Topic: Question about Networking, Ranges, Modules and Concepts
Author: Osman Zakir <osmanzakir9@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 05:22:06 -0800 (PST)
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I need to ask: What are the plans of the committee concerning the
Networking, Modules, Ranges and Concepts TS's? I originally wanted to
asking about Coroutines as well, but then I read that thread titled
"coroutines have odd interaction with std algorithms" and decided against
it since it seems like there are obviously some problems with the
Coroutines TS right now - hopefully we'll get one of the better versions
Nicol talked about when it's all said and done.
If it'd be okay to ask this in this same thread: I want to ask if it's
possible for a good HTTP server and client library to be added to the
standard. Once the Networking TS and the Beast library are standardized
(they hopefully will be, soon-ish), it'd be good if we also got an HTTP
server and client library standardized either at the same time or
afterwards. This is like a pseudo-proposal right now. I'm not sure if I
can stick with the whole process of having an actual proposal standardized,
after all.
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>I need to ask: What are the plans of the committee co=
ncerning the Networking, Modules, Ranges and Concepts TS's?=C2=A0=C2=A0=
<span style=3D"display: inline !important; float: none; background-color: t=
ransparent; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: "Arial","He=
lvetica",sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant=
: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align:=
left; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webk=
it-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;">I origi=
nally wanted to asking about Coroutines as well, but then I read that threa=
d titled "coroutines have odd interaction with std algorithms" an=
d decided against it since it seems like there are obviously some problems =
with the Coroutines TS right now - hopefully we'll get one of the bette=
r versions Nicol talked about when it's all said and done.</span></div>=
<div><span style=3D"display: inline !important; float: none; background-col=
or: transparent; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: "Arial",&qu=
ot;Helvetica",sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-va=
riant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-a=
lign: left; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"><b=
r></span></div><div><span style=3D"display: inline !important; float: none;=
background-color: transparent; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: "=
Arial","Helvetica",sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orp=
hans: 2; text-align: left; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-tr=
ansform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-sp=
acing: 0px;">If it'd be okay to ask this in this same thread: I want to=
ask if it's possible for a good HTTP server and client library to be a=
dded to the standard.=C2=A0 Once the Networking TS and the Beast library ar=
e standardized (they hopefully will be, soon-ish), it'd be good if we a=
lso got an HTTP server and client library standardized either at the same t=
ime or afterwards.=C2=A0 This is like a pseudo-proposal right now.=C2=A0 I&=
#39;m not sure if I can stick with the whole process of having an actual pr=
oposal standardized, after all.</span><br></div></div>
<p></p>
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.
Author: Ville Voutilainen <ville.voutilainen@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 15:41:24 +0200
Raw View
On 18 December 2017 at 15:22, Osman Zakir <osmanzakir9@gmail.com> wrote:
> I need to ask: What are the plans of the committee concerning the
> Networking, Modules, Ranges and Concepts TS's? I originally wanted to
> asking about Coroutines as well, but then I read that thread titled
> "coroutines have odd interaction with std algorithms" and decided against it
> since it seems like there are obviously some problems with the Coroutines TS
> right now - hopefully we'll get one of the better versions Nicol talked
> about when it's all said and done.
Concepts have been merged. Ranges is a merge candidate, maybe for C++20, maybe
later. Same goes for Networking and Modules, although the Modules TS
is not published yet
so it's going to require minor miracles to have Modules in C++20.
> If it'd be okay to ask this in this same thread: I want to ask if it's
> possible for a good HTTP server and client library to be added to the
> standard. Once the Networking TS and the Beast library are standardized
> (they hopefully will be, soon-ish), it'd be good if we also got an HTTP
> server and client library standardized either at the same time or
> afterwards. This is like a pseudo-proposal right now. I'm not sure if I
> can stick with the whole process of having an actual proposal standardized,
> after all.
Possible, sure. How likely that is is anyone's guess, but I would
recommend trying.
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.
Author: Osman Zakir <osmanzakir9@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 10:15:40 -0800 (PST)
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On Monday, December 18, 2017 at 6:41:26 PM UTC+5, Ville Voutilainen wrote:
>
> On 18 December 2017 at 15:22, Osman Zakir <osman...@gmail.com
> <javascript:>> wrote:
> > I need to ask: What are the plans of the committee concerning the
> > Networking, Modules, Ranges and Concepts TS's? I originally wanted to
> > asking about Coroutines as well, but then I read that thread titled
> > "coroutines have odd interaction with std algorithms" and decided
> against it
> > since it seems like there are obviously some problems with the
> Coroutines TS
> > right now - hopefully we'll get one of the better versions Nicol talked
> > about when it's all said and done.
>
> Concepts have been merged. Ranges is a merge candidate, maybe for C++20,
> maybe
> later. Same goes for Networking and Modules, although the Modules TS
> is not published yet
> so it's going to require minor miracles to have Modules in C++20.
>
> > If it'd be okay to ask this in this same thread: I want to ask if it's
> > possible for a good HTTP server and client library to be added to the
> > standard. Once the Networking TS and the Beast library are standardized
> > (they hopefully will be, soon-ish), it'd be good if we also got an HTTP
> > server and client library standardized either at the same time or
> > afterwards. This is like a pseudo-proposal right now. I'm not sure if
> I
> > can stick with the whole process of having an actual proposal
> standardized,
> > after all.
>
> Possible, sure. How likely that is is anyone's guess, but I would
> recommend trying.
>
There's a server framework on the Beast library GitHub page that one could
try extending to include a client. How about that?
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<div dir=3D"ltr">On Monday, December 18, 2017 at 6:41:26 PM UTC+5, Ville Vo=
utilainen wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin=
-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">On 18 December=
2017 at 15:22, Osman Zakir <<a onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D'javascri=
pt:';return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D'javascript:';return =
true;" href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" gdf-obfuscat=
ed-mailto=3D"okSbD90QAgAJ">osman...@gmail.com</a>> wrote:
<br>> I need to ask: What are the plans of the committee concerning the
<br>> Networking, Modules, Ranges and Concepts TS's? =C2=A0I origina=
lly wanted to
<br>> asking about Coroutines as well, but then I read that thread title=
d
<br>> "coroutines have odd interaction with std algorithms" an=
d decided against it
<br>> since it seems like there are obviously some problems with the Cor=
outines TS
<br>> right now - hopefully we'll get one of the better versions Nic=
ol talked
<br>> about when it's all said and done.
