What's the procedure for submitting a *language* (not library) proposal?
The only document I can find is [1], which makes scary noises about
being possibly out of date, and deals with library, not language
proposals. (And [2] lacks any instructions whatsoever, besides floating
ideas here first.)

[1] http://open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2012/n3370.html
[2] https://isocpp.org/std/submit-a-proposal

--
Matthew

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2016-01-28 20:04 GMT+01:00 Matthew Woehlke <mwoehlke.floss@gmail.com>:
> What's the procedure for submitting a *language* (not library) proposal?
> The only document I can find is [1], which makes scary noises about
> being possibly out of date, and deals with library, not language
> proposals. (And [2] lacks any instructions whatsoever, besides floating
> ideas here first.)
>
> [1] http://open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2012/n3370.html
> [2] https://isocpp.org/std/submit-a-proposal

Regardless of the intended audience, please always send to the
lwgchair address (as you did some minutes ago). I agree that the
description on the ISO page could be improved.

Thanks,

- Daniel

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On Thursday, January 28, 2016 at 2:04:58 PM UTC-5, Matthew Woehlke wrote:
>
> What's the procedure for submitting a *language* (not library) proposal?=
=20
> The only document I can find is [1], which makes scary noises about=20
> being possibly out of date, and deals with library, not language=20
> proposals. (And [2] lacks any instructions whatsoever, besides floating=
=20
> ideas here first.)=20
>
> [1] http://open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2012/n3370.html=20
> [2] https://isocpp.org/std/submit-a-proposal=20
>

See the very last question on 2:

Q: That=E2=80=99s all about new standard library features. How do I propose=
 a new=20
feature for the C++ core language itself?
....we strongly suggest you first come to at least one face-to-face=20
committee meeting to participate in person. ...  We want new proposals to=
=20
succeed, and the orientation you get in person has proven to be essential=
=20
for that.

--=20

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<div dir=3D"ltr">On Thursday, January 28, 2016 at 2:04:58 PM UTC-5, Matthew=
 Woehlke wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-=
left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">What&#39;s the =
procedure for submitting a *language* (not library) proposal?
<br>The only document I can find is [1], which makes scary noises about
<br>being possibly out of date, and deals with library, not language
<br>proposals. (And [2] lacks any instructions whatsoever, besides floating
<br>ideas here first.)
<br>
<br>[1] <a href=3D"http://open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2012/n337=
0.html" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;=
http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fopen-std.org%2Fjtc1%2Fsc22%2Fwg2=
1%2Fdocs%2Fpapers%2F2012%2Fn3370.html\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFv=
m0wsk_paFZ3QmmJf84dC0znHcg&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;h=
ttp://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fopen-std.org%2Fjtc1%2Fsc22%2Fwg21=
%2Fdocs%2Fpapers%2F2012%2Fn3370.html\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNFvm=
0wsk_paFZ3QmmJf84dC0znHcg&#39;;return true;">http://open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/=
<wbr>wg21/docs/papers/2012/n3370.<wbr>html</a>
<br>[2] <a href=3D"https://isocpp.org/std/submit-a-proposal" target=3D"_bla=
nk" rel=3D"nofollow" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://www.google.com=
/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fisocpp.org%2Fstd%2Fsubmit-a-proposal\46sa\75D\46sntz=
\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGlLyCIYYQUZNTTJdUEpCYxvwG8Ig&#39;;return true;" onclick=
=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fisocpp.or=
g%2Fstd%2Fsubmit-a-proposal\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGlLyCIYYQUZN=
TTJdUEpCYxvwG8Ig&#39;;return true;">https://isocpp.org/std/submit-<wbr>a-pr=
oposal</a>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>See the very last question on 2:</div>=
<div><br></div><p style=3D"margin-bottom: 17px; font-stretch: inherit; line=
-height: 27.2px; font-family: elena-web-basic, Georgia, &#39;Times New Roma=
n&#39;, serif; font-size: 17px; vertical-align: baseline; color: rgb(51, 51=
, 51);"><span style=3D"font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-wei=
ght: 700; font-stretch: inherit; line-height: inherit; font-family: inherit=
; vertical-align: baseline;">Q: That=E2=80=99s all about new standard libra=
ry features. How do I propose a new feature for the C++ core language itsel=
f?</span></p><div><span style=3D"color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: elena=
-web-basic, Georgia, &#39;Times New Roman&#39;, serif; font-size: 17px; lin=
e-height: 27.2px;">...we strongly suggest you first come to at least one fa=
ce-to-face committee meeting to participate in person. ... =C2=A0We want ne=
w proposals to succeed, and the orientation you get in person has proven to=
 be essential for that.</span></div><div><span style=3D"color: rgb(51, 51, =
51); font-family: elena-web-basic, Georgia, &#39;Times New Roman&#39;, seri=
f; font-size: 17px; line-height: 27.2px;"><br></span></div></div>

<p></p>

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On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 11:08 AM, Daniel Kr=C3=BCgler <daniel.kruegler@gmai=
l.com>
wrote:
>
> Regardless of the intended audience, please always send to the
> lwgchair address (as you did some minutes ago). I agree that the
> description on the ISO page could be improved.


