif;font-size:large" dir=3D"ltr">AFIAK, changing the core of languag=
e just to remove one short word of typing has never been a convincing propo=
sal.<br></div></div></blockquote><div>=C2=A0</div><div>Why have a built-in =
+ operator?=C2=A0 Why not have a std::add library function instead?=C2=A0 I=
t just removes one short word of typing.=C2=A0 The answer is that for commo=
n-enough use cases, we provide a terse built-in syntax - even at the added =
implementation expense of core changes compared to library facilities.</div=
></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br>... is that <i>really</i> the best=
 argument you can put forward for this? &quot;Well, we did it with + and in=
tegers, why not do it with looping from 0 to X?&quot; Seriously, who exactl=
y do you expect to convince with that?<br><br>People can argue that many th=
ings are &quot;common-enough use cases&quot;. That <i>alone</i> is insuffic=
ient.<br><br>One of the primary reasons why we added range-based for was be=
cause people <i>consistently</i> wrote range loops incorrectly. Common mist=
akes include using the slower (or non-existent) postfix ++ operator to incr=
ement the iterator and constantly calling the potentially expensive `end` f=
unction. And doing it correctly involves creating new scopes manually or le=
aking variables.<br><br>By making range-based for a first-class language fe=
ature, you eliminate these problems. Something similar goes for the recent =
`for/else` proposal; it&#39;s taking a problem people often implement incor=
rectly or oddly and make those implementations more correct.<br><br>What pr=
oblem does your proposal solve? Are people frequently writing monotonic loo=
ps over the range [0, X) incorrectly?<br><br>The most frequent error I see =
with such loops is people accidentally modifying the loop counter. Which ca=
n be resolved just fine with a library solution.<br></div>

<p></p>

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I do believe that this is probably pointless.
Current work in both libraries and in the Ranges proposals would make this pointless. Also for an index that does not start from zero, how would this syntax help?
I would prefer something like this:

for(auto val : std::range(12,56))
    printf("index is: %s", val);

Than the following:

for(auto val : 56)
    if(val > 12)
        printf("index is: %s", val);

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2016-01-16 21:48 GMT+03:30 Andrew Tomazos <andrewtomazos@gmail.com>:

> Why have a
> =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B
> built-in + operator?  Why not have a std::add library function instead?
> It just removes one short word of typing.  The answer is that for
> common-enough use cases, we provide a terse built-in syntax - even at the
> added implementation expense of core changes compared to library faciliti=
es.
>

=E2=80=8BThe 'operator +' has been there since day one. No need to change t=
he core
language to have it.
Have u ever joined a programmer team working on project larger than a few
tens of thousand lines of code spattered in several (more than somewhat 20)
modules? can you imagine the amount time of effort spent to detect and
remove compile and run time errors due to simple - but buggy - change? And
this is just a meer application project. A software - more specifically a
programming language - project is far more complex and delicate. The price
of a small change in core language is rather too high; it involves long
development cycles including community programmers and testers.Therefore
modification of the core is generally avoided unless:

1. There is great determination due to an urgent need ***and***,
2. There exists no close-to-optimal library implementation of the feature(A=
fter
all one purpose of creating libraries has always been to prevent core
language modifications).

As u might have noticed in my previous post, I believe that criteria NO.1
is correct for indexed loops (removing the caveat of wrong
initialization/conditioning/stepping in for loops). ***But*** criteria NO.2
???
My answer is no. I have already given code snippets to show how flexibly
the library can handle the syntax for the discussed feature.

cheers,
FM.

--=20

how am I supposed to end the twisted road of  your hair in such a dark
night??
unless the candle of your face does shed some light upon my way!!!

--=20

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<div dir=3D"rtl"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:&#39;ari=
al narrow&#39;,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_ex=
tra"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2016-01-16 21:48 GMT+0=
3:30 Andrew Tomazos <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andrewtomazos@g=
mail.com" target=3D"_blank">andrewtomazos@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span>:<br><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1=
px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;border-right-=
width:1px;border-right-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-right-style:solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex;padding-right:1ex"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gm=
ail_quote"><div>Why have a <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-famil=
y:&#39;arial narrow&#39;,sans-serif;font-size:large;display:inline">=E2=80=
=8B=E2=80=8B</div>built-in + operator?=C2=A0 Why not have a std::add librar=
y function instead?=C2=A0 It just removes one short word of typing.=C2=A0 T=
he answer is that for common-enough use cases, we provide a terse built-in =
syntax - even at the added implementation expense of core changes compared =
to library facilities.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_default"><font face=3D"arial narrow, sans-serif" size=3D"=
4">=E2=80=8BThe &#39;operator +&#39; has been there since day one. No need =
to change the core language to have it.=C2=A0</font></div><div class=3D"gma=
il_default"><font face=3D"arial narrow, sans-serif" size=3D"4">Have u ever =
joined a programmer team working on project larger than a few tens of thous=
and=C2=A0lines of code spattered in several (more than somewhat 20) modules=
? can you imagine the amount time of effort spent to detect and remove comp=
ile and run time errors due to simple - but buggy - change? And this is jus=
t a meer application project. A software - more specifically a programming =
language - project is far more complex and delicate. The price of a small c=
hange in core language is rather too high; it involves long development cyc=
les including community programmers and testers.Therefore modification of t=
he core is generally avoided unless:</font></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_=
default"><font face=3D"arial narrow, sans-serif" size=3D"4"><br></font></di=
v><div class=3D"gmail_default"><font face=3D"arial narrow, sans-serif" size=
=3D"4">1. There is great determination due to an urgent need ***and***,</fo=
nt></div><div class=3D"gmail_default"><font face=3D"arial narrow, sans-seri=
f" size=3D"4">2. There exists no close-to-optimal library implementation of=
 the feature(</font><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;arial narrow&#39;,sans-=
serif;font-size:large">After all one purpose of creating libraries has alwa=
ys been to prevent core language modifications).</span></div><div class=3D"=
gmail_default"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;arial narrow&#39;,sans-serif=
;font-size:large"><br></span></div><div class=3D"gmail_default"><span style=
=3D"font-family:&#39;arial narrow&#39;,sans-serif;font-size:large">As u mig=
ht have noticed in my previous post, I believe that criteria NO.1 is correc=
t for indexed loops (removing the caveat of wrong initialization/conditioni=
ng/stepping in for loops). ***But*** criteria NO.2 ???</span></div><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_default"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;arial narrow&#39;,sans=
-serif;font-size:large">My answer is no. I have=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"=
font-family:&#39;arial narrow&#39;,sans-serif;font-size:large">already</spa=
n><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;arial narrow&#39;,sans-serif;font-size:la=
rge">=C2=A0given code snippets to show how flexibly the library can handle =
the syntax for the discussed feature.</span></div><div class=3D"gmail_defau=
lt"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;arial narrow&#39;,sans-serif;font-size:=
large"><br></span></div><div class=3D"gmail_default"><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:&#39;arial narrow&#39;,sans-serif;font-size:large">cheers,</span></div=
><div class=3D"gmail_default"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;arial narrow&=
#39;,sans-serif;font-size:large">FM.</span></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D"h5">

<p></p>

--=C2=A0<br></div><div class=3D"h5"><br></div></div></div><div class=3D"gma=
il_signature"><div dir=3D"rtl"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">how am I supposed to e=
nd the twisted road of=C2=A0 your hair in such a dark night??<br>unless the=
 candle of your face does shed some light upon my way!!!<br></div></div></d=
iv></div>
</div></div>

<p></p>

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On Sunday, January 17, 2016 at 9:55:06 AM UTC-5, Izzy Coding wrote:
>
> I do believe that this is probably pointless.
> Current work in both libraries and in the Ranges proposals would make this
> pointless. Also for an index that does not start from zero, how would this
> syntax help?
> I would prefer something like this:
>
> for(auto val : std::range(12,56))
>     printf("index is: %s", val);
>
> Than the following:
>
> for(auto val : 56)
>     if(val > 12)
>         printf("index is: %s", val);
>

I hadn't realized that such a syntax would encourage such code, but your
code made me realize something else as well.

Seeing the full range in the code makes it clear exactly what's going on.
So if someone can understand what this means:

for(auto &value : vec)

Then they can easily guess at what this means:

for(auto &value : irange(0, 35))

Whereas this:

for(auto &value : 35)

Is a bit less clear exactly what's going on. It's using "range for" syntax,
but there's no *range*; it's just a number. Whereas a user can see `irange`
with two values and take a reasonable guess at what that means, even if
they've never seen it before.

I don't think the proposal improves clarity.

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<div dir=3D"ltr">On Sunday, January 17, 2016 at 9:55:06 AM UTC-5, Izzy Codi=
ng wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: =
0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">I do believe that thi=
s is probably pointless.<br>Current work in both libraries and in the Range=
s proposals would make this pointless. Also for an index that does not star=
t from zero, how would this syntax help?<br>I would prefer something like t=
his:<p>for(auto val : std::range(12,56))<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 printf(&quot;inde=
x is: %s&quot;, val);</p><p>Than the following:</p><p>for(auto val : 56)<br=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 if(val &gt; 12)<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 printf(&quot;=
index is: %s&quot;, val);</p></blockquote><div><br>I hadn&#39;t realized th=
at such a syntax would encourage such code, but your code made me realize s=
omething else as well.<br><br>Seeing the full range in the code makes it cl=
ear exactly what&#39;s going on. So if someone can understand what this mea=
ns:<br><br><div class=3D"prettyprint" style=3D"background-color: rgb(250, 2=
50, 250); border-color: rgb(187, 187, 187); border-style: solid; border-wid=
th: 1px; word-wrap: break-word;"><code class=3D"prettyprint"><div class=3D"=
subprettyprint"><span style=3D"color: #008;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">f=
or</span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">(</span>=
<span style=3D"color: #008;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">auto</span><span =
style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> </span><span style=3D"=
color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">&amp;</span><span style=3D"color=
: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">value </span><span style=3D"color: #6=
60;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">:</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" clas=
s=3D"styled-by-prettify"> vec</span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"s=
tyled-by-prettify">)</span></div></code></div><br>Then they can easily gues=
s at what this means:<br><br><div class=3D"prettyprint" style=3D"background=
-color: rgb(250, 250, 250); border-color: rgb(187, 187, 187); border-style:=
 solid; border-width: 1px; word-wrap: break-word;"><code class=3D"prettypri=
nt"><div class=3D"subprettyprint"><span style=3D"color: #008;" class=3D"sty=
led-by-prettify">for</span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-=
prettify">(</span><span style=3D"color: #008;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"=
>auto</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> </sp=
an><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">&amp;</span><s=
pan style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">value </span><span =
style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">:</span><span style=3D"=
color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> irange</span><span style=3D"col=
or: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">(</span><span style=3D"color: #066;=
" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">0</span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=
=3D"styled-by-prettify">,</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"style=
d-by-prettify"> </span><span style=3D"color: #066;" class=3D"styled-by-pret=
tify">35</span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">))=
</span></div></code></div><br>Whereas this:<br><br><div class=3D"prettyprin=
t" style=3D"background-color: rgb(250, 250, 250); border-color: rgb(187, 18=
7, 187); border-style: solid; border-width: 1px; word-wrap: break-word;"><c=
ode class=3D"prettyprint"><div class=3D"subprettyprint"><span style=3D"colo=
r: #008;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">for</span><span style=3D"color: #660=
;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">(</span><span style=3D"color: #008;" class=
=3D"styled-by-prettify">auto</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"st=
yled-by-prettify"> </span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-p=
rettify">&amp;</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-pretti=
fy">value </span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">=
:</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> </span><=
span style=3D"color: #066;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">35</span><span sty=
le=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">)</span></div></code></div=
><br>Is a bit less clear exactly what&#39;s going on. It&#39;s using &quot;=
range for&quot; syntax, but there&#39;s no <i>range</i>; it&#39;s just a nu=
mber. Whereas a user can see `irange` with two values and take a reasonable=
 guess at what that means, even if they&#39;ve never seen it before.<br><br=
>I don&#39;t think the proposal improves clarity.<br></div></div>

<p></p>

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------=_Part_108_494792052.1453066775850--
------=_Part_107_1614991443.1453066775850--

.

(intentionally top posting since this is not a specific reply).

Andrew, I humbly suggest you to focus your efforts in a
library-version proposal.
As a non solicited helping hand, here is a 5 minutes implementation.
I called it make_range rather than irange as other suggested.
I didn't either put much effort in checking if this has previously been pro=
posed
and/or the ranges SG has already one.
Of course I know you can write it yourself, but I'm posting something
to start with as an initial step.
If you or somebody else thinks that this should be a new thread,
please let me know.
If you don't want to write a library version proposal (and there is
none already), I will.

http://ideone.com/CnCwzF

Daniel.

On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 6:39 PM, Nicol Bolas <jmckesson@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sunday, January 17, 2016 at 9:55:06 AM UTC-5, Izzy Coding wrote:
>>
>> I do believe that this is probably pointless.
>> Current work in both libraries and in the Ranges proposals would make th=
is
>> pointless. Also for an index that does not start from zero, how would th=
is
>> syntax help?
>> I would prefer something like this:
>>
>> for(auto val : std::range(12,56))
>>     printf("index is: %s", val);
>>
>> Than the following:
>>
>> for(auto val : 56)
>>     if(val > 12)
>>         printf("index is: %s", val);
>
>
> I hadn't realized that such a syntax would encourage such code, but your
> code made me realize something else as well.
>
> Seeing the full range in the code makes it clear exactly what's going on.=
 So
> if someone can understand what this means:
>
> for(auto &value : vec)
>
> Then they can easily guess at what this means:
>
> for(auto &value : irange(0, 35))
>
> Whereas this:
>
> for(auto &value : 35)
>
> Is a bit less clear exactly what's going on. It's using "range for" synta=
x,
> but there's no range; it's just a number. Whereas a user can see `irange`
> with two values and take a reasonable guess at what that means, even if
> they've never seen it before.
>
> I don't think the proposal improves clarity.
>
> --
>
> ---
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
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--=20
Who=E2=80=99s got the sweetest disposition?
One guess, that=E2=80=99s who?
Who=E2=80=99d never, ever start an argument?
Who never shows a bit of temperament?
Who's never wrong but always right?
Who'd never dream of starting a fight?
Who get stuck with all the bad luck?

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On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 11:56 PM, dgutson . <danielgutson@gmail.com> wrote:

> I humbly suggest you to focus your efforts in a library-version proposal.
>

I don't think people will use a library-based solution for for loops, even
if one was adopted.  They will just continue to use the general for loop as
they do now, as it is shorter and doesn't require an include.  As evidence
I give you the fact that the library-based solution is easy to implement,
and yet we haven't seen any existing practice of it.  On the other hand, I
think the proposed dedicated syntax, which actually is a short-hand, and
doesn't require an include, would get used.

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On S=
un, Jan 17, 2016 at 11:56 PM, dgutson . <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:danielgutson@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">danielgutson@gmail.com</a>&g=
t;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0=
 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">I humbly suggest you to =
focus your efforts in a=C2=A0library-version proposal.<br></blockquote><div=
><br></div><div>I don&#39;t think people will use a library-based solution =
for for loops, even if one was adopted.=C2=A0 They will just continue to us=
e the general for loop as they do now, as it is shorter and doesn&#39;t req=
uire an include.=C2=A0 As evidence I give you the fact that the library-bas=
ed solution is easy to implement, and yet we haven&#39;t seen any existing =
practice of it.=C2=A0 On the other hand, I think the proposed dedicated syn=
tax, which actually is a short-hand, and doesn&#39;t require an include, wo=
uld get used.</div><div><br></div></div></div></div>

<p></p>

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--047d7ba972225367dc052990c618--

.

On 18 January 2016 at 02:24, Andrew Tomazos <andrewtomazos@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 11:56 PM, dgutson . <danielgutson@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I humbly suggest you to focus your efforts in a library-version proposal.
> I don't think people will use a library-based solution for for loops, even
> if one was adopted.  They will just continue to use the general for loop as
> they do now, as it is shorter and doesn't require an include.  As evidence I
> give you the fact that the library-based solution is easy to implement, and
> yet we haven't seen any existing practice of it.  On the other hand, I think
> the proposed dedicated syntax, which actually is a short-hand, and doesn't
> require an include, would get used.

Existing practice is not that hard to find, it's right where one would expect it
to be:
http://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_60_0/libs/range/doc/html/range/reference/ranges/irange.html

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.

El 17/1/2016 21:53, "Ville Voutilainen" <ville.voutilainen@gmail.com> escri=
bi=C3=B3:
>
> On 18 January 2016 at 02:24, Andrew Tomazos <andrewtomazos@gmail.com> wro=
te:
> > On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 11:56 PM, dgutson . <danielgutson@gmail.com> wr=
ote:
> >>
> >> I humbly suggest you to focus your efforts in a library-version propos=
al.
> > I don't think people will use a library-based solution for for loops, e=
ven
> > if one was adopted.  They will just continue to use the general for loo=
p as
> > they do now, as it is shorter and doesn't require an include.  As evide=
nce I
> > give you the fact that the library-based solution is easy to implement,=
 and
> > yet we haven't seen any existing practice of it.

I don't know how widely Boost's irange is used; the file has copyright
2010 and is not constexpr friendly, so maybe that's a symptom that it
is no very used.

>  On the other hand, I think
> > the proposed dedicated syntax, which actually is a short-hand, and does=
n't
> > require an include, would get used.

Maybe, I think it's hard to predict.

>
> Existing practice is not that hard to find, it's right where one would ex=
pect it
> to be:
> http://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_60_0/libs/range/doc/html/range/reference/=
ranges/irange.html

I don't think we need this feature at all. But if it's decided that
C++ has to make room for it, I do prefer the library solution rather
than the core language one. I said before I was going to write a
library version proposal, but now that I think this better, I won't. I
think we should focus our energy in relevant nowadays problems, like
concepts, contracts, etc., rather than something that has been being
done since 40 years ago and everybody is used to without complain,
just to avoid a few keystrokes.
But that's my humble oppinion.


>
> --
>
> ---
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups=
 "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an=
 email to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org.
> To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/group/std-prop=
osals/.

--=20

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On Sunday, January 17, 2016 at 9:35:27 PM UTC-5, dgutson wrote:
>
> El 17/1/2016 21:53, "Ville Voutilainen" <ville.vo...@gmail.com=20
> <javascript:>> escribi=C3=B3:=20
> >=20
> > On 18 January 2016 at 02:24, Andrew Tomazos <andrew...@gmail.com=20
> <javascript:>> wrote:=20
> > > On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 11:56 PM, dgutson . <daniel...@gmail.com=20
> <javascript:>> wrote:=20
> > >>=20
> > >> I humbly suggest you to focus your efforts in a library-version=20
> proposal.=20
> > > I don't think people will use a library-based solution for for loops,=
=20
> even=20
> > > if one was adopted.  They will just continue to use the general for=
=20
> loop as=20
> > > they do now, as it is shorter and doesn't require an include.  As=20
> evidence I=20
> > > give you the fact that the library-based solution is easy to=20
> implement, and=20
> > > yet we haven't seen any existing practice of it.=20
>
> I don't know how widely Boost's irange is used; the file has copyright=20
> 2010 and is not constexpr friendly, so maybe that's a symptom that it=20
> is no very used.=20
>

I think that's true of most, if not all, of Boost.Range. The Range library=
=20
is in an odd development place, since its primary maintainer is developing=
=20
the next version <https://github.com/ericniebler/range-v3>, which I think=
=20
is attempting to align with his Range TS proposal.

So it hasn't seen much work. Range v3 has view::ints and view::iota=20
<https://ericniebler.github.io/range-v3/#range-views>, which serve the same=
=20
purpose as this, but is more C++11-friendly, with constexpr and so forth.=
=20
Though I think it's still limited to C++11, to try to be widely compatible=
=20
across compiler versions.

>=20
> > Existing practice is not that hard to find, it's right where one would=
=20
> expect it=20
> > to be:=20
> >=20
> http://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_60_0/libs/range/doc/html/range/reference/=
ranges/irange.html=20
>
> I don't think we need this feature at all.


Well, we kinda do; there's a reason why Range v3 includes it. But the main=
=20
motivation for it is not for using range-based `for` to iterate over a=20
sequence of integers. It *can* do that, but it's main purpose is to be able=
=20
to generate a range of numbers, which can then be used in range adapters,=
=20
manipulators, and the like.

So whether you expend energy on it or not, we *will* be seeing it sooner or=
=20
later. Indeed, it's probably best to let the various Range TS proposals=20
sort it out, since they're the ones who will most need it.
=20

> But if it's decided that=20
> C++ has to make room for it, I do prefer the library solution rather=20
> than the core language one. I said before I was going to write a=20
> library version proposal, but now that I think this better, I won't. I=20
> think we should focus our energy in relevant nowadays problems, like=20
> concepts, contracts, etc., rather than something that has been being=20
> done since 40 years ago and everybody is used to without complain,=20
> just to avoid a few keystrokes.=20
> But that's my humble oppinion.
>

--=20

---=20
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ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
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On Sunday, January 17, 2016 at 9:35:27 PM UTC-5, dgutson wrote:<blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">El 17/1/2016 21:53, &quot;Ville Voutilaine=
n&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto=
=3D"lxrI7rQ2FwAJ" rel=3D"nofollow" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;javascri=
pt:&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;javascript:&#39;;return =
true;">ville.vo...@gmail.com</a>&gt; escribi=C3=B3:
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; On 18 January 2016 at 02:24, Andrew Tomazos &lt;<a href=3D"javascr=
ipt:" target=3D"_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto=3D"lxrI7rQ2FwAJ" rel=3D"nofol=
low" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;" onclick=
=3D"this.href=3D&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;">andrew...@gmail.com</a>=
&gt; wrote:
<br>&gt; &gt; On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 11:56 PM, dgutson . &lt;<a href=3D"ja=
vascript:" target=3D"_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto=3D"lxrI7rQ2FwAJ" rel=3D"=
nofollow" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;" on=
click=3D"this.href=3D&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;">daniel...@gmail.co=
m</a>&gt; wrote:
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt;
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; I humbly suggest you to focus your efforts in a library-v=
ersion proposal.
<br>&gt; &gt; I don&#39;t think people will use a library-based solution fo=
r for loops, even
<br>&gt; &gt; if one was adopted. =C2=A0They will just continue to use the =
general for loop as
<br>&gt; &gt; they do now, as it is shorter and doesn&#39;t require an incl=
ude. =C2=A0As evidence I
<br>&gt; &gt; give you the fact that the library-based solution is easy to =
implement, and
<br>&gt; &gt; yet we haven&#39;t seen any existing practice of it.
<br>
<br>I don&#39;t know how widely Boost&#39;s irange is used; the file has co=
pyright
<br>2010 and is not constexpr friendly, so maybe that&#39;s a symptom that =
it
<br>is no very used.
<br></blockquote><div><br>I think that&#39;s true of most, if not all, of B=
oost.Range. The Range library is in an odd development place, since its pri=
mary maintainer is developing the <a href=3D"https://github.com/ericniebler=
/range-v3">next version</a>, which I think is attempting to align with his =
Range TS proposal.<br><br>So it hasn&#39;t seen much work. Range v3 has <a =
href=3D"https://ericniebler.github.io/range-v3/#range-views">view::ints and=
 view::iota</a>, which serve the same purpose as this, but is more C++11-fr=
iendly, with constexpr and so forth. Though I think it&#39;s still limited =
to C++11, to try to be widely compatible across compiler versions.<br><br><=
/div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8e=
x;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">&gt;
<br>&gt; Existing practice is not that hard to find, it&#39;s right where o=
ne would expect it
<br>&gt; to be:
<br>&gt; <a href=3D"http://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_60_0/libs/range/doc/htm=
l/range/reference/ranges/irange.html" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" on=
mousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fww=
w.boost.org%2Fdoc%2Flibs%2F1_60_0%2Flibs%2Frange%2Fdoc%2Fhtml%2Frange%2Fref=
erence%2Franges%2Firange.html\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEtX4MHZH83=
Wr5Ju0Snt19rEfIcSg&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;http://ww=
w.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.boost.org%2Fdoc%2Flibs%2F1_60_0%2Flib=
s%2Frange%2Fdoc%2Fhtml%2Frange%2Freference%2Franges%2Firange.html\46sa\75D\=
46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEtX4MHZH83Wr5Ju0Snt19rEfIcSg&#39;;return true;">h=
ttp://www.boost.org/doc/libs/<wbr>1_60_0/libs/range/doc/html/<wbr>range/ref=
erence/ranges/irange.<wbr>html</a>
<br>
<br>I don&#39;t think we need this feature at all.</blockquote><div><br>Wel=
l, we kinda do; there&#39;s a reason why Range v3 includes it. But the main=
 motivation for it is not for using range-based `for` to iterate over a seq=
uence of integers. It <i>can</i> do that, but it&#39;s main purpose is to b=
e able to generate a range of numbers, which can then be used in range adap=
ters, manipulators, and the like.<br><br>So whether you expend energy on it=
 or not, we <i>will</i> be seeing it sooner or later. Indeed, it&#39;s prob=
ably best to let the various Range TS proposals sort it out, since they&#39=
;re the ones who will most need it.<br>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid=
;padding-left: 1ex;">But if it&#39;s decided that
<br>C++ has to make room for it, I do prefer the library solution rather
<br>than the core language one. I said before I was going to write a
<br>library version proposal, but now that I think this better, I won&#39;t=
.. I
<br>think we should focus our energy in relevant nowadays problems, like
<br>concepts, contracts, etc., rather than something that has been being
<br>done since 40 years ago and everybody is used to without complain,
<br>just to avoid a few keystrokes.
<br>But that&#39;s my humble oppinion.<br></blockquote>

<p></p>

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On Sunday, January 17, 2016 at 7:24:25 PM UTC-5, Andrew Tomazos wrote:
>
> On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 11:56 PM, dgutson . <daniel...@gmail.com
> <javascript:>> wrote:
>
>> I humbly suggest you to focus your efforts in a library-version proposal.
>>
>
> I don't think people will use a library-based solution for for loops, even
> if one was adopted.  They will just continue to use the general for loop as
> they do now, as it is shorter and doesn't require an include.
>

How much shorter it is depends on how you name your counting variable:

for(int i : std::irange(0, 50))

for(int i = 0; i < 50; ++i)

That's 4 characters shorter. So if the counting variable is more than 3
letters long, the `irange` version is shorter. And judicious use of `using`
can make the `irange` version *always* shorter.

As evidence I give you the fact that the library-based solution is easy to
> implement, and yet we haven't seen any existing practice of it.
>

Have you actually tried to implement a genuine C++ random access iterator?
You have to not only implement the various methods and member operators,
you have to implement overrides of free functions like `advance`,
`distance`, `next`, etc.

And of course without Concepts, there's pretty much no way to *know* that
you've gotten it right, that you haven't accidentally missed something.

I would be hesitant to call that "easy to implement". Sure, if you take
shortcuts, you could get away with something not entirely terrible. We're
not talking about the complexity of implementing a `variant` or something.
But it's far from trivial.

All of that isn't worth implementing for one project, just over something
as trivial as a loop over a range of integers. If it already existed, sure.

The other thing is how invisible such code tends to be. Many people who
know about Boost and even Boost.Range don't know about `irange`.

If it were part of the C++ core guidelines, I rather suspect things would
be different.

In short, there are plenty of reasons why this isn't common. Most of these
reasons would be solved by having it in the standard library.

That's hardly a guarantee that it will replace the old way. But quite
frankly, replacing old loops is a pipe dream. Most people are not going to
rewrite perfectly functioning code for no reason. The best you could do
under any such goal is to get people writhing *new* loops to use the new
syntax.

And thanks to range-based, there aren't nearly that many loops that could
use what you're suggesting.

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<br><br>On Sunday, January 17, 2016 at 7:24:25 PM UTC-5, Andrew Tomazos wro=
te:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;=
border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 11:56 PM, dgutson . <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailt=
o=3D"SkW7d44vFwAJ" rel=3D"nofollow" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;javascr=
ipt:&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;javascript:&#39;;return=
 true;">daniel...@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-l=
eft:1ex">I humbly suggest you to focus your efforts in a=C2=A0library-versi=
on proposal.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I don&#39;t think people w=
ill use a library-based solution for for loops, even if one was adopted.=C2=
=A0 They will just continue to use the general for loop as they do now, as =
it is shorter and doesn&#39;t require an include.</div></div></div></div></=
blockquote><div><br>How much shorter it is depends on how you name your cou=
nting variable:<br><br><div class=3D"prettyprint" style=3D"background-color=
: rgb(250, 250, 250); border-color: rgb(187, 187, 187); border-style: solid=
; border-width: 1px; word-wrap: break-word;"><code class=3D"prettyprint"><d=
iv class=3D"subprettyprint"><span style=3D"color: #008;" class=3D"styled-by=
-prettify">for</span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-pretti=
fy">(</span><span style=3D"color: #008;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">int</=
span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> i </span><s=
pan style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">:</span><span style=
=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> std</span><span style=3D"co=
lor: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">::</span><span style=3D"color: #00=
0;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">irange</span><span style=3D"color: #660;" =
class=3D"styled-by-prettify">(</span><span style=3D"color: #066;" class=3D"=
styled-by-prettify">0</span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by=
-prettify">,</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify=
"> </span><span style=3D"color: #066;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">50</spa=
n><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">))</span><span =
style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"><br><br></span><span st=
yle=3D"color: #008;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">for</span><span style=3D"=
color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">(</span><span style=3D"color: #0=
08;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">int</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" cl=
ass=3D"styled-by-prettify"> i </span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"=
styled-by-prettify">=3D</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-=
by-prettify"> </span><span style=3D"color: #066;" class=3D"styled-by-pretti=
fy">0</span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">;</sp=
an><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> i </span><spa=
n style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">&lt;</span><span styl=
e=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> </span><span style=3D"colo=
r: #066;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">50</span><span style=3D"color: #660;=
" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">;</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=
=3D"styled-by-prettify"> </span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"style=
d-by-prettify">++</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-pre=
ttify">i</span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">)<=
/span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"><br></span>=
</div></code></div><br>That&#39;s 4 characters shorter. So if the counting =
variable is more than 3 letters long, the `irange` version is shorter. And =
judicious use of `using` can make the `irange` version <i>always</i> shorte=
r.<br><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin=
-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"lt=
r"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>As evidence I give you the fact tha=
t the library-based solution is easy to implement, and yet we haven&#39;t s=
een any existing practice of it.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><=
br>Have you actually tried to implement a genuine C++ random access iterato=
r? You have to not only implement the various methods and member operators,=
 you have to implement overrides of free functions like `advance`, `distanc=
e`, `next`, etc.<br><br>And of course without Concepts, there&#39;s pretty =
much no way to <i>know</i> that you&#39;ve gotten it right, that you haven&=
#39;t accidentally missed something.<br><br>I would be hesitant to call tha=
t &quot;easy to implement&quot;. Sure, if you take shortcuts, you could get=
 away with something not entirely terrible. We&#39;re not talking about the=
 complexity of implementing a `variant` or something. But it&#39;s far from=
 trivial.<br><br>All of that isn&#39;t worth implementing for one project, =
just over something as trivial as a loop over a range of integers. If it al=
ready existed, sure.<br><br>The other thing is how invisible such code tend=
s to be. Many people who know about Boost and even Boost.Range don&#39;t kn=
ow about `irange`.<br><br>If it were part of the C++ core guidelines, I rat=
her suspect things would be different.<br><br>In short, there are plenty of=
 reasons why this isn&#39;t common. Most of these reasons would be solved b=
y having it in the standard library.<br><br>That&#39;s hardly a guarantee t=
hat it will replace the old way. But quite frankly, replacing old loops is =
a pipe dream. Most people are not going to rewrite perfectly functioning co=
de for no reason. The best you could do under any such goal is to get peopl=
e writhing <i>new</i> loops to use the new syntax.<br><br>And thanks to ran=
ge-based, there aren&#39;t nearly that many loops that could use what you&#=
39;re suggesting.</div><br>

<p></p>

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------=_Part_238_2006548636.1453092280566--
------=_Part_237_1060530553.1453092280565--

.

> Have you actually tried to implement a genuine C++ random access
> iterator?  You have to not only implement the various methods and
> member operators, you have to implement overrides of free functions
> like `advance`, `distance`, `next`, etc.

I'm afraid that this is going a little off-topic here but I have never
overloaded `advance`, `distance`, `next`, etc for my own iterators.
Aren't the iterator traits supposed to allow the standard versions to
generate optimal code for my iterators, too?

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.

On 18 January 2016 at 07:17, Moritz Klammler <moritz.klammler@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Have you actually tried to implement a genuine C++ random access
>> iterator?  You have to not only implement the various methods and
>> member operators, you have to implement overrides of free functions
>> like `advance`, `distance`, `next`, etc.
>
> I'm afraid that this is going a little off-topic here but I have never
> overloaded `advance`, `distance`, `next`, etc for my own iterators.
> Aren't the iterator traits supposed to allow the standard versions to
> generate optimal code for my iterators, too?

Yes. You don't need to overload nor specialize advance/distance/next, just
have the nested typedefs that [iterator.traits] mentions (either directly or via
inheritance) and your iterator will fit right in, including
performance optimizations.

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--001a113ecbba9348a20529975982
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

I'm not necessarily looking for this, but the suggestions in this thread
made me wonder if extending the fold expressions to allow something like
this:

for(auto n : {32...65})
   f(n);

.... to be equivalent to such a thing as:

for(auto n : { 32, 33, 34, ... 64, 65}) // the ... is informal here,
nothing more
   f(n);

.... might not be suitable for those who want the feature, and maybe useful
elsewhere, such as replacing:

vector<int> v(100);
iota(begin(v), end(v), 1);

....with:

vector<int> v{ 1...100 };

.... which could be an improvement, I guess. After all, we do allow trailing
operands in fold expressions for some operators.

Just a thought, that being said, not a proposal for the moment. Cheers!


2016-01-18 1:00 GMT-05:00 Ville Voutilainen <ville.voutilainen@gmail.com>:

> On 18 January 2016 at 07:17, Moritz Klammler <moritz.klammler@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> Have you actually tried to implement a genuine C++ random access
> >> iterator?  You have to not only implement the various methods and
> >> member operators, you have to implement overrides of free functions
> >> like `advance`, `distance`, `next`, etc.
> >
> > I'm afraid that this is going a little off-topic here but I have never
> > overloaded `advance`, `distance`, `next`, etc for my own iterators.
> > Aren't the iterator traits supposed to allow the standard versions to
> > generate optimal code for my iterators, too?
>
> Yes. You don't need to overload nor specialize advance/distance/next, just
> have the nested typedefs that [iterator.traits] mentions (either directly
> or via
> inheritance) and your iterator will fit right in, including
> performance optimizations.
>
> --
>
> ---
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
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> email to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org.
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><di=
v>I&#39;m not necessarily looking for this, but the suggestions in this thr=
ead made me wonder if extending the fold expressions to allow something lik=
e this:<br><br></div>for(auto n : {32...65})<br></div>=C2=A0=C2=A0 f(n);<br=
><br></div>... to be equivalent to such a thing as:<br><br></div>for(auto n=
 : { 32, 33, 34, ... 64, 65}) // the ... is informal here, nothing more<br>=
</div>=C2=A0=C2=A0 f(n);<br><br></div>... might not be suitable for those w=
ho want the feature, and maybe useful elsewhere, such as replacing:<br><br>=
</div>vector&lt;int&gt; v(100);<br></div>iota(begin(v), end(v), 1);<br><br>=
</div>...with:<br><br></div>vector&lt;int&gt; v{ 1...100 };<br><br></div>..=
.. which could be an improvement, I guess. After all, we do allow trailing o=
perands in fold expressions for some operators.<br><br></div>Just a thought=
, that being said, not a proposal for the moment. Cheers!<br><br></div><div=
 class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2016-01-18 1:00 GMT-0=
5:00 Ville Voutilainen <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ville.voutil=
ainen@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">ville.voutilainen@gmail.com</a>&gt;</spa=
n>:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-=
left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D"">On 18 January 2016 a=
t 07:17, Moritz Klammler &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:moritz.klammler@gmail.com">m=
oritz.klammler@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; Have you actually tried to implement a genuine C++ random access<b=
r>
&gt;&gt; iterator?=C2=A0 You have to not only implement the various methods=
 and<br>
&gt;&gt; member operators, you have to implement overrides of free function=
s<br>
&gt;&gt; like `advance`, `distance`, `next`, etc.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I&#39;m afraid that this is going a little off-topic here but I have n=
ever<br>
&gt; overloaded `advance`, `distance`, `next`, etc for my own iterators.<br=
>
&gt; Aren&#39;t the iterator traits supposed to allow the standard versions=
 to<br>
&gt; generate optimal code for my iterators, too?<br>
<br>
</span>Yes. You don&#39;t need to overload nor specialize advance/distance/=
next, just<br>
have the nested typedefs that [iterator.traits] mentions (either directly o=
r via<br>
inheritance) and your iterator will fit right in, including<br>
performance optimizations.<br>
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
--<br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

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--001a113ecbba9348a20529975982--

.

--047d7ba972223cb69f052998d39a
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Yes this is a good idea (a binary range operator) and others have suggested
it.  I do not consider it mutually exclusive with my proposal.  I think:

   for (int i : N)

is better than

   for (int i : {0...N-1})

but certainly the later is more flexible and can be used in other places
than a for loop:

   std::vector<int> v = {0...N-1};

That's why I think we should have both things.

The reason for the difference is that on the RHS of a for loop we have a
"linguistic context" that expects something "range-like".  When you use an
integral expression there it is reasonable to conceptually contextually
convert it the index sequence of N (0,1,2,...,N-1).

Another completely different way of looking at it is that

   for (int i : N)
     stmt;

means repeat stmt N times.  Enumerate the iterations with their zero-based
index, and store this iteration index in i.

That's why I'm also considering proposing:

   for (N)
     stmt

to mean repeat stmt N times.  It's now easy to see the relationship between
this and the previous.  This is what I called a Repetition Statement.  The
previous is what I call an Indexed Repetition Statement.

Even without the statistical evidence yet we can start to develop an
intuition for what makes iteration over the "index sequence" 0,1,2,...,N-1
special.  It is because it is the zero-based index of the iteration.  (The
programmers thinking is "inverted" from how we have been thinking about it.)

