Topic: Fwd: GUI
Author: "D. B." <db0451@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 09:22:05 +0100
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On Wed, Oct 12, 2016 at 9:45 PM, Ville Voutilainen <
ville.voutilainen@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > how "C++" UIs are transitioning to doing everything in HTML5, QML, XAML,
> or
> > so on with barely any C++ even in the application UI code.
>
> Ah, yes, thus creating UIs that are bad both in performance and in quality
> as
> far as bugs go.
+1! Personally, give me programmatic/procedural control of the GUI any day.
XML et al won't cut it most of the time, for various reasons.
> What C++ needs is a modern GUI library, standard or not,
> and such declarative UIs based on languages with next to no type checking
> aren't the solution.
>
Yeah, I call it gtkmm. ;-) It has a solid foundation, is adopting modern
C++ at a rapid pace, and - excuse the cliche - just works. Plus, markup
semantics are available for those who want it. And it's only going to get
more modern with GTK+ 4 having just branched to development.
(Shame how most of the internet tries to present GTK+ et al don't exist,
then. gtkmm especially! I know it's not got a 'real' C++ base, but the key
thing is it works, and very well.)
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=
=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><span class=3D"">On Wed, Oct 12=
, 2016 at 9:45 PM, Ville Voutilainen <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailt=
o:ville.voutilainen@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">ville.voutilainen@gmail.co=
m</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<span><br>
> how "C++" UIs are transitioning to doing everything in HTML5=
, QML, XAML, or<br>
> so on with barely any C++ even in the application UI code.<br>
<br>
</span>Ah, yes, thus creating UIs that are bad both in performance and in q=
uality as<br>
far as bugs go.</blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>+1! Personally, give=
me programmatic/procedural control of the GUI any day. XML et al won't=
cut it most of the time, for various reasons. <br></div><span class=3D""><=
div><br>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">What C++ needs is a mode=
rn GUI library, standard or not,<br>
and such declarative UIs based on languages with next to no type checking<b=
r>
aren't the solution.<br></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>Yeah, I=
call it <span style=3D"font-family:monospace,monospace">gtkmm</span>. ;-) =
It has a solid foundation, is adopting modern C++ at a rapid pace, and - ex=
cuse the cliche - just works. Plus, markup semantics are available for thos=
e who want it. And it's only going to get more modern with GTK+ 4 havin=
g just branched to development.<br>=C2=A0<br></div><div>(Shame how most of =
the internet tries to present GTK+ et al don't exist, then. <span style=
=3D"font-family:monospace,monospace">gtkmm </span>especially! I know it'=
;s not got a 'real' C++ base, but the key thing is it works, and ve=
ry well.)<br></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<p></p>
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.
Author: Thiago Macieira <thiago@macieira.org>
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 10:36:16 +0200
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Em quinta-feira, 13 de outubro de 2016, =C3=A0s 09:22:05 CEST, D. B. escrev=
eu:
> Yeah, I call it gtkmm. ;-) It has a solid foundation, is adopting modern
> C++ at a rapid pace, and - excuse the cliche - just works. Plus, markup
> semantics are available for those who want it. And it's only going to get
> more modern with GTK+ 4 having just branched to development.
>=20
> (Shame how most of the internet tries to present GTK+ et al don't exist,
> then. gtkmm especially! I know it's not got a 'real' C++ base, but the ke=
y
> thing is it works, and very well.)
We're going off-topic here... we can continue off-list if you want.
The problem with GTK+ and gtkmm is the same as the problem with QtWidgets a=
nd=20
that which I talked about before: right now, all of them are imperative=20
programming.=20
I know GTK+ developers are willing to break with the past, sacrificing thei=
r=20
existing user-base, in order to improve their functionality and API. So it'=
s=20
possible they'll transform their API so that it becomes declarative/retaine=
d-
mode. It remains to be seen.