+1

I was confused as well. This should really be updated.

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On T=
hu, Jan 28, 2016 at 11:08 AM, Daniel Kr=C3=BCgler <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:daniel.kruegler@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">daniel.kruegler=
@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Regardless o=
f the intended audience, please always send to the<br>
lwgchair address (as you did some minutes ago). I agree that the<br>
description on the ISO page could be improved.</blockquote><div><br></div><=
div>+1</div><div><br></div><div>I was confused as well. This should really =
be updated.</div></div></div></div>

<p></p>

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2016-01-28 20:27 GMT+01:00 'Matt Calabrese' via ISO C++ Standard -
Future Proposals <std-proposals@isocpp.org>:
> On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 11:08 AM, Daniel Kr=C3=BCgler <daniel.kruegler@gm=
ail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> Regardless of the intended audience, please always send to the
>> lwgchair address (as you did some minutes ago). I agree that the
>> description on the ISO page could be improved.
>
> +1
>
> I was confused as well. This should really be updated.

Nonetheless Greg's quote is highly recommended as well, actually also
for non-CWG papers.

- Daniel

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On 28 January 2016 at 13:19, Greg Marr <gregmmarr@gmail.com> wrote:

> ...we strongly suggest you first come to at least one face-to-face
> committee meeting to participate in person. ...  We want new proposals to
> succeed, and the orientation you get in person has proven to be essential
> for that.
>

That being said, sometimes writing a proposal is how you get your
management to send you to a meeting.

Of course, if you are submitting a proposal, you should plan on either
attending the meeting or have a champion at the meeting for it; otherwise,
it is far more likely than not just to languish.
--
 Nevin ":-)" Liber  <mailto:nevin@cplusplusguy.com <nevin@eviloverlord.com>>
+1-847-691-1404

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<div dir=3D"ltr">On 28 January 2016 at 13:19, Greg Marr <span dir=3D"ltr">&=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregmmarr@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregmmarr@gmail=
..com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmai=
l_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><span style=
=3D"color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:elena-web-basic,Georgia,&#39;Times New =
Roman&#39;,serif;font-size:17px;line-height:27.2px">...we strongly suggest =
you first come to at least one face-to-face committee meeting to participat=
e in person. ...=C2=A0 We want new proposals to succeed, and the orientatio=
n you get in person has proven to be essential for that.</span></div></div>=
</blockquote><div><br></div><div>That being said, sometimes writing a propo=
sal is how you get your management to send you to a meeting.</div><div><br>=
</div><div>Of course, if you are submitting a proposal, you should plan on =
either attending the meeting or have a champion at the meeting for it; othe=
rwise, it is far more likely than not just to languish.<br>-- <br><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0Nevin &quot;:-)&quot; Liber=C2=
=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:nevin@eviloverlord.com" target=3D"_blank">=
nevin@cplusplusguy.com</a>&gt;=C2=A0 +1-847-691-1404<br></div></div>
</div></div></div>
</div>

<p></p>

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On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 11:31 AM, Nevin Liber <nevin@cplusplusguy.com>
wrote:
>
> That being said, sometimes writing a proposal is how you get your
> management to send you to a meeting.
>

+1

On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 11:31 AM, Nevin Liber <nevin@cplusplusguy.com>
 wrote:

> Of course, if you are submitting a proposal, you should plan on either
> attending the meeting or have a champion at the meeting for it; otherwise,
> it is far more likely than not just to languish.
>

I'm admittedly new to standardization, and while I somewhat agree, I think
that the quoted suggestion is at least a little bit discouraging, as it can
be very difficult to get to meetings depending on your location and/or
financial situation -- my thoughts are to read papers in the mailings and
look at feedback to get a sense of what's expected, and don't be afraid to
submit even if you haven't attended. You can always find someone to
champion your paper or go to the next meeting and get feedback, whether or
not you actually present the proposal, and you can come back again with a
revision if something is lacking. If your proposal gets consensus
immediately, then that's great. If not, your proposal probably won't be
totally dead unless there are serious flaws that cannot be reconciled,
anyway. Attending a meeting before submitting a proposal can be costly and
can delay things too much, especially if you are targeting a deadline (such
as if you'd like something for C++17).