On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 9:15 AM, Patrice Roy <patricer@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm not necessarily looking for this, but the suggestions in this thread
> made me wonder if extending the fold expressions to allow something like
> this:
>
> for(auto n : {32...65})
>    f(n);
>
> ... to be equivalent to such a thing as:
>
> for(auto n : { 32, 33, 34, ... 64, 65}) // the ... is informal here,
> nothing more
>    f(n);
>
> ... might not be suitable for those who want the feature, and maybe useful
> elsewhere, such as replacing:
>
> vector<int> v(100);
> iota(begin(v), end(v), 1);
>
> ...with:
>
> vector<int> v{ 1...100 };
>
> ... which could be an improvement, I guess. After all, we do allow
> trailing operands in fold expressions for some operators.
>
> Just a thought, that being said, not a proposal for the moment. Cheers!
>
>
> 2016-01-18 1:00 GMT-05:00 Ville Voutilainen <ville.voutilainen@gmail.com>:
>
>> On 18 January 2016 at 07:17, Moritz Klammler <moritz.klammler@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >> Have you actually tried to implement a genuine C++ random access
>> >> iterator?  You have to not only implement the various methods and
>> >> member operators, you have to implement overrides of free functions
>> >> like `advance`, `distance`, `next`, etc.
>> >
>> > I'm afraid that this is going a little off-topic here but I have never
>> > overloaded `advance`, `distance`, `next`, etc for my own iterators.
>> > Aren't the iterator traits supposed to allow the standard versions to
>> > generate optimal code for my iterators, too?
>>
>> Yes. You don't need to overload nor specialize advance/distance/next, just
>> have the nested typedefs that [iterator.traits] mentions (either directly
>> or via
>> inheritance) and your iterator will fit right in, including
>> performance optimizations.
>>
>> --
>>
>> ---
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org.
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>> https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/group/std-proposals/.
>>
>
> --
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Yes this is a good idea (a binary range operator) and othe=
rs have suggested it.=C2=A0 I do not consider it mutually exclusive with my=
 proposal.=C2=A0 I think:<div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0for (int i : N)</=
div><div><br></div><div>is better than</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0for (int i : {0...N-1})</div><div><br></div><div>but certainly the later=
 is more flexible and can be used in other places than a for loop:</div><di=
v><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0std::vector&lt;int&gt; v =3D {0...N-1};</div>=
<div><br></div><div>That&#39;s why I think we should have both things.</div=
><div><br></div><div>The reason for the difference is that on the RHS of a =
for loop we have a &quot;linguistic context&quot; that expects something &q=
uot;range-like&quot;.=C2=A0 When you use an integral expression there it is=
 reasonable to conceptually contextually convert it the index sequence of N=
 (0,1,2,...,N-1).</div><div><br></div><div>Another completely different way=
 of looking at it is that</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0for (int i =
: N)</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0stmt;</div><div><br></div><div>means rep=
eat stmt N times.=C2=A0 Enumerate the iterations with their zero-based inde=
x, and store this iteration index in i.</div><div><br></div><div>That&#39;s=
 why I&#39;m also considering proposing:</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0for (N)</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0stmt</div><div><br></div><div>t=
o mean repeat stmt N times.=C2=A0 It&#39;s now easy to see the relationship=
 between this and the previous.=C2=A0 This is what I called a Repetition St=
atement.=C2=A0 The previous is what I call an Indexed Repetition Statement.=
<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Even wi=
thout the statistical evidence yet we can start to develop an intuition for=
 what makes iteration over the &quot;index sequence&quot; 0,1,2,...,N-1 spe=
cial.=C2=A0 It is because it is the zero-based index of the iteration. =C2=
=A0(The programmers thinking is &quot;inverted&quot; from how we have been =
thinking about it.)</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote">On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 9:15 AM, Patrice Roy <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:patricer@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">patricer@gmail.com<=
/a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><d=
iv><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div>I&#39;m not neces=
sarily looking for this, but the suggestions in this thread made me wonder =
if extending the fold expressions to allow something like this:<br><br></di=
v>for(auto n : {32...65})<br></div>=C2=A0=C2=A0 f(n);<br><br></div>... to b=
e equivalent to such a thing as:<br><br></div>for(auto n : { 32, 33, 34, ..=
.. 64, 65}) // the ... is informal here, nothing more<br></div>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
f(n);<br><br></div>... might not be suitable for those who want the feature=
, and maybe useful elsewhere, such as replacing:<br><br></div>vector&lt;int=
&gt; v(100);<br></div>iota(begin(v), end(v), 1);<br><br></div>...with:<br><=
br></div>vector&lt;int&gt; v{ 1...100 };<br><br></div>... which could be an=
 improvement, I guess. After all, we do allow trailing operands in fold exp=
ressions for some operators.<br><br></div>Just a thought, that being said, =
not a proposal for the moment. Cheers!<br><br></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><=
div class=3D"h5"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
2016-01-18 1:00 GMT-05:00 Ville Voutilainen <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:ville.voutilainen@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">ville.voutilainen=
@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span>:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span>On 18 Ja=
nuary 2016 at 07:17, Moritz Klammler &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:moritz.klammler@=
gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">moritz.klammler@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; Have you actually tried to implement a genuine C++ random access<b=
r>
&gt;&gt; iterator?=C2=A0 You have to not only implement the various methods=
 and<br>
&gt;&gt; member operators, you have to implement overrides of free function=
s<br>
&gt;&gt; like `advance`, `distance`, `next`, etc.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I&#39;m afraid that this is going a little off-topic here but I have n=
ever<br>
&gt; overloaded `advance`, `distance`, `next`, etc for my own iterators.<br=
>
&gt; Aren&#39;t the iterator traits supposed to allow the standard versions=
 to<br>
&gt; generate optimal code for my iterators, too?<br>
<br>
</span>Yes. You don&#39;t need to overload nor specialize advance/distance/=
next, just<br>
have the nested typedefs that [iterator.traits] mentions (either directly o=
r via<br>
inheritance) and your iterator will fit right in, including<br>
performance optimizations.<br>
<div><div><br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

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On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 1:53 AM, Ville Voutilainen <
ville.voutilainen@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 18 January 2016 at 02:24, Andrew Tomazos <andrewtomazos@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 11:56 PM, dgutson . <danielgutson@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> I humbly suggest you to focus your efforts in a library-version
> proposal.
> > I don't think people will use a library-based solution for for loops,
> even
> > if one was adopted.  They will just continue to use the general for loop
> as
> > they do now, as it is shorter and doesn't require an include.  As
> evidence I
> > give you the fact that the library-based solution is easy to implement,
> and
> > yet we haven't seen any existing practice of it.  On the other hand, I
> think
> > the proposed dedicated syntax, which actually is a short-hand, and
> doesn't
> > require an include, would get used.
>
> Existing practice is not that hard to find, it's right where one would
> expect it
> to be:
>
> http://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_60_0/libs/range/doc/html/range/reference/ranges/irange.html


Sure, I mean existing practice of a facility like irange being used as `for
(int i : irange(N))` in lieu of `for (int i = 0; i < N; ++i)`.  My claim is
that a library-based solution is too heavyweight (longer syntax, requires
include, using declaration, library dependency) compared to `for (int i =
0; i < N; ++i)`, whereas `for (int i : N)` would (its shorter and doesn't
require all the stuff previously listed).

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On M=
on, Jan 18, 2016 at 1:53 AM, Ville Voutilainen <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:ville.voutilainen@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">ville.voutilaine=
n@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(2=
04,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"h5">On 18 January 2016 at 02:24, Andrew Tomazos &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:andrewtomazos@gmail.com">andrewtomazos@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 11:56 PM, dgutson . &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dani=
elgutson@gmail.com">danielgutson@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I humbly suggest you to focus your efforts in a library-version pr=
oposal.<br>
&gt; I don&#39;t think people will use a library-based solution for for loo=
ps, even<br>
&gt; if one was adopted.=C2=A0 They will just continue to use the general f=
or loop as<br>
&gt; they do now, as it is shorter and doesn&#39;t require an include.=C2=
=A0 As evidence I<br>
&gt; give you the fact that the library-based solution is easy to implement=
, and<br>
&gt; yet we haven&#39;t seen any existing practice of it.=C2=A0 On the othe=
r hand, I think<br>
&gt; the proposed dedicated syntax, which actually is a short-hand, and doe=
sn&#39;t<br>
&gt; require an include, would get used.<br>
<br>
</div></div>Existing practice is not that hard to find, it&#39;s right wher=
e one would expect it<br>
to be:<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_60_0/libs/range/doc/html/range/r=
eference/ranges/irange.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://ww=
w.boost.org/doc/libs/1_60_0/libs/range/doc/html/range/reference/ranges/iran=
ge.html</a></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Sure, I mean existing practice =
of a facility like irange being used as `for (int i : irange(N))` in lieu o=
f `for (int i =3D 0; i &lt; N; ++i)`.=C2=A0 My claim is that a library-base=
d solution is too heavyweight (longer syntax, requires include, using decla=
ration, library dependency) compared to `for (int i =3D 0; i &lt; N; ++i)`,=
 whereas `for (int i : N)` would (its shorter and doesn&#39;t require all t=
he stuff previously listed).</div><div><br></div></div></div></div>

<p></p>

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--089e013cc314301b12052999798a--

.

On 1/17/2016 9:24 PM, Andrew Tomazos wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 11:56 PM, dgutson . <danielgutson@gmail.com
> <mailto:danielgutson@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     I humbly suggest you to focus your efforts in a library-version
>     proposal.
>
>
> I don't think people will use a library-based solution for for loops,
> even if one was adopted.  They will just continue to use the general for
> loop as they do now, as it is shorter and doesn't require an include.

If this were to be the case, it suggests to me that there just isn't a=20
need for it.

> As evidence I give you the fact that the library-based solution is easy
> to implement, and yet we haven't seen any existing practice of it.

Oh, come on! That's so not fair to all the evidence you've gathered...

In the past few days we've learned about several library-based existing=20
solutions, and we've found out that some of them even predate C++11 and=20
the range-based for-loop since it's not just about saving a few keystrokes.

> On
> the other hand, I think the proposed dedicated syntax, which actually is
> a short-hand, and doesn't require an include, would get used.

Can you back that claim up somehow?

For instance, the range-based for-loop proposal (N1868) says all the=20
cool languages are doing it, and points at `BOOST_FOREACH` and=20
`Q_FOREACH` as evidence that people want it badly.

Regards,
--=20
Agust=C3=ADn K-ballo Berg=C3=A9.-
http://talesofcpp.fusionfenix.com

--=20

---=20
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.

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On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 1:04 PM, Agust=C3=ADn K-ballo Berg=C3=A9 <
kaballo86@hotmail.com> wrote:

> On 1/17/2016 9:24 PM, Andrew Tomazos wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 11:56 PM, dgutson . <danielgutson@gmail.com
>> <mailto:danielgutson@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>     I humbly suggest you to focus your efforts in a library-version
>>     proposal.
>>
>>
>> I don't think people will use a library-based solution for for loops,
>> even if one was adopted.  They will just continue to use the general for
>> loop as they do now, as it is shorter and doesn't require an include.
>>
>
> If this were to be the case, it suggests to me that there just isn't a
> need for it.
>

Given the three solutions:

   1. for (int i =3D 0; i < N; ++i)
   2. #include <whatever/irange> using whatever::irange;  for (int i :
irange(N))
   3. for (int i : N)

The evidence suggests [1] is preferred to [2].  I disagree that we can
conclude from that that [1] would be preferred to [3].

As evidence I give you the fact that the library-based solution is easy
>> to implement, and yet we haven't seen any existing practice of it.
>>
>
> Oh, come on! That's so not fair to all the evidence you've gathered...
>
> In the past few days we've learned about several library-based existing
> solutions, and we've found out that some of them even predate C++11 and t=
he
> range-based for-loop since it's not just about saving a few keystrokes.


I mean an existing practice of *usage* of such a facility.  People
generally use [1] rather than [2], despite various versions of [2] being
available and easy to implement.

On
>> the other hand, I think the proposed dedicated syntax, which actually is
>> a short-hand, and doesn't require an include, would get used.
>>
>
> Can you back that claim up somehow?
>
> For instance, the range-based for-loop proposal (N1868) says all the cool
> languages are doing it, and points at `BOOST_FOREACH` and `Q_FOREACH` as
> evidence that people want it badly.


That's hard to do.  It's very hard to have existing practice of proposed
core solutions of this kind, very few even consider using non-standard
extensions, so things that would be successful as core solutions, but not
with the library overhead, have to be based on speculation to a certain
extent.

That said, I intend to find out how often [1] occurs, and what percentage
of all for statements fit the pattern of [1].  The claim that [3] will be
preferred to [1], even though [2] wasn't, I expect mostly to be based on an
appeal to intuition though - unless someone can think of a better way of
testing this claim.

--=20

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On M=
on, Jan 18, 2016 at 1:04 PM, Agust=C3=ADn K-ballo Berg=C3=A9 <span dir=3D"l=
tr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kaballo86@hotmail.com" target=3D"_blank">kaballo8=
6@hotmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
yle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span=
 class=3D"">On 1/17/2016 9:24 PM, Andrew Tomazos wrote:<br>
</span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-=
left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D"">
On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 11:56 PM, dgutson . &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:danielgut=
son@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">danielgutson@gmail.com</a><br></span><span=
 class=3D"">
&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:danielgutson@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dani=
elgutson@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I humbly suggest you to focus your efforts in a library-versi=
on<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 proposal.<br>
<br>
<br>
I don&#39;t think people will use a library-based solution for for loops,<b=
r>
even if one was adopted.=C2=A0 They will just continue to use the general f=
or<br>
loop as they do now, as it is shorter and doesn&#39;t require an include.<b=
r>
</span></blockquote>
<br>
If this were to be the case, it suggests to me that there just isn&#39;t a =
need for it.<span class=3D""><br></span></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Gi=
ven the three solutions:</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A01. for (int =
i =3D 0; i &lt; N; ++i)</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A02. #include &lt;whatever/ira=
nge&gt; using whatever::irange; =C2=A0for (int i : irange(N))</div><div>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A03. for (int i : N)</div><div><br></div><div>The evidence suggests=
 [1] is preferred to [2].=C2=A0 I disagree that we can conclude from that t=
hat [1] would be preferred to [3].</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding=
-left:1ex"><span class=3D"">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
As evidence I give you the fact that the library-based solution is easy<br>
to implement, and yet we haven&#39;t seen any existing practice of it.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></span>
Oh, come on! That&#39;s so not fair to all the evidence you&#39;ve gathered=
....<br>
<br>
In the past few days we&#39;ve learned about several library-based existing=
 solutions, and we&#39;ve found out that some of them even predate C++11 an=
d the range-based for-loop since it&#39;s not just about saving a few keyst=
rokes.</blockquote><div><br></div><div>I mean an existing practice of *usag=
e* of such a facility.=C2=A0 People generally use [1] rather than [2], desp=
ite various versions of [2] being available and easy to implement.</div><di=
v><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D"">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
On<br>
the other hand, I think the proposed dedicated syntax, which actually is<br=
>
a short-hand, and doesn&#39;t require an include, would get used.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></span>
Can you back that claim up somehow?<br>
<br>
For instance, the range-based for-loop proposal (N1868) says all the cool l=
anguages are doing it, and points at `BOOST_FOREACH` and `Q_FOREACH` as evi=
dence that people want it badly.</blockquote><div>=C2=A0</div><div>That&#39=
;s hard to do.=C2=A0 It&#39;s very hard to have existing practice of propos=
ed core solutions of this kind, very few even consider using non-standard e=
xtensions, so things that would be successful as core solutions, but not wi=
th the library overhead, have to be based on speculation to a certain exten=
t.</div><div><br></div><div>That said, I intend to find out how often [1] o=
ccurs, and what percentage of all for statements fit the pattern of [1].=C2=
=A0 The claim that [3] will be preferred to [1], even though [2] wasn&#39;t=
, I expect mostly to be based on an appeal to intuition though - unless som=
eone can think of a better way of testing this claim.</div><div><br></div><=
/div></div></div>

<p></p>

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--089e01229a76d7e6f505299bdbf3--

.

On 1/18/2016 10:37 AM, Andrew Tomazos wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 1:04 PM, Agust=C3=ADn K-ballo Berg=C3=A9
> <kaballo86@hotmail.com <mailto:kaballo86@hotmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     On 1/17/2016 9:24 PM, Andrew Tomazos wrote:
>
>         On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 11:56 PM, dgutson .
>         <danielgutson@gmail.com <mailto:danielgutson@gmail.com>
>         <mailto:danielgutson@gmail.com <mailto:danielgutson@gmail.com>>>
>         wrote:
>
>              I humbly suggest you to focus your efforts in a library-vers=
ion
>              proposal.
>
>
>         I don't think people will use a library-based solution for for
>         loops,
>         even if one was adopted.  They will just continue to use the
>         general for
>         loop as they do now, as it is shorter and doesn't require an
>         include.
>
>
>     If this were to be the case, it suggests to me that there just isn't
>     a need for it.
>
>
> Given the three solutions:
>
>     1. for (int i =3D 0; i < N; ++i)
>     2. #include <whatever/irange> using whatever::irange;  for (int i :
> irange(N))
>     3. for (int i : N)
>
> The evidence suggests [1] is preferred to [2].  I disagree that we can
> conclude from that that [1] would be preferred to [3].

Agreed, we cannot conclude anything about [3] from the evidence on [1]=20
and [2]. It's just speculation on both sides.

>         As evidence I give you the fact that the library-based solution
>         is easy
>         to implement, and yet we haven't seen any existing practice of it=
..
>
>
>     Oh, come on! That's so not fair to all the evidence you've gathered..=
..
>
>     In the past few days we've learned about several library-based
>     existing solutions, and we've found out that some of them even
>     predate C++11 and the range-based for-loop since it's not just about
>     saving a few keystrokes.
>
>
> I mean an existing practice of *usage* of such a facility.  People
> generally use [1] rather than [2], despite various versions of [2] being
> available and easy to implement.

Some people claim to have implemented the library solution for personal=20
use, which would suggest they do use such a facility. Perhaps they do so=20
only outside a range-based for-loop, since that has its merits too, so=20
it would be worth a follow up with them.

Personally, I am not convinced of the readability advantages of the=20
proposed solution over a plain for loop, although that is entirely=20
subjective. And I don't think maybe sometimes saving a few keystrokes is=20
a good motivation.

That said, I have been known to occasionally use

     for (int i : {1, 2, 4, 8}) { /*...*/ }

for clarity given statically known small Ns, even when that requires an=20
additional include.

>         On
>         the other hand, I think the proposed dedicated syntax, which
>         actually is
>         a short-hand, and doesn't require an include, would get used.
>
>
>     Can you back that claim up somehow?
>
>     For instance, the range-based for-loop proposal (N1868) says all the
>     cool languages are doing it, and points at `BOOST_FOREACH` and
>     `Q_FOREACH` as evidence that people want it badly.
>
> That's hard to do.  It's very hard to have existing practice of proposed
> core solutions of this kind, very few even consider using non-standard
> extensions, so things that would be successful as core solutions, but
> not with the library overhead, have to be based on speculation to a
> certain extent.

I disagree. The existence of MSVC's `for each` says otherwise, as does=20
the fact that Qt dare to define the `foreach` and `forever`=20
"pseudo-keywords". Note in particular that while the MSVC's extension=20
has no library overhead nor requires any additional includes, the Qt=20
approach has (or had?) and that didn't stop it from being adopted.

Regardless, you still have the option of looking at what other languages=20
are doing in this regard. For instance, Pascal has this:

     for i:=3D 1 to 10 do /*...*/;

while Python has this:

     for i in range(1, 11)

Regards,
--=20
Agust=C3=ADn K-ballo Berg=C3=A9.-
http://talesofcpp.fusionfenix.com

--=20

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als/.

.

On 2016-01-16 05:35, dgutson . wrote:
> But this facility has the following advantages:
>
>    1) the range can be returned by a function:
>        for(auto i : f() )

  int f() { return 5; }
  for (auto i : f())
    std::cout << i << std::endl;

....outputs:

  0
  1
  2
  3
  4

--
Matthew

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2016-01-18 15:34 GMT+03:30 Agust=C3=ADn K-ballo Berg=C3=A9 <kaballo86@hotma=
il.com>:

>
> For instance, the range-based for-loop proposal (N1868) says all the cool
> languages are doing it, and points at `BOOST_FOREACH` and `Q_FOREACH` as
> evidence that people want it badly.
>

=E2=80=8BYou just missed pre-c++11 std::for_each=E2=80=8B !!!!!!!

--=20
how am I supposed to end the twisted road of  your hair in such a dark
night??
unless the candle of your face does shed some light upon my way!!!

--=20

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"rtl"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial na=
rrow,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><=
div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">2016-01-18 15:34 GMT+03:30 Agust=
=C3=ADn K-ballo Berg=C3=A9 <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kaballo8=
6@hotmail.com" target=3D"_blank">kaballo86@hotmail.com</a>&gt;</span>:</div=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1=
px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br><div style=3D"direction:ltr">For instan=
ce, the range-based for-loop proposal (N1868) says all the cool languages a=
re doing it, and points at `BOOST_FOREACH` and `Q_FOREACH` as evidence that=
 people want it badly.</div></blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div style=
=3D"direction:ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:&#39;a=
rial narrow&#39;,sans-serif;font-size:large">=E2=80=8BYou just missed pre-c=
++11 std::for_each=E2=80=8B !!!!!!!</div></div><div style=3D"direction:ltr"=
><br></div>-- <br><div class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"rtl"><div><div=
 dir=3D"ltr">how am I supposed to end the twisted road of=C2=A0 your hair i=
n such a dark night??<br>unless the candle of your face does shed some ligh=
t upon my way!!!<br></div></div></div></div>
</div></div>

<p></p>

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--001a114a8696eccb7705299d8a0b--

.

On 2016-01-16 05:59, Sam Kellett wrote:
> what about the comma operator?
>
> auto operator,(int from, int to) -> std::numeric_range
> {
>   return {from, to, 1};
> }

Uh... won't that horribly break, oh, just about *all* existing C++ code?

(A UDL won't help, either, because it needs to work for any integer type.)

--
Matthew

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On Monday, January 18, 2016 at 9:45:11 AM UTC-5, Agust=C3=ADn K-ballo Berg=
=C3=A9=20
wrote:
>
> On 1/18/2016 10:37 AM, Andrew Tomazos wrote:=20
>
> >=20
> > That's hard to do.  It's very hard to have existing practice of propose=
d=20
> > core solutions of this kind, very few even consider using non-standard=
=20
> > extensions, so things that would be successful as core solutions, but=
=20
> > not with the library overhead, have to be based on speculation to a=20
> > certain extent.=20
>
> I disagree. The existence of MSVC's `for each` says otherwise, as does=20
> the fact that Qt dare to define the `foreach` and `forever`=20
> "pseudo-keywords". Note in particular that while the MSVC's extension=20
> has no library overhead nor requires any additional includes, the Qt=20
> approach has (or had?) and that didn't stop it from being adopted.=20
>
> Regardless, you still have the option of looking at what other languages=
=20
> are doing in this regard. For instance, Pascal has this:=20
>
>      for i:=3D 1 to 10 do /*...*/;=20
>
> while Python has this:=20
>
>      for i in range(1, 11)=20
>


Actually, that's a very good question.

Is there any prior art, any language or similar construct, where syntax of=
=20
the type this proposal proposes exists? Something of the form:

<loop inducer> <loop variable> <single integer>

Which results in looping from 0 to that number? If that's not the case, if=
=20
most languages require you to provide both the start and end point, then=20
having a language feature that only requires the end point could very=20
easily be confusing.

Python's range function provides this; a single value refers to the=20
terminus. At the same time, Range v3's `view::ints` and `view::iota` allow=
=20
a single value. But that value is an *initial* value, not an end-point.=20
That is, they produce an unbounded range that starts from the beginning.

So there seems to be some disagreement on what a single integer *ought* to=
=20
mean.

--=20

---=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
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mail to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org.
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Monday, January 18, 2016 at 9:45:11 AM UTC-5, Agust=C3=ADn K-ballo Berg=
=C3=A9 wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-le=
ft: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">On 1/18/2016 10:3=
7 AM, Andrew Tomazos wrote:
<br><br>&gt;
<br>&gt; That&#39;s hard to do. =C2=A0It&#39;s very hard to have existing p=
ractice of proposed
<br>&gt; core solutions of this kind, very few even consider using non-stan=
dard
<br>&gt; extensions, so things that would be successful as core solutions, =
but
<br>&gt; not with the library overhead, have to be based on speculation to =
a
<br>&gt; certain extent.
<br>
<br>I disagree. The existence of MSVC&#39;s `for each` says otherwise, as d=
oes=20
<br>the fact that Qt dare to define the `foreach` and `forever`=20
<br>&quot;pseudo-keywords&quot;. Note in particular that while the MSVC&#39=
;s extension=20
<br>has no library overhead nor requires any additional includes, the Qt=20
<br>approach has (or had?) and that didn&#39;t stop it from being adopted.
<br>
<br>Regardless, you still have the option of looking at what other language=
s=20
<br>are doing in this regard. For instance, Pascal has this:
<br>
<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0for i:=3D 1 to 10 do /*...*/;
<br>
<br>while Python has this:
<br>
<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0for i in range(1, 11)
<br></blockquote><div><br><br>Actually, that&#39;s a very good question.<br=
><br>Is there any prior art, any language or similar construct, where synta=
x of the type this proposal proposes exists? Something of the form:<br><br>=
<div class=3D"prettyprint" style=3D"background-color: rgb(250, 250, 250); b=
order-color: rgb(187, 187, 187); border-style: solid; border-width: 1px; wo=
rd-wrap: break-word;"><code class=3D"prettyprint"><div class=3D"subprettypr=
int"><span style=3D"color: #008;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">&lt;loop</sp=
an><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> </span><span =
style=3D"color: #606;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">inducer</span><span sty=
le=3D"color: #008;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">&gt;</span><span style=3D"=
color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> </span><span style=3D"color: #0=
08;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">&lt;loop</span><span style=3D"color: #000=
;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> </span><span style=3D"color: #606;" class=
=3D"styled-by-prettify">variable</span><span style=3D"color: #008;" class=
=3D"styled-by-prettify">&gt;</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"st=
yled-by-prettify"> </span><span style=3D"color: #008;" class=3D"styled-by-p=
rettify">&lt;single</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-p=
rettify"> </span><span style=3D"color: #606;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">=
integer</span><span style=3D"color: #008;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">&gt=
;</span></div></code></div><br>Which results in looping from 0 to that numb=
er? If that&#39;s not the case, if most languages require you to provide bo=
th the start and end point, then having a language feature that only requir=
es the end point could very easily be confusing.<br><br>Python&#39;s range =
function provides this; a single value refers to the terminus. At the same =
time, Range v3&#39;s `view::ints` and `view::iota` allow a single value. Bu=
t that value is an <i>initial</i> value, not an end-point. That is, they pr=
oduce an unbounded range that starts from the beginning.<br><br>So there se=
ems to be some disagreement on what a single integer <i>ought</i> to mean.<=
br></div>

<p></p>

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.

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On Monday, January 18, 2016 at 10:38:24 AM UTC-5, Farid Mehrabi wrote:

>
> 2016-01-18 15:34 GMT+03:30 Agust=C3=ADn K-ballo Berg=C3=A9 <kaba...@hotma=
il.com=20
> <javascript:>>:
>
>>
>> For instance, the range-based for-loop proposal (N1868) says all the coo=
l=20
>> languages are doing it, and points at `BOOST_FOREACH` and `Q_FOREACH` as=
=20
>> evidence that people want it badly.
>>
>
> =E2=80=8BYou just missed pre-c++11 std::for_each=E2=80=8B !!!!!!!
>

He was talking about prior art for range-based for. `std::for_each` is not=
=20
"range-based"; it's iterator-pair-based. You can't provide it with a single=
=20
range value; you have to provide it with two separate values, which makes=
=20
using it with temporary ranges troublesome.

--=20

---=20
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<div dir=3D"ltr">On Monday, January 18, 2016 at 10:38:24 AM UTC-5, Farid Me=
hrabi wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin=
-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"rt=
l"><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">2016-01-18 15:34 GM=
T+03:30 Agust=C3=ADn K-ballo Berg=C3=A9 <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"ja=
vascript:" target=3D"_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto=3D"mbbeu25hFwAJ" rel=3D"=
nofollow" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;" on=
click=3D"this.href=3D&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;">kaba...@hotmail.co=
m</a>&gt;</span>:</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br><div style=3D"dir=
ection:ltr">For instance, the range-based for-loop proposal (N1868) says al=
l the cool languages are doing it, and points at `BOOST_FOREACH` and `Q_FOR=
EACH` as evidence that people want it badly.</div></blockquote></div><br cl=
ear=3D"all"><div style=3D"direction:ltr"><div style=3D"font-family:&#39;ari=
al narrow&#39;,sans-serif;font-size:large">=E2=80=8BYou just missed pre-c++=
11 std::for_each=E2=80=8B !!!!!!!</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>=
<br>He was talking about prior art for range-based for. `std::for_each` is =
not &quot;range-based&quot;; it&#39;s iterator-pair-based. You can&#39;t pr=
ovide it with a single range value; you have to provide it with two separat=
e values, which makes using it with temporary ranges troublesome.<br></div>=
</div>

<p></p>

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--------------030109040208060804040808
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On 2016-01-16 04:38, Andrew Tomazos wrote:
> Please find attached a rough incomplete 2-page draft entitled "Proposal of
> Index-Based For Loop"
>
> Preliminary thoughts appreciated.

Do you propose this as a library feature or a language feature? (Yes, a
library solution, even for the syntax as written, is possible! See
attached.)

What about real numbers? A library function to construct a range
iterator from a value would be much more flexible (could include
non-default start, non-default step, accommodate real numbers...). Note:
I don't buy the "old style is more terse" argument; you can't use 'auto'
as the iterator type with the old-style for loop (not without negating
the "more terse" argument, at least).

(As for the non-default cases being less common, I've used the "default
case" dozens of times in many projects, and the non-default many fewer
times, often zero.)

In any case, I definitely think it's well past time we had something
like this standardized...

TBH, I think I'd like both. The common case is sufficiently common that
is does seem that it ought to Just Work. I don't see a reason not to go
with a pure library solution, though... anyone else?

> It can be shown that the number of general for statements in existing
> practice that have all these properties is very high (in a later
> revision of this proposal we will provide a concrete quantification
> of this proportion).

Uh... yeah. I'd show you examples in real code where I'm using a
range-iterator function fairly extensively, except I don't have
permission to release the code (yet). FWIW, some stats from a couple
projects:

  sloccount    indexrange uses
  2k           20+
  12k          ~40
  17k          ~80

....and I know I have other projects that, if I got the time to port to
indexrange, would likewise use it a lot.

--
Matthew

--

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--------------030109040208060804040808
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 name="indexrange.cpp"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: attachment;
 filename="indexrange.cpp"

#include <iostream>

using namespace std;

/*
template <typename T>
class index_range_t
{
public:
  class iterator
  {
  public:
    constexpr T operator*() const { return this->_value; }
    iterator& operator++() { this->_value +=3D this->_step; return *this;=
 }

    constexpr bool operator=3D=3D(const iterator& other) const
    { return this->_value =3D=3D other._value; }

    constexpr bool operator!=3D(const iterator& other) const
    { return this->_value !=3D other._value; }

  protected:
    friend class index_range_t;
    constexpr iterator(T value, T step) : _value{value}, _step(step) {}

    T _value, _step;
  };

  constexpr index_range_t(T count) :
    _begin{0}, _end{count}, _step{1} {}

  constexpr index_range_t(T begin, T end, T step) :
    _begin{begin}, _end{end}, _step{step} {}

  constexpr iterator begin() const { return { this->_begin, this->_step }=
; }
  constexpr iterator end() const { return { this->_end, this->_step }; }

protected:
  T _begin, _end, _step;
};

template <typename T>
constexpr auto index_range(T count) -> index_range_t<T>
{ return { count }; }

template <typename T>
constexpr auto index_range(T begin, T end, T step =3D 1) -> index_range_t=
<T>
{ return { begin, end, step }; }

int main()
{
  cout << "range(10)" << endl;
  for (auto const i : index_range(10))
    cout << i << endl;

  cout << "range(5, 10)" << endl;
  for (auto const i : index_range(5, 10))
    cout << i << endl;

  cout << "range(0, 10, 2)" << endl;
  for (auto const i : index_range(0, 10, 2))
    cout << i << endl;

  cout << "range(10, 0, -1)" << endl;
  for (auto const i : index_range(10, 0, -1))
    cout << i << endl;

  return 0;
}

/*/

template <typename T>
class index_iterator
{
public:
  constexpr index_iterator(T value) noexcept : _value{value} {}

  constexpr T operator*() const { return this->_value; }
  index_iterator& operator++() { ++this->_value; return *this; }

  constexpr bool operator=3D=3D(const index_iterator& other) const
  { return this->_value =3D=3D other._value; }

  constexpr bool operator!=3D(const index_iterator& other) const
  { return this->_value !=3D other._value; }

protected:
  T _value;
};

namespace std
{
  constexpr index_iterator<int> begin(int) noexcept { return { 0 }; }
  constexpr index_iterator<int> end(int value) noexcept { return { value =
}; }
}

int main()
{
  cout << "range(10)" << endl;
  for (auto const i : 10)
    cout << i << endl;

  return 0;
}

//*/

--------------030109040208060804040808--


.

On 1/18/2016 12:37 PM, Farid Mehrabi wrote:
>
>
> 2016-01-18 15:34 GMT+03:30 Agust=C3=ADn K-ballo Berg=C3=A9 <kaballo86@hot=
mail.com
> <mailto:kaballo86@hotmail.com>>:
>
>
>     For instance, the range-based for-loop proposal (N1868) says all the
>     cool languages are doing it, and points at `BOOST_FOREACH` and
>     `Q_FOREACH` as evidence that people want it badly.
>
>
> =E2=80=8BYou just missed pre-c++11 std::for_each=E2=80=8B !!!!!!!

I was not the author of that paper.

Regards,
--=20
Agust=C3=ADn K-ballo Berg=C3=A9.-
http://talesofcpp.fusionfenix.com

--=20

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.

On 2016-01-16 14:03, Nicol Bolas wrote:
> On Saturday, January 16, 2016 at 1:18:33 PM UTC-5, Andrew Tomazos wrote:
>> Why have a built-in + operator?
>
> ... is that *really* the best argument you can put forward for this? "Well,
> we did it with + and integers, why not do it with looping from 0 to X?"
> Seriously, who exactly do you expect to convince with that?
>
> People can argue that many things are "common-enough use cases". That
> *alone* is insufficient.
>
> One of the primary reasons why we added range-based for was because people
> *consistently* wrote range loops incorrectly. Common mistakes include using
> the slower (or non-existent) postfix ++ operator to increment the iterator
> and constantly calling the potentially expensive `end` function. And doing
> it correctly involves creating new scopes manually or leaking variables.

Index iteration solves many of the same problems. Using the inefficient
postfix operator (okay, for integers that's probably not really an
issue). Recomputing or having to store the end. Mismatch between the
iterator type and the sentinel value type. The latter in particular is
why I originally wrote my own library version of this in the first
place! (That, and implicit storing of the sentinel.) Because it's *hard*
to get right, otherwise, and much, *much* easier with an index iterator.
But if it's too painful to write, people won't use it.

Note that we don't need a language feature *even for the proposal as
written*. You really can write `for (auto i : 5)` *purely as a library
feature*. I provided a program that does exactly that in a different reply.

> What problem does your proposal solve? Are people frequently writing
> monotonic loops over the range [0, X) incorrectly?

Yes; see following example...

> The most frequent error I see with such loops is people accidentally
> modifying the loop counter.

  size_t complex_function();
  for (int i = 0; i < complex_function(); i++)

There are at least three mistakes in that line plus the ability to
accidentally modify the loop counter. All are eliminated in:

  for (auto const i : complex_function())

> Which can be resolved just fine with a library solution.

Well, we may agree there :-). Hopefully though I've provided a strong
motivation for having *some* solution get standardized. I'd *prefer*
implicit index iteration if the "range" of a range-based for is an
integer type, but I won't be heartbroken if I have to state that
explicitly. In either case, a library solution seems sufficient.

--
Matthew

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On 2016-01-17 19:24, Andrew Tomazos wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 11:56 PM, dgutson . wrote:
>> I humbly suggest you to focus your efforts in a library-version proposal.
>
> I don't think people will use a library-based solution for for loops, even
> if one was adopted.  They will just continue to use the general for loop as
> they do now, as it is shorter and doesn't require an include.

As one doing *exactly* that (using a library solution despite those
drawbacks), I humbly disagree :-).

> As evidence
> I give you the fact that the library-based solution is easy to implement,
> and yet we haven't seen any existing practice of it.

Then you are not looking in the right places. I'm using mine quite a
lot, thank you.

--
Matthew

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On 2016-01-17 23:44, Nicol Bolas wrote:
> That's hardly a guarantee that it will replace the old way. But quite
> frankly, replacing old loops is a pipe dream. Most people are not going to
> rewrite perfectly functioning code for no reason.

That's probably true, although I've been known to go through code bases
and ruthlessly modernize them. This is exactly one such change that's
part of that process.

> The best you could do under any such goal is to get people writhing
> *new* loops to use the new syntax.

The same is true of range-based for, no?

> And thanks to range-based, there aren't nearly that many loops that could
> use what you're suggesting.

I'm still writing plenty of them. Sometimes because I need the index
during iteration. Sometimes because I'm not iterating over a container,
but over a numeric range (a project I've been working on recently does a
*lot* of that).

--
Matthew

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.

On 2016-01-18 10:39, Matthew Woehlke wrote:
> FWIW, some stats from a couple projects:
>
>   sloccount    indexrange uses
>   2k           20+
>   12k          ~40
>   17k          ~80
>
> ...and I know I have other projects that, if I got the time to port to
> indexrange, would likewise use it a lot.

I should clarify: these are all projects that *also have range-based
for* (or equivalent work-arounds). So none of these occurrences are
things that could (or at least, would) use a non-index range-based for.

--
Matthew

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--089e01229a76a600ed05299df73c
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 4:54 PM, Matthew Woehlke <mwoehlke.floss@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On 2016-01-17 19:24, Andrew Tomazos wrote:
> > On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 11:56 PM, dgutson . wrote:
> >> I humbly suggest you to focus your efforts in a library-version
> proposal.
> >
> > I don't think people will use a library-based solution for for loops,
> even
> > if one was adopted.  They will just continue to use the general for loop
> as
> > they do now, as it is shorter and doesn't require an include.
>
> As one doing *exactly* that (using a library solution despite those
> drawbacks), I humbly disagree :-).
>
> > As evidence
> > I give you the fact that the library-based solution is easy to implement,
> > and yet we haven't seen any existing practice of it.
>
> Then you are not looking in the right places. I'm using mine quite a
> lot, thank you.
>

I have a corpus of 20,000 open source C/C++ projects that are shipping and
packaged totaling 2.5 million source files and 300M sloccount taken from a
popular Linux package repository.  It includes things like all of Qt,
boost, vtk, cern root, llvm, chromium, mozilla, to just name a tiny few.  I
think it's sufficiently large enough and unbiased enough sample to
extrapolate aggregates to all C++ code - in most cases at least - and
certainly the ones concerning this proposal.