<br>
<br>Concepts have been merged. Ranges is a merge candidate, maybe for C++20=
, maybe
<br>later. Same goes for Networking and Modules, although the Modules TS
<br>is not published yet
<br>so it's going to require minor miracles to have Modules in C++20.
<br>
<br>> If it'd be okay to ask this in this same thread: I want to ask=
if it's
<br>> possible for a good HTTP server and client library to be added to =
the
<br>> standard. =C2=A0Once the Networking TS and the Beast library are s=
tandardized
<br>> (they hopefully will be, soon-ish), it'd be good if we also go=
t an HTTP
<br>> server and client library standardized either at the same time or
<br>> afterwards. =C2=A0This is like a pseudo-proposal right now. =C2=A0=
I'm not sure if I
<br>> can stick with the whole process of having an actual proposal stan=
dardized,
<br>> after all.
<br>
<br>Possible, sure. How likely that is is anyone's guess, but I would
<br>recommend trying.
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>There's a server framework on the =
Beast library GitHub page that one could try extending to include a client.=
=C2=A0 How about that?=C2=A0</div></div>
<p></p>
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.
Author: Osman Zakir <osmanzakir9@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 10:18:58 -0800 (PST)
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I'll give a link to the server framework I mentioned. It's not actually
the Beast library GitHub page. Here:
https://github.com/fffaraz/awesome-cpp/issues/358
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>I'll give a link to the server framework I mentio=
ned.=C2=A0 It's not actually the Beast library GitHub page.=C2=A0 Here:=
<a href=3D"https://github.com/fffaraz/awesome-cpp/issues/358">https://gith=
ub.com/fffaraz/awesome-cpp/issues/358</a></div></div>
<p></p>
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%40isocpp.org</a>.<br />
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.
Author: Osman Zakir <osmanzakir9@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 15:11:38 -0800 (PST)
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On Monday, December 18, 2017 at 6:41:26 PM UTC+5, Ville Voutilainen wrote:
>
> On 18 December 2017 at 15:22, Osman Zakir <osman...@gmail.com
> <javascript:>> wrote:
> > I need to ask: What are the plans of the committee concerning the
> > Networking, Modules, Ranges and Concepts TS's? I originally wanted to
> > asking about Coroutines as well, but then I read that thread titled
> > "coroutines have odd interaction with std algorithms" and decided
> against it
> > since it seems like there are obviously some problems with the
> Coroutines TS
> > right now - hopefully we'll get one of the better versions Nicol talked
> > about when it's all said and done.
>
> Concepts have been merged. Ranges is a merge candidate, maybe for C++20,
> maybe
> later. Same goes for Networking and Modules, although the Modules TS
> is not published yet
> so it's going to require minor miracles to have Modules in C++20.
>
> > If it'd be okay to ask this in this same thread: I want to ask if it's
> > possible for a good HTTP server and client library to be added to the
> > standard. Once the Networking TS and the Beast library are standardized
> > (they hopefully will be, soon-ish), it'd be good if we also got an HTTP
> > server and client library standardized either at the same time or
> > afterwards. This is like a pseudo-proposal right now. I'm not sure if
> I
> > can stick with the whole process of having an actual proposal
> standardized,
> > after all.
>
> Possible, sure. How likely that is is anyone's guess, but I would
> recommend trying.
>
Regarding what you said about the Networking TS: Do you mean it's a "maybe
in C++20, maybe later" thing like Ranges? Or do you mean it's going to be
in C++20? I heard it was already approved for publication. What stages
are the Networking and Ranges TS's, respectively, in right now? If it's
okay to ask.
--
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<div dir=3D"ltr">On Monday, December 18, 2017 at 6:41:26 PM UTC+5, Ville Vo=
utilainen wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin=
-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">On 18 December=
2017 at 15:22, Osman Zakir <<a onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D'javascri=
pt:';return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D'javascript:';return =
true;" href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" gdf-obfuscat=
ed-mailto=3D"okSbD90QAgAJ">osman...@gmail.com</a>> wrote:
<br>> I need to ask: What are the plans of the committee concerning the
<br>> Networking, Modules, Ranges and Concepts TS's? =C2=A0I origina=
lly wanted to
<br>> asking about Coroutines as well, but then I read that thread title=
d
<br>> "coroutines have odd interaction with std algorithms" an=
d decided against it
<br>> since it seems like there are obviously some problems with the Cor=
outines TS
<br>> right now - hopefully we'll get one of the better versions Nic=
ol talked
<br>> about when it's all said and done.
<br>
<br>Concepts have been merged. Ranges is a merge candidate, maybe for C++20=
, maybe
<br>later. Same goes for Networking and Modules, although the Modules TS
<br>is not published yet
<br>so it's going to require minor miracles to have Modules in C++20.
<br>
<br>> If it'd be okay to ask this in this same thread: I want to ask=
if it's
<br>> possible for a good HTTP server and client library to be added to =
the
<br>> standard. =C2=A0Once the Networking TS and the Beast library are s=
tandardized
<br>> (they hopefully will be, soon-ish), it'd be good if we also go=
t an HTTP
<br>> server and client library standardized either at the same time or
<br>> afterwards. =C2=A0This is like a pseudo-proposal right now. =C2=A0=
I'm not sure if I
<br>> can stick with the whole process of having an actual proposal stan=
dardized,
<br>> after all.
<br>
<br>Possible, sure. How likely that is is anyone's guess, but I would
<br>recommend trying.
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Regarding what you said about the Netw=
orking TS: Do you mean it's a "maybe in C++20, maybe later" t=
hing like Ranges?=C2=A0 Or do you mean it's going to be in C++20?=C2=A0=
I heard it was already approved for publication.=C2=A0 What stages are the=
Networking and Ranges TS's, respectively, in right now?=C2=A0 If it=
9;s okay to ask. =C2=A0</div></div>
<p></p>
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%40isocpp.org</a>.<br />
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.