Either way, GTK+/gtkmm is not a good foundation today, any more than Cairo =
is=20
(GTK+ 2 and 3 use Cairo).
--=20
Thiago Macieira - thiago (AT) macieira.info - thiago (AT) kde.org
Software Architect - Intel Open Source Technology Center
--=20
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.
Author: Dejan Milosavljevic <dmilos@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 14:42:02 +0200
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Just to put more oil on fire.
GUI imply existing of next libraries:
- image-vector manipulation,
- image-raster manipulation,
- retrieving user action from
mouse/keyboard/trackball/joystick/touch-screen/...
- Styles ( AKA skinning ) ( possibly/greatly imply XML library )
First two of them are already mentioned as 2D libraries.
I think that we can put more and more items on above list.
So real question is: What libraries we need to implement ( add to standard
) before creating standard GUI?
On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 10:36 AM, Thiago Macieira <thiago@macieira.org>
wrote:
> Em quinta-feira, 13 de outubro de 2016, =C3=A0s 09:22:05 CEST, D. B. escr=
eveu:
> > Yeah, I call it gtkmm. ;-) It has a solid foundation, is adopting moder=
n
> > C++ at a rapid pace, and - excuse the cliche - just works. Plus, markup
> > semantics are available for those who want it. And it's only going to g=
et
> > more modern with GTK+ 4 having just branched to development.
> >
> > (Shame how most of the internet tries to present GTK+ et al don't exist=
,
> > then. gtkmm especially! I know it's not got a 'real' C++ base, but the
> key
> > thing is it works, and very well.)
>
> We're going off-topic here... we can continue off-list if you want.
>
> The problem with GTK+ and gtkmm is the same as the problem with QtWidgets
> and
> that which I talked about before: right now, all of them are imperative
> programming.
>
> I know GTK+ developers are willing to break with the past, sacrificing
> their
> existing user-base, in order to improve their functionality and API. So
> it's
> possible they'll transform their API so that it becomes
> declarative/retained-
> mode. It remains to be seen.
>
> Either way, GTK+/gtkmm is not a good foundation today, any more than Cair=
o
> is
> (GTK+ 2 and 3 use Cairo).
>
> --
> Thiago Macieira - thiago (AT) macieira.info - thiago (AT) kde.org
> Software Architect - Intel Open Source Technology Center
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org.
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> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/
> isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/2050507.DOLSdCVWf1%40tjmaciei-mobl1.
>
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R9A%40mail.gmail.com.
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Just to put more oil on fire.</div><div><br>GUI imply=
existing of next libraries: <br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 - image-vector manipula=
tion,<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 - image-raster manipulation,<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 - retrieving user action from mouse/keyboard/trackball/joystick/touch-s=
creen/... <br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 - Styles (=C2=A0AKA skinning )=C2=A0( poss=
ibly/greatly imply XML library )<br><br></div><div>First two of them are al=
ready mentioned as 2D libraries.<br>I think that we can put more and more i=
tems=C2=A0on above list.</div><div><br>So=C2=A0real question is: What libra=
ries we need to implement ( add to standard ) before creating standard GUI?=
<br><br><br><br><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 10:36 AM, Thiago Macieira <span di=
r=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:thiago@macieira.org" target=3D"_blank">thia=
go@macieira.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><sp=
an>Em quinta-feira, 13 de outubro de 2016, =C3=A0s 09:22:05 CEST, D. B. esc=
reveu:<br>
> Yeah, I call it gtkmm. ;-) It has a solid foundation, is adopting mode=
rn<br>
> C++ at a rapid pace, and - excuse the cliche - just works. Plus, marku=
p<br>
> semantics are available for those who want it. And it's only going=
to get<br>
> more modern with GTK+ 4 having just branched to development.<br>