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--089e01229a76a600ed05299df73c
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On M=
on, Jan 18, 2016 at 4:54 PM, Matthew Woehlke <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:mwoehlke.floss@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mwoehlke.floss@gmail=
..com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">On 2016-01-17 =
19:24, Andrew Tomazos wrote:<br>
<span class=3D"">&gt; On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 11:56 PM, dgutson . wrote:<br=
>
&gt;&gt; I humbly suggest you to focus your efforts in a library-version pr=
oposal.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I don&#39;t think people will use a library-based solution for for loo=
ps, even<br>
&gt; if one was adopted.=C2=A0 They will just continue to use the general f=
or loop as<br>
&gt; they do now, as it is shorter and doesn&#39;t require an include.<br>
<br>
</span>As one doing *exactly* that (using a library solution despite those<=
br>
drawbacks), I humbly disagree :-).<br>
<span class=3D""><br>
&gt; As evidence<br>
&gt; I give you the fact that the library-based solution is easy to impleme=
nt,<br>
&gt; and yet we haven&#39;t seen any existing practice of it.<br>
<br>
</span>Then you are not looking in the right places. I&#39;m using mine qui=
te a<br>
lot, thank you.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I have a corpus of 20,0=
00 open source C/C++ projects that are shipping and packaged totaling 2.5 m=
illion source files and 300M sloccount taken from a popular Linux package r=
epository.=C2=A0 It includes things like all of Qt, boost, vtk, cern root, =
llvm, chromium, mozilla, to just name a tiny few.=C2=A0 I think it&#39;s su=
fficiently large enough and unbiased enough sample to extrapolate aggregate=
s to all C++ code - in most cases at least - and certainly the ones concern=
ing this proposal.</div><div><br></div></div></div></div>

<p></p>

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--089e01229a76a600ed05299df73c--

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--001a113595c4b9221805299e1bbc
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2016-01-18 19:14 GMT+03:30 Nicol Bolas <jmckesson@gmail.com>:

> On Monday, January 18, 2016 at 10:38:24 AM UTC-5, Farid Mehrabi wrote:
>
>>
>> 2016-01-18 15:34 GMT+03:30 Agust=C3=ADn K-ballo Berg=C3=A9 <kaba...@hotm=
ail.com>:
>>
>>>
>>> For instance, the range-based for-loop proposal (N1868) says all the
>>> cool languages are doing it, and points at `BOOST_FOREACH` and `Q_FOREA=
CH`
>>> as evidence that people want it badly.
>>>
>>
>> =E2=80=8BYou just missed pre-c++11 std::for_each=E2=80=8B !!!!!!!
>>
>
> He was talking about prior art for range-based for. `std::for_each` is no=
t
> "range-based"; it's iterator-pair-based. You can't provide it with a sing=
le
> range value; you have to provide it with two separate values, which makes
> using it with temporary ranges troublesome.
>

=E2=80=8Bagreed, but it was a ring in the chain of efforts,=E2=80=8B and a =
signal that
traditional 'for' loop is not enough any more.

I am just thinking that the new range-based 'for' loop syntax has opened
the gates towards extending the 'for' loop. traditional 'for' has always
had the risk of inconsistent (wrong) formation of initial value,
termination condition and/or stepping. IMHO a library-based range
manipulator with proper operators can not only shorten the loop
declaration, but also decrease programmer's errors. Instead of a container,
range can be a value generator.

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--=20
how am I supposed to end the twisted road of  your hair in such a dark
night??
unless the candle of your face does shed some light upon my way!!!

--=20

---=20
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<div dir=3D"rtl"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial na=
rrow,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div =
dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2016-01-18 19:14 GMT+03:30 Nicol=
 Bolas <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jmckesson@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">jmckesson@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span>:<br><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;border-right:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;padding-right:1ex">On Monday, January 18, 201=
6 at 10:38:24 AM UTC-5, Farid Mehrabi wrote:<span class=3D""><br><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px=
 #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"rtl"><div><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">2016-01-18 15:34 GMT+03:30 Agust=C3=ADn K-ballo Be=
rg=C3=A9 <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow">kaba...@hotmail.com</a>&=
gt;</span>:</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8=
ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br><div style=3D"direction=
:ltr">For instance, the range-based for-loop proposal (N1868) says all the =
cool languages are doing it, and points at `BOOST_FOREACH` and `Q_FOREACH` =
as evidence that people want it badly.</div></blockquote></div><br clear=3D=
"all"><div style=3D"direction:ltr"><div style=3D"font-family:&#39;arial nar=
row&#39;,sans-serif;font-size:large">=E2=80=8BYou just missed pre-c++11 std=
::for_each=E2=80=8B !!!!!!!</div></div></div></div></blockquote></span><div=
><br>He was talking about prior art for range-based for. `std::for_each` is=
 not &quot;range-based&quot;; it&#39;s iterator-pair-based. You can&#39;t p=
rovide it with a single range value; you have to provide it with two separa=
te values, which makes using it with temporary ranges troublesome.<br></div=
></blockquote></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br></div><div =
class=3D"h5">

<p></p><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:&#39;arial narrow&=
#39;,sans-serif;font-size:large">=E2=80=8Bagreed, but it was a ring in the =
chain of efforts,=E2=80=8B and a signal that traditional &#39;for&#39; loop=
 is not enough any more.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-fa=
mily:&#39;arial narrow&#39;,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:&#39;arial narrow&#39;,sans-serif;=
font-size:large">I am just thinking that the new range-based &#39;for&#39; =
loop syntax has opened the gates towards extending the &#39;for&#39; loop. =
traditional &#39;for&#39; has always had the risk of inconsistent (wrong) f=
ormation of initial value, termination condition and/or stepping. IMHO a li=
brary-based range manipulator with proper operators can not only shorten th=
e loop declaration, but also decrease programmer&#39;s errors. Instead of a=
 container, range can be a value generator.</div><div class=3D"gmail_defaul=
t" style=3D"font-family:&#39;arial narrow&#39;,sans-serif;font-size:large">=
<br></div>
--- <br>
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roup/std-proposals/</a>.<br>
</div></div></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class=3D"gma=
il_signature"><div dir=3D"rtl"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">how am I supposed to e=
nd the twisted road of=C2=A0 your hair in such a dark night??<br>unless the=
 candle of your face does shed some light upon my way!!!<br></div></div></d=
iv></div>
</div></div>

<p></p>

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------=_Part_1870_139943609.1453133992973
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On Monday, January 18, 2016 at 10:45:08 AM UTC-5, Matthew Woehlke wrote:
>
> On 2016-01-16 04:38, Andrew Tomazos wrote:
> > Please find attached a rough incomplete 2-page draft entitled "Proposal
> of
> > Index-Based For Loop"
> >
> > Preliminary thoughts appreciated.
>
> Do you propose this as a library feature or a language feature? (Yes, a
> library solution, even for the syntax as written, is possible! See
> attached.)
>

Ideaone doesn't seem to like your code very much <http://ideone.com/NnTJHN>.

Also, I'm not sure that `index_iterator` is a genuine iterator. It doesn't
expose the iterator typedefs, nor does it specialize `std::iterator_traits`
to expose them for it. Sure, I suppose that range-based `for` does not
explicit *require* these things to be genuine iterators. But reliance on
flimsy specification is not wise.

Finally, I dislike the idea of *implicitly* treating a number as a range by
specializing customization points meant for actual ranges.

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<div dir=3D"ltr">On Monday, January 18, 2016 at 10:45:08 AM UTC-5, Matthew =
Woehlke wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-l=
eft: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">On 2016-01-16 04=
:38, Andrew Tomazos wrote:
<br>&gt; Please find attached a rough incomplete 2-page draft entitled &quo=
t;Proposal of
<br>&gt; Index-Based For Loop&quot;
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; Preliminary thoughts appreciated.
<br>
<br>Do you propose this as a library feature or a language feature? (Yes, a
<br>library solution, even for the syntax as written, is possible! See
<br>attached.)
<br></blockquote><div><br>Ideaone <a href=3D"http://ideone.com/NnTJHN">does=
n&#39;t seem to like your code very much</a>.<br><br>Also, I&#39;m not sure=
 that `index_iterator` is a genuine iterator. It doesn&#39;t expose the ite=
rator typedefs, nor does it specialize `std::iterator_traits` to expose the=
m for it. Sure, I suppose that range-based `for` does not explicit <i>requi=
re</i> these things to be genuine iterators. But reliance on flimsy specifi=
cation is not wise.<br><br>Finally, I dislike the idea of <i>implicitly</i>=
 treating a number as a range by specializing customization points meant fo=
r actual ranges.<br></div></div>

<p></p>

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------=_Part_1871_1585289113.1453133992973--
------=_Part_1870_139943609.1453133992973--

.

On 2016-01-18 11:08, Andrew Tomazos wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 4:54 PM, Matthew Woehlke wrote:
>> On 2016-01-17 19:24, Andrew Tomazos wrote:
>>> As evidence I give you the fact that the library-based solution
>>> is easy to implement, and yet we haven't seen any existing
>>> practice of it.
>>
>> Then you are not looking in the right places. I'm using mine quite a
>> lot, thank you.
>
> I have a corpus of 20,000 open source C/C++ projects that are shipping and
> packaged totaling 2.5 million source files and 300M sloccount taken from a
> popular Linux package repository.  It includes things like all of Qt,
> boost, vtk, cern root, llvm, chromium, mozilla, to just name a tiny few.  I
> think it's sufficiently large enough and unbiased enough sample to
> extrapolate aggregates to all C++ code - in most cases at least - and
> certainly the ones concerning this proposal.

....and how much of that is sufficiently recent that a library solution
would even be considered? Artificially weighting the statistic by
considering mainly code where the authors were not aware of a
library-based solution, or could not use one for whatever reason (most
of that code likely predates C++11), does not make for a convincing
argument.

The statistics I provided are for projects that a) are aware of (and
*using*) a library solution, and b) are able to do so due to
availability of container iteration (either in the form of true
range-based for or an equivalent work-around).

Yes, it's anecdotal as I am only one person, but it's direct, personal
experience, not guesses about the unknown motivations of third parties.

That said, I'd still love to have 'for (auto i : 5)'... but I'm
unconvinced that a language solution is required.

I would encourage you to propose a comprehensive library solution that
covers both the trivial and complex cases, including a "syntax free"
(i.e. can implement 'for (auto i : 5)') form of the common case. That
way a) you are not proposing a language change, which as shown is going
to be a much more difficult sell, and b) there is a better chance of at
least part of the proposal being adopted. *Anything* we can get in this
direction would be a win.

--
Matthew

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.

On 18 January 2016 at 18:08, Andrew Tomazos <andrewtomazos@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have a corpus of 20,000 open source C/C++ projects that are shipping and
> packaged totaling 2.5 million source files and 300M sloccount taken from a
> popular Linux package repository.  It includes things like all of Qt, boost,
> vtk, cern root, llvm, chromium, mozilla, to just name a tiny few.  I think

That's nice.

> it's sufficiently large enough and unbiased enough sample to extrapolate
> aggregates to all C++ code - in most cases at least - and certainly the ones

Well, that takes home the prize of the most outrageous statement on these forums
in quite a while.

> concerning this proposal.

Well, to each their own, I guess.

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--001a113aab8ad761f505299e36db
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oops!!!, I seem to be too exhausted.

2016-01-18 19:20 GMT+03:30 Agust=C3=ADn K-ballo Berg=C3=A9 <kaballo86@hotma=
il.com>:

> On 1/18/2016 12:37 PM, Farid Mehrabi wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> 2016-01-18 15:34 GMT+03:30 Agust=C3=ADn K-ballo Berg=C3=A9 <kaballo86@ho=
tmail.com
>> <mailto:kaballo86@hotmail.com>>:
>>
>>
>>     For instance, the range-based for-loop proposal (N1868) says all the
>>     cool languages are doing it, and points at `BOOST_FOREACH` and
>>     `Q_FOREACH` as evidence that people want it badly.
>>
>>
>> =E2=80=8BYou just missed pre-c++11 std::for_each=E2=80=8B !!!!!!!
>>
>
> I was not the author of that paper.
>
>
> Regards,
> --
> Agust=C3=ADn K-ballo Berg=C3=A9.-
> http://talesofcpp.fusionfenix.com
>
> --
>
> --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org.
> To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org.
> Visit this group at
> https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/group/std-proposals/.
>



--=20
how am I supposed to end the twisted road of  your hair in such a dark
night??
unless the candle of your face does shed some light upon my way!!!

--=20

---=20
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<div dir=3D"rtl"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:&#39;ari=
al narrow&#39;,sans-serif;font-size:large" dir=3D"ltr">oops!!!, I seem to b=
e too exhausted.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gm=
ail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">2016-01-18 19:20 GMT+03:30 Agust=C3=ADn K-ballo=
 Berg=C3=A9 <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kaballo86@hotmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank">kaballo86@hotmail.com</a>&gt;</span>:</div><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><span class=3D"">On 1/18/2016 12:37 PM, Farid Mehrabi wrot=
e:<br>
</span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-=
left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D"">
<br>
<br>
2016-01-18 15:34 GMT+03:30 Agust=C3=ADn K-ballo Berg=C3=A9 &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:kaballo86@hotmail.com" target=3D"_blank">kaballo86@hotmail.com</a><br=
></span>
&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:kaballo86@hotmail.com" target=3D"_blank">kabal=
lo86@hotmail.com</a>&gt;&gt;:<span class=3D""><br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 For instance, the range-based for-loop proposal (N1868) says =
all the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 cool languages are doing it, and points at `BOOST_FOREACH` an=
d<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 `Q_FOREACH` as evidence that people want it badly.<br>
<br>
<br>
=E2=80=8BYou just missed pre-c++11 std::for_each=E2=80=8B !!!!!!!<br>
</span></blockquote>
<br>
I was not the author of that paper.<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">=
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
-- <br>
Agust=C3=ADn K-ballo Berg=C3=A9.-<br>
<a href=3D"http://talesofcpp.fusionfenix.com" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"=
_blank">http://talesofcpp.fusionfenix.com</a><br>
<br>
-- <br>
<br>
--- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou=
ps &quot;ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals&quot; group.<br>
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:std-proposals%2Bunsubscribe@isocpp.org" target=3D=
"_blank">std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org</a>.<br>
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:std-proposals@isocpp=
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br>=
<div class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"rtl"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">how a=
m I supposed to end the twisted road of=C2=A0 your hair in such a dark nigh=
t??<br>unless the candle of your face does shed some light upon my way!!!<b=
r></div></div></div></div>
</div>

<p></p>

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--001a113aab8ad761f505299e36db--

.

--001a11419974dc3e4b05299e4a22
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On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 5:24 PM, Ville Voutilainen <
ville.voutilainen@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 18 January 2016 at 18:08, Andrew Tomazos <andrewtomazos@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > I have a corpus of 20,000 open source C/C++ projects that are shipping
> and
> > packaged totaling 2.5 million source files and 300M sloccount taken from
> a
> > popular Linux package repository.  It includes things like all of Qt,
> boost,
> > vtk, cern root, llvm, chromium, mozilla, to just name a tiny few.  I
> think
>
> That's nice.
>
> > it's sufficiently large enough and unbiased enough sample to extrapolate
> > aggregates to all C++ code - in most cases at least - and certainly the
> ones
>
> Well, that takes home the prize of the most outrageous statement on these
> forums
> in quite a while.
>

I guess you strongly disagree with my statement, care to say why?

> concerning this proposal.
>
> Well, to each their own, I guess.
>
> --
>
> ---
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
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> email to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org.
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> Visit this group at
> https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/group/std-proposals/.
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 5:24 PM, Ville Voutilainen <span dir=3D"ltr">&l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:ville.voutilainen@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">ville.vo=
utilainen@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"=
><span class=3D"">On 18 January 2016 at 18:08, Andrew Tomazos &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:andrewtomazos@gmail.com">andrewtomazos@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<=
br>
&gt; I have a corpus of 20,000 open source C/C++ projects that are shipping=
 and<br>
&gt; packaged totaling 2.5 million source files and 300M sloccount taken fr=
om a<br>
&gt; popular Linux package repository.=C2=A0 It includes things like all of=
 Qt, boost,<br>
&gt; vtk, cern root, llvm, chromium, mozilla, to just name a tiny few.=C2=
=A0 I think<br>
<br>
</span>That&#39;s nice.<br>
<span class=3D""><br>
&gt; it&#39;s sufficiently large enough and unbiased enough sample to extra=
polate<br>
&gt; aggregates to all C++ code - in most cases at least - and certainly th=
e ones<br>
<br>
</span>Well, that takes home the prize of the most outrageous statement on =
these forums<br>
in quite a while.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I guess you strongly =
disagree with my statement, care to say why?</div><div><br></div><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc sol=
id;padding-left:1ex">
&gt; concerning this proposal.<br>
<br>
Well, to each their own, I guess.<br>
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
--<br>
<br>
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..com/a/isocpp.org/group/std-proposals/</a>.<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

<p></p>

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--001a11419974dc3e4b05299e4a22--

.

On 2016-01-18 09:45, Agust=C3=ADn K-ballo Berg=C3=A9 wrote:
> Some people claim to have implemented the library solution for personal
> use, which would suggest they do use such a facility. Perhaps they do so
> only outside a range-based for-loop, since that has its merits too, so
> it would be worth a follow up with them.

Er... huh? The library solution is only usable from *within* a
range-based for. (Mind, in at least one of the projects I cited,
range-based for is spelled "foreach" or "VITAL_FOREACH", due to the need
to use a fallback on old compilers, so any searching for range-based for
syntax would not turn up uses.)

> Personally, I am not convinced of the readability advantages of the
> proposed solution over a plain for loop, although that is entirely
> subjective.

I rather suspect that old-school iterators are only readable because
we're used to them :-). Anyway, use them for readability, I use them
because a) the end value is "recorded", and b) the iterator type is deduced=
..

(And... because I think 'for (iter : range(value)' reads well :-).)

> The existence of MSVC's `for each` says otherwise,

OT... did you know that MSVC "for each" *bypasses the preprocessor*?
This is an error:

  #define each (a, b) (a : b)
  for each (auto item, container)

....even though it is conforming code and DTRT on every other (C++11)
compiler :'(.

--=20
Matthew

--=20

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On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 5:24 PM, Matthew Woehlke <mwoehlke.floss@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On 2016-01-18 11:08, Andrew Tomazos wrote:
> > On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 4:54 PM, Matthew Woehlke wrote:
> >> On 2016-01-17 19:24, Andrew Tomazos wrote:
> >>> As evidence I give you the fact that the library-based solution
> >>> is easy to implement, and yet we haven't seen any existing
> >>> practice of it.
> >>
> >> Then you are not looking in the right places. I'm using mine quite a
> >> lot, thank you.
> >
> > I have a corpus of 20,000 open source C/C++ projects that are shipping
> and
> > packaged totaling 2.5 million source files and 300M sloccount taken from
> a
> > popular Linux package repository.  It includes things like all of Qt,
> > boost, vtk, cern root, llvm, chromium, mozilla, to just name a tiny
> few.  I
> > think it's sufficiently large enough and unbiased enough sample to
> > extrapolate aggregates to all C++ code - in most cases at least - and
> > certainly the ones concerning this proposal.
>
> ...and how much of that is sufficiently recent that a library solution
> would even be considered? Artificially weighting the statistic by
> considering mainly code where the authors were not aware of a
> library-based solution, or could not use one for whatever reason (most
> of that code likely predates C++11), does not make for a convincing
> argument.
>

About 50% is C++ (not C) and about 20% is using C++11 or newer.

The statistics I provided are for projects that a) are aware of (and
> *using*) a library solution, and b) are able to do so due to
> availability of container iteration (either in the form of true
> range-based for or an equivalent work-around).
>
> Yes, it's anecdotal as I am only one person, but it's direct, personal
> experience, not guesses about the unknown motivations of third parties.
>
> That said, I'd still love to have 'for (auto i : 5)'... but I'm
> unconvinced that a language solution is required.
>
> I would encourage you to propose a comprehensive library solution that
> covers both the trivial and complex cases, including a "syntax free"
> (i.e. can implement 'for (auto i : 5)') form of the common case. That
> way a) you are not proposing a language change, which as shown is going
> to be a much more difficult sell, and b) there is a better chance of at
> least part of the proposal being adopted. *Anything* we can get in this
> direction would be a win.
>
> --
> Matthew
>
> --
>
> ---
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org.
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>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 5:24 PM, Matthew Woehlke <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:mwoehlke.floss@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mwoehlke.flos=
s@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">On 2016=
-01-18 11:08, Andrew Tomazos wrote:<br>
<span class=3D"">&gt; On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 4:54 PM, Matthew Woehlke wrot=
e:<br>
&gt;&gt; On 2016-01-17 19:24, Andrew Tomazos wrote:<br>
</span><span class=3D"">&gt;&gt;&gt; As evidence I give you the fact that t=
he library-based solution<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; is easy to implement, and yet we haven&#39;t seen any existing=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; practice of it.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Then you are not looking in the right places. I&#39;m using mine q=
uite a<br>
&gt;&gt; lot, thank you.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I have a corpus of 20,000 open source C/C++ projects that are shipping=
 and<br>
&gt; packaged totaling 2.5 million source files and 300M sloccount taken fr=
om a<br>
&gt; popular Linux package repository.=C2=A0 It includes things like all of=
 Qt,<br>
&gt; boost, vtk, cern root, llvm, chromium, mozilla, to just name a tiny fe=
w.=C2=A0 I<br>
&gt; think it&#39;s sufficiently large enough and unbiased enough sample to=
<br>
&gt; extrapolate aggregates to all C++ code - in most cases at least - and<=
br>
&gt; certainly the ones concerning this proposal.<br>
<br>
</span>...and how much of that is sufficiently recent that a library soluti=
on<br>
would even be considered? Artificially weighting the statistic by<br>
considering mainly code where the authors were not aware of a<br>
library-based solution, or could not use one for whatever reason (most<br>
of that code likely predates C++11), does not make for a convincing<br>
argument.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>About 50% is C++ (not C) and =
about 20% is using C++11 or newer.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;p=
adding-left:1ex">
The statistics I provided are for projects that a) are aware of (and<br>
*using*) a library solution, and b) are able to do so due to<br>
availability of container iteration (either in the form of true<br>
range-based for or an equivalent work-around).<br>
<br>
Yes, it&#39;s anecdotal as I am only one person, but it&#39;s direct, perso=
nal<br>
experience, not guesses about the unknown motivations of third parties.<br>
<br>
That said, I&#39;d still love to have &#39;for (auto i : 5)&#39;... but I&#=
39;m<br>
unconvinced that a language solution is required.<br>
<br>
I would encourage you to propose a comprehensive library solution that<br>
covers both the trivial and complex cases, including a &quot;syntax free&qu=
ot;<br>
(i.e. can implement &#39;for (auto i : 5)&#39;) form of the common case. Th=
at<br>
way a) you are not proposing a language change, which as shown is going<br>
to be a much more difficult sell, and b) there is a better chance of at<br>
least part of the proposal being adopted. *Anything* we can get in this<br>
direction would be a win.<br>
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
--<br>
Matthew<br>
<br>
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.

On 2016-01-18 08:37, Andrew Tomazos wrote:
> Given the three solutions:
>=20
>    1. for (int i =3D 0; i < N; ++i)
>    2. #include <whatever/irange> using whatever::irange;  for (int i :
> irange(N))
>    3. for (int i : N)
>=20
> The evidence suggests [1] is preferred to [2].

Again, I respectfully disagree. [1] has decades of inertia behind it,
while [2] is new, and only just starting to be an available solution in
many projects.

Personally, I now use [2] whenever possible and avoid [1]. Many projects
I work on however it's new that C++ > 2003 is allowed, and most can't
even fully use C++11=C2=B9, and won't be able to for many years.

(=C2=B9 Specifically, can't use range-based for, although a work-around is
possible: see
https://github.com/Kitware/vital/blob/master/vital/vital_foreach.h.)

> People generally use [1] rather than [2], despite various versions
> of [2] being available and easy to implement.

existing code !=3D people

--=20
Matthew

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.

On 18 January 2016 at 18:32, Andrew Tomazos <andrewtomazos@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > I have a corpus of 20,000 open source C/C++ projects that are shipping
>> > and
>> > packaged totaling 2.5 million source files and 300M sloccount taken from
>> > a
>> > popular Linux package repository.  It includes things like all of Qt,
>> > boost,
>> > vtk, cern root, llvm, chromium, mozilla, to just name a tiny few.  I
>> > think
>>
>> That's nice.
>>
>> > it's sufficiently large enough and unbiased enough sample to extrapolate
>> > aggregates to all C++ code - in most cases at least - and certainly the
>> > ones
>>
>> Well, that takes home the prize of the most outrageous statement on these
>> forums
>> in quite a while.
> I guess you strongly disagree with my statement, care to say why?


I disagree that your corpus is large enough and unbiased enough to extrapolate
anything to all C++ code.

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On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 5:33 PM, Matthew Woehlke <mwoehlke.floss@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On 2016-01-18 08:37, Andrew Tomazos wrote:
> > Given the three solutions:
> >
> >    1. for (int i =3D 0; i < N; ++i)
> >    2. #include <whatever/irange> using whatever::irange;  for (int i :
> > irange(N))
> >    3. for (int i : N)
> >
> > The evidence suggests [1] is preferred to [2].
>
> Again, I respectfully disagree. [1] has decades of inertia behind it,
> while [2] is new, and only just starting to be an available solution in
> many projects.
>

[2] has been available since Range-Based For, which is C++11.  We would
therefore expect to see a significant number of usages of [2] relative to
[1] in C++11 code if the hypothesis is false.

Personally, I now use [2] whenever possible and avoid [1]. Many projects
> I work on however it's new that C++ > 2003 is allowed, and most can't
> even fully use C++11=C2=B9, and won't be able to for many years.
>
> (=C2=B9 Specifically, can't use range-based for, although a work-around i=
s
> possible: see
> https://github.com/Kitware/vital/blob/master/vital/vital_foreach.h.)
>
> > People generally use [1] rather than [2], despite various versions
> > of [2] being available and easy to implement.
>
> existing code !=3D people
>
> --
> Matthew
>
> --
>
> ---
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
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>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 5:33 PM, Matthew Woehlke <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:mwoehlke.floss@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mwoehlke.flos=
s@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span c=
lass=3D"">On 2016-01-18 08:37, Andrew Tomazos wrote:<br>
&gt; Given the three solutions:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 1. for (int i =3D 0; i &lt; N; ++i)<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 2. #include &lt;whatever/irange&gt; using whatever::irang=
e;=C2=A0 for (int i :<br>
&gt; irange(N))<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 3. for (int i : N)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The evidence suggests [1] is preferred to [2].<br>
<br>
</span>Again, I respectfully disagree. [1] has decades of inertia behind it=
,<br>
while [2] is new, and only just starting to be an available solution in<br>
many projects.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[2] has been available s=
ince Range-Based For, which is C++11.=C2=A0 We would therefore expect to se=
e a significant number of usages of [2] relative to [1] in C++11 code if th=
e hypothesis is false.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Personally, I now use [2] whenever possible and avoid [1]. Many projects<br=
>
I work on however it&#39;s new that C++ &gt; 2003 is allowed, and most can&=
#39;t<br>
even fully use C++11=C2=B9, and won&#39;t be able to for many years.<br>
<br>
(=C2=B9 Specifically, can&#39;t use range-based for, although a work-around=
 is<br>
possible: see<br>
<a href=3D"https://github.com/Kitware/vital/blob/master/vital/vital_foreach=
..h" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/Kitware/vital/b=
lob/master/vital/vital_foreach.h</a>.)<br>
<span class=3D""><br>
&gt; People generally use [1] rather than [2], despite various versions<br>
&gt; of [2] being available and easy to implement.<br>
<br>
</span>existing code !=3D people<br>
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
--<br>
Matthew<br>
</font></span><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
--<br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

<p></p>

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--001a11467ce2cd866305299e600f--

.

On 2016-01-18 11:19, Nicol Bolas wrote:
> On Monday, January 18, 2016 at 10:45:08 AM UTC-5, Matthew Woehlke wrote:
>> Do you propose this as a library feature or a language feature? (Yes, a
>> library solution, even for the syntax as written, is possible! See
>> attached.)
>
> Ideaone doesn't seem to like your code very much <http://ideone.com/NnTJHN>.

That's... interesting. It's fine on GCC 4.8 (https://goo.gl/uTl1VK), but
not 4.9 or clang. Apparently I don't grok the look-up rules for 'begin'
in this context. I'm not sure that can't be remedied without a language
change, though?

> Also, I'm not sure that `index_iterator` is a genuine iterator. It doesn't
> expose the iterator typedefs, nor does it specialize `std::iterator_traits`
> to expose them for it. Sure, I suppose that range-based `for` does not
> explicit *require* these things to be genuine iterators. But reliance on
> flimsy specification is not wise.

Well, sure... it's meant to be sufficient for range-based for. A
"complete" implementation would be more complicated, but I don't see why
it would be impossible?

> Finally, I dislike the idea of *implicitly* treating a number as a range by
> specializing customization points meant for actual ranges.

Fair enough. The point was to try to demonstrate that the "terse form"
e.g. 'for (auto i : 5)' can be achieved without a language change.
That's not to say there aren't potential drawbacks to the approach...

--
Matthew

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On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 5:37 PM, Ville Voutilainen <
ville.voutilainen@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 18 January 2016 at 18:32, Andrew Tomazos <andrewtomazos@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> > I have a corpus of 20,000 open source C/C++ projects that are shipping
> >> > and
> >> > packaged totaling 2.5 million source files and 300M sloccount taken
> from
> >> > a
> >> > popular Linux package repository.  It includes things like all of Qt,
> >> > boost,
> >> > vtk, cern root, llvm, chromium, mozilla, to just name a tiny few.  I
> >> > think
> >>
> >> That's nice.
> >>
> >> > it's sufficiently large enough and unbiased enough sample to
> extrapolate
> >> > aggregates to all C++ code - in most cases at least - and certainly
> the
> >> > ones
> >>
> >> Well, that takes home the prize of the most outrageous statement on
> these
> >> forums
> >> in quite a while.
> > I guess you strongly disagree with my statement, care to say why?
>
>
> I disagree that your corpus is large enough and unbiased enough to
> extrapolate
> anything to all C++ code.


First point, size: how much production C++ code is there under active
development?  Can't be much more than 3B lines?  A 1% sample is pretty
good.  Do you have a different estimate of this number?

Second point, bias: Well it's targeting Linux, but a lot of the code and
libraries are cross-platform.  It's open source, but it doesn't look too
different than the proprietary code I've seen.

What am I missing?

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 5:37 PM, Ville Voutilainen <span dir=3D"ltr">&l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:ville.voutilainen@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">ville.vo=
utilainen@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"=
><span class=3D"">On 18 January 2016 at 18:32, Andrew Tomazos &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:andrewtomazos@gmail.com">andrewtomazos@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<=
br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; I have a corpus of 20,000 open source C/C++ projects that are=
 shipping<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; and<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; packaged totaling 2.5 million source files and 300M sloccount=
 taken from<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; a<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; popular Linux package repository.=C2=A0 It includes things li=
ke all of Qt,<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; boost,<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; vtk, cern root, llvm, chromium, mozilla, to just name a tiny =
few.=C2=A0 I<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; think<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; That&#39;s nice.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; it&#39;s sufficiently large enough and unbiased enough sample=
 to extrapolate<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; aggregates to all C++ code - in most cases at least - and cer=
tainly the<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; ones<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Well, that takes home the prize of the most outrageous statement o=
n these<br>
&gt;&gt; forums<br>
&gt;&gt; in quite a while.<br>
&gt; I guess you strongly disagree with my statement, care to say why?<br>
<br>
<br>
</span>I disagree that your corpus is large enough and unbiased enough to e=
xtrapolate<br>
anything to all C++ code.</blockquote><div><br></div><div>First point, size=
: how much production C++ code is there under active development?=C2=A0 Can=
&#39;t be much more than 3B lines?=C2=A0 A 1% sample is pretty good.=C2=A0 =
Do you have a different estimate of this number?</div><div><br></div><div>S=
econd point, bias: Well it&#39;s targeting Linux, but a lot of the code and=
 libraries are cross-platform.=C2=A0 It&#39;s open source, but it doesn&#39=
;t look too different than the proprietary code I&#39;ve seen.</div><div><b=
r></div><div>What am I missing?</div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div></=
div></div>

<p></p>

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.

On 1/18/2016 1:33 PM, Matthew Woehlke wrote:
> On 2016-01-18 09:45, Agust=C3=ADn K-ballo Berg=C3=A9 wrote:
>> Some people claim to have implemented the library solution for personal
>> use, which would suggest they do use such a facility. Perhaps they do so
>> only outside a range-based for-loop, since that has its merits too, so
>> it would be worth a follow up with them.
>
> Er... huh? The library solution is only usable from *within* a
> range-based for.

How would a library solution be ill-formed when used outside a=20
range-based for? A range of integers is still a range of integers.

Regards,
--=20
Agust=C3=ADn K-ballo Berg=C3=A9.-
http://talesofcpp.fusionfenix.com

--=20

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--------------060208080109030403000408
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Am 18.01.2016 um 17:38 schrieb Andrew Tomazos:
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 5:33 PM, Matthew Woehlke
> <mwoehlke.floss@gmail.com <mailto:mwoehlke.floss@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     On 2016-01-18 08:37, Andrew Tomazos wrote:
>     > Given the three solutions:
>     >
>     >    1. for (int i = 0; i < N; ++i)
>     >    2. #include <whatever/irange> using whatever::irange;  for
>     (int i :
>     > irange(N))
>     >    3. for (int i : N)
>     >
>     > The evidence suggests [1] is preferred to [2].
>
>     Again, I respectfully disagree. [1] has decades of inertia behind it,
>     while [2] is new, and only just starting to be an available
>     solution in
>     many projects.
>
>
> [2] has been available since Range-Based For, which is C++11.  We
> would therefore expect to see a significant number of usages of [2]
> relative to [1] in C++11 code if the hypothesis is false.
How much of the 300M sloccount you searched has been written *after* the
respective projects got C++11 support? If your intention is to provided
proof then including code written before the respective projects had
access to C++11 compilers (and were allowed to use the new language) is
bias in your analysis. You also say it's C/C++ code. Well C has no range
based for thus including it additionally skews the result.

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<html>
  <head>
    <meta content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" http-equiv=3D"Content-Type=
">
  </head>
  <body bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000">
    Am 18.01.2016 um 17:38 schrieb Andrew Tomazos:<br>
    <blockquote
cite=3D"mid:CAB+4KH+4imoB6O9LhjyJ0wtzcV3a0pZrcXfp9wqn04L+ENnhsg@mail.gmail.=
com"
      type=3D"cite">
      <div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
        <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
          <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 5:33 PM,
            Matthew Woehlke <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a
                moz-do-not-send=3D"true"
                href=3D"mailto:mwoehlke.floss@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">=
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:mwoehlke.floss@gmail.c=
om">mwoehlke.floss@gmail.com</a></a>&gt;</span>
            wrote:<br>
            <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0
              .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span
                class=3D"">On 2016-01-18 08:37, Andrew Tomazos wrote:<br>
                &gt; Given the three solutions:<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 1. for (int i =3D 0; i &lt; N; ++i)<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 2. #include &lt;whatever/irange&gt; using
                whatever::irange;=C2=A0 for (int i :<br>
                &gt; irange(N))<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 3. for (int i : N)<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; The evidence suggests [1] is preferred to [2].<br>
                <br>
              </span>Again, I respectfully disagree. [1] has decades of
              inertia behind it,<br>
              while [2] is new, and only just starting to be an
              available solution in<br>
              many projects.<br>
            </blockquote>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>[2] has been available since Range-Based For, which is
              C++11.=C2=A0 We would therefore expect to see a significant
              number of usages of [2] relative to [1] in C++11 code if
              the hypothesis is false.</div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    How much of the 300M sloccount you searched has been written *after*
    the respective projects got C++11 support? If your intention is to
    provided proof then including code written before the respective
    projects had access to C++11 compilers (and were allowed to use the
    new language) is bias in your analysis. You also say it's C/C++
    code. Well C has no range based for thus including it additionally
    skews the result.<br>
  </body>
</html>

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.

On 2016-01-18 11:38, Andrew Tomazos wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 5:33 PM, Matthew Woehlke wrote:
>> On 2016-01-18 08:37, Andrew Tomazos wrote:
>>> Given the three solutions:
>>>
>>>    1. for (int i = 0; i < N; ++i)
>>>    2. #include <whatever/irange> using whatever::irange;  for (int i :
>>> irange(N))
>>>    3. for (int i : N)
>>>
>>> The evidence suggests [1] is preferred to [2].
>>
>> Again, I respectfully disagree. [1] has decades of inertia behind it,
>> while [2] is new, and only just starting to be an available solution in
>> many projects.
>
> [2] has been available since Range-Based For, which is C++11.  We would
> therefore expect to see a significant number of usages of [2] relative to
> [1] in C++11 code if the hypothesis is false.

And... at least in my projects, this is *exactly what you do see!* Those
that can use C++11 are using a library-based indexrange() with
range-based for.

You've cited a large code base, but have not told us what portion of it
is C++11 aware. (I know that VTK is not, for example, nor is Qt 4, and
Qt 5 is still in the process of transitioning.)

--
Matthew

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On 18 January 2016 at 18:45, Andrew Tomazos <andrewtomazos@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I disagree that your corpus is large enough and unbiased enough to
>> extrapolate
>> anything to all C++ code.
> First point, size: how much production C++ code is there under active
> development?  Can't be much more than 3B lines?  A 1% sample is pretty good.
> Do you have a different estimate of this number?

You extrapolate to all C++ code from a 1% sample? That sounds bold.

> Second point, bias: Well it's targeting Linux, but a lot of the code and
> libraries are cross-platform.  It's open source, but it doesn't look too

Yeah, well, it doesn't include any proprietary code. There's lots of it.

> different than the proprietary code I've seen.

So all of this is purely anecdotal?

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--089e01229a7684966605299e8e45
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On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 5:48 PM, Miro Knejp <miro.knejp@gmail.com> wrote:

> Am 18.01.2016 um 17:38 schrieb Andrew Tomazos:
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 5:33 PM, Matthew Woehlke <
> <mwoehlke.floss@gmail.com>mwoehlke.floss@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2016-01-18 08:37, Andrew Tomazos wrote:
>> > Given the three solutions:
>> >
>> >    1. for (int i = 0; i < N; ++i)
>> >    2. #include <whatever/irange> using whatever::irange;  for (int i :
>> > irange(N))
>> >    3. for (int i : N)
>> >
>> > The evidence suggests [1] is preferred to [2].
>>
>> Again, I respectfully disagree. [1] has decades of inertia behind it,
>> while [2] is new, and only just starting to be an available solution in
>> many projects.
>>
>
> [2] has been available since Range-Based For, which is C++11.  We would
> therefore expect to see a significant number of usages of [2] relative to
> [1] in C++11 code if the hypothesis is false.
>
> How much of the 300M sloccount you searched has been written *after* the
> respective projects got C++11 support? If your intention is to provided
> proof then including code written before the respective projects had access
> to C++11 compilers (and were allowed to use the new language) is bias in
> your analysis. You also say it's C/C++ code. Well C has no range based for
> thus including it additionally skews the result.
>

I mean about 20% of the source files are using C++11 features based on the
syntax etc (not based on the compiler flags).  But yes, I know what you
mean, and we need to be careful in tracking this when intepreting results.

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 5:48 PM, Miro Knejp <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:miro.knejp@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">miro.knejp@gmail.com</=
a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
 =20
   =20
 =20
  <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000"><span class=3D"">
    Am 18.01.2016 um 17:38 schrieb Andrew Tomazos:<br>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
      <div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
        <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
          <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 5:33 PM,
            Matthew Woehlke <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mwoehlk=
e.floss@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank"></a><a href=3D"mailto:mwoehlke.floss@g=
mail.com" target=3D"_blank">mwoehlke.floss@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span>
            wrote:<br>
            <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span>On 2016-01-18 08:37, Andre=
w Tomazos wrote:<br>
                &gt; Given the three solutions:<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 1. for (int i =3D 0; i &lt; N; ++i)<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 2. #include &lt;whatever/irange&gt; using
                whatever::irange;=C2=A0 for (int i :<br>
                &gt; irange(N))<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 3. for (int i : N)<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; The evidence suggests [1] is preferred to [2].<br>
                <br>
              </span>Again, I respectfully disagree. [1] has decades of
              inertia behind it,<br>
              while [2] is new, and only just starting to be an
              available solution in<br>
              many projects.<br>
            </blockquote>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>[2] has been available since Range-Based For, which is
              C++11.=C2=A0 We would therefore expect to see a significant
              number of usages of [2] relative to [1] in C++11 code if
              the hypothesis is false.</div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote></span>
    How much of the 300M sloccount you searched has been written *after*
    the respective projects got C++11 support? If your intention is to
    provided proof then including code written before the respective
    projects had access to C++11 compilers (and were allowed to use the
    new language) is bias in your analysis. You also say it&#39;s C/C++
    code. Well C has no range based for thus including it additionally
    skews the result.</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I mean about 20=
% of the source files are using C++11 features based on the syntax etc (not=
 based on the compiler flags).=C2=A0 But yes, I know what you mean, and we =
need to be careful in tracking this when intepreting results.</div><div><br=
></div></div></div></div>

<p></p>

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--089e01229a7684966605299e8e45--

.