Author: Nicol Bolas <jmckesson@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 15:27:17 -0800 (PST)
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On Monday, December 18, 2017 at 6:11:38 PM UTC-5, Osman Zakir wrote:
>
> On Monday, December 18, 2017 at 6:41:26 PM UTC+5, Ville Voutilainen wrote:
>>
>> On 18 December 2017 at 15:22, Osman Zakir <osman...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > I need to ask: What are the plans of the committee concerning the
>> > Networking, Modules, Ranges and Concepts TS's? I originally wanted to
>> > asking about Coroutines as well, but then I read that thread titled
>> > "coroutines have odd interaction with std algorithms" and decided
>> against it
>> > since it seems like there are obviously some problems with the
>> Coroutines TS
>> > right now - hopefully we'll get one of the better versions Nicol talked
>> > about when it's all said and done.
>>
>> Concepts have been merged. Ranges is a merge candidate, maybe for C++20,
>> maybe
>> later. Same goes for Networking and Modules, although the Modules TS
>> is not published yet
>> so it's going to require minor miracles to have Modules in C++20.
>>
>> > If it'd be okay to ask this in this same thread: I want to ask if it's
>> > possible for a good HTTP server and client library to be added to the
>> > standard. Once the Networking TS and the Beast library are
>> standardized
>> > (they hopefully will be, soon-ish), it'd be good if we also got an HTTP
>> > server and client library standardized either at the same time or
>> > afterwards. This is like a pseudo-proposal right now. I'm not sure if
>> I
>> > can stick with the whole process of having an actual proposal
>> standardized,
>> > after all.
>>
>> Possible, sure. How likely that is is anyone's guess, but I would
>> recommend trying.
>>
>
> Regarding what you said about the Networking TS: Do you mean it's a "maybe
> in C++20, maybe later" thing like Ranges? Or do you mean it's going to be
> in C++20? I heard it was already approved for publication.
>
The TS is approved for publication. That doesn't mean it's part of C++20;
it just means that its a Technical Specification.
What stages are the Networking and Ranges TS's, respectively, in right
> now? If it's okay to ask.
>
They're published Technical Specifications.
--
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><br>On Monday, December 18, 2017 at 6:11:38 PM UTC-5, =
Osman Zakir wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;marg=
in-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"=
ltr">On Monday, December 18, 2017 at 6:41:26 PM UTC+5, Ville Voutilainen wr=
ote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;b=
order-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">On 18 December 2017 at 15:22, O=
sman Zakir <<a rel=3D"nofollow">osman...@gmail.com</a>> wrote:
<br>> I need to ask: What are the plans of the committee concerning the
<br>> Networking, Modules, Ranges and Concepts TS's? =C2=A0I origina=
lly wanted to
<br>> asking about Coroutines as well, but then I read that thread title=
d
<br>> "coroutines have odd interaction with std algorithms" an=
d decided against it
<br>> since it seems like there are obviously some problems with the Cor=
outines TS
<br>> right now - hopefully we'll get one of the better versions Nic=
ol talked
<br>> about when it's all said and done.
<br>
<br>Concepts have been merged. Ranges is a merge candidate, maybe for C++20=
, maybe
<br>later. Same goes for Networking and Modules, although the Modules TS
<br>is not published yet
<br>so it's going to require minor miracles to have Modules in C++20.
<br>
<br>> If it'd be okay to ask this in this same thread: I want to ask=
if it's
<br>> possible for a good HTTP server and client library to be added to =
the
<br>> standard. =C2=A0Once the Networking TS and the Beast library are s=
tandardized
<br>> (they hopefully will be, soon-ish), it'd be good if we also go=
t an HTTP
<br>> server and client library standardized either at the same time or
<br>> afterwards. =C2=A0This is like a pseudo-proposal right now. =C2=A0=
I'm not sure if I
<br>> can stick with the whole process of having an actual proposal stan=
dardized,
<br>> after all.
<br>
<br>Possible, sure. How likely that is is anyone's guess, but I would
<br>recommend trying.
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Regarding what you said about the Netw=
orking TS: Do you mean it's a "maybe in C++20, maybe later" t=
hing like Ranges?=C2=A0 Or do you mean it's going to be in C++20?=C2=A0=
I heard it was already approved for publication.</div></div></blockquote><=
div><br></div><div>The TS is approved for publication. That doesn't mea=
n it's part of C++20; it just means that its a Technical Specification.=
</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;m=
argin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div>What stages are the Networking and Ranges TS's, respectiv=
ely, in right now?=C2=A0 If it's okay to ask.</div></div></blockquote><=
div><br></div><div>They're published Technical Specifications.</div></d=
iv>
<p></p>
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.
Author: Ville Voutilainen <ville.voutilainen@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2017 02:08:07 +0200
Raw View
On 19 December 2017 at 01:11, Osman Zakir <osmanzakir9@gmail.com> wrote:
> Regarding what you said about the Networking TS: Do you mean it's a "maybe
> in C++20, maybe later" thing like Ranges? Or do you mean it's going to be
Yes.
> in C++20? I heard it was already approved for publication. What stages are
There are no guarantees that either Networking or Ranges will make it
into C++20,
but there's active encouragement to work towards those goals, and
Ranges complements
a major feature that has already been approved into the C++20 working
draft (Concepts).
> the Networking and Ranges TS's, respectively, in right now? If it's okay to
> ask.
They have been published, as was already stated. See
https://isocpp.org/std/status
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.
Author: Osman Zakir <osmanzakir9@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 16:41:35 -0800 (PST)
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On Tuesday, December 19, 2017 at 5:08:09 AM UTC+5, Ville Voutilainen wrote:
>
> On 19 December 2017 at 01:11, Osman Zakir <osman...@gmail.com
> <javascript:>> wrote:
> > Regarding what you said about the Networking TS: Do you mean it's a
> "maybe
> > in C++20, maybe later" thing like Ranges? Or do you mean it's going to
> be
>
> Yes.