As the least experienced person in this thread, but as someone who wrote a
paper and presented at his first meeting (Kona), I'd suggest writing the
paper and trying to present in Jacksonville, or find a champion. If you
only attend in Jacksonville without a paper, I imagine it'd probably much
harder for you to get to Finland in June (that might be an incorrect
assumption), and the Finland meeting is the cutoff point for new features
for C++17. I don't know what your paper is specifically, but I don't
suggest delaying things. Just be able to accept the increased likely-hood
of a lack of consensus first time around, and don't be discouraged by that.

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On T=
hu, Jan 28, 2016 at 11:31 AM, Nevin Liber <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:nevin@cplusplusguy.com" target=3D"_blank">nevin@cplusplusguy.com</a>=
&gt;</span> wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px=
 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-=
left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_ext=
ra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>That being said, sometimes writing a pr=
oposal is how you get your management to send you to a meeting.</div></div>=
</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>+1</div><div><br></div><div>On=
 Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 11:31 AM, Nevin Liber=C2=A0<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:nevin@cplusplusguy.com" target=3D"_blank">nevin@cplusplusguy.=
com</a>&gt;</span>=C2=A0wrote:=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:=
rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"=
><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>Of course, if y=
ou are submitting a proposal, you should plan on either attending the meeti=
ng or have a champion at the meeting for it; otherwise, it is far more like=
ly than not just to languish.<br></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>=
<br></div><div>I&#39;m admittedly new to standardization, and while I somew=
hat agree, I think that the quoted suggestion is at least a little bit disc=
ouraging, as it can be very difficult to get to meetings depending on your =
location and/or financial situation -- my thoughts are to read papers in th=
e mailings and look at feedback to get a sense of what&#39;s expected, and =
don&#39;t be afraid to submit even if you haven&#39;t attended. You can alw=
ays find someone to champion your paper or go to the next meeting and get f=
eedback, whether or not you actually present the proposal, and you can come=
 back again with a revision if something is lacking. If your proposal gets =
consensus immediately, then that&#39;s great. If not, your proposal probabl=
y won&#39;t be totally dead unless there are serious flaws that cannot be r=
econciled, anyway. Attending a meeting before submitting a proposal can be =
costly and can delay things too much, especially if you are targeting a dea=
dline (such as if you&#39;d like something for C++17).</div><div><br></div>=
<div>As the least experienced person in this thread, but as someone who wro=
te a paper and presented at his first meeting (Kona), I&#39;d suggest writi=
ng the paper and trying to present in Jacksonville, or find a champion. If =
you only attend in Jacksonville without a paper, I imagine it&#39;d probabl=
y much harder for you to get to Finland in June (that might be an incorrect=
 assumption), and the Finland meeting is the cutoff point for new features =
for C++17. I don&#39;t know what your paper is specifically, but I don&#39;=
t suggest delaying things. Just be able to accept the increased likely-hood=
 of a lack of consensus first time around, and don&#39;t be discouraged by =
that.</div></div></div></div>

<p></p>

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.

On 28 January 2016 at 21:57, 'Matt Calabrese' via ISO C++ Standard -
Future Proposals > As the least experienced person in this thread, but
as someone who wrote a
> paper and presented at his first meeting (Kona), I'd suggest writing the
> paper and trying to present in Jacksonville, or find a champion. If you only
> attend in Jacksonville without a paper, I imagine it'd probably much harder
> for you to get to Finland in June (that might be an incorrect assumption),
> and the Finland meeting is the cutoff point for new features for C++17. I
> don't know what your paper is specifically, but I don't suggest delaying
> things. Just be able to accept the increased likely-hood of a lack of
> consensus first time around, and don't be discouraged by that.


If you come to the Finland meeting with a C++17-targetting paper and it's the
first time EWG sees that paper, you are wasting your time. If you do the
same thing for Jacksonville, there's a smaller but still a very
significant chance
that you are wasting your time.

For what it's worth, the instructions on isocpp.org may be discouraging, but
they are not meant to be encouraging. The bar for language features is higher
than for library features.

Nevin's comment about finding a champion is spot-on.

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On 2016-01-28 15:06, Ville Voutilainen wrote:
> If you come to the Finland meeting with a C++17-targetting paper and it's the
> first time EWG sees that paper, you are wasting your time. If you do the
> same thing for Jacksonville, there's a smaller but still a very
> significant chance that you are wasting your time.

So are you saying I shouldn't even bother until after C++17 is out? I'd
like to at least get the process started, even if I don't make C++17; do
you mean that would be counterproductive?

(FWIW, one of the papers is a resurrection of N1420, from way back in
2003(!). I was unable to contact the author or otherwise determine why
it was never accepted. So at least in a sense, Jacksonville wouldn't be
"the first time EWG sees that paper".)