On 2016-01-18 11:46, Agust=C3=ADn K-ballo Berg=C3=A9 wrote:
> On 1/18/2016 1:33 PM, Matthew Woehlke wrote:
>> On 2016-01-18 09:45, Agust=C3=ADn K-ballo Berg=C3=A9 wrote:
>>> Some people claim to have implemented the library solution for personal
>>> use, which would suggest they do use such a facility. Perhaps they do s=
o
>>> only outside a range-based for-loop, since that has its merits too, so
>>> it would be worth a follow up with them.
>>
>> Er... huh? The library solution is only usable from *within* a
>> range-based for.
>=20
> How would a library solution be ill-formed when used outside a
> range-based for? A range of integers is still a range of integers.

Maybe I misunderstand. Do you mean *entirely outside of a for loop*?
Because I don't see how you would use an index range inside a
traditional for loop=C2=B9.

All my uses are in for loops; necessarily, range-based for loops or
equivalents. Rather the opposite of "only *outside* a range-based
for-loop" (emphasis added).

(=C2=B9 Well... you could use it in a traditional for loop that *emulates* =
a
range-based for loop. Which, yeah, is possible, but not something done
without a moderately complicated macro such as VITAL_FOREACH,
BOOST_FOREACH, Q_FOREACH, etc.)

--=20
Matthew

--=20

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On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 5:50 PM, Ville Voutilainen <
ville.voutilainen@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 18 January 2016 at 18:45, Andrew Tomazos <andrewtomazos@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> I disagree that your corpus is large enough and unbiased enough to
> >> extrapolate
> >> anything to all C++ code.
> > First point, size: how much production C++ code is there under active
> > development?  Can't be much more than 3B lines?  A 1% sample is pretty
> good.
> > Do you have a different estimate of this number?
>
> You extrapolate to all C++ code from a 1% sample? That sounds bold.


A 1% sample of such a large population delivers a lot of confidence, yes.

> Second point, bias: Well it's targeting Linux, but a lot of the code and
> > libraries are cross-platform.  It's open source, but it doesn't look too
>
> Yeah, well, it doesn't include any proprietary code. There's lots of it.
>
> > different than the proprietary code I've seen.
>
> So all of this is purely anecdotal?


Getting a perfectly random sample of all C++ code is impossible - so yes,
we have to make certain assumptions.  I think the assumption that shipping
"production" open source code is representative of propretiary code is not
completely bold - considering a lot of the code was propretiary and then
open sourced for business reasons that I wouldnt expect to bias the sample.

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 5:50 PM, Ville Voutilainen <span dir=3D"ltr">&l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:ville.voutilainen@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">ville.vo=
utilainen@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"=
><span class=3D"">On 18 January 2016 at 18:45, Andrew Tomazos &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:andrewtomazos@gmail.com">andrewtomazos@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<=
br>
&gt;&gt; I disagree that your corpus is large enough and unbiased enough to=
<br>
&gt;&gt; extrapolate<br>
&gt;&gt; anything to all C++ code.<br>
&gt; First point, size: how much production C++ code is there under active<=
br>
&gt; development?=C2=A0 Can&#39;t be much more than 3B lines?=C2=A0 A 1% sa=
mple is pretty good.<br>
&gt; Do you have a different estimate of this number?<br>
<br>
</span>You extrapolate to all C++ code from a 1% sample? That sounds bold.<=
/blockquote><div><br></div><div>A 1% sample of such a large population deli=
vers a lot of confidence, yes.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-lef=
t:1ex"><span class=3D"">
&gt; Second point, bias: Well it&#39;s targeting Linux, but a lot of the co=
de and<br>
&gt; libraries are cross-platform.=C2=A0 It&#39;s open source, but it doesn=
&#39;t look too<br>
<br>
</span>Yeah, well, it doesn&#39;t include any proprietary code. There&#39;s=
 lots of it.<br>
<span class=3D""><br>
&gt; different than the proprietary code I&#39;ve seen.<br>
<br>
</span>So all of this is purely anecdotal?</blockquote><div><br></div><div>=
Getting a perfectly random sample of all C++ code is impossible - so yes, w=
e have to make certain assumptions.=C2=A0 I think the assumption that shipp=
ing &quot;production&quot; open source code is representative of propretiar=
y code is not completely bold - considering a lot of the code was propretia=
ry and then open sourced for business reasons that I wouldnt expect to bias=
 the sample.</div><div><br></div></div><br></div></div>

<p></p>

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--089e013cc3140c1adb05299e9f31--

.

On 18 January 2016 at 18:43, Matthew Woehlke <mwoehlke.floss@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2016-01-18 11:19, Nicol Bolas wrote:
>> On Monday, January 18, 2016 at 10:45:08 AM UTC-5, Matthew Woehlke wrote:
>>> Do you propose this as a library feature or a language feature? (Yes, a
>>> library solution, even for the syntax as written, is possible! See
>>> attached.)
>>
>> Ideaone doesn't seem to like your code very much <http://ideone.com/NnTJHN>.
>
> That's... interesting. It's fine on GCC 4.8 (https://goo.gl/uTl1VK), but
> not 4.9 or clang. Apparently I don't grok the look-up rules for 'begin'
> in this context. I'm not sure that can't be remedied without a language
> change, though?

The rules for range-for changed at the very end of the C++11
standardization process.
Your begin/end for int will not be found. gcc 4.8 uses the draft
semantics from pre-standard
time.

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.

On 18 January 2016 at 18:55, Andrew Tomazos <andrewtomazos@gmail.com> wrote:
>> So all of this is purely anecdotal?
> Getting a perfectly random sample of all C++ code is impossible - so yes, we
> have to make certain assumptions.  I think the assumption that shipping
> "production" open source code is representative of propretiary code is not
> completely bold - considering a lot of the code was propretiary and then
> open sourced for business reasons that I wouldnt expect to bias the sample.


Perhaps the first assumption that should be made is that when looking at such
a 1% sample, and not finding uses of certain library facilities or
their equivalents,
is to not think that such a lack of hits in a 1% sample proves
anything to anyone.
Calling that "evidence" is ridiculous.

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Am 18.01.2016 um 17:45 schrieb Andrew Tomazos:
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 5:37 PM, Ville Voutilainen
> <ville.voutilainen@gmail.com <mailto:ville.voutilainen@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     On 18 January 2016 at 18:32, Andrew Tomazos
>     <andrewtomazos@gmail.com <mailto:andrewtomazos@gmail.com>> wrote:
>     >> > I have a corpus of 20,000 open source C/C++ projects that are
>     shipping
>     >> > and
>     >> > packaged totaling 2.5 million source files and 300M sloccount
>     taken from
>     >> > a
>     >> > popular Linux package repository.  It includes things like
>     all of Qt,
>     >> > boost,
>     >> > vtk, cern root, llvm, chromium, mozilla, to just name a tiny
>     few.  I
>     >> > think
>     >>
>     >> That's nice.
>     >>
>     >> > it's sufficiently large enough and unbiased enough sample to
>     extrapolate
>     >> > aggregates to all C++ code - in most cases at least - and
>     certainly the
>     >> > ones
>     >>
>     >> Well, that takes home the prize of the most outrageous
>     statement on these
>     >> forums
>     >> in quite a while.
>     > I guess you strongly disagree with my statement, care to say why?
>
>
>     I disagree that your corpus is large enough and unbiased enough to
>     extrapolate
>     anything to all C++ code.
>
>
> First point, size: how much production C++ code is there under active
> development?  Can't be much more than 3B lines?  A 1% sample is pretty
> good.  Do you have a different estimate of this number?
>
> Second point, bias: Well it's targeting Linux, but a lot of the code
> and libraries are cross-platform.  It's open source, but it doesn't
> look too different than the proprietary code I've seen.
>
> What am I missing?
All the proprietary code out there in the wild of which nobody in the
world knows how much there is, how much is actively developed, what
language version it's using (due to portability), or what policies the
coding guidelines enforce. So your 3B estimate (or anyone else's
estimate) is just pointless.

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<html>
  <head>
    <meta content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" http-equiv=3D"Content-Type=
">
  </head>
  <body bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000">
    Am 18.01.2016 um 17:45 schrieb Andrew Tomazos:<br>
    <blockquote
cite=3D"mid:CAB+4KHK9i5sfG=3Dn1iP88JukjCL8SOpjgWonJ1yoZSeZ1dQno+A@mail.gmai=
l.com"
      type=3D"cite">
      <div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
        <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
          <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 5:37 PM,
            Ville Voutilainen <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a
                moz-do-not-send=3D"true"
                href=3D"mailto:ville.voutilainen@gmail.com"
                target=3D"_blank"><a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" hre=
f=3D"mailto:ville.voutilainen@gmail.com">ville.voutilainen@gmail.com</a></a=
>&gt;</span>
            wrote:<br>
            <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0
              .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span
                class=3D"">On 18 January 2016 at 18:32, Andrew Tomazos
                &lt;<a moz-do-not-send=3D"true"
                  href=3D"mailto:andrewtomazos@gmail.com">andrewtomazos@gma=
il.com</a>&gt;
                wrote:<br>
                &gt;&gt; &gt; I have a corpus of 20,000 open source
                C/C++ projects that are shipping<br>
                &gt;&gt; &gt; and<br>
                &gt;&gt; &gt; packaged totaling 2.5 million source files
                and 300M sloccount taken from<br>
                &gt;&gt; &gt; a<br>
                &gt;&gt; &gt; popular Linux package repository.=C2=A0 It
                includes things like all of Qt,<br>
                &gt;&gt; &gt; boost,<br>
                &gt;&gt; &gt; vtk, cern root, llvm, chromium, mozilla,
                to just name a tiny few.=C2=A0 I<br>
                &gt;&gt; &gt; think<br>
                &gt;&gt;<br>
                &gt;&gt; That's nice.<br>
                &gt;&gt;<br>
                &gt;&gt; &gt; it's sufficiently large enough and
                unbiased enough sample to extrapolate<br>
                &gt;&gt; &gt; aggregates to all C++ code - in most cases
                at least - and certainly the<br>
                &gt;&gt; &gt; ones<br>
                &gt;&gt;<br>
                &gt;&gt; Well, that takes home the prize of the most
                outrageous statement on these<br>
                &gt;&gt; forums<br>
                &gt;&gt; in quite a while.<br>
                &gt; I guess you strongly disagree with my statement,
                care to say why?<br>
                <br>
                <br>
              </span>I disagree that your corpus is large enough and
              unbiased enough to extrapolate<br>
              anything to all C++ code.</blockquote>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>First point, size: how much production C++ code is
              there under active development?=C2=A0 Can't be much more than
              3B lines?=C2=A0 A 1% sample is pretty good.=C2=A0 Do you have=
 a
              different estimate of this number?</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>Second point, bias: Well it's targeting Linux, but a
              lot of the code and libraries are cross-platform.=C2=A0 It's
              open source, but it doesn't look too different than the
              proprietary code I've seen.</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>What am I missing?<br>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    All the proprietary code out there in the wild of which nobody in
    the world knows how much there is, how much is actively developed,
    what language version it's using (due to portability), or what
    policies the coding guidelines enforce. So your 3B estimate (or
    anyone else's estimate) is just pointless.<br>
  </body>
</html>

<p></p>

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--------------010002000107050606090800--

.

On 1/18/2016 1:54 PM, Matthew Woehlke wrote:
> On 2016-01-18 11:46, Agust=C3=ADn K-ballo Berg=C3=A9 wrote:
>> On 1/18/2016 1:33 PM, Matthew Woehlke wrote:
>>> On 2016-01-18 09:45, Agust=C3=ADn K-ballo Berg=C3=A9 wrote:
>>>> Some people claim to have implemented the library solution for persona=
l
>>>> use, which would suggest they do use such a facility. Perhaps they do =
so
>>>> only outside a range-based for-loop, since that has its merits too, so
>>>> it would be worth a follow up with them.
>>>
>>> Er... huh? The library solution is only usable from *within* a
>>> range-based for.
>>
>> How would a library solution be ill-formed when used outside a
>> range-based for? A range of integers is still a range of integers.
>
> Maybe I misunderstand. Do you mean *entirely outside of a for loop*?
> Because I don't see how you would use an index range inside a
> traditional for loop=C2=B9.

I mean in any place where you would use a range.

Regards,
--=20
Agust=C3=ADn K-ballo Berg=C3=A9.-
http://talesofcpp.fusionfenix.com

--=20

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On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 6:01 PM, Ville Voutilainen <
ville.voutilainen@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 18 January 2016 at 18:55, Andrew Tomazos <andrewtomazos@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> So all of this is purely anecdotal?
> > Getting a perfectly random sample of all C++ code is impossible - so
> yes, we
> > have to make certain assumptions.  I think the assumption that shipping
> > "production" open source code is representative of propretiary code is
> not
> > completely bold - considering a lot of the code was propretiary and then
> > open sourced for business reasons that I wouldnt expect to bias the
> sample.
>
>
> Perhaps the first assumption that should be made is that when looking at
> such
> a 1% sample, and not finding uses of certain library facilities or
> their equivalents,
> is to not think that such a lack of hits in a 1% sample proves
> anything to anyone.
> Calling that "evidence" is ridiculous.
>

Sorry, but that is plain wrong.  Extrapolating from a sample is a standard
scientific method used in all kinds of fields.  We can even calculate a
confidence interval.  Given a random 1% sample of 3B balls, finding that
none of the sample are red, we can say that the probability that less than
X% of the population are red is Y% - for various pairs of X,Y.  When X is
very low and Y is very high, it should sway any rational person.

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 6:01 PM, Ville Voutilainen <span dir=3D"ltr">&l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:ville.voutilainen@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">ville.vo=
utilainen@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"=
>On 18 January 2016 at 18:55, Andrew Tomazos &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andrewto=
mazos@gmail.com">andrewtomazos@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; So all of this is purely anecdotal?<br>
&gt; Getting a perfectly random sample of all C++ code is impossible - so y=
es, we<br>
&gt; have to make certain assumptions.=C2=A0 I think the assumption that sh=
ipping<br>
&gt; &quot;production&quot; open source code is representative of propretia=
ry code is not<br>
&gt; completely bold - considering a lot of the code was propretiary and th=
en<br>
&gt; open sourced for business reasons that I wouldnt expect to bias the sa=
mple.<br>
<br>
<br>
Perhaps the first assumption that should be made is that when looking at su=
ch<br>
a 1% sample, and not finding uses of certain library facilities or<br>
their equivalents,<br>
is to not think that such a lack of hits in a 1% sample proves<br>
anything to anyone.<br>
Calling that &quot;evidence&quot; is ridiculous.<br></blockquote><div><br><=
/div><div>Sorry, but that is plain wrong.=C2=A0 Extrapolating from a sample=
 is a standard scientific method used in all kinds of fields.=C2=A0 We can =
even calculate a confidence interval.=C2=A0 Given a random 1% sample of 3B =
balls, finding that none of the sample are red, we can say that the probabi=
lity that less than X% of the population are red is Y% - for various pairs =
of X,Y.=C2=A0 When X is very low and Y is very high, it should sway any rat=
ional person.</div><div><br></div></div></div></div>

<p></p>

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--001a114242a457d0a105299efd74--

.

On 18 January 2016 at 19:21, Andrew Tomazos <andrewtomazos@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sorry, but that is plain wrong.  Extrapolating from a sample is a standard
> scientific method used in all kinds of fields.  We can even calculate a

Yes, especially in fields where the sample supports a theory that
makes predictions,
which is hardly the case here.

> confidence interval.  Given a random 1% sample of 3B balls, finding that
> none of the sample are red, we can say that the probability that less than
> X% of the population are red is Y% - for various pairs of X,Y.  When X is
> very low and Y is very high, it should sway any rational person.

Well, you're certainly more than welcome to continue arguing that your sample
'proves' that "people wouldn't use a library facility, because it
requires an include".
I don't think that will have the effect you want it to have.

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On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 7:02 PM, Ville Voutilainen <
ville.voutilainen@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 18 January 2016 at 19:21, Andrew Tomazos <andrewtomazos@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Sorry, but that is plain wrong.  Extrapolating from a sample is a
> standard
> > scientific method used in all kinds of fields.  We can even calculate a
>
> Yes, especially in fields where the sample supports a theory that
> makes predictions,
> which is hardly the case here.
>
> > confidence interval.  Given a random 1% sample of 3B balls, finding that
> > none of the sample are red, we can say that the probability that less
> than
> > X% of the population are red is Y% - for various pairs of X,Y.  When X is
> > very low and Y is very high, it should sway any rational person.
>
> Well, you're certainly more than welcome to continue arguing that your
> sample
> 'proves' that "people wouldn't use a library facility, because it
> requires an include".
> I don't think that will have the effect you want it to have.
>
>
If I find a very large number of Range-Based For Loops (showing prevelence
of C++11 use), a very large number of `for (int i = 0; i < n; ++i)` loops
and virtually no irange-style for loops `for (int i : irange(N))` or
similar, we can confidently conclude that people prefer `for (int i = 0; i
< n; ++i)` to `for (int i : irange(N))`.  That would be a completely
reasonable and uncontroversial conclusion from the data.

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 7:02 PM, Ville Voutilainen <span dir=3D"ltr">&l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:ville.voutilainen@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">ville.vo=
utilainen@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-col=
or:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=
=3D"">On 18 January 2016 at 19:21, Andrew Tomazos &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:and=
rewtomazos@gmail.com">andrewtomazos@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; Sorry, but that is plain wrong.=C2=A0 Extrapolating from a sample is a=
 standard<br>
&gt; scientific method used in all kinds of fields.=C2=A0 We can even calcu=
late a<br>
<br>
</span>Yes, especially in fields where the sample supports a theory that<br=
>
makes predictions,<br>
which is hardly the case here.<br>
<span class=3D""><br>
&gt; confidence interval.=C2=A0 Given a random 1% sample of 3B balls, findi=
ng that<br>
&gt; none of the sample are red, we can say that the probability that less =
than<br>
&gt; X% of the population are red is Y% - for various pairs of X,Y.=C2=A0 W=
hen X is<br>
&gt; very low and Y is very high, it should sway any rational person.<br>
<br>
</span>Well, you&#39;re certainly more than welcome to continue arguing tha=
t your sample<br>
&#39;proves&#39; that &quot;people wouldn&#39;t use a library facility, bec=
ause it<br>
requires an include&quot;.<br>
I don&#39;t think that will have the effect you want it to have.<br>
<div class=3D""><div class=3D"h5"><br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></d=
iv><div>If I find a very large number of Range-Based For Loops (showing pre=
velence of C++11 use), a very large number of `for (int i =3D 0; i &lt; n; =
++i)` loops and virtually no irange-style for loops `for (int i : irange(N)=
)` or similar, we can confidently conclude that people prefer `for (int i =
=3D 0; i &lt; n; ++i)` to `for (int i : irange(N))`.=C2=A0 That would be a =
completely reasonable and uncontroversial conclusion from the data.</div></=
div><br></div></div>

<p></p>

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--001a1141997408029805299fc0c5--

.

On 18 January 2016 at 20:16, Andrew Tomazos <andrewtomazos@gmail.com> wrote:
> If I find a very large number of Range-Based For Loops (showing prevelence
> of C++11 use), a very large number of `for (int i = 0; i < n; ++i)` loops
> and virtually no irange-style for loops `for (int i : irange(N))` or
> similar, we can confidently conclude that people prefer `for (int i = 0; i <
> n; ++i)` to `for (int i : irange(N))`.  That would be a completely
> reasonable and uncontroversial conclusion from the data.

If you want that to be an even remotely close to an uncontroversial conclusion,
you're going to look at only the projects that use both C++11 and
boost (in order to make
sure an 'irange' is available to begin with). That combination
is even smaller than your 1% sample, so you can call it "reasonable
and uncontroversial"
all you want, but that insistence doesn't make it so. But, again, if you want to
rely on these findings to attempt to provide motivation for a language
proposal, by
all means, it's not like I can convince you to avoid questionable motivation.

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--001a11401574c92fa405299fe7c7
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On 18 January 2016 at 18:16, Andrew Tomazos <andrewtomazos@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 7:02 PM, Ville Voutilainen <
> ville.voutilainen@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 18 January 2016 at 19:21, Andrew Tomazos <andrewtomazos@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > Sorry, but that is plain wrong.  Extrapolating from a sample is a
>> standard
>> > scientific method used in all kinds of fields.  We can even calculate a
>>
>> Yes, especially in fields where the sample supports a theory that
>> makes predictions,
>> which is hardly the case here.
>>
>> > confidence interval.  Given a random 1% sample of 3B balls, finding that
>> > none of the sample are red, we can say that the probability that less
>> than
>> > X% of the population are red is Y% - for various pairs of X,Y.  When X
>> is
>> > very low and Y is very high, it should sway any rational person.
>>
>> Well, you're certainly more than welcome to continue arguing that your
>> sample
>> 'proves' that "people wouldn't use a library facility, because it
>> requires an include".
>> I don't think that will have the effect you want it to have.
>>
>>
> If I find a very large number of Range-Based For Loops (showing prevelence
> of C++11 use), a very large number of `for (int i = 0; i < n; ++i)` loops
> and virtually no irange-style for loops `for (int i : irange(N))` or
> similar, we can confidently conclude that people prefer `for (int i = 0; i
> < n; ++i)` to `for (int i : irange(N))`.  That would be a completely
> reasonable and uncontroversial conclusion from the data.
>

what percentage of projects that include at least one boost header also
includes an irange use? same question for any other library that has a
numeric range function.

how many old school for loops were committed after the point that that
project moved to c++11? what's the ratio of new vs old vs range style in
recent commits?

which for-loop do style guides of prominent open source projects recommend
new code to use?

how many projects have implemented something like matthew's solution? it
seems fair to reason that if this was desired, and is possible without a
language feature, then people would be doing it, no?

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On 18 January 2016 at 18:16, Andrew Tomazos <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:andrewtomazos@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">andrewtomazos@gmail=
..com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"lt=
r"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><span>On M=
on, Jan 18, 2016 at 7:02 PM, Ville Voutilainen <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:ville.voutilainen@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">ville.voutilaine=
n@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(2=
04,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><span>On 18 January 2=
016 at 19:21, Andrew Tomazos &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andrewtomazos@gmail.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">andrewtomazos@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; Sorry, but that is plain wrong.=C2=A0 Extrapolating from a sample is a=
 standard<br>
&gt; scientific method used in all kinds of fields.=C2=A0 We can even calcu=
late a<br>
<br>
</span>Yes, especially in fields where the sample supports a theory that<br=
>
makes predictions,<br>
which is hardly the case here.<br>
<span><br>
&gt; confidence interval.=C2=A0 Given a random 1% sample of 3B balls, findi=
ng that<br>
&gt; none of the sample are red, we can say that the probability that less =
than<br>
&gt; X% of the population are red is Y% - for various pairs of X,Y.=C2=A0 W=
hen X is<br>
&gt; very low and Y is very high, it should sway any rational person.<br>
<br>
</span>Well, you&#39;re certainly more than welcome to continue arguing tha=
t your sample<br>
&#39;proves&#39; that &quot;people wouldn&#39;t use a library facility, bec=
ause it<br>
requires an include&quot;.<br>
I don&#39;t think that will have the effect you want it to have.<br>
<div><div><br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>If I find=
 a very large number of Range-Based For Loops (showing prevelence of C++11 =
use), a very large number of `for (int i =3D 0; i &lt; n; ++i)` loops and v=
irtually no irange-style for loops `for (int i : irange(N))` or similar, we=
 can confidently conclude that people prefer `for (int i =3D 0; i &lt; n; +=
+i)` to `for (int i : irange(N))`.=C2=A0 That would be a completely reasona=
ble and uncontroversial conclusion from the data.</div></div></div></div></=
blockquote><div><br></div><div>what percentage of projects that include at =
least one boost header also includes an irange use? same question for any o=
ther library that has a numeric range function.<br><br></div><div>how many =
old school for loops were committed after the point that that project moved=
 to c++11? what&#39;s the ratio of new vs old vs range style in recent comm=
its?<br><br></div><div>which for-loop do style guides of prominent open sou=
rce projects recommend new code to use? <br><br></div><div>how many project=
s have implemented something like matthew&#39;s solution? it seems fair to =
reason that if this was desired, and is possible without a language feature=
, then people would be doing it, no?<br></div></div><br></div></div>

<p></p>

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--001a11401574c92fa405299fe7c7--

.

On 1/18/2016 3:16 PM, Andrew Tomazos wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 7:02 PM, Ville Voutilainen
> <ville.voutilainen@gmail.com <mailto:ville.voutilainen@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     On 18 January 2016 at 19:21, Andrew Tomazos <andrewtomazos@gmail.com
>     <mailto:andrewtomazos@gmail.com>> wrote:
>     > Sorry, but that is plain wrong.  Extrapolating from a sample is a s=
tandard
>     > scientific method used in all kinds of fields.  We can even calcula=
te a
>
>     Yes, especially in fields where the sample supports a theory that
>     makes predictions,
>     which is hardly the case here.
>
>     > confidence interval.  Given a random 1% sample of 3B balls, finding=
 that
>     > none of the sample are red, we can say that the probability that le=
ss than
>     > X% of the population are red is Y% - for various pairs of X,Y.  Whe=
n X is
>     > very low and Y is very high, it should sway any rational person.
>
>     Well, you're certainly more than welcome to continue arguing that
>     your sample
>     'proves' that "people wouldn't use a library facility, because it
>     requires an include".
>     I don't think that will have the effect you want it to have.
>
>
> If I find a very large number of Range-Based For Loops (showing
> prevelence of C++11 use), a very large number of `for (int i =3D 0; i < n=
;
> ++i)` loops and virtually no irange-style for loops `for (int i :
> irange(N))` or similar, we can confidently conclude that people prefer
> `for (int i =3D 0; i < n; ++i)` to `for (int i : irange(N))`.  That would
> be a completely reasonable and uncontroversial conclusion from the data.

How do you conclude that the motivation behind this is "preference"?

Again, I would interpret this data as lack of interest in the=20
index-based for-loop proposal.

Regards,
--=20
Agust=C3=ADn K-ballo Berg=C3=A9.-
http://talesofcpp.fusionfenix.com

--=20

---=20
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On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 7:41 PM, Agust=C3=ADn K-ballo Berg=C3=A9 <
kaballo86@hotmail.com> wrote:

> On 1/18/2016 3:16 PM, Andrew Tomazos wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 7:02 PM, Ville Voutilainen
>> <ville.voutilainen@gmail.com <mailto:ville.voutilainen@gmail.com>> wrote=
:
>>
>>     On 18 January 2016 at 19:21, Andrew Tomazos <andrewtomazos@gmail.com
>>     <mailto:andrewtomazos@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>     > Sorry, but that is plain wrong.  Extrapolating from a sample is a
>> standard
>>     > scientific method used in all kinds of fields.  We can even
>> calculate a
>>
>>     Yes, especially in fields where the sample supports a theory that
>>     makes predictions,
>>     which is hardly the case here.
>>
>>     > confidence interval.  Given a random 1% sample of 3B balls, findin=
g
>> that
>>     > none of the sample are red, we can say that the probability that
>> less than
>>     > X% of the population are red is Y% - for various pairs of X,Y.
>> When X is
>>     > very low and Y is very high, it should sway any rational person.
>>
>>     Well, you're certainly more than welcome to continue arguing that
>>     your sample
>>     'proves' that "people wouldn't use a library facility, because it
>>     requires an include".
>>     I don't think that will have the effect you want it to have.
>>
>>
>> If I find a very large number of Range-Based For Loops (showing
>> prevelence of C++11 use), a very large number of `for (int i =3D 0; i < =
n;
>> ++i)` loops and virtually no irange-style for loops `for (int i :
>> irange(N))` or similar, we can confidently conclude that people prefer
>> `for (int i =3D 0; i < n; ++i)` to `for (int i : irange(N))`.  That woul=
d
>> be a completely reasonable and uncontroversial conclusion from the data.
>>
>
> How do you conclude that the motivation behind this is "preference"?
>

The possibility of implementing and using an irange-style library solution
`for (int i : irange(N))` came about with Range-Based For Loops.  Assuming
the above data, it shows that people chose not to implement and use such a
solution, and instead continued using `for (int i =3D 0; i < N; i++)`.  Wha=
t
other explanation is there, other than they prefer the latter for some
reason?  (As discussed previously, the reason I speculate for this
preference is the verbosity and library overhead.)


> Again, I would interpret this data as lack of interest in the index-based
> for-loop proposal.
>

Let's conduct a little thought experiment:  Assume that the core language
solution index-based for loop `for (int i : N)` was adopted as proposed,
and that after it has been implemented in your C++ compiler, you were going
to write a for loop for an index sequence.  Would you write `for (int i =3D
0; i < N; ++i)` or would you write `for (int i : N)`?  I think most people
would write the latter.

--=20

---=20
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On M=
on, Jan 18, 2016 at 7:41 PM, Agust=C3=ADn K-ballo Berg=C3=A9 <span dir=3D"l=
tr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kaballo86@hotmail.com" target=3D"_blank">kaballo8=
6@hotmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
yle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span=
 class=3D"">On 1/18/2016 3:16 PM, Andrew Tomazos wrote:<br>
</span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-=
left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D"">On Mon, Jan 18, 2016=
 at 7:02 PM, Ville Voutilainen<br></span><span class=3D"">
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ville.voutilainen@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">ville.=
voutilainen@gmail.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ville.voutilainen@gm=
ail.com" target=3D"_blank">ville.voutilainen@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<b=
r>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On 18 January 2016 at 19:21, Andrew Tomazos &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:andrewtomazos@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">andrewtomazos@gmail.com</a>=
<br></span><span class=3D"">
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:andrewtomazos@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">andrewtomazos@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Sorry, but that is plain wrong.=C2=A0 Extrapolating from=
 a sample is a standard<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; scientific method used in all kinds of fields.=C2=A0 We =
can even calculate a<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Yes, especially in fields where the sample supports a theory =
that<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 makes predictions,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 which is hardly the case here.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; confidence interval.=C2=A0 Given a random 1% sample of 3=
B balls, finding that<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; none of the sample are red, we can say that the probabil=
ity that less than<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; X% of the population are red is Y% - for various pairs o=
f X,Y.=C2=A0 When X is<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; very low and Y is very high, it should sway any rational=
 person.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Well, you&#39;re certainly more than welcome to continue argu=
ing that<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 your sample<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &#39;proves&#39; that &quot;people wouldn&#39;t use a library=
 facility, because it<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 requires an include&quot;.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I don&#39;t think that will have the effect you want it to ha=
ve.<br>
<br>
<br>
If I find a very large number of Range-Based For Loops (showing<br>
prevelence of C++11 use), a very large number of `for (int i =3D 0; i &lt; =
n;<br>
++i)` loops and virtually no irange-style for loops `for (int i :<br>
irange(N))` or similar, we can confidently conclude that people prefer<br>
`for (int i =3D 0; i &lt; n; ++i)` to `for (int i : irange(N))`.=C2=A0 That=
 would<br>
be a completely reasonable and uncontroversial conclusion from the data.<br=
>
</span></blockquote>
<br>
How do you conclude that the motivation behind this is &quot;preference&quo=
t;?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The possibility of implementing and=
 using an irange-style library solution `for (int i : irange(N))` came abou=
t with Range-Based For Loops.=C2=A0 Assuming the above data, it shows that =
people chose not to implement and use such a solution, and instead continue=
d using `for (int i =3D 0; i &lt; N; i++)`.=C2=A0 What other explanation is=
 there, other than they prefer the latter for some reason? =C2=A0(As discus=
sed previously, the reason I speculate for this preference is the verbosity=
 and library overhead.)</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex=
">
Again, I would interpret this data as lack of interest in the index-based f=
or-loop proposal.<span class=3D"im HOEnZb"><br></span></blockquote><div>=C2=
=A0</div><div>Let&#39;s conduct a little thought experiment: =C2=A0Assume t=
hat the core language solution index-based for loop `for (int i : N)` was a=
dopted as proposed, and that after it has been implemented in your C++ comp=
iler, you were going to write a for loop for an index sequence.=C2=A0 Would=
 you write `for (int i =3D 0; i &lt; N; ++i)` or would you write `for (int =
i : N)`?=C2=A0 I think most people would write the latter.</div><div><br></=
div></div></div></div>

<p></p>

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--001a1147dc98cd27000529a28656--

.

On 2016-01-18 16:35, Andrew Tomazos wrote:
> The possibility of implementing and using an irange-style library solution
> `for (int i : irange(N))` came about with Range-Based For Loops.  Assuming
> the above data, it shows that people chose not to implement and use such a
> solution, and instead continued using `for (int i = 0; i < N; i++)`.  What
> other explanation is there, other than they prefer the latter for some
> reason?

- They are lazy.
- The idea didn't occur to them.
- No such loops have been written since range-based for became an option.
- They don't understand why it is better.

> (As discussed previously, the reason I speculate for this
> preference is the verbosity and library overhead.)

I especially don't buy the verbosity excuse. In private projects
especially, it's not hard to make the library version shorter (e.g. name
it "ir()" or some such). It's also not hard to have the necessary
include in some header that is almost certainly included anyway.

> Let's conduct a little thought experiment:  Assume that the core language
> solution index-based for loop `for (int i : N)` was adopted as proposed,
> and that after it has been implemented in your C++ compiler, you were going
> to write a for loop for an index sequence.  Would you write `for (int i =
> 0; i < N; ++i)` or would you write `for (int i : N)`?  I think most people
> would write the latter.

I *already* write:

  for (auto const i : indexrange(N))

....i.e. I already *don't* use the old-style loop.

--
Matthew

--

---
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Am 18.01.2016 um 22:35 schrieb Andrew Tomazos:
> On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 7:41 PM, Agust=C3=ADn K-ballo Berg=C3=A9=20
> <kaballo86@hotmail.com <mailto:kaballo86@hotmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     On 1/18/2016 3:16 PM, Andrew Tomazos wrote:
>
>         On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 7:02 PM, Ville Voutilainen
>         <ville.voutilainen@gmail.com
>         <mailto:ville.voutilainen@gmail.com>
>         <mailto:ville.voutilainen@gmail.com
>         <mailto:ville.voutilainen@gmail.com>>> wrote:
>
>             On 18 January 2016 at 19:21, Andrew Tomazos
>         <andrewtomazos@gmail.com <mailto:andrewtomazos@gmail.com>
>             <mailto:andrewtomazos@gmail.com
>         <mailto:andrewtomazos@gmail.com>>> wrote:
>             > Sorry, but that is plain wrong. Extrapolating from a
>         sample is a standard
>             > scientific method used in all kinds of fields.  We can
>         even calculate a
>
>             Yes, especially in fields where the sample supports a
>         theory that
>             makes predictions,
>             which is hardly the case here.
>
>             > confidence interval.  Given a random 1% sample of 3B
>         balls, finding that
>             > none of the sample are red, we can say that the
>         probability that less than
>             > X% of the population are red is Y% - for various pairs
>         of X,Y.  When X is
>             > very low and Y is very high, it should sway any rational
>         person.
>
>             Well, you're certainly more than welcome to continue
>         arguing that
>             your sample
>             'proves' that "people wouldn't use a library facility,
>         because it
>             requires an include".
>             I don't think that will have the effect you want it to have.
>
>
>         If I find a very large number of Range-Based For Loops (showing
>         prevelence of C++11 use), a very large number of `for (int i =3D
>         0; i < n;
>         ++i)` loops and virtually no irange-style for loops `for (int i :
>         irange(N))` or similar, we can confidently conclude that
>         people prefer
>         `for (int i =3D 0; i < n; ++i)` to `for (int i : irange(N))`.=20
>         That would
>         be a completely reasonable and uncontroversial conclusion from
>         the data.
>
>
>     How do you conclude that the motivation behind this is "preference"?
>
>
> The possibility of implementing and using an irange-style library=20
> solution `for (int i : irange(N))` came about with Range-Based For=20
> Loops.  Assuming the above data, it shows that people chose not to=20
> implement and use such a solution, and instead continued using `for=20
> (int i =3D 0; i < N; i++)`.  What other explanation is there, other than=
=20
> they prefer the latter for some reason?  (As discussed previously, the=20
> reason I speculate for this preference is the verbosity and library=20
> overhead.)
Maybe they just don't know about range based for? Not every C++=20
programmer is a C++ enthusiast who is always on the edge of the latest=20
and greatest language feature. At CppCon 2014 it was revealed that=20
Google disadvise or outright forbid people from using certain C++11=20
features (not range-based-for but you get the point) because "people=20
don't understand them". If you work at such a place, are you always=20
motivated to follow the latest developments if you can't make use of=20
these features?

If someone choses option B, it's not always because they prefer it over=20
option A. Sometimes it's just ignorance.
>
>     Again, I would interpret this data as lack of interest in the
>     index-based for-loop proposal.
>
> Let's conduct a little thought experiment:  Assume that the core=20
> language solution index-based for loop `for (int i : N)` was adopted=20
> as proposed, and that after it has been implemented in your C++=20
> compiler, you were going to write a for loop for an index sequence. =20
> Would you write `for (int i =3D 0; i < N; ++i)` or would you write `for=
=20
> (int i : N)`?  I think most people would write the latter.
I would curse the feature the first time I needed to write a loop from 3=20
to 42, forcing me to go back to the old syntax and replace half the=20
line. "How do I specify a starting value" is going to be the #1 question=20
about this feature on SO. The feature as proposed is *too* specialized=20
in my opinion. It only solves one special case instead of being=20
general-purpose. I cannot use it to pass an integer range to an=20
algorithm or compose it with range adaptors. It changes what the literal=20
"5" stands for, even inside the for loop the "5" inside "foo(5)" means=20
something different than "5" on its own. That's just weird.

I have often tinkered with the idea of having a "first..last" operator=20
(two dots not three because packs) to create ranges (as that requires a=20
bunch of boilerplate), but I'm always running into some issues and=20
adding a new operator to the language comes with a whole set of its own=20
problems.