>
> > in C++20? I heard it was already approved for publication. What stages
> are
>
> There are no guarantees that either Networking or Ranges will make it
> into C++20,
> but there's active encouragement to work towards those goals, and
> Ranges complements
> a major feature that has already been approved into the C++20 working
> draft (Concepts).
>
> > the Networking and Ranges TS's, respectively, in right now? If it's
> okay to
> > ask.
>
> They have been published, as was already stated. See
> https://isocpp.org/std/status
>
I don't understand that status graph thing that well. Like, I can tell
what the stuff with the arrows means, but nothing aside from that.
Anyway, I'm happy that Networking and Ranges are being actively encouraged
for standardization, but I hope it happens ASAP (I don't mean to rush
anyone, though).
And this is probably a dumb question, but: what features and additions does
the language need, direct support for web development or no, that would
encourage it to be used for that more than it is now? It seems like people
already use it for that when they need the performance and speed boost, but
opt to use scripting languages when that is not needed since a lot of the
things they want to be able to are harder in C++ and it's generally thought
of as a waste of time. So really, what I'm asking is: What does C++ need
to be able to do for it not be thought of as a waste of time, so that web
developers will use it more? I'd really like for this to happen soon if
possible (and if the standards committee is also in support of it).
--
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<div dir=3D"ltr">On Tuesday, December 19, 2017 at 5:08:09 AM UTC+5, Ville V=
outilainen wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margi=
n-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">On 19 Decembe=
r 2017 at 01:11, Osman Zakir <<a onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D'javascr=
ipt:';return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D'javascript:';return=
true;" href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" gdf-obfusca=
ted-mailto=3D"lORSNRAzAgAJ">osman...@gmail.com</a>> wrote:
<br>> Regarding what you said about the Networking TS: Do you mean it=
9;s a "maybe
<br>> in C++20, maybe later" thing like Ranges? =C2=A0Or do you mea=
n it's going to be
<br>
<br>Yes.
<br>
<br>> in C++20? =C2=A0I heard it was already approved for publication. =
=C2=A0What stages are
<br>
<br>There are no guarantees that either Networking or Ranges will make it
<br>into C++20,
<br>but there's active encouragement to work towards those goals, and
<br>Ranges complements
<br>a major feature that has already been approved into the C++20 working
<br>draft (Concepts).
<br>
<br>> the Networking and Ranges TS's, respectively, in right now? =
=C2=A0If it's okay to
<br>> ask.
<br>
<br>They have been published, as was already stated. See
<br><a onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D'https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttp=
s%3A%2F%2Fisocpp.org%2Fstd%2Fstatus\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjC=
NGHUfs0r7sSi27RtCq611guy-UQ3g';return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D=
9;https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fisocpp.org%2Fstd%2Fstatus\x=
26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNGHUfs0r7sSi27RtCq611guy-UQ3g';re=
turn true;" href=3D"https://isocpp.org/std/status" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D=
"nofollow">https://isocpp.org/std/status</a>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I don't understand that status gra=
ph thing that well.=C2=A0 Like, I can tell what the stuff with the arrows m=
eans, but nothing aside from that. =C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Anyway, =
I'm happy that Networking and Ranges are being actively encouraged for =
standardization, but I hope it happens ASAP (I don't mean to rush anyon=
e, though). =C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>And this is probably a dumb que=
stion, but: what features and additions does the language need, direct supp=
ort for web development or no, that would encourage it to be used for that =
more than it is now?=C2=A0 It seems like people already use it for that whe=
n they need the performance and speed boost, but opt to use scripting langu=
ages when that is not needed since a lot of the things they want to be able=
to are harder in C++ and it's generally thought of as a waste of time.=
=C2=A0 So really, what I'm asking is: What does C++ need to be able to =
do for it not be thought of as a waste of time, so that web developers will=
use it more?=C2=A0 I'd really like for this to happen soon if possible=
(and if the standards committee is also in support of it). =C2=A0=C2=A0</d=
iv></div>
<p></p>
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.
Author: Nicol Bolas <jmckesson@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 16:48:34 -0800 (PST)
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On Monday, December 18, 2017 at 7:41:36 PM UTC-5, Osman Zakir wrote:
>
> On Tuesday, December 19, 2017 at 5:08:09 AM UTC+5, Ville Voutilainen wrote:
>>
>> On 19 December 2017 at 01:11, Osman Zakir <osman...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Regarding what you said about the Networking TS: Do you mean it's a
>> "maybe
>> > in C++20, maybe later" thing like Ranges? Or do you mean it's going to
>> be
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>> > in C++20? I heard it was already approved for publication. What
>> stages are
>>
>> There are no guarantees that either Networking or Ranges will make it
>> into C++20,
>> but there's active encouragement to work towards those goals, and
>> Ranges complements
>> a major feature that has already been approved into the C++20 working
>> draft (Concepts).
>>
>> > the Networking and Ranges TS's, respectively, in right now? If it's
>> okay to
>> > ask.
>>
>> They have been published, as was already stated. See
>> https://isocpp.org/std/status
>>
>
> I don't understand that status graph thing that well. Like, I can tell
> what the stuff with the arrows means, but nothing aside from that.
>
> Anyway, I'm happy that Networking and Ranges are being actively encouraged
> for standardization, but I hope it happens ASAP (I don't mean to rush
> anyone, though).
>
> And this is probably a dumb question, but: what features and additions
> does the language need, direct support for web development or no, that
> would encourage it to be used for that more than it is now? It seems like
> people already use it for that when they need the performance and speed
> boost, but opt to use scripting languages when that is not needed since a
> lot of the things they want to be able to are harder in C++ and it's
> generally thought of as a waste of time. So really, what I'm asking is:
> What does C++ need to be able to do for it not be thought of as a waste of
> time, so that web developers will use it more? I'd really like for this to
> happen soon if possible (and if the standards committee is also in support
> of it).
>
I don't see how this "make C++ useful for web development" thing is going
to be anything other than a race C++ can *never* win. C++ gets updates ever
3 years. The web changes much faster than that. There's no effective way
for C++ to keep up in such an environment. Not so long as it advances
through ISO standardization.