> Nevin's comment about finding a champion is spot-on.

Meaning what? I'd intended to present papers myself. I know publishing
without presenting is not effective; is that what you meant?

--
Matthew

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On 28 January 2016 at 22:44, Matthew Woehlke <mwoehlke.floss@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2016-01-28 15:06, Ville Voutilainen wrote:
>> If you come to the Finland meeting with a C++17-targetting paper and it's the
>> first time EWG sees that paper, you are wasting your time. If you do the
>> same thing for Jacksonville, there's a smaller but still a very
>> significant chance that you are wasting your time.
>
> So are you saying I shouldn't even bother until after C++17 is out? I'd
> like to at least get the process started, even if I don't make C++17; do
> you mean that would be counterproductive?

High priority will be given for material that revises proposals that have
been reviewed by EWG, we must finish the design work for C++17.
I have high hopes that we can start beyond-C++17 work in Oulu, but I do not
expect we can do such work in Jacksonville, realistically.

> (FWIW, one of the papers is a resurrection of N1420, from way back in
> 2003(!). I was unable to contact the author or otherwise determine why
> it was never accepted. So at least in a sense, Jacksonville wouldn't be
> "the first time EWG sees that paper".)

Correct, it wouldn't be the first time. However, it would be a new proposal
as far as the pipeline for C++17 is concerned, since it hasn't been in that
pipeline before, and is thus unlikely to get much priority.

>
>> Nevin's comment about finding a champion is spot-on.
> Meaning what? I'd intended to present papers myself. I know publishing
> without presenting is not effective; is that what you meant?


Yes. If you can attend a meeting and present your papers yourself, that's fine.
Otherwise, finding a champion is important.

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I was about to ask almost the same question. But the 'simpler' case -a LEWG=
 paper.=C2=A0

Both isocpp.org and N3370 are out of date. (isocpp as has dead links)

Assuming I know how to write a paper, and I know about this email list, etc=
, the actual submission step is emailing it to lwgchair? (and not lEwgchair=
 for example?)

Sent=C2=A0from=C2=A0my=C2=A0BlackBerry=C2=A0portable=C2=A0Babbage=C2=A0Devi=
ce
=C2=A0 Original Message =C2=A0
From: Matthew Woehlke
Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2016 2:04 PM
To: std-proposals@isocpp.org
Reply To: std-proposals@isocpp.org
Subject: [std-proposals] procedure for submitting *language* proposals?

What's the procedure for submitting a *language* (not library) proposal?
The only document I can find is [1], which makes scary noises about
being possibly out of date, and deals with library, not language
proposals. (And [2] lacks any instructions whatsoever, besides floating
ideas here first.)

[1] http://open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2012/n3370.html
[2] https://isocpp.org/std/submit-a-proposal

--=20
Matthew

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On 1/28/16 1:28 PM, Tony V E wrote:
> I was about to ask almost the same question. But the 'simpler' case -a LEWG paper.
>
> Both isocpp.org and N3370 are out of date. (isocpp as has dead links)
>
> Assuming I know how to write a paper, and I know about this email list, etc, the actual submission step is emailing it to lwgchair? (and not lEwgchair for example?)


I've got a much simpler problem.  I can't find an email address to
submit the proposal I posted on this list for Safe Integer Library.

Robert Ramey

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2016-01-28 22:28 GMT+01:00 Tony V E <tvaneerd@gmail.com>:
> I was about to ask almost the same question. But the 'simpler' case -a LEWG paper.
>
> Both isocpp.org and N3370 are out of date. (isocpp as has dead links)
>
> Assuming I know how to write a paper, and I know about this email list, etc, the actual submission step is emailing it to lwgchair? (and not lEwgchair for example?)

You first have to request a document number from lwgchair (unless you
write a revision paper and you already have a corresponding P-number).
To realize that you need to provide the following (tentative)
information:

(Planned) title of the proposal
(Planned) audience for the proposal (A non-empty list of working
groups/study groups)
Author name(s)

Once you got the proposal number, finish your paper, add the document
number including the revision number (which is R0 for the first
version), and send it back to lwgchair before the deadline.

Thanks,

- Daniel

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2016-01-28 22:34 GMT+01:00 Robert Ramey <ramey@rrsd.com>:
> I've got a much simpler problem.  I can't find an email address to submit
> the proposal I posted on this list for Safe Integer Library.

As described here,

https://isocpp.org/std/submit-a-proposal

you should send it to the lwgchair address. This address can be found
by navigating to

http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/

and send searching for the link named "C++ Standard Library Issues List":

http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/lwg-active.html

The header of the document provides the email address in the "Reply to" field.

Thanks,

- Daniel

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