--=20

---=20
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">
  </head>
  <body bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000">
    Am 18.01.2016 um 22:35 schrieb Andrew Tomazos:<br>
    <blockquote
cite=3D"mid:CAB+4KHKRKZU+k92WzK9wbBbz3Ux0A6b-M5Vbp36waGx0chY3Ag@mail.gmail.=
com"
      type=3D"cite">
      <div dir=3D"ltr">
        <div class=3D"gmail_extra">
          <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 7:41 PM,
            Agust=C3=ADn K-ballo Berg=C3=A9 <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a
                moz-do-not-send=3D"true"
                href=3D"mailto:kaballo86@hotmail.com" target=3D"_blank"><a =
class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:kaballo86@hotmail.com">ka=
ballo86@hotmail.com</a></a>&gt;</span>
            wrote:<br>
            <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0
              .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span
                class=3D"">On 1/18/2016 3:16 PM, Andrew Tomazos wrote:<br>
              </span>
              <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0
                .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span
                  class=3D"">On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 7:02 PM, Ville
                  Voutilainen<br>
                </span><span class=3D"">
                  &lt;<a moz-do-not-send=3D"true"
                    href=3D"mailto:ville.voutilainen@gmail.com"
                    target=3D"_blank">ville.voutilainen@gmail.com</a>
                  &lt;mailto:<a moz-do-not-send=3D"true"
                    href=3D"mailto:ville.voutilainen@gmail.com"
                    target=3D"_blank">ville.voutilainen@gmail.com</a>&gt;&g=
t;
                  wrote:<br>
                  <br>
                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On 18 January 2016 at 19:21, Andrew Tomazos=
 &lt;<a
                    moz-do-not-send=3D"true"
                    href=3D"mailto:andrewtomazos@gmail.com"
                    target=3D"_blank"><a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated"=
 href=3D"mailto:andrewtomazos@gmail.com">andrewtomazos@gmail.com</a></a><br=
>
                </span><span class=3D"">
                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a moz-do-not-send=3D"true"
                    href=3D"mailto:andrewtomazos@gmail.com"
                    target=3D"_blank">andrewtomazos@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt;
                  wrote:<br>
                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Sorry, but that is plain wrong.=C2=A0
                  Extrapolating from a sample is a standard<br>
                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; scientific method used in all kinds of
                  fields.=C2=A0 We can even calculate a<br>
                  <br>
                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Yes, especially in fields where the sample
                  supports a theory that<br>
                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 makes predictions,<br>
                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 which is hardly the case here.<br>
                  <br>
                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; confidence interval.=C2=A0 Given a ran=
dom 1%
                  sample of 3B balls, finding that<br>
                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; none of the sample are red, we can say=
 that
                  the probability that less than<br>
                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; X% of the population are red is Y% - f=
or
                  various pairs of X,Y.=C2=A0 When X is<br>
                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; very low and Y is very high, it should=
 sway
                  any rational person.<br>
                  <br>
                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Well, you're certainly more than welcome to
                  continue arguing that<br>
                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 your sample<br>
                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 'proves' that "people wouldn't use a librar=
y
                  facility, because it<br>
                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 requires an include".<br>
                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I don't think that will have the effect you=
 want
                  it to have.<br>
                  <br>
                  <br>
                  If I find a very large number of Range-Based For Loops
                  (showing<br>
                  prevelence of C++11 use), a very large number of `for
                  (int i =3D 0; i &lt; n;<br>
                  ++i)` loops and virtually no irange-style for loops
                  `for (int i :<br>
                  irange(N))` or similar, we can confidently conclude
                  that people prefer<br>
                  `for (int i =3D 0; i &lt; n; ++i)` to `for (int i :
                  irange(N))`.=C2=A0 That would<br>
                  be a completely reasonable and uncontroversial
                  conclusion from the data.<br>
                </span></blockquote>
              <br>
              How do you conclude that the motivation behind this is
              "preference"?<br>
            </blockquote>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>The possibility of implementing and using an
              irange-style library solution `for (int i : irange(N))`
              came about with Range-Based For Loops.=C2=A0 Assuming the abo=
ve
              data, it shows that people chose not to implement and use
              such a solution, and instead continued using `for (int i =3D
              0; i &lt; N; i++)`.=C2=A0 What other explanation is there,
              other than they prefer the latter for some reason? =C2=A0(As
              discussed previously, the reason I speculate for this
              preference is the verbosity and library overhead.)</div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    Maybe they just don't know about range based for? Not every C++
    programmer is a C++ enthusiast who is always on the edge of the
    latest and greatest language feature. At CppCon 2014 it was revealed
    that Google disadvise or outright forbid people from using certain
    C++11 features (not range-based-for but you get the point) because
    "people don't understand them". If you work at such a place, are you
    always motivated to follow the latest developments if you can't make
    use of these features?<br>
    <br>
    If someone choses option B, it's not always because they prefer it
    over option A. Sometimes it's just ignorance.<br>
    <blockquote
cite=3D"mid:CAB+4KHKRKZU+k92WzK9wbBbz3Ux0A6b-M5Vbp36waGx0chY3Ag@mail.gmail.=
com"
      type=3D"cite">
      <div dir=3D"ltr">
        <div class=3D"gmail_extra">
          <div class=3D"gmail_quote">
            <div>=C2=A0</div>
            <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0
              .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
              Again, I would interpret this data as lack of interest in
              the index-based for-loop proposal.<span class=3D"im HOEnZb"><=
br>
              </span></blockquote>
            <div>=C2=A0</div>
            <div>Let's conduct a little thought experiment: =C2=A0Assume th=
at
              the core language solution index-based for loop `for (int
              i : N)` was adopted as proposed, and that after it has
              been implemented in your C++ compiler, you were going to
              write a for loop for an index sequence.=C2=A0 Would you write
              `for (int i =3D 0; i &lt; N; ++i)` or would you write `for
              (int i : N)`?=C2=A0 I think most people would write the latte=
r.</div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    I would curse the feature the first time I needed to write a loop
    from 3 to 42, forcing me to go back to the old syntax and replace
    half the line. "How do I specify a starting value" is going to be
    the #1 question about this feature on SO. The feature as proposed is
    *too* specialized in my opinion. It only solves one special case
    instead of being general-purpose. I cannot use it to pass an integer
    range to an algorithm or compose it with range adaptors. It changes
    what the literal "5" stands for, even inside the for loop the "5"
    inside "foo(5)" means something different than "5" on its own.
    That's just weird.<br>
    <br>
    I have often tinkered with the idea of having a "first..last"
    operator (two dots not three because packs) to create ranges (as
    that requires a bunch of boilerplate), but I'm always running into
    some issues and adding a new operator to the language comes with a
    whole set of its own problems.<br>
  </body>
</html>

<p></p>

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On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 11:01 PM, Miro Knejp <miro.knejp@gmail.com> wrote:

> Am 18.01.2016 um 22:35 schrieb Andrew Tomazos:
>
> On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 7:41 PM, Agust=C3=ADn K-ballo Berg=C3=A9 <
> <kaballo86@hotmail.com>kaballo86@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 1/18/2016 3:16 PM, Andrew Tomazos wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 7:02 PM, Ville Voutilainen
>>> <ville.voutilainen@gmail.com <mailto:ville.voutilainen@gmail.com>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>     On 18 January 2016 at 19:21, Andrew Tomazos <
>>> <andrewtomazos@gmail.com>andrewtomazos@gmail.com
>>>     <mailto:andrewtomazos@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>     > Sorry, but that is plain wrong.  Extrapolating from a sample is a
>>> standard
>>>     > scientific method used in all kinds of fields.  We can even
>>> calculate a
>>>
>>>     Yes, especially in fields where the sample supports a theory that
>>>     makes predictions,
>>>     which is hardly the case here.
>>>
>>>     > confidence interval.  Given a random 1% sample of 3B balls,
>>> finding that
>>>     > none of the sample are red, we can say that the probability that
>>> less than
>>>     > X% of the population are red is Y% - for various pairs of X,Y.
>>> When X is
>>>     > very low and Y is very high, it should sway any rational person.
>>>
>>>     Well, you're certainly more than welcome to continue arguing that
>>>     your sample
>>>     'proves' that "people wouldn't use a library facility, because it
>>>     requires an include".
>>>     I don't think that will have the effect you want it to have.
>>>
>>>
>>> If I find a very large number of Range-Based For Loops (showing
>>> prevelence of C++11 use), a very large number of `for (int i =3D 0; i <=
 n;
>>> ++i)` loops and virtually no irange-style for loops `for (int i :
>>> irange(N))` or similar, we can confidently conclude that people prefer
>>> `for (int i =3D 0; i < n; ++i)` to `for (int i : irange(N))`.  That wou=
ld
>>> be a completely reasonable and uncontroversial conclusion from the data=
..
>>>
>>
>> How do you conclude that the motivation behind this is "preference"?
>>
>
> The possibility of implementing and using an irange-style library solutio=
n
> `for (int i : irange(N))` came about with Range-Based For Loops.  Assumin=
g
> the above data, it shows that people chose not to implement and use such =
a
> solution, and instead continued using `for (int i =3D 0; i < N; i++)`.  W=
hat
> other explanation is there, other than they prefer the latter for some
> reason?  (As discussed previously, the reason I speculate for this
> preference is the verbosity and library overhead.)
>
> Maybe they just don't know about range based for?
>

If they didn't know about Range-Based For, then there wouldn't be "a very
large number of Range-Based For Loops" in the data, right?

--=20

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 11:01 PM, Miro Knejp <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:miro.knejp@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">miro.knejp@gmail.com<=
/a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
 =20
   =20
 =20
  <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000"><div><div class=3D"h5">
    Am 18.01.2016 um 22:35 schrieb Andrew Tomazos:<br>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
      <div dir=3D"ltr">
        <div class=3D"gmail_extra">
          <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 7:41 PM,
            Agust=C3=ADn K-ballo Berg=C3=A9 <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:kaballo86@hotmail.com" target=3D"_blank"></a><a href=3D"mailto:k=
aballo86@hotmail.com" target=3D"_blank">kaballo86@hotmail.com</a>&gt;</span=
>
            wrote:<br>
            <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span>On 1/18/2016 3:16 PM, Andr=
ew Tomazos wrote:<br>
              </span>
              <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span>On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at =
7:02 PM, Ville
                  Voutilainen<br>
                </span><span>
                  &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ville.voutilainen@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">ville.voutilainen@gmail.com</a>
                  &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ville.voutilainen@gmail.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">ville.voutilainen@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt;
                  wrote:<br>
                  <br>
                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On 18 January 2016 at 19:21, Andrew Tomazos=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andrewtomazos@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank"></a><a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:andrewtomazos@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">andrewtomazos@gmail=
..com</a><br>
                </span><span>
                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:andrewtomazos@=
gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">andrewtomazos@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt;
                  wrote:<br>
                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Sorry, but that is plain wrong.=C2=A0
                  Extrapolating from a sample is a standard<br>
                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; scientific method used in all kinds of
                  fields.=C2=A0 We can even calculate a<br>
                  <br>
                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Yes, especially in fields where the sample
                  supports a theory that<br>
                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 makes predictions,<br>
                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 which is hardly the case here.<br>
                  <br>
                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; confidence interval.=C2=A0 Given a ran=
dom 1%
                  sample of 3B balls, finding that<br>
                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; none of the sample are red, we can say=
 that
                  the probability that less than<br>
                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; X% of the population are red is Y% - f=
or
                  various pairs of X,Y.=C2=A0 When X is<br>
                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; very low and Y is very high, it should=
 sway
                  any rational person.<br>
                  <br>
                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Well, you&#39;re certainly more than welcom=
e to
                  continue arguing that<br>
                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 your sample<br>
                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &#39;proves&#39; that &quot;people wouldn&#=
39;t use a library
                  facility, because it<br>
                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 requires an include&quot;.<br>
                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I don&#39;t think that will have the effect=
 you want
                  it to have.<br>
                  <br>
                  <br>
                  If I find a very large number of Range-Based For Loops
                  (showing<br>
                  prevelence of C++11 use), a very large number of `for
                  (int i =3D 0; i &lt; n;<br>
                  ++i)` loops and virtually no irange-style for loops
                  `for (int i :<br>
                  irange(N))` or similar, we can confidently conclude
                  that people prefer<br>
                  `for (int i =3D 0; i &lt; n; ++i)` to `for (int i :
                  irange(N))`.=C2=A0 That would<br>
                  be a completely reasonable and uncontroversial
                  conclusion from the data.<br>
                </span></blockquote>
              <br>
              How do you conclude that the motivation behind this is
              &quot;preference&quot;?<br>
            </blockquote>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>The possibility of implementing and using an
              irange-style library solution `for (int i : irange(N))`
              came about with Range-Based For Loops.=C2=A0 Assuming the abo=
ve
              data, it shows that people chose not to implement and use
              such a solution, and instead continued using `for (int i =3D
              0; i &lt; N; i++)`.=C2=A0 What other explanation is there,
              other than they prefer the latter for some reason? =C2=A0(As
              discussed previously, the reason I speculate for this
              preference is the verbosity and library overhead.)</div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote></div></div>
    Maybe they just don&#39;t know about range based for?</div></blockquote=
><div><br></div><div>If they didn&#39;t know about Range-Based For, then th=
ere wouldn&#39;t be &quot;a very large number of Range-Based For Loops&quot=
; in the data, right?</div><div><br></div></div></div></div>

<p></p>

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--001a1141997428cbd80529a2fb38--

.

On 1/18/2016 6:35 PM, Andrew Tomazos wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 7:41 PM, Agust=C3=ADn K-ballo Berg=C3=A9
> <kaballo86@hotmail.com <mailto:kaballo86@hotmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     On 1/18/2016 3:16 PM, Andrew Tomazos wrote:
>
>         On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 7:02 PM, Ville Voutilainen
>         <ville.voutilainen@gmail.com
>         <mailto:ville.voutilainen@gmail.com>
>         <mailto:ville.voutilainen@gmail.com
>         <mailto:ville.voutilainen@gmail.com>>> wrote:
>
>              On 18 January 2016 at 19:21, Andrew Tomazos
>         <andrewtomazos@gmail.com <mailto:andrewtomazos@gmail.com>
>              <mailto:andrewtomazos@gmail.com
>         <mailto:andrewtomazos@gmail.com>>> wrote:
>              > Sorry, but that is plain wrong.  Extrapolating from a
>         sample is a standard
>              > scientific method used in all kinds of fields.  We can
>         even calculate a
>
>              Yes, especially in fields where the sample supports a
>         theory that
>              makes predictions,
>              which is hardly the case here.
>
>              > confidence interval.  Given a random 1% sample of 3B
>         balls, finding that
>              > none of the sample are red, we can say that the
>         probability that less than
>              > X% of the population are red is Y% - for various pairs of
>         X,Y.  When X is
>              > very low and Y is very high, it should sway any rational
>         person.
>
>              Well, you're certainly more than welcome to continue
>         arguing that
>              your sample
>              'proves' that "people wouldn't use a library facility,
>         because it
>              requires an include".
>              I don't think that will have the effect you want it to have.
>
>
>         If I find a very large number of Range-Based For Loops (showing
>         prevelence of C++11 use), a very large number of `for (int i =3D
>         0; i < n;
>         ++i)` loops and virtually no irange-style for loops `for (int i :
>         irange(N))` or similar, we can confidently conclude that people
>         prefer
>         `for (int i =3D 0; i < n; ++i)` to `for (int i : irange(N))`.
>         That would
>         be a completely reasonable and uncontroversial conclusion from
>         the data.
>
>
>     How do you conclude that the motivation behind this is "preference"?
>
>
> The possibility of implementing and using an irange-style library
> solution `for (int i : irange(N))` came about with Range-Based For
> Loops.  Assuming the above data, it shows that people chose not to
> implement and use such a solution, and instead continued using `for (int
> i =3D 0; i < N; i++)`.  What other explanation is there, other than they
> prefer the latter for some reason?  (As discussed previously, the reason
> I speculate for this preference is the verbosity and library overhead.)

There isn't a single project I work on or contribute to that does things=20
entirely in the way I would "prefer" them to be done. The reason is not=20
because I prefer to do them in a different way, obviously, but because=20
of backwards compatibility, compiler limitations, contributors'=20
limitations, portability, etc, etc, as well as a big share of "the new=20
standard lets us do this better/nicer but we have more pressing things=20
to do than to reshuffle working tested code".

As an example, for this particular case I would happily use

     for (int i : std::irange(7, 11)) { /*...*/ }

if the standard library provided it (and I could afford using that newer=20
standard). I'm not shy of adding an extra `#include`, I already mention=20
that I occasionally leverage `std::initializer_list` in this way. But=20
until then, I do not think this feature is worth the cost of growing a=20
Boost dependency or dragging all of Boost.Range.

I could implement it myself, but then I would have to document it,=20
support it, write a comprehensive unit test suite, analyze the codegen=20
with different compilers and compilation flags, and all that stuff that=20
I expect a library implementor to do. I don't write nearly as much raw=20
strict loops from 0 to N for it to be worth the cost of implementing it.

>     Again, I would interpret this data as lack of interest in the
>     index-based for-loop proposal.
>
> Let's conduct a little thought experiment:  Assume that the core
> language solution index-based for loop `for (int i : N)` was adopted as
> proposed, and that after it has been implemented in your C++ compiler,
> you were going to write a for loop for an index sequence.  Would you
> write `for (int i =3D 0; i < N; ++i)` or would you write `for (int i :
> N)`?  I think most people would write the latter.

I am not convinced that I would, "for each i in 7" doesn't read natural=20
to me, while something like `for (int i : {0...6})` might.

It's irrelevant, however, whether I would or would not use it. I'm not=20
concerned on what might happen in a future with such a feature, but with=20
how you choose to interpret what happened in the past in a way that=20
suits your needs, while ignoring evidence that says otherwise.

But in the end, what to present to EWG as motivation for this feature is=20
entirely up to you. I have not heard anything convincing so far, you may=20
take that as an extra data point, and ignore it if you wish.

Regards,
--=20
Agust=C3=ADn K-ballo Berg=C3=A9.-
http://talesofcpp.fusionfenix.com

--=20

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.

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Am 18.01.2016 um 23:07 schrieb Andrew Tomazos:
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 11:01 PM, Miro Knejp <miro.knejp@gmail.com=20
> <mailto:miro.knejp@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     Am 18.01.2016 um 22:35 schrieb Andrew Tomazos:
>>     On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 7:41 PM, Agust=C3=ADn K-ballo Berg=C3=A9
>>     <kaballo86@hotmail.com <mailto:kaballo86@hotmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>         On 1/18/2016 3:16 PM, Andrew Tomazos wrote:
>>
>>             On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 7:02 PM, Ville Voutilainen
>>             <ville.voutilainen@gmail.com
>>             <mailto:ville.voutilainen@gmail.com>
>>             <mailto:ville.voutilainen@gmail.com
>>             <mailto:ville.voutilainen@gmail.com>>> wrote:
>>
>>                 On 18 January 2016 at 19:21, Andrew Tomazos
>>             <andrewtomazos@gmail.com <mailto:andrewtomazos@gmail.com>
>>                 <mailto:andrewtomazos@gmail.com
>>             <mailto:andrewtomazos@gmail.com>>> wrote:
>>                 > Sorry, but that is plain wrong.  Extrapolating from
>>             a sample is a standard
>>                 > scientific method used in all kinds of fields.  We
>>             can even calculate a
>>
>>                 Yes, especially in fields where the sample supports a
>>             theory that
>>                 makes predictions,
>>                 which is hardly the case here.
>>
>>                 > confidence interval.  Given a random 1% sample of
>>             3B balls, finding that
>>                 > none of the sample are red, we can say that the
>>             probability that less than
>>                 > X% of the population are red is Y% - for various
>>             pairs of X,Y. When X is
>>                 > very low and Y is very high, it should sway any
>>             rational person.
>>
>>                 Well, you're certainly more than welcome to continue
>>             arguing that
>>                 your sample
>>                 'proves' that "people wouldn't use a library
>>             facility, because it
>>                 requires an include".
>>                 I don't think that will have the effect you want it
>>             to have.
>>
>>
>>             If I find a very large number of Range-Based For Loops
>>             (showing
>>             prevelence of C++11 use), a very large number of `for
>>             (int i =3D 0; i < n;
>>             ++i)` loops and virtually no irange-style for loops `for
>>             (int i :
>>             irange(N))` or similar, we can confidently conclude that
>>             people prefer
>>             `for (int i =3D 0; i < n; ++i)` to `for (int i :
>>             irange(N))`.  That would
>>             be a completely reasonable and uncontroversial conclusion
>>             from the data.
>>
>>
>>         How do you conclude that the motivation behind this is
>>         "preference"?
>>
>>
>>     The possibility of implementing and using an irange-style library
>>     solution `for (int i : irange(N))` came about with Range-Based
>>     For Loops.  Assuming the above data, it shows that people chose
>>     not to implement and use such a solution, and instead continued
>>     using `for (int i =3D 0; i < N; i++)`.  What other explanation is
>>     there, other than they prefer the latter for some reason?  (As
>>     discussed previously, the reason I speculate for this preference
>>     is the verbosity and library overhead.)
>     Maybe they just don't know about range based for?
>
>
> If they didn't know about Range-Based For, then there wouldn't be "a=20
> very large number of Range-Based For Loops" in the data, right?
Quite perplexing indeed considering these projects are written and=20
maintained by a single person.

--=20

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<html>
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    <meta content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" http-equiv=3D"Content-Type=
">
  </head>
  <body bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000">
    Am 18.01.2016 um 23:07 schrieb Andrew Tomazos:<br>
    <blockquote
cite=3D"mid:CAB+4KHLAT-T86b0QBZpfJXjHcg6Te9ZWRig7Xdw8qLdjhXex0A@mail.gmail.=
com"
      type=3D"cite">
      <div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
        <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
          <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 11:01 PM,
            Miro Knejp <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a moz-do-not-send=3D"true"
                href=3D"mailto:miro.knejp@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">miro=
..knejp@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span>
            wrote:<br>
            <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0
              .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
              <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000">
                <div>
                  <div class=3D"h5"> Am 18.01.2016 um 22:35 schrieb Andrew
                    Tomazos:<br>
                    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
                      <div dir=3D"ltr">
                        <div class=3D"gmail_extra">
                          <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Jan 18, 2016
                            at 7:41 PM, Agust=C3=ADn K-ballo Berg=C3=A9 <sp=
an
                              dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a moz-do-not-send=3D"true"
                                href=3D"mailto:kaballo86@hotmail.com"
                                target=3D"_blank">kaballo86@hotmail.com</a>=
&gt;</span>
                            wrote:<br>
                            <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"
                              style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
                              #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span>On
                                1/18/2016 3:16 PM, Andrew Tomazos wrote:<br=
>
                              </span>
                              <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"
                                style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
                                #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span>On
                                  Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 7:02 PM, Ville
                                  Voutilainen<br>
                                </span><span> &lt;<a
                                    moz-do-not-send=3D"true"
                                    href=3D"mailto:ville.voutilainen@gmail.=
com"
                                    target=3D"_blank"><a class=3D"moz-txt-l=
ink-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:ville.voutilainen@gmail.com">ville.voutilai=
nen@gmail.com</a></a>
                                  &lt;mailto:<a moz-do-not-send=3D"true"
                                    href=3D"mailto:ville.voutilainen@gmail.=
com"
                                    target=3D"_blank">ville.voutilainen@gma=
il.com</a>&gt;&gt;

                                  wrote:<br>
                                  <br>
                                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On 18 January 2016 at 19:21=
,
                                  Andrew Tomazos &lt;<a
                                    moz-do-not-send=3D"true"
                                    href=3D"mailto:andrewtomazos@gmail.com"
                                    target=3D"_blank"><a class=3D"moz-txt-l=
ink-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:andrewtomazos@gmail.com">andrewtomazos@gmai=
l.com</a></a><br>
                                </span><span> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a
                                    moz-do-not-send=3D"true"
                                    href=3D"mailto:andrewtomazos@gmail.com"
                                    target=3D"_blank"><a class=3D"moz-txt-l=
ink-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:andrewtomazos@gmail.com">andrewtomazos@gmai=
l.com</a></a>&gt;&gt;

                                  wrote:<br>
                                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Sorry, but that is pla=
in
                                  wrong.=C2=A0 Extrapolating from a sample =
is
                                  a standard<br>
                                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; scientific method used=
 in all
                                  kinds of fields.=C2=A0 We can even
                                  calculate a<br>
                                  <br>
                                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Yes, especially in fields w=
here
                                  the sample supports a theory that<br>
                                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 makes predictions,<br>
                                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 which is hardly the case he=
re.<br>
                                  <br>
                                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; confidence interval.=
=C2=A0 Given a
                                  random 1% sample of 3B balls, finding
                                  that<br>
                                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; none of the sample are=
 red,
                                  we can say that the probability that
                                  less than<br>
                                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; X% of the population a=
re red
                                  is Y% - for various pairs of X,Y.=C2=A0
                                  When X is<br>
                                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; very low and Y is very=
 high,
                                  it should sway any rational person.<br>
                                  <br>
                                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Well, you're certainly more=
 than
                                  welcome to continue arguing that<br>
                                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 your sample<br>
                                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 'proves' that "people would=
n't use
                                  a library facility, because it<br>
                                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 requires an include".<br>
                                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I don't think that will hav=
e the
                                  effect you want it to have.<br>
                                  <br>
                                  <br>
                                  If I find a very large number of
                                  Range-Based For Loops (showing<br>
                                  prevelence of C++11 use), a very large
                                  number of `for (int i =3D 0; i &lt; n;<br=
>
                                  ++i)` loops and virtually no
                                  irange-style for loops `for (int i :<br>
                                  irange(N))` or similar, we can
                                  confidently conclude that people
                                  prefer<br>
                                  `for (int i =3D 0; i &lt; n; ++i)` to
                                  `for (int i : irange(N))`.=C2=A0 That wou=
ld<br>
                                  be a completely reasonable and
                                  uncontroversial conclusion from the
                                  data.<br>
                                </span></blockquote>
                              <br>
                              How do you conclude that the motivation
                              behind this is "preference"?<br>
                            </blockquote>
                            <div><br>
                            </div>
                            <div>The possibility of implementing and
                              using an irange-style library solution
                              `for (int i : irange(N))` came about with
                              Range-Based For Loops.=C2=A0 Assuming the abo=
ve
                              data, it shows that people chose not to
                              implement and use such a solution, and
                              instead continued using `for (int i =3D 0; i
                              &lt; N; i++)`.=C2=A0 What other explanation i=
s
                              there, other than they prefer the latter
                              for some reason? =C2=A0(As discussed
                              previously, the reason I speculate for
                              this preference is the verbosity and
                              library overhead.)</div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </blockquote>
                  </div>
                </div>
                Maybe they just don't know about range based for?</div>
            </blockquote>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>If they didn't know about Range-Based For, then there
              wouldn't be "a very large number of Range-Based For Loops"
              in the data, right?</div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    Quite perplexing indeed considering these projects are written and
    maintained by a single person.<br>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

<p></p>

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On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 11:49 PM, Miro Knejp <miro.knejp@gmail.com> wrote:

> Am 18.01.2016 um 23:07 schrieb Andrew Tomazos:
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 11:01 PM, Miro Knejp <miro.knejp@gmail.com> wrote=
:
>
>> Am 18.01.2016 um 22:35 schrieb Andrew Tomazos:
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 7:41 PM, Agust=C3=ADn K-ballo Berg=C3=A9 <
>> kaballo86@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/18/2016 3:16 PM, Andrew Tomazos wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 7:02 PM, Ville Voutilainen
>>>> < <ville.voutilainen@gmail.com>ville.voutilainen@gmail.com <mailto:
>>>> ville.voutilainen@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>     On 18 January 2016 at 19:21, Andrew Tomazos <
>>>> <andrewtomazos@gmail.com>andrewtomazos@gmail.com
>>>>     <mailto: <andrewtomazos@gmail.com>andrewtomazos@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>     > Sorry, but that is plain wrong.  Extrapolating from a sample is =
a
>>>> standard
>>>>     > scientific method used in all kinds of fields.  We can even
>>>> calculate a
>>>>
>>>>     Yes, especially in fields where the sample supports a theory that
>>>>     makes predictions,
>>>>     which is hardly the case here.
>>>>
>>>>     > confidence interval.  Given a random 1% sample of 3B balls,
>>>> finding that
>>>>     > none of the sample are red, we can say that the probability that
>>>> less than
>>>>     > X% of the population are red is Y% - for various pairs of X,Y.
>>>> When X is
>>>>     > very low and Y is very high, it should sway any rational person.
>>>>
>>>>     Well, you're certainly more than welcome to continue arguing that
>>>>     your sample
>>>>     'proves' that "people wouldn't use a library facility, because it
>>>>     requires an include".
>>>>     I don't think that will have the effect you want it to have.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If I find a very large number of Range-Based For Loops (showing
>>>> prevelence of C++11 use), a very large number of `for (int i =3D 0; i =
< n;
>>>> ++i)` loops and virtually no irange-style for loops `for (int i :
>>>> irange(N))` or similar, we can confidently conclude that people prefer
>>>> `for (int i =3D 0; i < n; ++i)` to `for (int i : irange(N))`.  That wo=
uld
>>>> be a completely reasonable and uncontroversial conclusion from the dat=
a.
>>>>
>>>
>>> How do you conclude that the motivation behind this is "preference"?
>>>
>>
>> The possibility of implementing and using an irange-style library
>> solution `for (int i : irange(N))` came about with Range-Based For Loops=
..
>> Assuming the above data, it shows that people chose not to implement and
>> use such a solution, and instead continued using `for (int i =3D 0; i < =
N;
>> i++)`.  What other explanation is there, other than they prefer the latt=
er
>> for some reason?  (As discussed previously, the reason I speculate for t=
his
>> preference is the verbosity and library overhead.)
>>
>> Maybe they just don't know about range based for?
>>
>
> If they didn't know about Range-Based For, then there wouldn't be "a very
> large number of Range-Based For Loops" in the data, right?
>
> Quite perplexing indeed considering these projects are written and
> maintained by a single person.
>

Sorry but I don't understand what you mean.  The projects are not usually
written and maintained by one person - and I don't see the relevance even
if they were.

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 11:49 PM, Miro Knejp <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:miro.knejp@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">miro.knejp@gmail.com<=
/a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
 =20
   =20
 =20
  <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000"><div><div class=3D"h5">
    Am 18.01.2016 um 23:07 schrieb Andrew Tomazos:<br>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
      <div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
        <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
          <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 11:01 PM,
            Miro Knejp <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:miro.knejp@g=
mail.com" target=3D"_blank">miro.knejp@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span>
            wrote:<br>
            <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
              <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000">
                <div>
                  <div> Am 18.01.2016 um 22:35 schrieb Andrew
                    Tomazos:<br>
                    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
                      <div dir=3D"ltr">
                        <div class=3D"gmail_extra">
                          <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Jan 18, 2016
                            at 7:41 PM, Agust=C3=ADn K-ballo Berg=C3=A9 <sp=
an dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kaballo86@hotmail.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">kaballo86@hotmail.com</a>&gt;</span>
                            wrote:<br>
                            <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span>On
                                1/18/2016 3:16 PM, Andrew Tomazos wrote:<br=
>
                              </span>
                              <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span>On
                                  Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 7:02 PM, Ville
                                  Voutilainen<br>
                                </span><span> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ville.v=
outilainen@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank"></a><a href=3D"mailto:ville.voutila=
inen@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">ville.voutilainen@gmail.com</a>
                                  &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ville.voutil=
ainen@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">ville.voutilainen@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt;

                                  wrote:<br>
                                  <br>
                                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On 18 January 2016 at 19:21=
,
                                  Andrew Tomazos &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andr=
ewtomazos@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank"></a><a href=3D"mailto:andrewtomazos@=
gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">andrewtomazos@gmail.com</a><br>
                                </span><span> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:andrewtomazos@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank"></a><a href=3D"mai=
lto:andrewtomazos@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">andrewtomazos@gmail.com</a>&=
gt;&gt;

                                  wrote:<br>
                                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Sorry, but that is pla=
in
                                  wrong.=C2=A0 Extrapolating from a sample =
is
                                  a standard<br>
                                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; scientific method used=
 in all
                                  kinds of fields.=C2=A0 We can even
                                  calculate a<br>
                                  <br>
                                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Yes, especially in fields w=
here
                                  the sample supports a theory that<br>
                                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 makes predictions,<br>
                                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 which is hardly the case he=
re.<br>
                                  <br>
                                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; confidence interval.=
=C2=A0 Given a
                                  random 1% sample of 3B balls, finding
                                  that<br>
                                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; none of the sample are=
 red,
                                  we can say that the probability that
                                  less than<br>
                                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; X% of the population a=
re red
                                  is Y% - for various pairs of X,Y.=C2=A0
                                  When X is<br>
                                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; very low and Y is very=
 high,
                                  it should sway any rational person.<br>
                                  <br>
                                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Well, you&#39;re certainly =
more than
                                  welcome to continue arguing that<br>
                                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 your sample<br>
                                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &#39;proves&#39; that &quot=
;people wouldn&#39;t use
                                  a library facility, because it<br>
                                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 requires an include&quot;.<=
br>
                                  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I don&#39;t think that will=
 have the
                                  effect you want it to have.<br>
                                  <br>
                                  <br>
                                  If I find a very large number of
                                  Range-Based For Loops (showing<br>
                                  prevelence of C++11 use), a very large
                                  number of `for (int i =3D 0; i &lt; n;<br=
>
                                  ++i)` loops and virtually no
                                  irange-style for loops `for (int i :<br>
                                  irange(N))` or similar, we can
                                  confidently conclude that people
                                  prefer<br>
                                  `for (int i =3D 0; i &lt; n; ++i)` to
                                  `for (int i : irange(N))`.=C2=A0 That wou=
ld<br>
                                  be a completely reasonable and
                                  uncontroversial conclusion from the
                                  data.<br>
                                </span></blockquote>
                              <br>
                              How do you conclude that the motivation
                              behind this is &quot;preference&quot;?<br>
                            </blockquote>
                            <div><br>
                            </div>
                            <div>The possibility of implementing and
                              using an irange-style library solution
                              `for (int i : irange(N))` came about with
                              Range-Based For Loops.=C2=A0 Assuming the abo=
ve
                              data, it shows that people chose not to
                              implement and use such a solution, and
                              instead continued using `for (int i =3D 0; i
                              &lt; N; i++)`.=C2=A0 What other explanation i=
s
                              there, other than they prefer the latter
                              for some reason? =C2=A0(As discussed
                              previously, the reason I speculate for
                              this preference is the verbosity and
                              library overhead.)</div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </blockquote>
                  </div>
                </div>
                Maybe they just don&#39;t know about range based for?</div>
            </blockquote>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>If they didn&#39;t know about Range-Based For, then there
              wouldn&#39;t be &quot;a very large number of Range-Based For =
Loops&quot;
              in the data, right?</div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote></div></div>
    Quite perplexing indeed considering these projects are written and
    maintained by a single person.<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><di=
v>Sorry but I don&#39;t understand what you mean.=C2=A0 The projects are no=
t usually written and maintained by one person - and I don&#39;t see the re=
levance even if they were.</div></div><br></div></div>

<p></p>

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On Monday, January 18, 2016 at 12:21:57 PM UTC-5, Andrew Tomazos wrote:
>
> On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 6:01 PM, Ville Voutilainen <ville.vo...@gmail.com
> <javascript:>> wrote:
>
>> Perhaps the first assumption that should be made is that when looking at
>> such
>> a 1% sample, and not finding uses of certain library facilities or
>> their equivalents,
>> is to not think that such a lack of hits in a 1% sample proves
>> anything to anyone.
>> Calling that "evidence" is ridiculous.
>>
>
> Sorry, but that is plain wrong.  Extrapolating from a sample is a standard
> scientific method used in all kinds of fields.  We can even calculate a
> confidence interval.  Given a random 1% sample of 3B balls, finding that
> none of the sample are red, we can say that the probability that less than
> X% of the population are red is Y% - for various pairs of X,Y.  When X is
> very low and Y is very high, it should sway any rational person.
>

You are correct in general; 1% of code could be a representative sample for
the purpose of knowing something. Indeed, lots of science is done with
smaller percentages. Granted, not that I necessarily buy your 1% number
(I'm fairly sure there's more than 3 billion LOC in just the videogame
industry alone), but nevermind that.

The problem is *how you select* that 1%. Avoiding selection bias
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selection_bias> is very important if you're
actually going to try to draw a conclusion from the result. And the thing
is, I wouldn't have the first clue as to how to know whether a particular
sample doesn't suffer from selection bias.

C++ is so big, so widely used, that it's extremely difficult to say that
your sample set covers all of the bases reasonably well enough.

It'd be one thing to talk about identifier names; there, sheer LOC count
can give you a good idea how much conflict creating a new keyword will
create. But we're talking about an element of coding style here, and that
varies wildly from project to project. So having a sampling size that's
representative of coding doctrine is more important than merely the LOC you
scan.

Not to mention, one of the things you're trying to prove with your LOC scan
is the veracity of this statement:

*C++11 programmers do not use `irange` or some equivalent because they do
not want to.*

That's what you are trying to provide evidence for.

I submit that even if you scanned every piece of C++ code out there and
came up with an accurate system to detect if it was using `irange` or some
equivalent when such an option is available, you still wouldn't have proven
that to be true. Why?

Because all you will have shown is that it is not an idiom in common usage.
Your statement is primarily about *why* it is not in common usage.

You believe that people wouldn't use a standard library solution because
it's one more header. Or because it's (theoretically) longer to type than
your suggestion. And so forth.

Even if you can establish as a fact that it is not a common idiom, you
*cannot* claim to know why this is the case. And therefore, your statement
is meaningless.

For all we know, if the C++ core guidelines included a rule to use such,
and the GSL included such a utility type, maybe in a year, people would be
using that idiom. If Bjarne Stroustrup suddenly started touting the
benefits of it, don't you think more people would start using it?

Some features sell themselves. Lambdas, auto (too well), variadic
templates, etc. Other features need encouragement or advertising before
they're widely used. Who's to say that `irange` wouldn't be such a feature?

Nobody's actively advertising `iota`, despite it being a useful algorithm.
Indeed, lack of advertisement for algorithms is a big factor in why many
don't get used as much as they should.