C++ is good at being what it currently is. We should work on making it
better at that. We shouldn't feel like C++ is a lesser language just
because it's not used for web development.
--
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<div dir=3D"ltr">On Monday, December 18, 2017 at 7:41:36 PM UTC-5, Osman Za=
kir wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left:=
0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr">On =
Tuesday, December 19, 2017 at 5:08:09 AM UTC+5, Ville Voutilainen wrote:<bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-l=
eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">On 19 December 2017 at 01:11, Osman Za=
kir <<a rel=3D"nofollow">osman...@gmail.com</a>> wrote:
<br>> Regarding what you said about the Networking TS: Do you mean it=
9;s a "maybe
<br>> in C++20, maybe later" thing like Ranges? =C2=A0Or do you mea=
n it's going to be
<br>
<br>Yes.
<br>
<br>> in C++20? =C2=A0I heard it was already approved for publication. =
=C2=A0What stages are
<br>
<br>There are no guarantees that either Networking or Ranges will make it
<br>into C++20,
<br>but there's active encouragement to work towards those goals, and
<br>Ranges complements
<br>a major feature that has already been approved into the C++20 working
<br>draft (Concepts).
<br>
<br>> the Networking and Ranges TS's, respectively, in right now? =
=C2=A0If it's okay to
<br>> ask.
<br>
<br>They have been published, as was already stated. See
<br><a onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D'https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttp=
s%3A%2F%2Fisocpp.org%2Fstd%2Fstatus\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjC=
NGHUfs0r7sSi27RtCq611guy-UQ3g';return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D=
9;https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fisocpp.org%2Fstd%2Fstatus\x=
26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNGHUfs0r7sSi27RtCq611guy-UQ3g';re=
turn true;" href=3D"https://isocpp.org/std/status" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D=
"nofollow">https://isocpp.org/std/status</a>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I don't understand that status gra=
ph thing that well.=C2=A0 Like, I can tell what the stuff with the arrows m=
eans, but nothing aside from that. =C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Anyway, =
I'm happy that Networking and Ranges are being actively encouraged for =
standardization, but I hope it happens ASAP (I don't mean to rush anyon=
e, though). =C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>And this is probably a dumb que=
stion, but: what features and additions does the language need, direct supp=
ort for web development or no, that would encourage it to be used for that =
more than it is now?=C2=A0 It seems like people already use it for that whe=
n they need the performance and speed boost, but opt to use scripting langu=
ages when that is not needed since a lot of the things they want to be able=
to are harder in C++ and it's generally thought of as a waste of time.=
=C2=A0 So really, what I'm asking is: What does C++ need to be able to =
do for it not be thought of as a waste of time, so that web developers will=
use it more?=C2=A0 I'd really like for this to happen soon if possible=
(and if the standards committee is also in support of it).</div></div></bl=
ockquote><div><br></div><div>I don't see how this "make C++ useful=
for web development" thing is going to be anything other than a race =
C++ can <i>never</i> win. C++ gets updates ever 3 years. The web changes mu=
ch faster than that. There's no effective way for C++ to keep up in suc=
h an environment. Not so long as it advances through ISO standardization.</=
div><div><br></div><div>C++ is good at being what it currently is. We shoul=
d work on making it better at that. We shouldn't feel like C++ is a les=
ser language just because it's not used for web development.</div></div=
>
<p></p>
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.
Author: Osman Zakir <osmanzakir9@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 17:09:30 -0800 (PST)
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On Tuesday, December 19, 2017 at 5:48:34 AM UTC+5, Nicol Bolas wrote:
>
> On Monday, December 18, 2017 at 7:41:36 PM UTC-5, Osman Zakir wrote:
>>
>> On Tuesday, December 19, 2017 at 5:08:09 AM UTC+5, Ville Voutilainen
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 19 December 2017 at 01:11, Osman Zakir <osman...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > Regarding what you said about the Networking TS: Do you mean it's a
>>> "maybe
>>> > in C++20, maybe later" thing like Ranges? Or do you mean it's going
>>> to be
>>>
>>> Yes.
>>>
>>> > in C++20? I heard it was already approved for publication. What
>>> stages are
>>>
>>> There are no guarantees that either Networking or Ranges will make it
>>> into C++20,
>>> but there's active encouragement to work towards those goals, and
>>> Ranges complements
>>> a major feature that has already been approved into the C++20 working
>>> draft (Concepts).
>>>
>>> > the Networking and Ranges TS's, respectively, in right now? If it's
>>> okay to
>>> > ask.
>>>
>>> They have been published, as was already stated. See
>>> https://isocpp.org/std/status
>>>
>>
>> I don't understand that status graph thing that well. Like, I can tell
>> what the stuff with the arrows means, but nothing aside from that.
>>
>> Anyway, I'm happy that Networking and Ranges are being actively
>> encouraged for standardization, but I hope it happens ASAP (I don't mean to
>> rush anyone, though).
>>
>> And this is probably a dumb question, but: what features and additions
>> does the language need, direct support for web development or no, that
>> would encourage it to be used for that more than it is now? It seems like
>> people already use it for that when they need the performance and speed
>> boost, but opt to use scripting languages when that is not needed since a
>> lot of the things they want to be able to are harder in C++ and it's
>> generally thought of as a waste of time. So really, what I'm asking is:
>> What does C++ need to be able to do for it not be thought of as a waste of
>> time, so that web developers will use it more? I'd really like for this to
>> happen soon if possible (and if the standards committee is also in support
>> of it).
>>
>
> I don't see how this "make C++ useful for web development" thing is going
> to be anything other than a race C++ can *never* win. C++ gets updates
> ever 3 years. The web changes much faster than that. There's no effective
> way for C++ to keep up in such an environment. Not so long as it advances
> through ISO standardization.
>
> C++ is good at being what it currently is. We should work on making it
> better at that. We shouldn't feel like C++ is a lesser language just
> because it's not used for web development.
>
Well, you're right, but then we already have a networking library being
added (question is "when") and there's also a Databases proposal being
worked on. So even if it doesn't win said race, more people still might
start using it after C++20 or 23 come out at this rate.