><br>
> (Shame how most of the internet tries to present GTK+ et al don't =
exist,<br>
> then. gtkmm especially! I know it's not got a 'real' C++ b=
ase, but the key<br>
> thing is it works, and very well.)<br>
<br>
</span>We're going off-topic here... we can continue off-list if you wa=
nt.<br>
<br>
The problem with GTK+ and gtkmm is the same as the problem with QtWidgets a=
nd<br>
that which I talked about before: right now, all of them are imperative<br>
programming.<br>
<br>
I know GTK+ developers are willing to break with the past, sacrificing thei=
r<br>
existing user-base, in order to improve their functionality and API. So it&=
#39;s<br>
possible they'll transform their API so that it becomes declarative/ret=
ained-<br>
mode. It remains to be seen.<br>
<br>
Either way, GTK+/gtkmm is not a good foundation today, any more than Cairo =
is<br>
(GTK+ 2 and 3 use Cairo).<br>
<span><br>
--<br>
Thiago Macieira - thiago (AT) <a href=3D"http://macieira.info" target=3D"_b=
lank" rel=3D"noreferrer">macieira.info</a> - thiago (AT) <a href=3D"http://=
kde.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">kde.org</a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Software Architect - Intel Open Source Technology Center<br>
<br>
</span><span>--<br>
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To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:std-proposals@isocpp=
..org">std-proposals@isocpp.org</a>.<br>
</span>To view this discussion on the web visit <a href=3D"https://groups.g=
oogle.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/2050507.DOLSdCVWf1%40tjmaciei-=
mobl1" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">https://groups.google.com/a/<wb=
r>isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-<wbr>proposals/2050507.DOLSdCVWf1%<wbr>40tjmaciei-=
mobl1</a>.<br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
<p></p>
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.
Author: FrankHB1989 <frankhb1989@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 04:17:11 -0700 (PDT)
Raw View
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=E5=9C=A8 2016=E5=B9=B410=E6=9C=8813=E6=97=A5=E6=98=9F=E6=9C=9F=E5=9B=9B UT=
C+8=E4=B8=8B=E5=8D=888:42:05=EF=BC=8CDejan Milosavljevic=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=
=EF=BC=9A
>
> Just to put more oil on fire.
>
> GUI imply existing of next libraries:=20
> - image-vector manipulation,
> - image-raster manipulation,
> - retrieving user action from=20
> mouse/keyboard/trackball/joystick/touch-screen/...=20
> - Styles ( AKA skinning ) ( possibly/greatly imply XML library )
>
> First two of them are already mentioned as 2D libraries.
> I think that we can put more and more items on above list.
>
> So real question is: What libraries we need to implement ( add to standar=
d=20
> ) before creating standard GUI?
>
>
> Input device manipulation should come first.=20
The last can be based on some low level GUI facilities.=20
>
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 10:36 AM, Thiago Macieira <thi...@macieira.org=20
> <javascript:>> wrote:
>
>> Em quinta-feira, 13 de outubro de 2016, =C3=A0s 09:22:05 CEST, D. B. esc=
reveu:
>> > Yeah, I call it gtkmm. ;-) It has a solid foundation, is adopting mode=
rn
>> > C++ at a rapid pace, and - excuse the cliche - just works. Plus, marku=
p
>> > semantics are available for those who want it. And it's only going to=
=20
>> get
>> > more modern with GTK+ 4 having just branched to development.
>> >
>> > (Shame how most of the internet tries to present GTK+ et al don't exis=
t,
>> > then. gtkmm especially! I know it's not got a 'real' C++ base, but the=
=20
>> key
>> > thing is it works, and very well.)
>>
>> We're going off-topic here... we can continue off-list if you want.
>>
>> The problem with GTK+ and gtkmm is the same as the problem with QtWidget=
s=20
>> and
>> that which I talked about before: right now, all of them are imperative
>> programming.
>>
>> I know GTK+ developers are willing to break with the past, sacrificing=
=20
>> their
>> existing user-base, in order to improve their functionality and API. So=
=20
>> it's
>> possible they'll transform their API so that it becomes=20
>> declarative/retained-
>> mode. It remains to be seen.