--

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On Monday, January 18, 2016 at 12:21:57 PM UTC-5, Andrew Tomazos wrote:<blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-=
left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 6:01 PM, Ville Voutilainen <span d=
ir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mai=
lto=3D"a3jAQhVnFwAJ" rel=3D"nofollow" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;javas=
cript:&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;javascript:&#39;;retu=
rn true;">ville.vo...@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex">

Perhaps the first assumption that should be made is that when looking at su=
ch<br>
a 1% sample, and not finding uses of certain library facilities or<br>
their equivalents,<br>
is to not think that such a lack of hits in a 1% sample proves<br>
anything to anyone.<br>
Calling that &quot;evidence&quot; is ridiculous.<br></blockquote><div><br><=
/div><div>Sorry, but that is plain wrong.=C2=A0 Extrapolating from a sample=
 is a standard scientific method used in all kinds of fields.=C2=A0 We can =
even calculate a confidence interval.=C2=A0 Given a random 1% sample of 3B =
balls, finding that none of the sample are red, we can say that the probabi=
lity that less than X% of the population are red is Y% - for various pairs =
of X,Y.=C2=A0 When X is very low and Y is very high, it should sway any rat=
ional person.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br>You are correct =
in general; 1% of code could be a representative sample for the purpose of =
knowing something. Indeed, lots of science is done with smaller percentages=
.. Granted, not that I necessarily buy your 1% number (I&#39;m fairly sure t=
here&#39;s more than 3 billion LOC in just the videogame industry alone), b=
ut nevermind that.<br><br>The problem is <i>how you select</i> that 1%. Avo=
iding <a href=3D"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selection_bias">selection bi=
as</a> is very important if you&#39;re actually going to try to draw a conc=
lusion from the result. And the thing is, I wouldn&#39;t have the first clu=
e as to how to know whether a particular sample doesn&#39;t suffer from sel=
ection bias.<br><br>C++ is so big, so widely used, that it&#39;s extremely =
difficult to say that your sample set covers all of the bases reasonably we=
ll enough.<br><br>It&#39;d be one thing to talk about identifier names; the=
re, sheer LOC count can give you a good idea how much conflict creating a n=
ew keyword will create. But we&#39;re talking about an element of coding st=
yle here, and that varies wildly from project to project. So having a sampl=
ing size that&#39;s representative of coding doctrine is more important tha=
n merely the LOC you scan.<br><br>Not to mention, one of the things you&#39=
;re trying to prove with your LOC scan is the veracity of this statement:<b=
r><br><u>C++11 programmers do not use `irange` or some equivalent because t=
hey do not want to.</u><br><br>That&#39;s what you are trying to provide ev=
idence for.<br><br>I submit that even if you scanned every piece of C++ cod=
e out there and came up with an accurate system to detect if it was using `=
irange` or some equivalent when such an option is available, you still woul=
dn&#39;t have proven that to be true. Why?<br><br>Because all you will have=
 shown is that it is not an idiom in common usage. Your statement is primar=
ily about <i>why</i> it is not in common usage.<br><br>You believe that peo=
ple wouldn&#39;t use a standard library solution because it&#39;s one more =
header. Or because it&#39;s (theoretically) longer to type than your sugges=
tion. And so forth.<br><br>Even if you can establish as a fact that it is n=
ot a common idiom, you <i>cannot</i> claim to know why this is the case. An=
d therefore, your statement is meaningless.<br><br>For all we know, if the =
C++ core guidelines included a rule to use such, and the GSL included such =
a utility type, maybe in a year, people would be using that idiom. If Bjarn=
e Stroustrup suddenly started touting the benefits of it, don&#39;t you thi=
nk more people would start using it?<br><br>Some features sell themselves. =
Lambdas, auto (too well), variadic templates, etc. Other features need enco=
uragement or advertising before they&#39;re widely used. Who&#39;s to say t=
hat `irange` wouldn&#39;t be such a feature?<br><br>Nobody&#39;s actively a=
dvertising `iota`, despite it being a useful algorithm. Indeed, lack of adv=
ertisement for algorithms is a big factor in why many don&#39;t get used as=
 much as they should.<br></div>

<p></p>

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regardless of 'index_iterator' being good or bad practice, possibility of
such code makes me laugh. It was right in front of everyone's eyes and I
missed it!!! in facebook I would 'like' it!!

2016-01-18 19:09 GMT+03:30 Matthew Woehlke <mwoehlke.floss@gmail.com>:

> On 2016-01-16 04:38, Andrew Tomazos wrote:
> > Please find attached a rough incomplete 2-page draft entitled "Proposal
> of
> > Index-Based For Loop"
> >
> > Preliminary thoughts appreciated.
>
> Do you propose this as a library feature or a language feature? (Yes, a
> library solution, even for the syntax as written, is possible! See
> attached.)
>
> What about real numbers? A library function to construct a range
> iterator from a value would be much more flexible (could include
> non-default start, non-default step, accommodate real numbers...). Note:
> I don't buy the "old style is more terse" argument; you can't use 'auto'
> as the iterator type with the old-style for loop (not without negating
> the "more terse" argument, at least).
>
> (As for the non-default cases being less common, I've used the "default
> case" dozens of times in many projects, and the non-default many fewer
> times, often zero.)
>
> In any case, I definitely think it's well past time we had something
> like this standardized...
>
> TBH, I think I'd like both. The common case is sufficiently common that
> is does seem that it ought to Just Work. I don't see a reason not to go
> with a pure library solution, though... anyone else?
>
> > It can be shown that the number of general for statements in existing
> > practice that have all these properties is very high (in a later
> > revision of this proposal we will provide a concrete quantification
> > of this proportion).
>
> Uh... yeah. I'd show you examples in real code where I'm using a
> range-iterator function fairly extensively, except I don't have
> permission to release the code (yet). FWIW, some stats from a couple
> projects:
>
>   sloccount    indexrange uses
>   2k           20+
>   12k          ~40
>   17k          ~80
>
> ...and I know I have other projects that, if I got the time to port to
> indexrange, would likewise use it a lot.
>
> --
> Matthew
>
> --
>
> ---
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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>



--
how am I supposed to end the twisted road of  your hair in such a dark
night??
unless the candle of your face does shed some light upon my way!!!

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<div dir=3D"rtl"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"text-align:left;font=
-family:&#39;arial narrow&#39;,sans-serif;font-size:large" dir=3D"ltr">rega=
rdless of &#39;index_iterator&#39; being good or bad practice, possibility =
of such code makes me laugh. It was right in front of everyone&#39;s eyes a=
nd I missed it!!! in facebook I would &#39;like&#39; it!!</div></div><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">2016-0=
1-18 19:09 GMT+03:30 Matthew Woehlke <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:mwoehlke.floss@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mwoehlke.floss@gmail.com</a>&=
gt;</span>:</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8=
ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D"">On 2016-01=
-16 04:38, Andrew Tomazos wrote:<br>
&gt; Please find attached a rough incomplete 2-page draft entitled &quot;Pr=
oposal of<br>
&gt; Index-Based For Loop&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Preliminary thoughts appreciated.<br>
<br>
</span>Do you propose this as a library feature or a language feature? (Yes=
, a<br>
library solution, even for the syntax as written, is possible! See<br>
attached.)<br>
<br>
What about real numbers? A library function to construct a range<br>
iterator from a value would be much more flexible (could include<br>
non-default start, non-default step, accommodate real numbers...). Note:<br=
>
I don&#39;t buy the &quot;old style is more terse&quot; argument; you can&#=
39;t use &#39;auto&#39;<br>
as the iterator type with the old-style for loop (not without negating<br>
the &quot;more terse&quot; argument, at least).<br>
<br>
(As for the non-default cases being less common, I&#39;ve used the &quot;de=
fault<br>
case&quot; dozens of times in many projects, and the non-default many fewer=
<br>
times, often zero.)<br>
<br>
In any case, I definitely think it&#39;s well past time we had something<br=
>
like this standardized...<br>
<br>
TBH, I think I&#39;d like both. The common case is sufficiently common that=
<br>
is does seem that it ought to Just Work. I don&#39;t see a reason not to go=
<br>
with a pure library solution, though... anyone else?<br>
<br>
&gt; It can be shown that the number of general for statements in existing<=
br>
&gt; practice that have all these properties is very high (in a later<br>
&gt; revision of this proposal we will provide a concrete quantification<br=
>
&gt; of this proportion).<br>
<br>
Uh... yeah. I&#39;d show you examples in real code where I&#39;m using a<br=
>
range-iterator function fairly extensively, except I don&#39;t have<br>
permission to release the code (yet). FWIW, some stats from a couple<br>
projects:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 sloccount=C2=A0 =C2=A0 indexrange uses<br>
=C2=A0 2k=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A020+<br>
=C2=A0 12k=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ~40<br>
=C2=A0 17k=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ~80<br>
<br>
....and I know I have other projects that, if I got the time to port to<br>
indexrange, would likewise use it a lot.<br>
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
--<br>
Matthew<br>
</font></span><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
--<br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br>=
<div class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"rtl"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">how a=
m I supposed to end the twisted road of=C2=A0 your hair in such a dark nigh=
t??<br>unless the candle of your face does shed some light upon my way!!!<b=
r></div></div></div></div>
</div>

<p></p>

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--001a1135392409df1e0529b430e5--

.

On 18/01/2016 22:44, Matthew Woehlke wrote:
> On 2016-01-18 16:35, Andrew Tomazos wrote:
>> The possibility of implementing and using an irange-style library solution
>> `for (int i : irange(N))` came about with Range-Based For Loops.  Assuming
>> the above data, it shows that people chose not to implement and use such a
>> solution, and instead continued using `for (int i = 0; i < N; i++)`.  What
>> other explanation is there, other than they prefer the latter for some
>> reason?
> - They are lazy.
> - The idea didn't occur to them.
> - No such loops have been written since range-based for became an option.
+1
> - They don't understand why it is better.
+many
hesitancy to deprecate old habits especially when it concerns such
prevalent idioms
can greatly inhibit progress.

>> [...] Would you write `for (int i =
>> 0; i < N; ++i)` or would you write `for (int i : N)`?  I think most people
>> would write the latter.
> I *already* write:
>
>    for (auto const i : indexrange(N))
>
> ...i.e. I already *don't* use the old-style loop.
>
me to.

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Quickly glanced through the thread, didn't notice a frequent special case -
would something like the following be too fancy?

for (500)
    doSomething(); // 500 times, index irrelevant


On Saturday, January 16, 2016 at 1:38:19 PM UTC+4, Andrew Tomazos wrote:
>
> Please find attached a rough incomplete 2-page draft entitled "Proposal of
> Index-Based For Loop"
>
> Preliminary thoughts appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> Andrew.
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Quickly glanced through the thread, didn&#39;t notice=
 a frequent special case - would something like the following be too fancy?=
</div><div><br></div><div class=3D"prettyprint" style=3D"background-color: =
rgb(250, 250, 250); border-color: rgb(187, 187, 187); border-style: solid; =
border-width: 1px; word-wrap: break-word;"><code class=3D"prettyprint"><div=
 class=3D"subprettyprint"><span style=3D"color: #008;" class=3D"styled-by-p=
rettify">for</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify=
"> </span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">(</span=
><span style=3D"color: #066;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">500</span><span =
style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">)</span><span style=3D"=
color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 doSomething</s=
pan><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">();</span><sp=
an style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> </span><span style=
=3D"color: #800;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">// 500 times, index irreleva=
nt</span></div></code></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>On Saturday,=
 January 16, 2016 at 1:38:19 PM UTC+4, Andrew Tomazos wrote:<blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #=
ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr">Please find attached a rough=
 incomplete 2-page draft entitled &quot;Proposal of Index-Based For Loop&qu=
ot;<div><br></div><div>Preliminary thoughts appreciated.</div><div><br></di=
v><div>Thanks,</div><div>Andrew.</div><div><br></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div>

<p></p>

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.

Em sexta-feira, 7 de outubro de 2016, =C3=A0s 05:26:56 CEST, Leo Heinsaar e=
screveu:
> Quickly glanced through the thread, didn't notice a frequent special case=
 -
> would something like the following be too fancy?
>=20
> for (500)
>     doSomething(); // 500 times, index irrelevant

I don't think that's frequent enough. In 15 years of doing C++, I can't=20
remember the last time I've needed something like this.

The closest I've had is "run this twice" and something changes in the loop,=
=20
like:

 char *content =3D "foo";
 for (i =3D 0; i < 2; ++i) {
  if (doSomething(content))
   break;
  content =3D nullptr;
 }

And I can't remember when I've last used that. The example above can obviou=
sly=20
be simplified by

 if (!doSomething("foo"))
  doSomething(nullptr);

--=20
Thiago Macieira - thiago (AT) macieira.info - thiago (AT) kde.org
   Software Architect - Intel Open Source Technology Center

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>
> > Quickly glanced through the thread, didn't notice a frequent special
> case -
> > would something like the following be too fancy?
> >
> > for (500)
> >     doSomething(); // 500 times, index irrelevant
>
> I don't think that's frequent enough. In 15 years of doing C++, I can't
> remember the last time I've needed something like this.
>

Come on, it surely is. Say, in some test code which calls a function 500
times and then measures the average.

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margi=
n-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">&gt; Quickly =
glanced through the thread, didn&#39;t notice a frequent special case -
<br>&gt; would something like the following be too fancy?
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; for (500)
<br>&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 doSomething(); // 500 times, index irrelevant
<br>
<br>I don&#39;t think that&#39;s frequent enough. In 15 years of doing C++,=
 I can&#39;t=20
<br>remember the last time I&#39;ve needed something like this.<br></blockq=
uote><div><br></div><div>Come on, it surely is. Say, in some test code whic=
h calls a function 500 times and then measures the average.</div></div>

<p></p>

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#define repeat(N) for (int __i = 0; __i < N; __i++)

<:o)

2016-10-07 10:38 GMT-03:00 Leo Heinsaar <leoheinsaar@gmail.com>:

> > Quickly glanced through the thread, didn't notice a frequent special
>> case -
>> > would something like the following be too fancy?
>> >
>> > for (500)
>> >     doSomething(); // 500 times, index irrelevant
>>
>> I don't think that's frequent enough. In 15 years of doing C++, I can't
>> remember the last time I've needed something like this.
>>
>
> Come on, it surely is. Say, in some test code which calls a function 500
> times and then measures the average.
>
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> isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/a157b052-806e-4a21-
> a246-d87632c48550%40isocpp.org
> <https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/a157b052-806e-4a21-a246-d87632c48550%40isocpp.org?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> .
>



--
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http://codecereal.blogspot.com

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>#define repeat(N) for (int __i =3D 0; __i &lt; N; __i=
++)<br><br></div>&lt;:o)<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote">2016-10-07 10:38 GMT-03:00 Leo Heinsaar <span dir=3D"ltr">=
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:leoheinsaar@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">leoheinsaar@=
gmail.com</a>&gt;</span>:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><span class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;marg=
in-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">&gt; Quickly gla=
nced through the thread, didn&#39;t notice a frequent special case -
<br>&gt; would something like the following be too fancy?
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; for (500)
<br>&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 doSomething(); // 500 times, index irrelevant
<br>
<br>I don&#39;t think that&#39;s frequent enough. In 15 years of doing C++,=
 I can&#39;t=20
<br>remember the last time I&#39;ve needed something like this.<br></blockq=
uote><div><br></div></span><div>Come on, it surely is. Say, in some test co=
de which calls a function 500 times and then measures the average.</div></d=
iv><span class=3D"">

<p></p>

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40isocpp.org?utm_medium=3Demail&amp;utm_source=3Dfooter" target=3D"_blank">=
https://groups.google.com/a/<wbr>isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-<wbr>proposals/a157=
b052-806e-4a21-<wbr>a246-d87632c48550%40isocpp.org</a><wbr>.<br>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div class=3D"gmail_sig=
nature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Daker Fernandes Pinheiro<br><a h=
ref=3D"http://codecereal.blogspot.com" target=3D"_blank">http://codecereal.=
blogspot.com</a><br></div>
</div>

<p></p>

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On Friday, October 7, 2016 at 5:45:04 PM UTC+4, Daker Fernandes Pinheiro
wrote:

#define repeat(N) for (int __i = 0; __i < N; __i++)
>

Sure, I just thought that since we already have one special case,

for (;;)

to mean forever,

for (500)

might complement the index-based for loop and have a similar meaning.

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<div dir=3D"ltr">On Friday, October 7, 2016 at 5:45:04 PM UTC+4, Daker Fern=
andes Pinheiro wrote:<div><br><div><div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-le=
ft: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>#define repeat(N) for (int __i =3D 0; __i &=
lt; N; __i++)</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Sure, I just thou=
ght that since we already have one special case,</div><div>=C2=A0=C2=A0<div=
 class=3D"prettyprint" style=3D"background-color: rgb(250, 250, 250); borde=
r-color: rgb(187, 187, 187); border-style: solid; border-width: 1px; word-w=
rap: break-word;"><code class=3D"prettyprint"><div class=3D"subprettyprint"=
><span style=3D"color: #008;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">for</span><span =
style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> </span><span style=3D"=
color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">(;;)</span></div></code></div><d=
iv><br></div>to mean forever,</div><div>=C2=A0=C2=A0<div class=3D"prettypri=
nt" style=3D"background-color: rgb(250, 250, 250); border-color: rgb(187, 1=
87, 187); border-style: solid; border-width: 1px; word-wrap: break-word;"><=
code class=3D"prettyprint"><div class=3D"subprettyprint"><span style=3D"col=
or: #008;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">for</span><span style=3D"color: #00=
0;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> </span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=
=3D"styled-by-prettify">(</span><span style=3D"color: #066;" class=3D"style=
d-by-prettify">500</span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-pr=
ettify">)</span></div></code></div><br> might complement the index-based fo=
r loop and have a similar meaning.</div></div></div></div></div>

<p></p>

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That's not a special case, that's just a curious example of applying a very
general rule.

On Fri, Oct 7, 2016 at 4:30 PM Leo Heinsaar <leoheinsaar@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Friday, October 7, 2016 at 5:45:04 PM UTC+4, Daker Fernandes Pinheiro
> wrote:
>
> #define repeat(N) for (int __i = 0; __i < N; __i++)
>
>
> Sure, I just thought that since we already have one special case,
>
> for (;;)
>
> to mean forever,
>
> for (500)
>
> might complement the index-based for loop and have a similar meaning.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
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> email to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org.
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> https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/9da42380-9f37-45eb-b609-fa7058c9c005%40isocpp.org
> <https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/9da42380-9f37-45eb-b609-fa7058c9c005%40isocpp.org?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> .
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">That&#39;s not a special case, that&#39;s just a curious e=
xample of applying a very general rule.</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"=
><div dir=3D"ltr">On Fri, Oct 7, 2016 at 4:30 PM Leo Heinsaar &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:leoheinsaar@gmail.com">leoheinsaar@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><=
/div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-le=
ft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_msg">On=
 Friday, October 7, 2016 at 5:45:04 PM UTC+4, Daker Fernandes Pinheiro wrot=
e:</div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_msg"><div class=3D"gmail_msg"><div =
class=3D"gmail_msg"><div class=3D"gmail_msg"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te gmail_msg" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc soli=
d;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_msg"><div class=3D"gmai=
l_msg">#define repeat(N) for (int __i =3D 0; __i &lt; N; __i++)</div></div>=
</blockquote><div class=3D"gmail_msg"><br class=3D"gmail_msg"></div></div><=
/div></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_msg"><div class=3D"gmail_m=
sg"><div class=3D"gmail_msg"><div class=3D"gmail_msg"><div class=3D"gmail_m=
sg">Sure, I just thought that since we already have one special case,</div>=
<div class=3D"gmail_msg">=C2=A0=C2=A0<div class=3D"m_6054572138827343241pre=
ttyprint gmail_msg" style=3D"background-color:rgb(250,250,250);border-color=
:rgb(187,187,187);border-style:solid;border-width:1px;word-wrap:break-word"=
><code class=3D"m_6054572138827343241prettyprint gmail_msg"><div class=3D"m=
_6054572138827343241subprettyprint gmail_msg"><span style=3D"color:#008" cl=
ass=3D"m_6054572138827343241styled-by-prettify gmail_msg">for</span><span s=
tyle=3D"color:#000" class=3D"m_6054572138827343241styled-by-prettify gmail_=
msg"> </span><span style=3D"color:#660" class=3D"m_6054572138827343241style=
d-by-prettify gmail_msg">(;;)</span></div></code></div><div class=3D"gmail_=
msg"><br class=3D"gmail_msg"></div>to mean forever,</div><div class=3D"gmai=
l_msg">=C2=A0=C2=A0<div class=3D"m_6054572138827343241prettyprint gmail_msg=
" style=3D"background-color:rgb(250,250,250);border-color:rgb(187,187,187);=
border-style:solid;border-width:1px;word-wrap:break-word"><code class=3D"m_=
6054572138827343241prettyprint gmail_msg"><div class=3D"m_60545721388273432=
41subprettyprint gmail_msg"><span style=3D"color:#008" class=3D"m_605457213=
8827343241styled-by-prettify gmail_msg">for</span><span style=3D"color:#000=
" class=3D"m_6054572138827343241styled-by-prettify gmail_msg"> </span><span=
 style=3D"color:#660" class=3D"m_6054572138827343241styled-by-prettify gmai=
l_msg">(</span><span style=3D"color:#066" class=3D"m_6054572138827343241sty=
led-by-prettify gmail_msg">500</span><span style=3D"color:#660" class=3D"m_=
6054572138827343241styled-by-prettify gmail_msg">)</span></div></code></div=
><br class=3D"gmail_msg"> might complement the index-based for loop and hav=
e a similar meaning.</div></div></div></div></div>

<p class=3D"gmail_msg"></p>

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ail_msg">
</blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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On Friday, October 7, 2016 at 6:48:35 PM UTC+4, Micha=C5=82 Dominiak wrote:
>
> That's not a special case, that's just a curious example of applying a=20
> very general rule.
>

*"curious"* is hardly a technical term, whereas *"example of applying a=20
very general rule"* is, by definition, a special case.

--=20
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..org/d/msgid/std-proposals/46f26731-d459-4155-ba58-6faaf5877bfd%40isocpp.or=
g.

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<div dir=3D"ltr">On Friday, October 7, 2016 at 6:48:35 PM UTC+4, Micha=C5=
=82 Dominiak wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;mar=
gin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D=
"ltr">That&#39;s not a special case, that&#39;s just a curious example of a=
pplying a very general rule.</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><i>&quot=
;curious&quot;</i> is hardly a technical term, whereas <i>&quot;example of =
applying a very general rule&quot;</i> is, by definition, a special case.</=
div></div>

<p></p>

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%40isocpp.org</a>.<br />

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On Friday, October 7, 2016 at 11:32:07 AM UTC-4, Leo Heinsaar wrote:
>
> On Friday, October 7, 2016 at 6:48:35 PM UTC+4, Micha=C5=82 Dominiak wrot=
e:
>>
>> That's not a special case, that's just a curious example of applying a=
=20
>> very general rule.
>>
>
> *"curious"* is hardly a technical term, whereas *"example of applying a=
=20
> very general rule"* is, by definition, a special case.
>

No it's not.  There is no special case in the standard that allows this.=20
There is nothing that says (for example) "for(;;) is allowed and results in=
=20
an infinite loop".  It's just a result of applying the rule that each of=20
the three parts of the for loop can be left blank.  It's the same rule that=
=20
allows "for( ; i < N; ++i)" or "for(int i =3D 0; i < N; )".

--=20
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g.

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<div dir=3D"ltr">On Friday, October 7, 2016 at 11:32:07 AM UTC-4, Leo Heins=
aar wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left:=
 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr">On =
Friday, October 7, 2016 at 6:48:35 PM UTC+4, Micha=C5=82 Dominiak wrote:<bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-l=
eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">That&#39;s not a spec=
ial case, that&#39;s just a curious example of applying a very general rule=
..</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><i>&quot;curious&quot;</i> is hardl=
y a technical term, whereas <i>&quot;example of applying a very general rul=
e&quot;</i> is, by definition, a special case.</div></div></blockquote><div=
><br></div><div>No it&#39;s not. =C2=A0There is no special case in the stan=
dard that allows this. There is nothing that says (for example) &quot;for(;=
;) is allowed and results in an infinite loop&quot;. =C2=A0It&#39;s just a =
result of applying the rule that each of the three parts of the for loop ca=
n be left blank. =C2=A0It&#39;s the same rule that allows &quot;for( ; i &l=
t; N; ++i)&quot; or &quot;for(int i =3D 0; i &lt; N; )&quot;.</div><div><br=
></div></div>

<p></p>

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On Friday, October 7, 2016 at 9:18:58 PM UTC+4, Greg Marr wrote:
>
> On Friday, October 7, 2016 at 11:32:07 AM UTC-4, Leo Heinsaar wrote:
>>
>> On Friday, October 7, 2016 at 6:48:35 PM UTC+4, Micha=C5=82 Dominiak wro=
te:
>>>
>>> That's not a special case, that's just a curious example of applying a=
=20
>>> very general rule.
>>>
>>
>> *"curious"* is hardly a technical term, whereas *"example of applying a=
=20
>> very general rule"* is, by definition, a special case.
>>
>
> No it's not.  There is no special case in the standard that allows this.=
=20
> There is nothing that says (for example) "for(;;) is allowed and results =
in=20
> an infinite loop".  It's just a result of applying the rule that each of=
=20
> the three parts of the for loop can be left blank.  It's the same rule th=
at=20
> allows "for( ; i < N; ++i)" or "for(int i =3D 0; i < N; )".
>

I didn't mean "special case" in terms of the standard (if indeed it has=20
such terms), but in a mathematical sense, by which "for (;;)" is as special=
=20
case of "for(int i=3D0 ; i < N; ++i)" as it gets (the special case where N =
is=20
infinity).

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<div dir=3D"ltr">On Friday, October 7, 2016 at 9:18:58 PM UTC+4, Greg Marr =
wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8=
ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Frid=
ay, October 7, 2016 at 11:32:07 AM UTC-4, Leo Heinsaar wrote:<blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #cc=
c solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Friday, October 7, 2016 at 6:=
48:35 PM UTC+4, Micha=C5=82 Dominiak wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-le=
ft:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">That&#39;s not a special case, that&#39;s just a c=
urious example of applying a very general rule.</div></blockquote><div><br>=
</div><div><i>&quot;curious&quot;</i> is hardly a technical term, whereas <=
i>&quot;example of applying a very general rule&quot;</i> is, by definition=
, a special case.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>No it&#39;s n=
ot. =C2=A0There is no special case in the standard that allows this. There =
is nothing that says (for example) &quot;for(;;) is allowed and results in =
an infinite loop&quot;. =C2=A0It&#39;s just a result of applying the rule t=
hat each of the three parts of the for loop can be left blank. =C2=A0It&#39=
;s the same rule that allows &quot;for( ; i &lt; N; ++i)&quot; or &quot;for=
(int i =3D 0; i &lt; N; )&quot;.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><di=
v>I didn&#39;t mean &quot;special case&quot; in terms of the standard (if i=
ndeed it has such terms), but in a mathematical sense, by which &quot;for (=
;;)&quot; is as special case of &quot;for(int i=3D0 ; i &lt; N; ++i)&quot; =
as it gets (the special case where N is infinity).</div></div>

<p></p>

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^ That does seem like a special case to me. Since when does an empty
statement (the middle, condition) evaluate to boolean true? Serious
question. Every now and again, I think about this, and it doesn't make
sense to me.

but anyway, for the purposes of 'Do X N times', I am perfectly content to
write for (unsigned i = N; i--;) { X }

(and yes, I am a dastardly and unapologetic user of unsigned variables)

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>^ That does seem like a special case to me. Sinc=
e when does an empty statement (the middle, condition) evaluate to boolean =
true? Serious question. Every now and again, I think about this, and it doe=
sn&#39;t make sense to me.<br><br></div>but anyway, for the purposes of &#3=
9;Do X N times&#39;, I am perfectly content to write <span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:monospace,monospace">for (unsigned i =3D N; i--;) { X }</span><i><span=
 style=3D"font-family:monospace,monospace"><br></span><br></i></div>(and ye=
s, I am a dastardly and unapologetic user of unsigned variables)<br><br></d=
iv>

<p></p>

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>
>
> No it's not.  There is no special case in the standard that allows this.
> There is nothing that says (for example) "for(;;) is allowed and results in
> an infinite loop".  It's just a result of applying the rule that each of
> the three parts of the for loop can be left blank.  It's the same rule that
> allows "for( ; i < N; ++i)" or "for(int i = 0; i < N; )".
>
>
Yes there is. [stmt.for] has explicit wording for empty condition:

Either or both of the condition and the expression can be omitted. A
> missing condition makes the implied

while clause equivalent to while(true)




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<div dir=3D"ltr"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margi=
n-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><div><br></div><div>No it&#39;s not. =C2=A0There is no special case in =
the standard that allows this. There is nothing that says (for example) &qu=
ot;for(;;) is allowed and results in an infinite loop&quot;. =C2=A0It&#39;s=
 just a result of applying the rule that each of the three parts of the for=
 loop can be left blank. =C2=A0It&#39;s the same rule that allows &quot;for=
( ; i &lt; N; ++i)&quot; or &quot;for(int i =3D 0; i &lt; N; )&quot;.</div>=
<div><br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes there is. [stmt.f=
or] has explicit wording for empty condition:</div><div><br></div><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left: 1=
px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">Either or both of the cond=
ition and the expression can be omitted. A missing condition makes the impl=
ied</blockquote><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><=
font face=3D"courier new, monospace">while </font>clause equivalent to <fon=
t face=3D"courier new, monospace">while(true)</font></blockquote><div><br><=
/div><div>=C2=A0</div></div>

<p></p>

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Hi,

#define EAT_auto
#define CAT1(X, Y) X ## Y
#define CAT(X, Y) CAT1(X, Y)

#define                                            \
times_auto(X)                                      \
    for (union                                     \
         {                                         \
             int X * 0 + sizeof(int) * 8;          \
             int j =3D (true ? X, j) =3D 0;            \
         }; i < (false ? X); true ? ++ X)

#define times(X) times_auto(CAT(EAT_, X))

extern void f(int);

void a()
{
    const int n =3D 3;
    times(auto i : n) {
          f(i);
    }
}

So far it only works for const n and auto i. I'm unsure if that's a problem=
=20
at all - if you can modify (ok, destroy) n then `while(n--)` does the trick=
=20
in reverse order [1].
Wish we had constexpr?: operator like if constexpr(), that'd solve a lot of=
=20
things...
If you're worried about the performance, https://godbolt.org/g/ioV3XB
(Btw, I like the idea, I'm just saying that a macro can do this for you.)
Or make it auto-less, that's far easier - you might make type spec an=20
optional parameter.=20

Thanks,
-lorro
[1] Still in TOP10,=20
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1642028/what-is-the-name-of-the-operator=
-in-c

2016. janu=C3=A1r 16., szombat 10:38:19 UTC+1 id=C5=91pontban Andrew Tomazo=
s a=20
k=C3=B6vetkez=C5=91t =C3=ADrta:
>
> Please find attached a rough incomplete 2-page draft entitled "Proposal o=
f=20
> Index-Based For Loop"
>
> Preliminary thoughts appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> Andrew.
>
>

--=20
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi,<br><br><div class=3D"prettyprint" style=3D"background-=
color: rgb(250, 250, 250); border-color: rgb(187, 187, 187); border-style: =
solid; border-width: 1px; word-wrap: break-word;"><code class=3D"prettyprin=
t"><div class=3D"subprettyprint"><span style=3D"color: #800;" class=3D"styl=
ed-by-prettify">#define</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-=
by-prettify"> EAT_auto<br></span><span style=3D"color: #800;" class=3D"styl=
ed-by-prettify">#define</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-=
by-prettify"> CAT1</span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-pr=
ettify">(</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">X=
</span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">,</span><s=
pan style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> Y</span><span styl=
e=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">)</span><span style=3D"colo=
r: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> X </span><span style=3D"color: #800=
;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">## Y</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" cla=
ss=3D"styled-by-prettify"><br></span><span style=3D"color: #800;" class=3D"=
styled-by-prettify">#define</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"sty=
led-by-prettify"> CAT</span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by=
-prettify">(</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify=
">X</span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">,</span=
><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> Y</span><span s=
tyle=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">)</span><span style=3D"c=
olor: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> CAT1</span><span style=3D"color:=
 #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">(</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" c=
lass=3D"styled-by-prettify">X</span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"s=
tyled-by-prettify">,</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-=
prettify"> Y</span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify=
">)</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"><br><br=
></span><span style=3D"color: #800;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">#define</=
span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</span=
><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">\</span><span st=
yle=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"><br>times_auto</span><spa=
n style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">(</span><span style=
=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">X</span><span style=3D"color=
: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">)</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" =
class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0</span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettif=
y">\</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"><br>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 </span><span style=3D"color: #008;" class=3D"styled-by-pretti=
fy">for</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> </=
span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">(</span><spa=
n style=3D"color: #008;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">union</span><span sty=
le=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 </span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"st=
yled-by-prettify">\</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-p=
rettify"><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</span><span style=3D"color:=
 #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">{</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" c=
lass=3D"styled-by-prettify"> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 </span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by=
-prettify">\</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify=
"><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</span><span style=3D=
"color: #008;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">int</span><span style=3D"color:=
 #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> X </span><span style=3D"color: #660;"=
 class=3D"styled-by-prettify">*</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D=
"styled-by-prettify"> </span><span style=3D"color: #066;" class=3D"styled-b=
y-prettify">0</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettif=
y"> </span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">+</spa=
n><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> </span><span s=
tyle=3D"color: #008;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">sizeof</span><span style=
=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">(</span><span style=3D"color=
: #008;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">int</span><span style=3D"color: #660;=
" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">)</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=
=3D"styled-by-prettify"> </span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"style=
d-by-prettify">*</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-pret=
tify"> </span><span style=3D"color: #066;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">8</=
span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">;</span><spa=
n style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-pretti=
fy">\</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"><br>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</span><span style=3D"color=
: #008;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">int</span><span style=3D"color: #000;=
" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> j </span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=
=3D"styled-by-prettify">=3D</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"sty=
led-by-prettify"> </span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-pr=
ettify">(</span><span style=3D"color: #008;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">t=
rue</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> </span=
><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">?</span><span st=
yle=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> X</span><span style=3D"c=
olor: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">,</span><span style=3D"color: #00=
0;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> j</span><span style=3D"color: #660;" clas=
s=3D"styled-by-prettify">)</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styl=
ed-by-prettify"> </span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-pre=
ttify">=3D</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">=
 </span><span style=3D"color: #066;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">0</span><=
span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">;</span><span styl=
e=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-pre=
ttify">\</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"><b=
r>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</span><span style=3D"color: #660;" cla=
ss=3D"styled-by-prettify">};</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"st=
yled-by-prettify"> i </span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by=
-prettify">&lt;</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prett=
ify"> </span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">(</s=
pan><span style=3D"color: #008;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">false</span><=
span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> </span><span styl=
e=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">?</span><span style=3D"colo=
r: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> X</span><span style=3D"color: #660;=
" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">);</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=
=3D"styled-by-prettify"> </span><span style=3D"color: #008;" class=3D"style=
d-by-prettify">true</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-p=
rettify"> </span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">=
?</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> </span><=
span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">++</span><span sty=
le=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> X</span><span style=3D"co=
lor: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">)</span><span style=3D"color: #000=
;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"><br><br></span><span style=3D"color: #800;"=
 class=3D"styled-by-prettify">#define</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" cl=
ass=3D"styled-by-prettify"> times</span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=
=3D"styled-by-prettify">(</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"style=
d-by-prettify">X</span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-pret=
tify">)</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> ti=
mes_auto</span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">(<=
/span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">CAT</span><=
span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">(</span><span styl=
e=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">EAT_</span><span style=3D"c=
olor: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">,</span><span style=3D"color: #00=
0;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> X</span><span style=3D"color: #660;" clas=
s=3D"styled-by-prettify">))</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"sty=
led-by-prettify"><br><br></span><span style=3D"color: #008;" class=3D"style=
d-by-prettify">extern</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by=
-prettify"> </span><span style=3D"color: #008;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify=
">void</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> f</=
span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">(</span><spa=
n style=3D"color: #008;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">int</span><span style=
=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">);</span><span style=3D"colo=
r: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"><br><br></span><span style=3D"color:=
 #008;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">void</span><span style=3D"color: #000;=
" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> a</span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=
=3D"styled-by-prettify">()</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styl=
ed-by-prettify"><br></span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-=
prettify">{</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"=
><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 </span><span style=3D"color: #008;" class=3D"styled-by-p=
rettify">const</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-pretti=
fy"> </span><span style=3D"color: #008;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">int</=
span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> n </span><s=
pan style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">=3D</span><span sty=
le=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> </span><span style=3D"col=
or: #066;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">3</span><span style=3D"color: #660;=
" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">;</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=
=3D"styled-by-prettify"><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 times</span><span style=3D"color:=
 #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">(</span><span style=3D"color: #008;" c=
lass=3D"styled-by-prettify">auto</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=
=3D"styled-by-prettify"> i </span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"sty=
led-by-prettify">:</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-pr=
ettify"> n</span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">=
)</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> </span><=
span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">{</span><span styl=
e=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 f</span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prett=
ify">(</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">i</s=
pan><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">);</span><spa=
n style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 </s=
pan><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">}</span><span=
 style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"><br></span><span style=
=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">}</span></div></code></div><=
br>So far it only works for const n and auto i. I&#39;m unsure if that&#39;=
s a problem at all - if you can modify (ok, destroy) n then `while(n--)` do=
es the trick in reverse order [1].<br>Wish we had constexpr?: operator like=
 if constexpr(), that&#39;d solve a lot of things...<br>If you&#39;re worri=
ed about the performance, https://godbolt.org/g/ioV3XB<br>(Btw, I like the =
idea, I&#39;m just saying that a macro can do this for you.)<br>Or make it =
auto-less, that&#39;s far easier - you might make type spec an optional par=
ameter. <br><br>Thanks,<br>-lorro<br>[1] Still in TOP10, http://stackoverfl=
ow.com/questions/1642028/what-is-the-name-of-the-operator-in-c<br><br>2016.=
 janu=C3=A1r 16., szombat 10:38:19 UTC+1 id=C5=91pontban Andrew Tomazos a k=
=C3=B6vetkez=C5=91t =C3=ADrta:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">=
<div dir=3D"ltr">Please find attached a rough incomplete 2-page draft entit=
led &quot;Proposal of Index-Based For Loop&quot;<div><br></div><div>Prelimi=
nary thoughts appreciated.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Andre=
w.</div><div><br></div></div>
</blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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>
> 2016. janu=C3=A1r 16., szombat 10:38:19 UTC+1 id=C5=91pontban Andrew Toma=
zos a
> k=C3=B6vetkez=C5=91t =C3=ADrta:
>>
>> Please find attached a rough incomplete 2-page draft entitled "Proposal
>> of Index-Based For Loop"
>>
>> Preliminary thoughts appreciated.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Andrew.
>>
>> Extremely old (and seemingly once again popular) thread...

So what's so terrible about "for(auto i : range(0, 3))" or "for(std::size_t
i =3D 0; i < 3; ++i)"?

Ranged for dominates my code by far so (at least in my case) that really
was the most general case of using for while on the other hand "for(auto i
: 3)" and "for(3)" just seems like
yet-another-cryptic-and-rare-case-that-I-wll-have-to-remember...

Not dumping every trivial feature that can be expressed by a library into
the language (unlike quite allot of other languages) is IMHO one of the
benefits of C++ and not it's drawback so pretty please don't try to change
it into one of those languages.

There are probably some other more beneficial features that people can work
on than these low hanging fruits for I-added-to-the-c++-standard bragging
rights only.

Regards,
Domen

--=20
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left=
:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">2016. janu=
=C3=A1r 16., szombat 10:38:19 UTC+1 id=C5=91pontban Andrew Tomazos a k=C3=
=B6vetkez=C5=91t =C3=ADrta:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex=
"><div dir=3D"ltr">Please find attached a rough incomplete 2-page draft ent=
itled &quot;Proposal of Index-Based For Loop&quot;<div><br></div><div>Preli=
minary thoughts appreciated.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>And=
rew.</div><div><br></div></div><span class=3D"gmail-HOEnZb"><font color=3D"=
#888888">
</font></span></blockquote></div><span class=3D"gmail-HOEnZb"><font color=
=3D"#888888">

<p></p>
</font></span></blockquote></div>Extremely old (and seemingly once again po=
pular) thread...<br><br>So what&#39;s so terrible about &quot;for(auto i : =
range(0, 3))&quot; or &quot;for(std::size_t i =3D 0; i &lt; 3; ++i)&quot;?<=
br><br>Ranged for dominates my code by far so (at least in my case) that re=
ally was the most general case of using for while on the other hand &quot;f=
or(auto i : 3)&quot; and &quot;for(3)&quot; just seems like yet-another-cry=
ptic-and-rare-case-that-I-wll-have-to-remember...<br></div><div class=3D"gm=
ail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Not dumping every trivial f=
eature that can be expressed by a library into the language (unlike quite a=
llot of other languages) is IMHO one of the benefits of C++ and not it&#39;=
s drawback so pretty please don&#39;t try to change it into one of those la=
nguages.<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_=
extra">There are probably some other more beneficial features that people c=
an work on than these low hanging fruits for I-added-to-the-c++-standard br=
agging rights only.<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_extra">Regards,<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Domen<br></d=
iv><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div></div>

<p></p>

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fmS%3DC1_V6%2BAhTbPA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfoote=
r">https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/CAKgx6B%2BS=
A4E6ibfA1t2uWB2zYr3jGF8-NTfmS%3DC1_V6%2BAhTbPA%40mail.gmail.com</a>.<br />

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On Fri, Oct 7, 2016 at 10:09 PM, <szollosi.lorand@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi,
>
> #define EAT_auto
> #define CAT1(X, Y) X ## Y
> #define CAT(X, Y) CAT1(X, Y)
>
> #define                                            \
> times_auto(X)                                      \
>     for (union                                     \
>          {                                         \
>              int X * 0 + sizeof(int) * 8;          \
>              int j = (true ? X, j) = 0;            \
>          }; i < (false ? X); true ? ++ X)
>
> #define times(X) times_auto(CAT(EAT_, X))
>
> extern void f(int);
>
> void a()
> {
>     const int n = 3;
>     times(auto i : n) {
>           f(i);
>     }
> }
>
>
Can you explain why on Earth this is preferable to a normal for loop in any
way? Does anyone really think saving a few characters to obfuscate a basic
for loop is worth all that boilerplate? If so, I worry.