Even making it better at the things it's already used for would make it
easier to use in general as well, right? Most people who don't use it are
just shying away due to the difficulty in doing some of the things they
want to be able to do.
My theory is that even if C++ never supports web development directly, as
long as it becomes easier to use otherwise, the current situation where
people shy away from it will still change. We still have third party web
frameworks and libraries, and MySQL has a C++ Connector library. And
Modern C++ is already a lot easier to use than classic C++ anyway. That's
progress, isn't it?
Anyway, some more questions. From looking that status graph, I can guess
that Concurrency 2 and 2D Graphics are in a "pending" state? Since both
ends are faded out, I guess no one's sure yet when they'll be in, if at
all. What do each of the letters in the table header mean? And wasn't the
File Systems TS already in C++17? Why is still in the D part?
--
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------=_Part_23204_1509401744.1513645770594
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div dir=3D"ltr">On Tuesday, December 19, 2017 at 5:48:34 AM UTC+5, Nicol B=
olas wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left=
: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr">On=
Monday, December 18, 2017 at 7:41:36 PM UTC-5, Osman Zakir wrote:<blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Tuesday, December 19, 20=
17 at 5:08:09 AM UTC+5, Ville Voutilainen wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;paddi=
ng-left:1ex">On 19 December 2017 at 01:11, Osman Zakir <<a rel=3D"nofoll=
ow">osman...@gmail.com</a>> wrote:
<br>> Regarding what you said about the Networking TS: Do you mean it=
9;s a "maybe
<br>> in C++20, maybe later" thing like Ranges? =C2=A0Or do you mea=
n it's going to be
<br>
<br>Yes.
<br>
<br>> in C++20? =C2=A0I heard it was already approved for publication. =
=C2=A0What stages are
<br>
<br>There are no guarantees that either Networking or Ranges will make it
<br>into C++20,
<br>but there's active encouragement to work towards those goals, and
<br>Ranges complements
<br>a major feature that has already been approved into the C++20 working
<br>draft (Concepts).
<br>
<br>> the Networking and Ranges TS's, respectively, in right now? =
=C2=A0If it's okay to
<br>> ask.
<br>
<br>They have been published, as was already stated. See
<br><a onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D'https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttp=
s%3A%2F%2Fisocpp.org%2Fstd%2Fstatus\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjC=
NGHUfs0r7sSi27RtCq611guy-UQ3g';return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D=
9;https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fisocpp.org%2Fstd%2Fstatus\x=
26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNGHUfs0r7sSi27RtCq611guy-UQ3g';re=
turn true;" href=3D"https://isocpp.org/std/status" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D=
"nofollow">https://isocpp.org/std/status</a>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I don't understand that status gra=
ph thing that well.=C2=A0 Like, I can tell what the stuff with the arrows m=
eans, but nothing aside from that. =C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Anyway, =
I'm happy that Networking and Ranges are being actively encouraged for =
standardization, but I hope it happens ASAP (I don't mean to rush anyon=
e, though). =C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>And this is probably a dumb que=
stion, but: what features and additions does the language need, direct supp=
ort for web development or no, that would encourage it to be used for that =
more than it is now?=C2=A0 It seems like people already use it for that whe=
n they need the performance and speed boost, but opt to use scripting langu=
ages when that is not needed since a lot of the things they want to be able=
to are harder in C++ and it's generally thought of as a waste of time.=
=C2=A0 So really, what I'm asking is: What does C++ need to be able to =
do for it not be thought of as a waste of time, so that web developers will=
use it more?=C2=A0 I'd really like for this to happen soon if possible=
(and if the standards committee is also in support of it).</div></div></bl=
ockquote><div><br></div><div>I don't see how this "make C++ useful=
for web development" thing is going to be anything other than a race =
C++ can <i>never</i> win. C++ gets updates ever 3 years. The web changes mu=
ch faster than that. There's no effective way for C++ to keep up in suc=
h an environment. Not so long as it advances through ISO standardization.</=
div><div><br></div><div>C++ is good at being what it currently is. We shoul=
d work on making it better at that. We shouldn't feel like C++ is a les=
ser language just because it's not used for web development.</div></div=
></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Well, you're right, but then we alrea=
dy have a networking library being added (question is "when") and=
there's also a Databases proposal being worked on.=C2=A0 So even if it=
doesn't win said race, more people still might start using it after C+=
+20 or 23 come out at this rate. =C2=A0 </div><div><br></div><div>Even maki=
ng it better at the things it's already used for would make it easier t=
o use in general as well, right?=C2=A0 Most people who don't use it are=
just shying away due to the difficulty in doing some of the things they wa=
nt to be able to do.=C2=A0 </div><div><br></div><div>My theory is that even=
if C++ never supports web development directly, as long as it becomes easi=
er to use otherwise, the current situation where people shy away from it wi=
ll still change.=C2=A0 We still have third party web frameworks and librari=
es, and MySQL has a C++ Connector library.=C2=A0 And Modern C++ is already =
a lot easier to use than classic C++ anyway.=C2=A0 That's progress, isn=
't it?</div><div><br></div><div><span style=3D"display: inline !importa=
nt; float: none; background-color: transparent; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); fon=
t-family: "Arial","Helvetica",sans-serif; font-size: 13=
px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spac=
ing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-decoration: none; text-inde=
nt: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space:=
normal; word-spacing: 0px;">Anyway, some more questions.=C2=A0 From lookin=
g that status graph, I can guess that Concurrency 2 and 2D Graphics are in =
a "pending" state?=C2=A0 Since both ends are faded out, I guess n=
o one's sure yet when they'll be in, if at all.=C2=A0 What do each =
of the letters in the table header mean?=C2=A0 And wasn't the File Syst=
ems TS already in C++17?=C2=A0 Why is still in the D part?=C2=A0=C2=A0</spa=
n><b></b></div></div>
<p></p>
-- <br />
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40isocpp.org?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter">https://groups.google.=
com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/8f382884-9337-4044-9711-4c8e744a48fd=
%40isocpp.org</a>.<br />
------=_Part_23204_1509401744.1513645770594--
------=_Part_23203_1164500399.1513645770594--
.