>>
>> Either way, GTK+/gtkmm is not a good foundation today, any more than=20
>> Cairo is
>> (GTK+ 2 and 3 use Cairo).
>>
>> --
>> Thiago Macieira - thiago (AT) macieira.info - thiago (AT) kde.org
>> Software Architect - Intel Open Source Technology Center
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group=
s=20
>> "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a=
n=20
>> email to std-proposal...@isocpp.org <javascript:>.
>> To post to this group, send email to std-pr...@isocpp.org <javascript:>.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit=20
>> https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/2050507.DOL=
SdCVWf1%40tjmaciei-mobl1
>> .
>>
>
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><br>=E5=9C=A8 2016=E5=B9=B410=E6=9C=8813=E6=97=A5=E6=
=98=9F=E6=9C=9F=E5=9B=9B UTC+8=E4=B8=8B=E5=8D=888:42:05=EF=BC=8CDejan Milos=
avljevic=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: =
1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Just to put more oil on fire.</div><div><br>GUI=
imply existing of next libraries: <br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 - image-vector ma=
nipulation,<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 - image-raster manipulation,<br>=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 - retrieving user action from mouse/keyboard/trackball/<wbr>joyst=
ick/touch-screen/... <br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 - Styles (=C2=A0AKA skinning )=
=C2=A0( possibly/greatly imply XML library )<br><br></div><div>First two of=
them are already mentioned as 2D libraries.<br>I think that we can put mor=
e and more items=C2=A0on above list.</div><div><br>So=C2=A0real question is=
: What libraries we need to implement ( add to standard ) before creating s=
tandard GUI?<br><br><br></div></div></blockquote><div>Input device manipula=
tion should come first. <br></div><div>The last can be based on some low le=
vel GUI facilities. <br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">=
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br><br></div></div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quot=
e">On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 10:36 AM, Thiago Macieira <span dir=3D"ltr"><=
<a href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto=3D"_-o-7Ses=
AQAJ" rel=3D"nofollow" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D'javascript:';ret=
urn true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D'javascript:';return true;">thi..=
..@macieira.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><spa=
n>Em quinta-feira, 13 de outubro de 2016, =C3=A0s 09:22:05 CEST, D. B. escr=
eveu:<br>
> Yeah, I call it gtkmm. ;-) It has a solid foundation, is adopting mode=
rn<br>
> C++ at a rapid pace, and - excuse the cliche - just works. Plus, marku=
p<br>
> semantics are available for those who want it. And it's only going=
to get<br>
> more modern with GTK+ 4 having just branched to development.<br>
><br>
> (Shame how most of the internet tries to present GTK+ et al don't =
exist,<br>
> then. gtkmm especially! I know it's not got a 'real' C++ b=
ase, but the key<br>
> thing is it works, and very well.)<br>
<br>
</span>We're going off-topic here... we can continue off-list if you wa=
nt.<br>
<br>
The problem with GTK+ and gtkmm is the same as the problem with QtWidgets a=
nd<br>
that which I talked about before: right now, all of them are imperative<br>
programming.<br>
<br>
I know GTK+ developers are willing to break with the past, sacrificing thei=
r<br>
existing user-base, in order to improve their functionality and API. So it&=
#39;s<br>
possible they'll transform their API so that it becomes declarative/ret=
ained-<br>
mode. It remains to be seen.<br>
<br>
Either way, GTK+/gtkmm is not a good foundation today, any more than Cairo =
is<br>
(GTK+ 2 and 3 use Cairo).<br>
<span><br>
--<br>
Thiago Macieira - thiago (AT) <a href=3D"http://macieira.info" rel=3D"nofol=
low" target=3D"_blank" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D'http://www.google.co=
m/url?q\x3dhttp%3A%2F%2Fmacieira.info\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQ=
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6sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNEswDUBNCNanbu7euhqLn_62FW8ag';return true;">=
macieira.info</a> - thiago (AT) <a href=3D"http://kde.org" rel=3D"nofollow"=
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g\x3dAFQjCNHGRJdo5_JYG1DowztwAHAKs80XSA';return true;">kde.org</a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Software Architect - Intel Open Source Technology Center<br>
<br>
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</blockquote></div><br></div>
</blockquote></div>
<p></p>
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------=_Part_1122_491087675.1476443831541--
------=_Part_1121_2138700628.1476443831540--
.