And also, what that union is doing? I don't feel like preprocessing this at
the moment, to figure out whether there's UB going on there due to
switching between inactive union members.

But again, even if there isn't UB, I can't see any reason to prefer this.
Help me understand.

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--089e01228c12825c9e053e4df2bb
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On F=
ri, Oct 7, 2016 at 10:09 PM,  <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a target=3D"_blank" hr=
ef=3D"mailto:szollosi.lorand@gmail.com">szollosi.lorand@gmail.com</a>&gt;</=
span> wrote:<br><br><blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-le=
ft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote"><div =
dir=3D"ltr">Hi,<br><br><div style=3D"background-color:rgb(250,250,250);bord=
er-color:rgb(187,187,187);border-style:solid;border-width:1px;word-wrap:bre=
ak-word" class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962prettyprint"><code class=3D"g=
mail-m_-5435845359693796962prettyprint"><div class=3D"gmail-m_-543584535969=
3796962subprettyprint"><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by=
-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(136,0,0)">#define</span><span class=3D"gmail-=
m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> EAT_a=
uto<br></span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify=
" style=3D"color:rgb(136,0,0)">#define</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-543584=
5359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> CAT1</span><sp=
an class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:=
rgb(102,102,0)">(</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-b=
y-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">X</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435=
845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">,</span><=
span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"colo=
r:rgb(0,0,0)"> Y</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by=
-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">)</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5=
435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> X </span>=
<span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"col=
or:rgb(136,0,0)">## Y</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styl=
ed-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></span><span class=3D"gmail-=
m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(136,0,0)">#def=
ine</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" st=
yle=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> CAT</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-543584535969379=
6962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">(</span><span class=
=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,=
0)">X</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" =
style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">,</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-543584535969=
3796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> Y</span><span class=
=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(102,=
102,0)">)</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-pretti=
fy" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> CAT1</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-54358453=
59693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">(</span><span=
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b(0,0,0)">X</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-pret=
tify" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">,</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-543584=
5359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> Y</span><span =
class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb=
(102,102,0)">)</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-p=
rettify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br><br></span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-=
5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(136,0,0)">#define=
</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-54358453596937969=
62styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">\</span><span class=3D=
"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"=
><br>times_auto</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-=
prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">(</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-54=
35845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">X</span><sp=
an class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:=
rgb(102,102,0)">)</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-b=
y-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962s=
tyled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">\</span><span class=3D"gm=
ail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><b=
r>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 </span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by=
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435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> </span><s=
pan class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color=
:rgb(102,102,0)">(</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-=
by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,136)">union</span><span class=3D"gmail-=
m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 </span><span class=3D"gmai=
l-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">=
\</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</span><span c=
lass=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(=
102,102,0)">{</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-pr=
ettify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 </span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796=
962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">\</span><span class=
=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,=
0)"><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</span><span class=
=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,=
136)">int</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-pretti=
fy" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> X </span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359=
693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">*</span><span c=
lass=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(=
0,0,0)"> </span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-pretti=
fy" style=3D"color:rgb(0,102,102)">0</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-54358453=
59693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> </span><span cla=
ss=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(10=
2,102,0)">+</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-pret=
tify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> </span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359=
693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,136)">sizeof</span><spa=
n class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:r=
gb(102,102,0)">(</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by=
-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,136)">int</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5=
435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">)</spa=
n><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"c=
olor:rgb(0,0,0)"> </span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-=
by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">*</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_=
-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> </span>=
<span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"col=
or:rgb(0,102,102)">8</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962style=
d-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">;</span><span class=3D"gmail-=
m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> =C2=
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796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">\</span><span clas=
s=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0=
,0)"><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</span><span class=
=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,=
136)">int</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-pretti=
fy" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> j </span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359=
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b(0,0,0)"> </span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-pret=
tify" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">(</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-543584=
5359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,136)">true</span><s=
pan class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color=
:rgb(0,0,0)"> </span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-p=
rettify" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">?</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-543=
5845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> X</span><sp=
an class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:=
rgb(102,102,0)">,</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-b=
y-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> j</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-543=
5845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">)</span>=
<span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"col=
or:rgb(0,0,0)"> </span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by=
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<span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"col=
or:rgb(0,102,102)">0</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962style=
d-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">;</span><span class=3D"gmail-=
m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> =C2=
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5359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">\</span><sp=
an class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:=
rgb(0,0,0)"><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</span><span class=3D"gma=
il-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)"=
>};</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" st=
yle=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> i </span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796=
962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">&lt;</span><span clas=
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93796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,136)">false</span><span =
class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb=
(0,0,0)"> </span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prett=
ify" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">?</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845=
359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> X</span><span c=
lass=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(=
102,102,0)">);</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-p=
rettify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> </span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845=
359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,136)">true</span><sp=
an class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:=
rgb(0,0,0)"> </span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-pr=
ettify" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">?</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435=
845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> </span><span=
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b(102,102,0)">++</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by=
-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> X</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435=
845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">)</span><=
span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"colo=
r:rgb(0,0,0)"><br><br></span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962sty=
led-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(136,0,0)">#define</span><span class=3D"=
gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">=
 times</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify"=
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93796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">X</span><span class=
=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(102,=
102,0)">)</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-pretti=
fy" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> times_auto</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-54=
35845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">(</span=
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lor:rgb(0,0,0)">CAT</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled=
-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">(</span><span class=3D"gmail-m=
_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">EAT_</s=
pan><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D=
"color:rgb(102,102,0)">,</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962s=
tyled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> X</span><span class=3D"gmail=
-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">)=
)</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br><br></span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693=
796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,136)">extern</span><span c=
lass=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(=
0,0,0)"> </span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-pretti=
fy" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,136)">void</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845=
359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> f</span><span c=
lass=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(=
102,102,0)">(</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-pr=
ettify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,136)">int</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435=
845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">);</span>=
<span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"col=
or:rgb(0,0,0)"><br><br></span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962st=
yled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,136)">void</span><span class=3D"gm=
ail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> a=
</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=
=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">()</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796=
962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></span><span class=3D=
"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102=
,0)">{</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify"=
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_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,136)">const=
</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> </span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962st=
yled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,136)">int</span><span class=3D"gma=
il-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> n =
</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=
=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">=3D</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-543584535969379=
6962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> </span><span class=3D"g=
mail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,102,102=
)">3</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" s=
tyle=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">;</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693=
796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 time=
s</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">(</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796=
962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,136)">auto</span><span class=
=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,=
0)"> i </span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify=
" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">:</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359=
693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> n</span><span clas=
s=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(102=
,102,0)">)</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prett=
ify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> </span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-54358453596=
93796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">{</span><span cl=
ass=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(0=
,0,0)"><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 f</span><span class=3D"gmail-=
m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">(<=
/span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">i</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962st=
yled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">);</span><span class=3D"gm=
ail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><b=
r>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 </span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by=
-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">}</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5=
435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></span=
><span class=3D"gmail-m_-5435845359693796962styled-by-prettify" style=3D"co=
lor:rgb(102,102,0)">}</span></div></code></div><br></div></blockquote><div>=
=C2=A0</div><div>Can you explain why on Earth this is preferable to a norma=
l for loop in any way? Does anyone really think saving a few characters to =
obfuscate a basic for loop is worth all that boilerplate? If so, I worry.<b=
r><br>And also, what that union is doing? I don&#39;t feel like preprocessi=
ng this at the moment, to figure out whether there&#39;s UB going on there =
due to switching between inactive union members.<br><br>But again, even if =
there isn&#39;t UB, I can&#39;t see any reason to prefer this. Help me unde=
rstand.<br><br></div></div></div></div>

<p></p>

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On Fri, Oct 7, 2016 at 2:09 PM, <szollosi.lorand@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> #define EAT_auto
> #define CAT1(X, Y) X ## Y
> #define CAT(X, Y) CAT1(X, Y)
>
> #define                                            \
> times_auto(X)                                      \
>     for (union                                     \
>          {                                         \
>              int X * 0 + sizeof(int) * 8;          \
>              int j =3D (true ? X, j) =3D 0;            \
>          }; i < (false ? X); true ? ++ X)
>
> #define times(X) times_auto(CAT(EAT_, X))
>
> extern void f(int);
>
> void a()
> {
>     const int n =3D 3;
>     times(auto i : n) {
>           f(i);
>     }
> }
>

Hah, this seems like a fun game. My entry: https://godbolt.org/g/yolwFc

But really, why bother when we can just use

  for (auto i : integral_range(n))

?

So far it only works for const n and auto i. I'm unsure if that's a problem
> at all - if you can modify (ok, destroy) n then `while(n--)` does the tri=
ck
> in reverse order [1].
> Wish we had constexpr?: operator like if constexpr(), that'd solve a lot
> of things...
> If you're worried about the performance, https://godbolt.org/g/ioV3XB
> (Btw, I like the idea, I'm just saying that a macro can do this for you.)
> Or make it auto-less, that's far easier - you might make type spec an
> optional parameter.
>
> Thanks,
> -lorro
> [1] Still in TOP10, http://stackoverflow.com/
> questions/1642028/what-is-the-name-of-the-operator-in-c
>
> 2016. janu=C3=A1r 16., szombat 10:38:19 UTC+1 id=C5=91pontban Andrew Toma=
zos a
> k=C3=B6vetkez=C5=91t =C3=ADrta:
>>
>> Please find attached a rough incomplete 2-page draft entitled "Proposal
>> of Index-Based For Loop"
>>
>> Preliminary thoughts appreciated.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Andrew.
>>
>> --
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> acc8-657a53626932%40isocpp.org
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> .
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On F=
ri, Oct 7, 2016 at 2:09 PM,  <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:szollo=
si.lorand@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">szollosi.lorand@gmail.com</a>&gt;</s=
pan> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr">Hi,<br><br><div class=3D"gmail-m_749761175140180926prettyprint" st=
yle=3D"background-color:rgb(250,250,250);border-color:rgb(187,187,187);bord=
er-style:solid;border-width:1px;word-wrap:break-word"><code class=3D"gmail-=
m_749761175140180926prettyprint"><div class=3D"gmail-m_749761175140180926su=
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le=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)" class=3D"gmail-m_749761175140180926styled-by-pretti=
fy"> times</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)" class=3D"gmail-m_7497=
61175140180926styled-by-prettify">(</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)" =
class=3D"gmail-m_749761175140180926styled-by-prettify">X</span><span style=
=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)" class=3D"gmail-m_749761175140180926styled-by-pret=
tify">)</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)" class=3D"gmail-m_74976117514=
0180926styled-by-prettify"> times_auto</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(102,1=
02,0)" class=3D"gmail-m_749761175140180926styled-by-prettify">(</span><span=
 style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)" class=3D"gmail-m_749761175140180926styled-by-pr=
ettify">CAT</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)" class=3D"gmail-m_749=
761175140180926styled-by-prettify">(</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"=
 class=3D"gmail-m_749761175140180926styled-by-prettify">EAT_</span><span st=
yle=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)" class=3D"gmail-m_749761175140180926styled-by-p=
rettify">,</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)" class=3D"gmail-m_74976117=
5140180926styled-by-prettify"> X</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)"=
 class=3D"gmail-m_749761175140180926styled-by-prettify">))</span><span styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)" class=3D"gmail-m_749761175140180926styled-by-prettif=
y"><br><br></span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,136)" class=3D"gmail-m_74976=
1175140180926styled-by-prettify">extern</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,=
0)" class=3D"gmail-m_749761175140180926styled-by-prettify"> </span><span st=
yle=3D"color:rgb(0,0,136)" class=3D"gmail-m_749761175140180926styled-by-pre=
ttify">void</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)" class=3D"gmail-m_7497611=
75140180926styled-by-prettify"> f</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)=
" class=3D"gmail-m_749761175140180926styled-by-prettify">(</span><span styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(0,0,136)" class=3D"gmail-m_749761175140180926styled-by-prett=
ify">int</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)" class=3D"gmail-m_749761=
175140180926styled-by-prettify">);</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)" c=
lass=3D"gmail-m_749761175140180926styled-by-prettify"><br><br></span><span =
style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,136)" class=3D"gmail-m_749761175140180926styled-by-p=
rettify">void</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)" class=3D"gmail-m_74976=
1175140180926styled-by-prettify"> a</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,=
0)" class=3D"gmail-m_749761175140180926styled-by-prettify">()</span><span s=
tyle=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)" class=3D"gmail-m_749761175140180926styled-by-pret=
tify"><br></span><span style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)" class=3D"gmail-m_7497=
61175140180926styled-by-prettify">{</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)" =
class=3D"gmail-m_749761175140180926styled-by-prettify"><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 </=
span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,136)" class=3D"gmail-m_749761175140180926=
styled-by-prettify">const</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)" class=3D"g=
mail-m_749761175140180926styled-by-prettify"> </span><span style=3D"color:r=
gb(0,0,136)" class=3D"gmail-m_749761175140180926styled-by-prettify">int</sp=
an><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)" class=3D"gmail-m_749761175140180926styl=
ed-by-prettify"> n </span><span style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)" class=3D"gma=
il-m_749761175140180926styled-by-prettify">=3D</span><span style=3D"color:r=
gb(0,0,0)" class=3D"gmail-m_749761175140180926styled-by-prettify"> </span><=
span style=3D"color:rgb(0,102,102)" class=3D"gmail-m_749761175140180926styl=
ed-by-prettify">3</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)" class=3D"gmail=
-m_749761175140180926styled-by-prettify">;</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0=
,0,0)" class=3D"gmail-m_749761175140180926styled-by-prettify"><br>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 times</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)" class=3D"gmail-m_74=
9761175140180926styled-by-prettify">(</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,13=
6)" class=3D"gmail-m_749761175140180926styled-by-prettify">auto</span><span=
 style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)" class=3D"gmail-m_749761175140180926styled-by-pr=
ettify"> i </span><span style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)" class=3D"gmail-m_749=
761175140180926styled-by-prettify">:</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"=
 class=3D"gmail-m_749761175140180926styled-by-prettify"> n</span><span styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)" class=3D"gmail-m_749761175140180926styled-by-pre=
ttify">)</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)" class=3D"gmail-m_7497611751=
40180926styled-by-prettify"> </span><span style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)" cl=
ass=3D"gmail-m_749761175140180926styled-by-prettify">{</span><span style=3D=
"color:rgb(0,0,0)" class=3D"gmail-m_749761175140180926styled-by-prettify"><=
br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 f</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(102,=
102,0)" class=3D"gmail-m_749761175140180926styled-by-prettify">(</span><spa=
n style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)" class=3D"gmail-m_749761175140180926styled-by-p=
rettify">i</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)" class=3D"gmail-m_7497=
61175140180926styled-by-prettify">);</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"=
 class=3D"gmail-m_749761175140180926styled-by-prettify"><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 <=
/span><span style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)" class=3D"gmail-m_749761175140180=
926styled-by-prettify">}</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)" class=3D"gm=
ail-m_749761175140180926styled-by-prettify"><br></span><span style=3D"color=
:rgb(102,102,0)" class=3D"gmail-m_749761175140180926styled-by-prettify">}</=
span></div></code></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Hah, this se=
ems like a fun game. My entry: <a href=3D"https://godbolt.org/g/yolwFc">htt=
ps://godbolt.org/g/yolwFc</a></div><div><br></div><div>But really, why both=
er when we can just use</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 for (auto i : integ=
ral_range(n))</div><div><br></div><div>?</div><div><br></div><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid=
 rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">So far it only works f=
or const n and auto i. I&#39;m unsure if that&#39;s a problem at all - if y=
ou can modify (ok, destroy) n then `while(n--)` does the trick in reverse o=
rder [1].<br>Wish we had constexpr?: operator like if constexpr(), that&#39=
;d solve a lot of things...<br>If you&#39;re worried about the performance,=
 <a href=3D"https://godbolt.org/g/ioV3XB" target=3D"_blank">https://godbolt=
..org/g/ioV3XB</a><br>(Btw, I like the idea, I&#39;m just saying that a macr=
o can do this for you.)<br>Or make it auto-less, that&#39;s far easier - yo=
u might make type spec an optional parameter. <br><br>Thanks,<br>-lorro<br>=
[1] Still in TOP10, <a href=3D"http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1642028/w=
hat-is-the-name-of-the-operator-in-c" target=3D"_blank">http://stackoverflo=
w.com/<wbr>questions/1642028/what-is-the-<wbr>name-of-the-operator-in-c</a>=
<span class=3D"gmail-"><br><br>2016. janu=C3=A1r 16., szombat 10:38:19 UTC+=
1 id=C5=91pontban Andrew Tomazos a k=C3=B6vetkez=C5=91t =C3=ADrta:<blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Please find attac=
hed a rough incomplete 2-page draft entitled &quot;Proposal of Index-Based =
For Loop&quot;<div><br></div><div>Preliminary thoughts appreciated.</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Andrew.</div><div><br></div></div>
</blockquote></span></div>

<p></p>

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</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

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--001a11425aa40c8a7d053e4e4dc3--

.

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 boundary="----=_Part_26_290245484.1475916031956"

------=_Part_26_290245484.1475916031956
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

UB: to my knowledge it's not UB, as the underlying types are int, i.e.,=20
same-prefix POD. Just in case you're very worried, I can also do this under=
=20
strict aliasing rules for int using `for(union { ...; bool j =3D true}; j;=
=20
j=3Dfalse) for(i =3D 0;...;...)` loop, same result applies.

Richard: This is also good :).=20

Why: On one hand, it's a very good puzzle to see if the language already=20
allows for something being asked, one way or another. OTOH, there are=20
fields where DSLs are important. We here are mostly used to programmer's=20
notation, thus we'd simply write the old way or with integral_range. When=
=20
communicating to, let alone writing code for people who are used to other=
=20
notations, however, you might not accept our way of doing things, they=20
except mathematical / phys / eco / eng. / etc. notation. Now, either you=20
end up writing an interpreter/compiler, or you allow EDSLs in the language.=
=20
So far C++ has been a very good language for EDSLs, despite the common=20
claims not to do so. Note that the 'field' answer is sometimes different=20
than the 'language' answer: an example question that shows up all the time,=
=20
whether we allow new user-defined infix operators.
A very good example of how important the syntax is is the range for itself:=
=20
a *language construct* that 1. calls *conventionally-named* functions 2.=20
*defines* ASD variables other than the user explicitly asked, thus it's=20
incompatible with coroutines, 3. has *state that's not inspectable*. Yet we=
=20
love it, because we've seen it in other languages and wanted it for C++; we=
=20
wanted the benefits.
With all that said, I'd prefer solutions that allow user to write their=20
EDSL rather than bringing together all EDSLs in C++, hence I said=20
constexpr?:.

Thanks,
-lorro

2016. okt=C3=B3ber 8., szombat 0:55:06 UTC+2 id=C5=91pontban Richard Smith =
a=20
k=C3=B6vetkez=C5=91t =C3=ADrta:
>
> On Fri, Oct 7, 2016 at 2:09 PM, <szollos...@gmail.com <javascript:>>=20
> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> #define EAT_auto
>> #define CAT1(X, Y) X ## Y
>> #define CAT(X, Y) CAT1(X, Y)
>>
>> #define                                            \
>> times_auto(X)                                      \
>>     for (union                                     \
>>          {                                         \
>>              int X * 0 + sizeof(int) * 8;          \
>>              int j =3D (true ? X, j) =3D 0;            \
>>          }; i < (false ? X); true ? ++ X)
>>
>> #define times(X) times_auto(CAT(EAT_, X))
>>
>> extern void f(int);
>>
>> void a()
>> {
>>     const int n =3D 3;
>>     times(auto i : n) {
>>           f(i);
>>     }
>> }
>>
>
> Hah, this seems like a fun game. My entry: https://godbolt.org/g/yolwFc
>
> But really, why bother when we can just use
>
>   for (auto i : integral_range(n))
>
> ?
>
> So far it only works for const n and auto i. I'm unsure if that's a=20
>> problem at all - if you can modify (ok, destroy) n then `while(n--)` doe=
s=20
>> the trick in reverse order [1].
>> Wish we had constexpr?: operator like if constexpr(), that'd solve a lot=
=20
>> of things...
>> If you're worried about the performance, https://godbolt.org/g/ioV3XB
>> (Btw, I like the idea, I'm just saying that a macro can do this for you.=
)
>> Or make it auto-less, that's far easier - you might make type spec an=20
>> optional parameter.=20
>>
>> Thanks,
>> -lorro
>> [1] Still in TOP10,=20
>> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1642028/what-is-the-name-of-the-opera=
tor-in-c
>>
>> 2016. janu=C3=A1r 16., szombat 10:38:19 UTC+1 id=C5=91pontban Andrew Tom=
azos a=20
>> k=C3=B6vetkez=C5=91t =C3=ADrta:
>>>
>>> Please find attached a rough incomplete 2-page draft entitled "Proposal=
=20
>>> of Index-Based For Loop"
>>>
>>> Preliminary thoughts appreciated.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Andrew.
>>>
>>> --=20
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group=
s=20
>> "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a=
n=20
>> email to std-proposal...@isocpp.org <javascript:>.
>> To post to this group, send email to std-pr...@isocpp.org <javascript:>.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit=20
>> https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/05f82d7c-41=
32-42d1-acc8-657a53626932%40isocpp.org=20
>> <https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/05f82d7c-4=
132-42d1-acc8-657a53626932%40isocpp.org?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfoo=
ter>
>> .
>>
>
>

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org.
To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp=
..org/d/msgid/std-proposals/cb4021f1-7a4c-454c-905a-81c53fc9ad2a%40isocpp.or=
g.

------=_Part_26_290245484.1475916031956
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi,<br><br>UB: to my knowledge it&#39;s not UB, as the und=
erlying types are int, i.e., same-prefix POD. Just in case you&#39;re very =
worried, I can also do this under strict aliasing rules for int using `for(=
union { ...; bool j =3D true}; j; j=3Dfalse) for(i =3D 0;...;...)` loop, sa=
me result applies.<br><br>Richard: This is also good :). <br><br>Why: On on=
e hand, it&#39;s a very good puzzle to see if the language already allows f=
or something being asked, one way or another. OTOH, there are fields where =
DSLs are important. We here are mostly used to programmer&#39;s notation, t=
hus we&#39;d simply write the old way or with integral_range. When communic=
ating to, let alone writing code for people who are used to other notations=
, however, you might not accept our way of doing things, they except mathem=
atical / phys / eco / eng. / etc. notation. Now, either you end up writing =
an interpreter/compiler, or you allow EDSLs in the language. So far C++ has=
 been a very good language for EDSLs, despite the common claims not to do s=
o. Note that the &#39;field&#39; answer is sometimes different than the &#3=
9;language&#39; answer: an example question that shows up all the time, whe=
ther we allow new user-defined infix operators.<br>A very good example of h=
ow important the syntax is is the range for itself: a <i>language construct=
</i> that<i> </i>1. calls <i>conventionally-named</i> functions 2. <i>defin=
es</i> ASD variables other than the user explicitly asked, thus it&#39;s in=
compatible with coroutines, 3. has <i>state that&#39;s not inspectable</i>.=
 Yet we love it, because we&#39;ve seen it in other languages and wanted it=
 for C++; we wanted the benefits.<br>With all that said, I&#39;d prefer sol=
utions that allow user to write their EDSL rather than bringing together al=
l EDSLs in C++, hence I said constexpr?:.<br><br>Thanks,<br>-lorro<br><br>2=
016. okt=C3=B3ber 8., szombat 0:55:06 UTC+2 id=C5=91pontban Richard Smith a=
 k=C3=B6vetkez=C5=91t =C3=ADrta:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;=
"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Oct 7, 2016 at 2=
:09 PM,  <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blank" gd=
f-obfuscated-mailto=3D"ydISomkyCAAJ" rel=3D"nofollow" onmousedown=3D"this.h=
ref=3D&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;javas=
cript:&#39;;return true;">szollos...@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-lef=
t:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi,<br><br>=
<div style=3D"background-color:rgb(250,250,250);border-color:rgb(187,187,18=
7);border-style:solid;border-width:1px;word-wrap:break-word"><code><div><sp=
an style=3D"color:rgb(136,0,0)">#define</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,=
0)"> EAT_auto<br></span><span style=3D"color:rgb(136,0,0)">#define</span><s=
pan style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> CAT1</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(102,102=
,0)">(</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">X</span><span style=3D"color:=
rgb(102,102,0)">,</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> Y</span><span sty=
le=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">)</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> X </s=
pan><span style=3D"color:rgb(136,0,0)">## Y</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(=
0,0,0)"><br></span><span style=3D"color:rgb(136,0,0)">#define</span><span s=
tyle=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> CAT</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">(=
</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">X</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(10=
2,102,0)">,</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> Y</span><span style=3D"=
color:rgb(102,102,0)">)</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> CAT1</span>=
<span style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">(</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0=
)">X</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">,</span><span style=3D"colo=
r:rgb(0,0,0)"> Y</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">)</span><span s=
tyle=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br><br></span><span style=3D"color:rgb(136,0,0)"=
>#define</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</span><span style=
=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">\</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br>time=
s_auto</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">(</span><span style=3D"co=
lor:rgb(0,0,0)">X</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">)</span><span =
style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">\</span><span styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 </span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,=
0,136)">for</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> </span><span style=3D"c=
olor:rgb(102,102,0)">(</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,136)">union</span=
><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 </span><span style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">\</span><span sty=
le=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</span><span =
style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">{</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 </span><=
span style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">\</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)=
"><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</span><span style=3D=
"color:rgb(0,0,136)">int</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> X </span><=
span style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">*</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)=
"> </span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,102,102)">0</span><span style=3D"color=
:rgb(0,0,0)"> </span><span style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">+</span><span sty=
le=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> </span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,136)">sizeof</=
span><span style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">(</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(=
0,0,136)">int</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">)</span><span styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> </span><span style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">*</span=
><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> </span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,102,10=
2)">8</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">;</span><span style=3D"col=
or:rgb(0,0,0)"> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</span><span style=3D"col=
or:rgb(102,102,0)">\</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,1=
36)">int</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> j </span><span style=3D"co=
lor:rgb(102,102,0)">=3D</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> </span><spa=
n style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">(</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,136)"=
>true</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> </span><span style=3D"color:r=
gb(102,102,0)">?</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> X</span><span styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">,</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> j</spa=
n><span style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">)</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0=
,0)"> </span><span style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">=3D</span><span style=3D"=
color:rgb(0,0,0)"> </span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,102,102)">0</span><spa=
n style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">;</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(10=
2,102,0)">\</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">};</span><span st=
yle=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> i </span><span style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">&lt=
;</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> </span><span style=3D"color:rgb(1=
02,102,0)">(</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,136)">false</span><span sty=
le=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> </span><span style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">?</spa=
n><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> X</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(102,10=
2,0)">);</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> </span><span style=3D"colo=
r:rgb(0,0,136)">true</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> </span><span s=
tyle=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">?</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> </s=
pan><span style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">++</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(=
0,0,0)"> X</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">)</span><span style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br><br></span><span style=3D"color:rgb(136,0,0)">#de=
fine</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> times</span><span style=3D"col=
or:rgb(102,102,0)">(</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">X</span><span s=
tyle=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">)</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> tim=
es_auto</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">(</span><span style=3D"c=
olor:rgb(0,0,0)">CAT</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">(</span><sp=
an style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">EAT_</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0=
)">,</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> X</span><span style=3D"color:r=
gb(102,102,0)">))</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br><br></span><sp=
an style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,136)">extern</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0=
)"> </span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,136)">void</span><span style=3D"col=
or:rgb(0,0,0)"> f</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">(</span><span =
style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,136)">int</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)"=
>);</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br><br></span><span style=3D"co=
lor:rgb(0,0,136)">void</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> a</span><spa=
n style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">()</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">=
<br></span><span style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">{</span><span style=3D"colo=
r:rgb(0,0,0)"><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 </span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,136)">c=
onst</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> </span><span style=3D"color:rg=
b(0,0,136)">int</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> n </span><span styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">=3D</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> </sp=
an><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,102,102)">3</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(10=
2,102,0)">;</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 times<=
/span><span style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">(</span><span style=3D"color:rgb=
(0,0,136)">auto</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> i </span><span styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">:</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"> n</spa=
n><span style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">)</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0=
,0)"> </span><span style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">{</span><span style=3D"co=
lor:rgb(0,0,0)"><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 f</span><span style=
=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">(</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">i</span>=
<span style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">);</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,=
0)"><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 </span><span style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,0)">}</span><=
span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></span><span style=3D"color:rgb(102,102=
,0)">}</span></div></code></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Hah,=
 this seems like a fun game. My entry: <a href=3D"https://godbolt.org/g/yol=
wFc" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;htt=
ps://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fgodbolt.org%2Fg%2FyolwFc\x26sa\x=
3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNHFCxpm1PQV79gF77U1HIN2wvBiOA&#39;;return t=
rue;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%=
2F%2Fgodbolt.org%2Fg%2FyolwFc\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNHFCxp=
m1PQV79gF77U1HIN2wvBiOA&#39;;return true;">https://godbolt.org/g/yolwFc</a>=
</div><div><br></div><div>But really, why bother when we can just use</div>=
<div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 for (auto i : integral_range(n))</div><div><br><=
/div><div>?</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-lef=
t:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">So far it only works for const n and auto i. I&#39;=
m unsure if that&#39;s a problem at all - if you can modify (ok, destroy) n=
 then `while(n--)` does the trick in reverse order [1].<br>Wish we had cons=
texpr?: operator like if constexpr(), that&#39;d solve a lot of things...<b=
r>If you&#39;re worried about the performance, <a href=3D"https://godbolt.o=
rg/g/ioV3XB" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D=
&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fgodbolt.org%2Fg%2FioV3XB=
\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNFWAvAlHWVSgP8XPRa-CJOpXS8OaQ&#39;;=
return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dh=
ttps%3A%2F%2Fgodbolt.org%2Fg%2FioV3XB\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQ=
jCNFWAvAlHWVSgP8XPRa-CJOpXS8OaQ&#39;;return true;">https://godbolt.org/g/io=
V3XB</a><br>(Btw, I like the idea, I&#39;m just saying that a macro can do =
this for you.)<br>Or make it auto-less, that&#39;s far easier - you might m=
ake type spec an optional parameter. <br><br>Thanks,<br>-lorro<br>[1] Still=
 in TOP10, <a href=3D"http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1642028/what-is-th=
e-name-of-the-operator-in-c" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" onmousedown=
=3D"this.href=3D&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttp%3A%2F%2Fstackoverf=
low.com%2Fquestions%2F1642028%2Fwhat-is-the-name-of-the-operator-in-c\x26sa=
\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNEj0z-v4RbIgyDn4sjelnQ8cdIcmQ&#39;;return=
 true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttp%3A%=
2F%2Fstackoverflow.com%2Fquestions%2F1642028%2Fwhat-is-the-name-of-the-oper=
ator-in-c\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNEj0z-v4RbIgyDn4sjelnQ8cdI=
cmQ&#39;;return true;">http://stackoverflow.com/<wbr>questions/1642028/what=
-is-the-<wbr>name-of-the-operator-in-c</a><span><br><br>2016. janu=C3=A1r 1=
6., szombat 10:38:19 UTC+1 id=C5=91pontban Andrew Tomazos a k=C3=B6vetkez=
=C5=91t =C3=ADrta:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px=
 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div di=
r=3D"ltr">Please find attached a rough incomplete 2-page draft entitled &qu=
ot;Proposal of Index-Based For Loop&quot;<div><br></div><div>Preliminary th=
oughts appreciated.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Andrew.</div=
><div><br></div></div>
</blockquote></span></div>

<p></p>

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------=_Part_26_290245484.1475916031956--

------=_Part_25_2054679230.1475916031955--

.

--001a11444b2635e08e053e570ff7
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Sat, Oct 8, 2016 at 9:40 AM, <szollosi.lorand@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> UB: to my knowledge it's not UB, as the underlying types are int, i.e.,
> same-prefix POD. Just in case you're very worried, I can also do this under
> strict aliasing rules for int using `for(union { ...; bool j = true}; j;
> j=false) for(i = 0;...;...)` loop, same result applies.
>


I thought you might say that! :) But here's the thing. This is something
I've wondered about many times, and I don't think it's currently covered by
the language, though I'd welcome an authoritative comment on that, if
Richard or anyone has one!

The C++ Standard only makes an exception for allowing 'punning' i.e.
simultaneous existence/reading/writing of union members - which boils down
to simply substituting their names - when the access is done via an
instance of the union, and the members in question are "standard layout
structs with a common initial sequence".

(Thankfully, C++ did not adopt some of the horrible ambiguities that C has
in this area.)

And as far as I can tell, an int is not a struct. So I'm not sure the
wording makes any allowance for 'punning'  int or any other basic types
like this. Yeah, sure - a compiler would have to make efforts to generate
UB here - but the key thing is that it *could* do so, by omission.

But anyway, then I thought about it, and I realised - such 'punning' kind
of makes sense in the context of vintage C structs used as unsafe tagged
unions, but it makes no sense for primitive types. Why write union { int a;
int b; } when we can just write int c?

Well, I guess you've just tried to answer that question ;)

As for the rest, nest commentary on the 'whys' - it is indeed an amusing
thought experiment. I like Richard's syntax a lot more, though. :D

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--001a11444b2635e08e053e570ff7
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
On Sat, Oct 8, 2016 at 9:40 AM,  <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sz=
ollosi.lorand@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">szollosi.lorand@gmail.com</a>&gt=
;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
..8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi,<br><=
br>UB: to my knowledge it&#39;s not UB, as the underlying types are int, i.=
e., same-prefix POD. Just in case you&#39;re very worried, I can also do th=
is under strict aliasing rules for int using `for(union { ...; bool j =3D t=
rue}; j; j=3Dfalse) for(i =3D 0;...;...)` loop, same result applies.<br></d=
iv></blockquote></div><br><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">I thought yo=
u might say that! :) But here&#39;s the thing. This is something I&#39;ve w=
ondered about many times, and I don&#39;t think it&#39;s currently covered =
by the language, though I&#39;d welcome an authoritative comment on that, i=
f Richard or anyone has one!<br><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">The C+=
+ Standard only makes an exception for allowing &#39;punning&#39; i.e. simu=
ltaneous existence/reading/writing of <span style=3D"font-family:monospace,=
monospace">union</span> members - which boils down to simply substituting t=
heir names - when the access is done via an instance of the union, and the =
members in question are &quot;standard layout <span style=3D"font-family:mo=
nospace,monospace">struct</span>s with a common initial sequence&quot;.<br>=
<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">(Thankfully, C++ did not adopt some of=
 the horrible ambiguities that C has in this area.)<br></div><div class=3D"=
gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">And as far as I can tell,=
 an <span style=3D"font-family:monospace,monospace">int</span> is not a <sp=
an style=3D"font-family:monospace,monospace">struct</span>. So I&#39;m not =
sure the wording makes any allowance for &#39;punning&#39;=C2=A0 <span styl=
e=3D"font-family:monospace,monospace">int</span> or any other basic types l=
ike this. Yeah, sure - a compiler would have to make efforts to generate UB=
 here - but the key thing is that it <i>could</i> do so, by omission.<br><b=
r></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">But anyway, then I thought about it, and=
 I realised - such &#39;punning&#39; kind of makes sense in the context of =
vintage C structs used as unsafe tagged unions, but it makes no sense for p=
rimitive types. Why write<span style=3D"font-family:monospace,monospace"> u=
nion { int a; int b; }</span> when we can just write <span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:monospace,monospace">int c</span>?<br><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_ex=
tra">Well, I guess you&#39;ve just tried to answer that question ;)<br><br>=
</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">As for the rest, nest commentary on the &#=
39;whys&#39; - it is indeed an amusing thought experiment. I like Richard&#=
39;s syntax a lot more, though. :D<br></div></div>

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* nest => nice, wtf

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<div dir=3D"ltr">* nest =3D&gt; nice, wtf<br></div>

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Hi,

Just for reference, the totally UB-less code: (and yes, by all means,
generating a range is better. This is just about how to introduce a new
variable w/o {}.)