Author: Nicol Bolas <jmckesson@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 17:27:28 -0800 (PST)
Raw View
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------=_Part_24017_2018670990.1513646848992
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
On Monday, December 18, 2017 at 8:09:30 PM UTC-5, Osman Zakir wrote:
>
> On Tuesday, December 19, 2017 at 5:48:34 AM UTC+5, Nicol Bolas wrote:
>>
>> On Monday, December 18, 2017 at 7:41:36 PM UTC-5, Osman Zakir wrote:
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, December 19, 2017 at 5:08:09 AM UTC+5, Ville Voutilainen
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 19 December 2017 at 01:11, Osman Zakir <osman...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> > Regarding what you said about the Networking TS: Do you mean it's a
>>>> "maybe
>>>> > in C++20, maybe later" thing like Ranges? Or do you mean it's going
>>>> to be
>>>>
>>>> Yes.
>>>>
>>>> > in C++20? I heard it was already approved for publication. What
>>>> stages are
>>>>
>>>> There are no guarantees that either Networking or Ranges will make it
>>>> into C++20,
>>>> but there's active encouragement to work towards those goals, and
>>>> Ranges complements
>>>> a major feature that has already been approved into the C++20 working
>>>> draft (Concepts).
>>>>
>>>> > the Networking and Ranges TS's, respectively, in right now? If it's
>>>> okay to
>>>> > ask.
>>>>
>>>> They have been published, as was already stated. See
>>>> https://isocpp.org/std/status
>>>>
>>>
>>> I don't understand that status graph thing that well. Like, I can tell
>>> what the stuff with the arrows means, but nothing aside from that.
>>>
>>> Anyway, I'm happy that Networking and Ranges are being actively
>>> encouraged for standardization, but I hope it happens ASAP (I don't mean to
>>> rush anyone, though).
>>>
>>> And this is probably a dumb question, but: what features and additions
>>> does the language need, direct support for web development or no, that
>>> would encourage it to be used for that more than it is now? It seems like
>>> people already use it for that when they need the performance and speed
>>> boost, but opt to use scripting languages when that is not needed since a
>>> lot of the things they want to be able to are harder in C++ and it's
>>> generally thought of as a waste of time. So really, what I'm asking is:
>>> What does C++ need to be able to do for it not be thought of as a waste of
>>> time, so that web developers will use it more? I'd really like for this to
>>> happen soon if possible (and if the standards committee is also in support
>>> of it).
>>>
>>
>> I don't see how this "make C++ useful for web development" thing is going
>> to be anything other than a race C++ can *never* win. C++ gets updates
>> ever 3 years. The web changes much faster than that. There's no effective
>> way for C++ to keep up in such an environment. Not so long as it advances
>> through ISO standardization.
>>
>> C++ is good at being what it currently is. We should work on making it
>> better at that. We shouldn't feel like C++ is a lesser language just
>> because it's not used for web development.
>>
>
> Well, you're right, but then we already have a networking library being
> added (question is "when") and there's also a Databases proposal being
> worked on. So even if it doesn't win said race, more people still might
> start using it after C++20 or 23 come out at this rate.
>
> Even making it better at the things it's already used for would make it
> easier to use in general as well, right? Most people who don't use it are
> just shying away due to the difficulty in doing some of the things they
> want to be able to do.
>
> My theory is that even if C++ never supports web development directly, as
> long as it becomes easier to use otherwise, the current situation where
> people shy away from it will still change. We still have third party web
> frameworks and libraries, and MySQL has a C++ Connector library. And
> Modern C++ is already a lot easier to use than classic C++ anyway. That's
> progress, isn't it?
>
My overall point is that you shouldn't measure things by "People won't use
C++ to do X because it doesn't have a standard library component for doing
that."
The thing C++ most needs is a unified build system and library distribution
kit. Because that's the thing that keeps all those "third party framworks
and libraries" from being out of reach for many C++ programmers: the
difficulty of getting a library from someone else and using it. If we could
have that, we wouldn't* need* standard proposals like the 2D graphics
library or the database proposal; such libraries could be easily accessible
to the people who want them.
But that's not something the ISO C++ standardization committee can actually
fix.
Anyway, some more questions. From looking that status graph, I can guess
> that Concurrency 2 and 2D Graphics are in a "pending" state? Since both
> ends are faded out, I guess no one's sure yet when they'll be in, if at
> all. What do each of the letters in the table header mean?
>
It's a spreadsheet. They don't mean anything.
> And wasn't the File Systems TS already in C++17? Why is still in the D
> part?
>
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org.
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------=_Part_24017_2018670990.1513646848992
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div dir=3D"ltr">On Monday, December 18, 2017 at 8:09:30 PM UTC-5, Osman Za=
kir wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left:=
0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr">On =
Tuesday, December 19, 2017 at 5:48:34 AM UTC+5, Nicol Bolas wrote:<blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Monday, December 18, 201=
7 at 7:41:36 PM UTC-5, Osman Zakir wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left=
:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Tuesday, December 19, 2017 at 5:08:09 AM UTC+5, V=
ille Voutilainen wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;=
margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">On 19 Decemb=
er 2017 at 01:11, Osman Zakir <<a rel=3D"nofollow">osman...@gmail.com</a=
>> wrote:
<br>> Regarding what you said about the Networking TS: Do you mean it=
9;s a "maybe
<br>> in C++20, maybe later" thing like Ranges? =C2=A0Or do you mea=
n it's going to be
<br>
<br>Yes.
<br>
<br>> in C++20? =C2=A0I heard it was already approved for publication. =
=C2=A0What stages are
<br>
<br>There are no guarantees that either Networking or Ranges will make it
<br>into C++20,
<br>but there's active encouragement to work towards those goals, and
<br>Ranges complements
<br>a major feature that has already been approved into the C++20 working
<br>draft (Concepts).
<br>
<br>> the Networking and Ranges TS's, respectively, in right now? =
=C2=A0If it's okay to
<br>> ask.