Author: "D. B." <db0451@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 08:58:11 +0100
Raw View
--001a11435564005147053f0af0b4
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 9:36 AM, Thiago Macieira <thiago@macieira.org>
wrote:
>
> We're going off-topic here... we can continue off-list if you want.
>
> The problem with GTK+ and gtkmm is the same as the problem with QtWidgets
> and
> that which I talked about before: right now, all of them are imperative
> programming.
>
> I know GTK+ developers are willing to break with the past, sacrificing
> their
> existing user-base, in order to improve their functionality and API. So
> it's
> possible they'll transform their API so that it becomes
> declarative/retained-
> mode. It remains to be seen.
>
> Either way, GTK+/gtkmm is not a good foundation today, any more than Cairo
> is
> (GTK+ 2 and 3 use Cairo).
>
Yeah, probably OT. I just want to point out for other readers, though, that
this isn't a reason to avoid these frameworks. Plans are in motion to get
rid of Cairo from GTK+ et al - the GTK+ Scene Graph Kit (GSK). The devs are
very aware of the limitations of Cairo and how it doesn't suit their needs
in a modern landscape. See e.g.
https://www.bassi.io/articles/2014/07/29/guadec-2014-gsk/
As an observer, I think i's very likely that GTK+ 4 will use GSK, in
addition to being a lot more modern in many other ways (including
streamlining by removing deprecated code, as can be seen in the WIP commits)
/OT ;-)
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--001a11435564005147053f0af0b4
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 9:36 AM, Thiago Macieira <span dir=3D"ltr"><=
<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:thiago@macieira.org">thiago@macieira.or=
g</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote=
"><span class=3D"gmail-"><br>
</span>We're going off-topic here... we can continue off-list if you wa=
nt.<br>
<br>
The problem with GTK+ and gtkmm is the same as the problem with QtWidgets a=
nd<br>
that which I talked about before: right now, all of them are imperative<br>
programming.<br>
<br>
I know GTK+ developers are willing to break with the past, sacrificing thei=
r<br>
existing user-base, in order to improve their functionality and API. So it&=
#39;s<br>
possible they'll transform their API so that it becomes declarative/ret=
ained-<br>
mode. It remains to be seen.<br>
<br>
Either way, GTK+/gtkmm is not a good foundation today, any more than Cairo =
is<br>
(GTK+ 2 and 3 use Cairo).<br>
<span class=3D"gmail-"></span></blockquote><div><br><br></div><div>Yeah, pr=
obably OT. I just want to point out for other readers, though, that this is=
n't a reason to avoid these frameworks. Plans are in motion to get rid =
of Cairo from GTK+ et al - the GTK+ Scene Graph Kit (GSK). The devs are ver=
y aware of the limitations of Cairo and how it doesn't suit their needs=
in a modern landscape. See e.g. <a href=3D"https://www.bassi.io/articles/2=
014/07/29/guadec-2014-gsk/">https://www.bassi.io/articles/2014/07/29/guadec=
-2014-gsk/</a><br><br></div><div>As an observer, I think i's very likel=
y that GTK+ 4 will use GSK, in addition to being a lot more modern in many =
other ways (including streamlining by removing deprecated code, as can be s=
een in the WIP commits)<br><br></div><div>/OT ;-)<br></div></div></div></di=
v>
<p></p>
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MgbpTyyk81kt_TfxegBKHDOHFA4FL5pYUQ%40mail.gmail.com</a>.<br />
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