Thanks,
-lorro

#define EAT_auto
#define CAT1(X, Y) X ## Y
#define CAT(X, Y) CAT1(X, Y)

#define                                          \
times_auto(X)                                    \
    for (union                                   \
         {                                       \
             int  X * 0 + sizeof(int) * 8;       \
             bool run = true;                    \
             int j;                              \
         }; run; run = false)                    \
        for ((true ? X, j) = 0;                  \
             (true ? X) < (false ? X);           \
             true ? ++X)                         \

#define times(X) times_auto(CAT(EAT_, X))

extern void f(int);

void a()
{
    const int n = 3;
    times(auto i : n) {
          f(i);
    }
}

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi,<br><br>Just for reference, the totally UB-less code: (=
and yes, by all means, generating a range is better. This is just about how=
 to introduce a new variable w/o {}.)<br><br>Thanks,<br>-lorro<br><br><div =
class=3D"prettyprint" style=3D"background-color: rgb(250, 250, 250); border=
-color: rgb(187, 187, 187); border-style: solid; border-width: 1px; word-wr=
ap: break-word;"><code class=3D"prettyprint"><div class=3D"subprettyprint">=
<span style=3D"color: #800;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">#define</span><sp=
an style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> EAT_auto<br></span>=
<span style=3D"color: #800;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">#define</span><sp=
an style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> CAT1</span><span st=
yle=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">(</span><span style=3D"co=
lor: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">X</span><span style=3D"color: #660=
;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">,</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=
=3D"styled-by-prettify"> Y</span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styl=
ed-by-prettify">)</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-pre=
ttify"> X </span><span style=3D"color: #800;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">=
## Y</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"><br></=
span><span style=3D"color: #800;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">#define</spa=
n><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> CAT</span><spa=
n style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">(</span><span style=
=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">X</span><span style=3D"color=
: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">,</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" =
class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> Y</span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D=
"styled-by-prettify">)</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-b=
y-prettify"> CAT1</span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-pre=
ttify">(</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">X<=
/span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">,</span><sp=
an style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> Y</span><span style=
=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">)</span><span style=3D"color=
: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"><br><br></span><span style=3D"color: =
#800;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">#define</span><span style=3D"color: #00=
0;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D=
"styled-by-prettify">\</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-b=
y-prettify"><br>times_auto</span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styl=
ed-by-prettify">(</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-pre=
ttify">X</span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">)<=
/span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</span><span style=3D"color: #660;=
" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">\</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=
=3D"styled-by-prettify"><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 </span><span style=3D"color: #008=
;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">for</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" clas=
s=3D"styled-by-prettify"> </span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styl=
ed-by-prettify">(</span><span style=3D"color: #008;" class=3D"styled-by-pre=
ttify">union</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify=
"> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 </span><span style=3D"colo=
r: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">\</span><span style=3D"color: #000;"=
 class=3D"styled-by-prettify"><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</span>=
<span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">{</span><span sty=
le=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 </span><span style=3D"color: #660;" clas=
s=3D"styled-by-prettify">\</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styl=
ed-by-prettify"><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</span>=
<span style=3D"color: #008;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">int</span><span s=
tyle=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> =C2=A0X </span><span st=
yle=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">*</span><span style=3D"co=
lor: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> </span><span style=3D"color: #066=
;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">0</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=
=3D"styled-by-prettify"> </span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"style=
d-by-prettify">+</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-pret=
tify"> </span><span style=3D"color: #008;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">siz=
eof</span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">(</span=
><span style=3D"color: #008;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">int</span><span =
style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">)</span><span style=3D"=
color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> </span><span style=3D"color: #6=
60;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">*</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" clas=
s=3D"styled-by-prettify"> </span><span style=3D"color: #066;" class=3D"styl=
ed-by-prettify">8</span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-pre=
ttify">;</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 </span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by=
-prettify">\</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify=
"><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</span><span style=3D=
"color: #008;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">bool</span><span style=3D"color=
: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> run </span><span style=3D"color: #66=
0;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">=3D</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" cla=
ss=3D"styled-by-prettify"> </span><span style=3D"color: #008;" class=3D"sty=
led-by-prettify">true</span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by=
-prettify">;</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify=
"> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</s=
pan><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">\</span><span=
 style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</span><span style=3D"color: #008;" class=3D=
"styled-by-prettify">int</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled=
-by-prettify"> j</span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-pret=
tify">;</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D=
"styled-by-prettify">\</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-b=
y-prettify"><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</span><span style=3D"col=
or: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">};</span><span style=3D"color: #000=
;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> run</span><span style=3D"color: #660;" cla=
ss=3D"styled-by-prettify">;</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"sty=
led-by-prettify"> run </span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-b=
y-prettify">=3D</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prett=
ify"> </span><span style=3D"color: #008;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">fals=
e</span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">)</span><=
span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</span><span style=3D"c=
olor: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">\</span><span style=3D"color: #00=
0;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 </span><sp=
an style=3D"color: #008;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">for</span><span styl=
e=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> </span><span style=3D"colo=
r: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">((</span><span style=3D"color: #008;=
" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">true</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" clas=
s=3D"styled-by-prettify"> </span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styl=
ed-by-prettify">?</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-pre=
ttify"> X</span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">,=
</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> j</span><=
span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">)</span><span styl=
e=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> </span><span style=3D"colo=
r: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">=3D</span><span style=3D"color: #000=
;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> </span><span style=3D"color: #066;" class=
=3D"styled-by-prettify">0</span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"style=
d-by-prettify">;</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-pret=
tify"> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</span=
><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">\</span><span st=
yle=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"sty=
led-by-prettify">(</span><span style=3D"color: #008;" class=3D"styled-by-pr=
ettify">true</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify=
"> </span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">?</span=
><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> X</span><span s=
tyle=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">)</span><span style=3D"c=
olor: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> </span><span style=3D"color: #66=
0;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">&lt;</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" cl=
ass=3D"styled-by-prettify"> </span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"st=
yled-by-prettify">(</span><span style=3D"color: #008;" class=3D"styled-by-p=
rettify">false</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-pretti=
fy"> </span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">?</sp=
an><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> X</span><span=
 style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">);</span><span style=
=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 </span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">\<=
/span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"><br>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</span><span style=3D"color: #008;=
" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">true</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" clas=
s=3D"styled-by-prettify"> </span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styl=
ed-by-prettify">?</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-pre=
ttify"> </span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">++=
</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">X</span><s=
pan style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">)</span><span style=
=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 </span><span style=
=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">\</span><span style=3D"color=
: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"><br><br></span><span style=3D"color: =
#800;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">#define</span><span style=3D"color: #00=
0;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> times</span><span style=3D"color: #660;" =
class=3D"styled-by-prettify">(</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"=
styled-by-prettify">X</span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by=
-prettify">)</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify=
"> times_auto</span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettif=
y">(</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">CAT</s=
pan><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">(</span><span=
 style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">EAT_</span><span style=
=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">,</span><span style=3D"color=
: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> X</span><span style=3D"color: #660;"=
 class=3D"styled-by-prettify">))</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=
=3D"styled-by-prettify"><br><br></span><span style=3D"color: #008;" class=
=3D"styled-by-prettify">extern</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"=
styled-by-prettify"> </span><span style=3D"color: #008;" class=3D"styled-by=
-prettify">void</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prett=
ify"> f</span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">(</=
span><span style=3D"color: #008;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">int</span><s=
pan style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">);</span><span styl=
e=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"><br><br></span><span style=
=3D"color: #008;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">void</span><span style=3D"co=
lor: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> a</span><span style=3D"color: #66=
0;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">()</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" clas=
s=3D"styled-by-prettify"><br></span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"s=
tyled-by-prettify">{</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-=
prettify"><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 </span><span style=3D"color: #008;" class=3D"st=
yled-by-prettify">const</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-=
by-prettify"> </span><span style=3D"color: #008;" class=3D"styled-by-pretti=
fy">int</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> n =
</span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">=3D</span>=
<span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> </span><span sty=
le=3D"color: #066;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">3</span><span style=3D"col=
or: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">;</span><span style=3D"color: #000;=
" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 times</span><span style=3D=
"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">(</span><span style=3D"color: #=
008;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">auto</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" =
class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> i </span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=
=3D"styled-by-prettify">:</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"style=
d-by-prettify"> n</span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-pre=
ttify">)</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"> <=
/span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">{</span><sp=
an style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 f</span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-b=
y-prettify">(</span><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettif=
y">i</span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">);</sp=
an><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"><br>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 </span><span style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">}</spa=
n><span style=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"><br></span><spa=
n style=3D"color: #660;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify">}</span><span style=
=3D"color: #000;" class=3D"styled-by-prettify"><br></span></div></code></di=
v></div>

<p></p>

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On Friday, October 7, 2016 at 3:08:10 PM UTC-4, Barry Revzin wrote:
>
>
>> No it's not.  There is no special case in the standard that allows this.
>> There is nothing that says (for example) "for(;;) is allowed and results in
>> an infinite loop".  It's just a result of applying the rule that each of
>> the three parts of the for loop can be left blank.  It's the same rule that
>> allows "for( ; i < N; ++i)" or "for(int i = 0; i < N; )".
>>
>>
> Yes there is. [stmt.for] has explicit wording for empty condition:
>
> Either or both of the condition and the expression can be omitted. A
>> missing condition makes the implied
>
> while clause equivalent to while(true)
>
>
That's my point exactly.  There is no special case for "for (;;)", as Leo
proposed.  It's the very general rule that allows either the condition on
expression to be omitted, as Michal pointed out.

It's a huge leap to say that "since for(;;) is a special case that loops
forever, it makes sense to make for(500) loop 500 times".

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<div dir=3D"ltr">On Friday, October 7, 2016 at 3:08:10 PM UTC-4, Barry Revz=
in wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: =
0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-le=
ft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>No=
 it&#39;s not. =C2=A0There is no special case in the standard that allows t=
his. There is nothing that says (for example) &quot;for(;;) is allowed and =
results in an infinite loop&quot;. =C2=A0It&#39;s just a result of applying=
 the rule that each of the three parts of the for loop can be left blank. =
=C2=A0It&#39;s the same rule that allows &quot;for( ; i &lt; N; ++i)&quot; =
or &quot;for(int i =3D 0; i &lt; N; )&quot;.</div><div><br></div></div></bl=
ockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes there is. [stmt.for] has explicit wording =
for empty condition:</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pa=
dding-left:1ex">Either or both of the condition and the expression can be o=
mitted. A missing condition makes the implied</blockquote><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><font face=3D"courier new, monospace">whil=
e </font>clause equivalent to <font face=3D"courier new, monospace">while(t=
rue)</font></blockquote></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>That&#39;s m=
y point exactly. =C2=A0There is no special case for &quot;for (;;)&quot;, a=
s Leo proposed. =C2=A0It&#39;s the very general rule that allows either the=
 condition on expression to be omitted, as Michal pointed out.</div><div><b=
r></div><div>It&#39;s a huge leap to say that &quot;since for(;;) is a spec=
ial case that loops forever, it makes sense to make for(500) loop 500 times=
&quot;.</div><div><br></div></div>

<p></p>

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Em sexta-feira, 7 de outubro de 2016, =C3=A0s 06:38:28 CEST, Leo Heinsaar e=
screveu:
> > > Quickly glanced through the thread, didn't notice a frequent special
> >=20
> > case -
> >=20
> > > would something like the following be too fancy?
> > >=20
> > > for (500)
> > >=20
> > >     doSomething(); // 500 times, index irrelevant
> >=20
> > I don't think that's frequent enough. In 15 years of doing C++, I can't
> > remember the last time I've needed something like this.
>=20
> Come on, it surely is. Say, in some test code which calls a function 500
> times and then measures the average.

Right, I can't remember the last time. I usually just use QBENCHMARK macro,=
=20
which does its looping, measures time (or another type of events), and then=
=20
produces a report.

--=20
Thiago Macieira - thiago (AT) macieira.info - thiago (AT) kde.org
   Software Architect - Intel Open Source Technology Center

--=20
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>
> It's a huge leap to say that "since for(;;) is a special case that loops=
=20
> forever, it makes sense to make for(500) loop 500 times".
>

That's one small step for the Standard, one giant leap for mankind :-)

But if seriously, I guess I just don't see it as such. It may be too fancy,=
=20
or not worth the effort, but in terms of general/special cases, both=20
mathematically and =E2=80=94 as it turns out =E2=80=94 syntactically by the=
 Standard, it=20
looks like the most natural extension of meaning to me.

Simple loops that do something 500 times are perhaps the single most=20
"magic" thing that made and will continues to make many fall in love with=
=20
programming. You show for (500) cout << "Name"; to a classroom of 20, and=
=20
at least 5 of them will become programmers. (Try to do that with=20
QBENCHMARK.) Surely they (simple loops) deserve to be as simple as possible=
=20
in our favorite language =E2=80=94 for educational purposes if not for any =
other=20
reason. But that's just MHO.

--=20
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g.

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margi=
n-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><div>It&#39;s a huge leap to say that &quot;since for(;;) is a special =
case that loops forever, it makes sense to make for(500) loop 500 times&quo=
t;.<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>That&#39;s one small st=
ep for the Standard, one giant leap for mankind :-)<br></div><div><br></div=
><div>But if seriously, I guess I just don&#39;t see it as such. It may be =
too fancy, or not worth the effort, but in terms of general/special cases, =
both mathematically and =E2=80=94 as it turns out =E2=80=94 syntactically b=
y the Standard, it looks like the most natural extension of meaning to me.<=
/div><div><br></div><div>Simple loops that do something 500 times are perha=
ps the single most &quot;magic&quot; thing that made and will continues to =
make many fall in love with programming. You show for (500) cout &lt;&lt; &=
quot;Name&quot;; to a classroom of 20, and at least 5 of them will become p=
rogrammers. (Try to do that with QBENCHMARK.) Surely they (simple loops) de=
serve to be as simple as possible in our favorite language=C2=A0=E2=80=94 f=
or educational purposes if not for any other reason. But that&#39;s just MH=
O.</div></div>

<p></p>

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>
> > Come on, it surely is. Say, in some test code which calls a function 500
> > times and then measures the average.
>
> Right, I can't remember the last time. I usually just use QBENCHMARK
> macro,
> which does its looping, measures time (or another type of events), and
> then
> produces a report.
>

Well, not everybody uses Qt (great tool by the way), and benchmarking was
just an example anyway.

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margi=
n-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">&gt; Come on,=
 it surely is. Say, in some test code which calls a function 500
<br>&gt; times and then measures the average.
<br>
<br>Right, I can&#39;t remember the last time. I usually just use QBENCHMAR=
K macro,=20
<br>which does its looping, measures time (or another type of events), and =
then=20
<br>produces a report.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Well, not everyb=
ody uses Qt (great tool by the way), and benchmarking was just an example a=
nyway.</div></div>

<p></p>

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.

Em domingo, 9 de outubro de 2016, =C3=A0s 01:45:37 CEST, Leo Heinsaar escre=
veu:
> You show for (500) cout << "Name"; to a classroom of 20, and
> at least 5 of them will become programmers. (Try to do that with
> QBENCHMARK.)

QBENCHMARK
 expensiveFunction();

Produces:

RESULT : tst_BenchlibTickCounter::threeBillionTicks():
     1,358 msecs per iteration (total: 1,358, iterations: 1)

And with a few changes in the command-line, without changing the program, i=
t=20
can produce:

138,399,579 instruction reads per iteration (total: 138,399,579, iterations=
:=20
1)
3,000,005,772 CPU ticks per iteration (total: 3,000,005,772, iterations: 1)
4,321,883,842 CPU cycles per iteration (total: 4,321,883,842, iterations: 1=
)
7,455,968,077 instructions per iteration (total: 7,455,968,077, iterations:=
 1)
2,492,100,514 cache loads per iteration (total: 2,492,100,514, iterations: =
1)

etc.

--=20
Thiago Macieira - thiago (AT) macieira.info - thiago (AT) kde.org
   Software Architect - Intel Open Source Technology Center

--=20
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.

Em domingo, 9 de outubro de 2016, =C3=A0s 01:52:33 CEST, Leo Heinsaar escre=
veu:
> > > Come on, it surely is. Say, in some test code which calls a function =
500
> > > times and then measures the average.
> >=20
> > Right, I can't remember the last time. I usually just use QBENCHMARK
> > macro,
> > which does its looping, measures time (or another type of events), and
> > then
> > produces a report.
>=20
> Well, not everybody uses Qt (great tool by the way), and benchmarking was
> just an example anyway.

Then give me another. How often do you need to iterate a given number of ti=
mes=20
and not use the induction variable?

--=20
Thiago Macieira - thiago (AT) macieira.info - thiago (AT) kde.org
   Software Architect - Intel Open Source Technology Center

--=20
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>
> > You show for (500) cout << "Name"; to a classroom of 20, and
> > at least 5 of them will become programmers. (Try to do that with
> > QBENCHMARK.)
>
> QBENCHMARK
>         expensiveFunction();  ...


I meant the educational, not the technical aspect of it.

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margi=
n-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">&gt; You show=
 for (500) cout &lt;&lt; &quot;Name&quot;; to a classroom of 20, and
<br>&gt; at least 5 of them will become programmers. (Try to do that with
<br>&gt; QBENCHMARK.)
<br>
<br>QBENCHMARK
<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0expensiveFunction(); =
=C2=A0...=C2=A0</blockquote><div><br></div><div>I meant the educational, no=
t the technical aspect of it.</div></div>

<p></p>

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On Sun, Oct 9, 2016 at 9:45 AM, Leo Heinsaar <leoheinsaar@gmail.com> wrote:

> It's a huge leap to say that "since for(;;) is a special case that loops
>> forever, it makes sense to make for(500) loop 500 times".
>>
>
> [...]
>
> Simple loops that do something 500 times are perhaps the single most
> "magic" thing that made and will continues to make many fall in love with
> programming. You show for (500) cout << "Name"; to a classroom of 20, and
> at least 5 of them will become programmers. (Try to do that with
> QBENCHMARK.) Surely they (simple loops) deserve to be as simple as possib=
le
> in our favorite language =E2=80=94 for educational purposes if not for an=
y other
> reason. But that's just MHO.
>


Really? I would think/hope most people would get bored of a simple loop
within a few minutes and ask how they could do something that was actually
useful.

Given that, and the existence of more important barriers to super-fast
learning of this language, I don't see education utility as a convincing
rationale.

Besides, these hypothetical learners might quickly ask 'How can I print the
elapsed count in my loop? or How can I change the numbers I'm looping
between? or How can I jump by more than 1 each time?' .... and that's when
they'll see that the existing for loop is just fine.

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On S=
un, Oct 9, 2016 at 9:45 AM, Leo Heinsaar <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:leoheinsaar@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">leoheinsaar@gmail.com</a>&gt=
;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
..8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><span cl=
ass=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.=
8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>It&#=
39;s a huge leap to say that &quot;since for(;;) is a special case that loo=
ps forever, it makes sense to make for(500) loop 500 times&quot;.<br></div>=
</div></blockquote><div><br></div></span>[...]<div><br></div><div>Simple lo=
ops that do something 500 times are perhaps the single most &quot;magic&quo=
t; thing that made and will continues to make many fall in love with progra=
mming. You show for (500) cout &lt;&lt; &quot;Name&quot;; to a classroom of=
 20, and at least 5 of them will become programmers. (Try to do that with Q=
BENCHMARK.) Surely they (simple loops) deserve to be as simple as possible =
in our favorite language=C2=A0=E2=80=94 for educational purposes if not for=
 any other reason. But that&#39;s just MHO.<br></div></div></blockquote><di=
v><br><br></div><div>Really? I would think/hope most people would get bored=
 of a simple loop within a few minutes and ask how they could do something =
that was actually useful.<br><br></div><div>Given that, and the existence o=
f more important barriers to super-fast learning of this language, I don&#3=
9;t see education utility as a convincing rationale.<br><br></div><div>Besi=
des, these hypothetical learners might quickly ask &#39;How can I print the=
 elapsed count in my loop? or How can I change the numbers I&#39;m looping =
between? or How can I jump by more than 1 each time?&#39; .... and that&#39=
;s when they&#39;ll see that the existing for loop is just fine.<br><br></d=
iv></div></div></div>

<p></p>

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.

Em domingo, 9 de outubro de 2016, =C3=A0s 06:00:41 CEST, Leo Heinsaar escre=
veu:
> > > You show for (500) cout << "Name"; to a classroom of 20, and
> > > at least 5 of them will become programmers. (Try to do that with
> > > QBENCHMARK.)
> >=20
> > QBENCHMARK
> >=20
> >         expensiveFunction();  ...
>=20
> I meant the educational, not the technical aspect of it.

And we all know that code that you learn and write as a student in early=20
stages of programming is nowhere good. Why should we add more complexity to=
=20
the language for something that is hardly ever used once you're past that=
=20
stage?

--=20
Thiago Macieira - thiago (AT) macieira.info - thiago (AT) kde.org
   Software Architect - Intel Open Source Technology Center

--=20
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..org/d/msgid/std-proposals/1818128.E3SLxdONPZ%40tjmaciei-mobl1.

.

Hi,

Constexpr times(N) migh force loop unrolling. But actually, what I'd really=
 find useful is times(init-expr; times; post-expr). That'd give us this for=
(N), declare(int i) {}, scoped destruction of union members and stackless c=
oroutine variables / member statics that are only needed up to a point, stu=
ffing multiple statements into one (via switch), function reentry (via cont=
inue), and about a dozen more features that I can't currently think of.

Thanks,
-lorro

2016. okt. 10. d=C3=A1tummal, 4:02 id=C5=91pontban Thiago Macieira <thiago@=
macieira.org> =C3=ADrta:

> Em domingo, 9 de outubro de 2016, =C3=A0s 06:00:41 CEST, Leo Heinsaar esc=
reveu:
>>>> You show for (500) cout << "Name"; to a classroom of 20, and
>>>> at least 5 of them will become programmers. (Try to do that with
>>>> QBENCHMARK.)
>>>=20
>>> QBENCHMARK
>>>=20
>>>        expensiveFunction();  ...
>>=20
>> I meant the educational, not the technical aspect of it.
>=20
> And we all know that code that you learn and write as a student in early=
=20
> stages of programming is nowhere good. Why should we add more complexity =
to=20
> the language for something that is hardly ever used once you're past that=
=20
> stage?
>=20
> --=20
> Thiago Macieira - thiago (AT) macieira.info - thiago (AT) kde.org
>   Software Architect - Intel Open Source Technology Center
>=20
> --=20
> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Go=
ogle Groups "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.=
org/d/topic/std-proposals/f39RoLhdm1E/unsubscribe.
> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to std-p=
roposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org.
> To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org.
> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/isoc=
pp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/1818128.E3SLxdONPZ%40tjmaciei-mobl1.

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..

.

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Hi,

s/member statics/function statics/

Regards,
-lorro

2016. okt=C3=B3ber 10., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 20:56:48 UTC+2 id=C5=91pontban Lora=
nd Szollosi a=20
k=C3=B6vetkez=C5=91t =C3=ADrta:
>
> Hi,=20
>
> Constexpr times(N) migh force loop unrolling. But actually, what I'd=20
> really find useful is times(init-expr; times; post-expr). That'd give us=
=20
> this for(N), declare(int i) {}, scoped destruction of union members and=
=20
> stackless coroutine variables / member statics that are only needed up to=
=20
> a point, stuffing multiple statements into one (via switch), function=20
> reentry (via continue), and about a dozen more features that I can't=20
> currently think of.=20
>
> Thanks,=20
> -lorro=20
>
> 2016. okt. 10. d=C3=A1tummal, 4:02 id=C5=91pontban Thiago Macieira <
> thiago@macieira.org> =C3=ADrta:=20
>
> > Em domingo, 9 de outubro de 2016, =C3=A0s 06:00:41 CEST, Leo Heinsaar=
=20
> escreveu:=20
> >>>> You show for (500) cout << "Name"; to a classroom of 20, and=20
> >>>> at least 5 of them will become programmers. (Try to do that with=20
> >>>> QBENCHMARK.)=20
> >>>=20
> >>> QBENCHMARK=20
> >>>=20
> >>>        expensiveFunction();  ...=20
> >>=20
> >> I meant the educational, not the technical aspect of it.=20
> >=20
> > And we all know that code that you learn and write as a student in earl=
y=20
> > stages of programming is nowhere good. Why should we add more complexit=
y=20
> to=20
> > the language for something that is hardly ever used once you're past=20
> that=20
> > stage?=20
> >=20
> > --=20
> > Thiago Macieira - thiago (AT) macieira.info - thiago (AT) kde.org=20
> >   Software Architect - Intel Open Source Technology Center=20
> >=20
> > --=20
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the=
=20
> Google Groups "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.=20
> > To unsubscribe from this topic, visit=20
> https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/topic/std-proposals/f39RoLhdm1E/=
unsubscribe.=20
>
> > To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to=20
> std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org.=20
> > To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org.=20
> > To view this discussion on the web visit=20
> https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/1818128.E3SL=
xdONPZ%40tjmaciei-mobl1.=20
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi,<br><br>s/member statics/function statics/<br><br>Regar=
ds,<br>-lorro<br><br>2016. okt=C3=B3ber 10., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 20:56:48 UTC+2=
 id=C5=91pontban Lorand Szollosi a k=C3=B6vetkez=C5=91t =C3=ADrta:<blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left:=
 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">Hi,
<br>
<br>Constexpr times(N) migh force loop unrolling. But actually, what I&#39;=
d really find useful is times(init-expr; times; post-expr). That&#39;d give=
 us this for(N), declare(int i) {}, scoped destruction of union members and=
 stackless coroutine variables / <span style=3D"color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">mem=
ber</span> <span style=3D"color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">statics</span> that are o=
nly needed up to a point, stuffing multiple statements into one (via switch=
), function reentry (via continue), and about a dozen more features that I =
can&#39;t currently think of.
<br>
<br>Thanks,
<br>-lorro
<br>
<br>2016. okt. 10. d=C3=A1tummal, 4:02 id=C5=91pontban Thiago Macieira &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:thiago@macieira.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" o=
nmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;mailto:thiago@macieira.org&#39;;return true;=
" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;mailto:thiago@macieira.org&#39;;return true;"=
>thiago@macieira.org</a>&gt; =C3=ADrta:
<br>
<br>&gt; Em domingo, 9 de outubro de 2016, =C3=A0s 06:00:41 CEST, Leo Heins=
aar escreveu:
<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; You show for (500) cout &lt;&lt; &quot;Name&quot;; to =
a classroom of 20, and
<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; at least 5 of them will become programmers. (Try to do=
 that with
<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; QBENCHMARK.)
<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;=20
<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; QBENCHMARK
<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;=20
<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0expensiveFunction(); =C2=A0...
<br>&gt;&gt;=20
<br>&gt;&gt; I meant the educational, not the technical aspect of it.
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; And we all know that code that you learn and write as a student in=
 early=20
<br>&gt; stages of programming is nowhere good. Why should we add more comp=
lexity to=20
<br>&gt; the language for something that is hardly ever used once you&#39;r=
e past that=20
<br>&gt; stage?
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; --=20
<br>&gt; Thiago Macieira - thiago (AT) <a href=3D"http://macieira.info" tar=
get=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;http://www.=
google.com/url?q\x3dhttp%3A%2F%2Fmacieira.info\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26u=
sg\x3dAFQjCNEswDUBNCNanbu7euhqLn_62FW8ag&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D"this=
..href=3D&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttp%3A%2F%2Fmacieira.info\x26s=
a\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNEswDUBNCNanbu7euhqLn_62FW8ag&#39;;retur=
n true;">macieira.info</a> - thiago (AT) <a href=3D"http://kde.org" target=
=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;http://www.goo=
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#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttp%3A%2F%2Fkde.org\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\=
x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNHGRJdo5_JYG1DowztwAHAKs80XSA&#39;;return true;">kde.or=
g</a>
<br>&gt; =C2=A0 Software Architect - Intel Open Source Technology Center
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; --=20
<br>&gt; You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in=
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<br></blockquote></div>

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------=_Part_2612_2079965733.1476127099690--

.

why not use a sequence class like this

for(auto i : seq<int>(500) ) smt;

where seq is defined such that it's a standard container like thing with=20
begin and end defined to iterate over the range

http://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/language/range-for

i.e.

template<typename T>
class seq {
     private:
          T _start =3D 0;
          T _step =3D 1;
          T _end;
     public:
         seq(T _e) : _end(_e) {};
         seq(T _s, T _e) : _start(_s), _end(_e) {};
         seq(T _s, T _e, T _stp) : _start(_s), _end(_e), _step(_stp) {};
         seqiterator<T> begin();
         seqiterator<T> end();
}

where seqiterator is an interator that ranges over the values from=20
_start to _end going step at a time

you might also want to look at Eric Nieblers range stuff I think he=20
might have built this already

https://github.com/ericniebler/range-v3 and=20
https://ericniebler.github.io/range-v3/

On 11/10/16 05:56, Lorand Szollosi wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Constexpr times(N) migh force loop unrolling. But actually, what I'd real=
ly find useful is times(init-expr; times; post-expr). That'd give us this f=
or(N), declare(int i) {}, scoped destruction of union members and stackless=
 coroutine variables / member statics that are only needed up to a point, s=
tuffing multiple statements into one (via switch), function reentry (via co=
ntinue), and about a dozen more features that I can't currently think of.
>
> Thanks,
> -lorro
>
> 2016. okt. 10. d=C3=A1tummal, 4:02 id=C5=91pontban Thiago Macieira <thiag=
o@macieira.org> =C3=ADrta:
>
>> Em domingo, 9 de outubro de 2016, =C3=A0s 06:00:41 CEST, Leo Heinsaar es=
creveu:
>>>>> You show for (500) cout << "Name"; to a classroom of 20, and
>>>>> at least 5 of them will become programmers. (Try to do that with
>>>>> QBENCHMARK.)
>>>> QBENCHMARK
>>>>
>>>>         expensiveFunction();  ...
>>> I meant the educational, not the technical aspect of it.
>> And we all know that code that you learn and write as a student in early
>> stages of programming is nowhere good. Why should we add more complexity=
 to
>> the language for something that is hardly ever used once you're past tha=
t
>> stage?
>>
>> --=20
>> Thiago Macieira - thiago (AT) macieira.info - thiago (AT) kde.org
>>    Software Architect - Intel Open Source Technology Center
>>
>> --=20
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the G=
oogle Groups "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp=
..org/d/topic/std-proposals/f39RoLhdm1E/unsubscribe.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to std-=
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>> To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org.
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cpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/1818128.E3SLxdONPZ%40tjmaciei-mobl1.

--=20

    .~.     In my life God comes first....
    /V\         but Linux is pretty high after that :-D
   /( )\    Francis (Grizzly) Smit
   ^^-^^    http://www.smit.id.au/
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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GM/CS/H/P/S/IT/L d- s+:+ a++ C++++ UL++++$ P+++ L+++$ E--- W+++
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Hi,

Note that this was proposed to OP who didn't like it.
(Also, it doesn't give you all the benefits I've listed above.)

Thanks,
-lorro

2016. okt=C3=B3ber 10., h=C3=A9tf=C5=91 22:05:42 UTC+2 id=C5=91pontban Fran=
cis Grizzly Smit a=20
k=C3=B6vetkez=C5=91t =C3=ADrta:
>
> why not use a sequence class like this=20
>
> for(auto i : seq<int>(500) ) smt;=20
>
> where seq is defined such that it's a standard container like thing with=
=20
> begin and end defined to iterate over the range=20
>
> http://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/language/range-for=20
>
> i.e.=20
>
> template<typename T>=20
> class seq {=20
>      private:=20
>           T _start =3D 0;=20
>           T _step =3D 1;=20
>           T _end;=20
>      public:=20
>          seq(T _e) : _end(_e) {};=20
>          seq(T _s, T _e) : _start(_s), _end(_e) {};=20
>          seq(T _s, T _e, T _stp) : _start(_s), _end(_e), _step(_stp) {};=
=20
>          seqiterator<T> begin();=20
>          seqiterator<T> end();=20
> }=20
>
> where seqiterator is an interator that ranges over the values from=20
> _start to _end going step at a time=20
>
> you might also want to look at Eric Nieblers range stuff I think he=20
> might have built this already=20
>
> https://github.com/ericniebler/range-v3 and=20
> https://ericniebler.github.io/range-v3/=20
>
> On 11/10/16 05:56, Lorand Szollosi wrote:=20
> > Hi,=20
> >=20
> > Constexpr times(N) migh force loop unrolling. But actually, what I'd=20
> really find useful is times(init-expr; times; post-expr). That'd give us=
=20
> this for(N), declare(int i) {}, scoped destruction of union members and=
=20
> stackless coroutine variables / member statics that are only needed up to=
 a=20
> point, stuffing multiple statements into one (via switch), function reent=
ry=20
> (via continue), and about a dozen more features that I can't currently=20
> think of.=20
> >=20
> > Thanks,=20
> > -lorro=20
> >=20
> > 2016. okt. 10. d=C3=A1tummal, 4:02 id=C5=91pontban Thiago Macieira <
> thi...@macieira.org <javascript:>> =C3=ADrta:=20
> >=20
> >> Em domingo, 9 de outubro de 2016, =C3=A0s 06:00:41 CEST, Leo Heinsaar=
=20
> escreveu:=20
> >>>>> You show for (500) cout << "Name"; to a classroom of 20, and=20
> >>>>> at least 5 of them will become programmers. (Try to do that with=20
> >>>>> QBENCHMARK.)=20
> >>>> QBENCHMARK=20
> >>>>=20
> >>>>         expensiveFunction();  ...=20
> >>> I meant the educational, not the technical aspect of it.=20
> >> And we all know that code that you learn and write as a student in=20
> early=20
> >> stages of programming is nowhere good. Why should we add more=20
> complexity to=20
> >> the language for something that is hardly ever used once you're past=
=20
> that=20
> >> stage?=20
> >>=20
> >> --=20
> >> Thiago Macieira - thiago (AT) macieira.info - thiago (AT) kde.org=20
> >>    Software Architect - Intel Open Source Technology Center=20
> >>=20
> >> --=20
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the=
=20
> Google Groups "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.=20
> >> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit=20
> https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/topic/std-proposals/f39RoLhdm1E/=
unsubscribe.=20
>
> >> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to=20
> std-proposal...@isocpp.org <javascript:>.=20
> >> To post to this group, send email to std-pr...@isocpp.org <javascript:=
>.=20
>
> >> To view this discussion on the web visit=20
> https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/1818128.E3SL=
xdONPZ%40tjmaciei-mobl1.=20
>
>
> --=20
>
>     .~.     In my life God comes first....=20
>     /V\         but Linux is pretty high after that :-D=20
>    /( )\    Francis (Grizzly) Smit=20
>    ^^-^^    http://www.smit.id.au/=20
> -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----=20
> Version: 3.1=20
> GM/CS/H/P/S/IT/L d- s+:+ a++ C++++ UL++++$ P+++ L+++$ E--- W+++=20
> N w--- M-- V-- PE- PGP t+ 5-- X-- R- tv b++++ DI(+) D-=20
> G e++ h+ y? r% z---=20
> ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------=20
> http://www.geekcode.com/=20
>
>

--=20
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi,<br><br>Note that this was proposed to OP who didn&#39;=
t like it.<br>(Also, it doesn&#39;t give you all the benefits I&#39;ve list=
ed above.)<br><br>Thanks,<br>-lorro<br><br>2016. okt=C3=B3ber 10., h=C3=A9t=
f=C5=91 22:05:42 UTC+2 id=C5=91pontban Francis Grizzly Smit a k=C3=B6vetkez=
=C5=91t =C3=ADrta:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;marg=
in-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">why not use =
a sequence class like this
<br>
<br>for(auto i : seq&lt;int&gt;(500) ) smt;
<br>
<br>where seq is defined such that it&#39;s a standard container like thing=
 with=20
<br>begin and end defined to iterate over the range
<br>
<br><a href=3D"http://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/language/range-for" target=
=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;http://www.goo=
gle.com/url?q\x3dhttp%3A%2F%2Fen.cppreference.com%2Fw%2Fcpp%2Flanguage%2Fra=
nge-for\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNH3QhRuPJz-ujdUDPswW3mC177eO=
A&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;http://www.google.com/url?=
q\x3dhttp%3A%2F%2Fen.cppreference.com%2Fw%2Fcpp%2Flanguage%2Frange-for\x26s=
a\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNH3QhRuPJz-ujdUDPswW3mC177eOA&#39;;retur=
n true;">http://en.cppreference.com/w/<wbr>cpp/language/range-for</a>
<br>
<br>i.e.
<br>
<br>template&lt;typename T&gt;
<br>class seq {
<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0private:
<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 T _start =3D 0;
<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 T _step =3D 1;
<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 T _end;
<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0public:
<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0seq(T _e) : _end(_e) {};
<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0seq(T _s, T _e) : _start(_s), _end(_e=
) {};
<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0seq(T _s, T _e, T _stp) : _start(_s),=
 _end(_e), _step(_stp) {};
<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0seqiterator&lt;T&gt; begin();
<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0seqiterator&lt;T&gt; end();
<br>}
<br>
<br>where seqiterator is an interator that ranges over the values from=20
<br>_start to _end going step at a time
<br>
<br>you might also want to look at Eric Nieblers range stuff I think he=20
<br>might have built this already
<br>
<br><a href=3D"https://github.com/ericniebler/range-v3" target=3D"_blank" r=
el=3D"nofollow" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://www.google.com/url?=
q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fericniebler%2Frange-v3\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x=
3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNF6-7MwmERsjtO_yikBxBOgeh0fkA&#39;;return true;" onclick=
=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fgithub.c=
om%2Fericniebler%2Frange-v3\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNF6-7Mwm=
ERsjtO_yikBxBOgeh0fkA&#39;;return true;">https://github.com/<wbr>ericnieble=
r/range-v3</a> and=20
<br><a href=3D"https://ericniebler.github.io/range-v3/" target=3D"_blank" r=
el=3D"nofollow" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://www.google.com/url?=
q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fericniebler.github.io%2Frange-v3%2F\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x=
3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNHdpMWPZ4IBG_Bbzjvnp4Di_V_xhw&#39;;return true;" onclick=
=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fericnieb=
ler.github.io%2Frange-v3%2F\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNHdpMWPZ=
4IBG_Bbzjvnp4Di_V_xhw&#39;;return true;">https://ericniebler.github.io/<wbr=
>range-v3/</a>
<br>
<br>On 11/10/16 05:56, Lorand Szollosi wrote:
<br>&gt; Hi,
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; Constexpr times(N) migh force loop unrolling. But actually, what I=
&#39;d really find useful is times(init-expr; times; post-expr). That&#39;d=
 give us this for(N), declare(int i) {}, scoped destruction of union member=
s and stackless coroutine variables / member statics that are only needed u=
p to a point, stuffing multiple statements into one (via switch), function =
reentry (via continue), and about a dozen more features that I can&#39;t cu=
rrently think of.
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; Thanks,
<br>&gt; -lorro
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; 2016. okt. 10. d=C3=A1tummal, 4:02 id=C5=91pontban Thiago Macieira=
 &lt;<a href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto=3D"WgA=
u4J3YAAAJ" rel=3D"nofollow" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;javascript:&#39=
;;return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;">=
thi...@macieira.org</a>&gt; =C3=ADrta:
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt; Em domingo, 9 de outubro de 2016, =C3=A0s 06:00:41 CEST, Leo H=
einsaar escreveu:
<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; You show for (500) cout &lt;&lt; &quot;Name&quot;;=
 to a classroom of 20, and
<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; at least 5 of them will become programmers. (Try t=
o do that with
<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; QBENCHMARK.)
<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; QBENCHMARK
<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 expensiveFunction(); =C2=
=A0...
<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; I meant the educational, not the technical aspect of it.
<br>&gt;&gt; And we all know that code that you learn and write as a studen=
t in early
<br>&gt;&gt; stages of programming is nowhere good. Why should we add more =
complexity to
<br>&gt;&gt; the language for something that is hardly ever used once you&#=
39;re past that
<br>&gt;&gt; stage?
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt; --=20
<br>&gt;&gt; Thiago Macieira - thiago (AT) <a href=3D"http://macieira.info"=
 target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;http://=
www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttp%3A%2F%2Fmacieira.info\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\=
x26usg\x3dAFQjCNEswDUBNCNanbu7euhqLn_62FW8ag&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D"=
this.href=3D&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttp%3A%2F%2Fmacieira.info\=
x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNEswDUBNCNanbu7euhqLn_62FW8ag&#39;;r=
eturn true;">macieira.info</a> - thiago (AT) <a href=3D"http://kde.org" tar=
get=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;http://www.=
google.com/url?q\x3dhttp%3A%2F%2Fkde.org\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3d=
AFQjCNHGRJdo5_JYG1DowztwAHAKs80XSA&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=
=3D&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttp%3A%2F%2Fkde.org\x26sa\x3dD\x26s=
ntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNHGRJdo5_JYG1DowztwAHAKs80XSA&#39;;return true;">kd=
e.org</a>
<br>&gt;&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0Software Architect - Intel Open Source Technology=
 Center
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt; --=20
<br>&gt;&gt; You received this message because you are subscribed to a topi=
c in the Google Groups &quot;ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals&quot; grou=
p.
<br>&gt;&gt; To unsubscribe from this topic, visit <a href=3D"https://group=
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<br>
<br>--=20
<br>
<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 .~. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 In my life God comes first....
<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 /V\ =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 but Linux is pretty high =
after that :-D
<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0/( )\ =C2=A0 =C2=A0Francis (Grizzly) Smit
<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0^^-^^ =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"http://www.smit.id.au/" targ=
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his.href=3D&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.smit.id.au%=
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;;return true;">http://www.smit.id.au/</a>
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<br>G e++ h+ y? r% z---
<br>------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
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<br>
<br></blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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