<br>
<br>They have been published, as was already stated. See
<br><a onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D'https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttp=
s%3A%2F%2Fisocpp.org%2Fstd%2Fstatus\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjC=
NGHUfs0r7sSi27RtCq611guy-UQ3g';return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D=
9;https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fisocpp.org%2Fstd%2Fstatus\x=
26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNGHUfs0r7sSi27RtCq611guy-UQ3g';re=
turn true;" href=3D"https://isocpp.org/std/status" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D=
"nofollow">https://isocpp.org/std/status</a>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I don't understand that status gra=
ph thing that well.=C2=A0 Like, I can tell what the stuff with the arrows m=
eans, but nothing aside from that. =C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Anyway, =
I'm happy that Networking and Ranges are being actively encouraged for =
standardization, but I hope it happens ASAP (I don't mean to rush anyon=
e, though). =C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>And this is probably a dumb que=
stion, but: what features and additions does the language need, direct supp=
ort for web development or no, that would encourage it to be used for that =
more than it is now?=C2=A0 It seems like people already use it for that whe=
n they need the performance and speed boost, but opt to use scripting langu=
ages when that is not needed since a lot of the things they want to be able=
to are harder in C++ and it's generally thought of as a waste of time.=
=C2=A0 So really, what I'm asking is: What does C++ need to be able to =
do for it not be thought of as a waste of time, so that web developers will=
use it more?=C2=A0 I'd really like for this to happen soon if possible=
(and if the standards committee is also in support of it).</div></div></bl=
ockquote><div><br></div><div>I don't see how this "make C++ useful=
for web development" thing is going to be anything other than a race =
C++ can <i>never</i> win. C++ gets updates ever 3 years. The web changes mu=
ch faster than that. There's no effective way for C++ to keep up in suc=
h an environment. Not so long as it advances through ISO standardization.</=
div><div><br></div><div>C++ is good at being what it currently is. We shoul=
d work on making it better at that. We shouldn't feel like C++ is a les=
ser language just because it's not used for web development.</div></div=
></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Well, you're right, but then we alrea=
dy have a networking library being added (question is "when") and=
there's also a Databases proposal being worked on.=C2=A0 So even if it=
doesn't win said race, more people still might start using it after C+=
+20 or 23 come out at this rate. =C2=A0 </div><div><br></div><div>Even maki=
ng it better at the things it's already used for would make it easier t=
o use in general as well, right?=C2=A0 Most people who don't use it are=
just shying away due to the difficulty in doing some of the things they wa=
nt to be able to do.=C2=A0 </div><div><br></div><div>My theory is that even=
if C++ never supports web development directly, as long as it becomes easi=
er to use otherwise, the current situation where people shy away from it wi=
ll still change.=C2=A0 We still have third party web frameworks and librari=
es, and MySQL has a C++ Connector library.=C2=A0 And Modern C++ is already =
a lot easier to use than classic C++ anyway.=C2=A0 That's progress, isn=
't it?</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>My overall point is =
that you shouldn't measure things by "People won't use C++ to =
do X because it doesn't have a standard library component for doing tha=
t."</div><div><br></div><div>The thing C++ most needs is a unified bui=
ld system and library distribution kit. Because that's the thing that k=
eeps all those "third party framworks and libraries" from being o=
ut of reach for many C++ programmers: the difficulty of getting a library f=
rom someone else and using it.=C2=A0<span style=3D"display: inline !importa=
nt; float: none; background-color: transparent; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); fon=
t-family: "Arial","Helvetica",sans-serif; font-size: 13=
px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spac=
ing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-decoration: none; text-inde=
nt: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space:=
normal; word-spacing: 0px;">If we could have that, we wouldn't</span><=
i style=3D"background-attachment: scroll; background-clip: border-box; back=
ground-color: transparent; background-image: none; background-origin: paddi=
ng-box; background-position-x: 0%; background-position-y: 0%; background-re=
peat: repeat; background-size: auto; border-bottom-color: rgb(34, 34, 34); =
border-bottom-style: none; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-image-outset: 0=
; border-image-repeat: stretch; border-image-slice: 100%; border-image-sour=
ce: none; border-image-width: 1; border-left-color: rgb(34, 34, 34); border=
-left-style: none; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(34, 34, =
34); border-right-style: none; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: r=
gb(34, 34, 34); border-top-style: none; border-top-width: 0px; color: rgb(3=
4, 34, 34); font-family: &quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;Helvetica&=
quot;,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: italic; font-variant: normal=
; font-weight: 400; height: auto; letter-spacing: normal; margin-bottom: 0p=
x; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; min-width: 0px; or=
phans: 2; overflow: visible; overflow-x: visible; overflow-y: visible; padd=
ing-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; t=
ext-align: left; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: n=
one; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px=
;"> need</i><span style=3D"display: inline !important; float: none; backgro=
und-color: transparent; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: "Arial&qu=
ot;,"Helvetica",sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2;=
text-align: left; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:=
none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0=
px;"> standard proposals like the 2D graphics library or the database propo=
sal; such libraries could be easily accessible to the people who want them.=
</span></div><div><b><br></b></div><div>But that's not something the IS=
O C++ standardization committee can actually fix.</div><div><i><br></i></di=
v><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;b=
order-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><span =
style=3D"display:inline!important;float:none;background-color:transparent;c=
olor:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:"Arial","Helvetica",sans=
-serif;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:400=
;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:left;text-decoration:none;text-indent:0px=
;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">Anyway, some more=
questions.=C2=A0 From looking that status graph, I can guess that Concurre=
ncy 2 and 2D Graphics are in a "pending" state? </span><span styl=
e=3D"display:inline!important;float:none;background-color:transparent;color=
:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:"Arial","Helvetica",sans-ser=
if;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:400;let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-align:left;text-decoration:none;text-indent:0px;tex=
t-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">Since both ends are f=
aded out, I guess no one's sure yet when they'll be in, if at all.=
=C2=A0 What do each of the letters in the table header mean?</span></div></=
div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>It's a spreadsheet. They don't=
mean anything.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left=
: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><span style=3D"display:inline!important;float=
:none;background-color:transparent;color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:"Ar=
ial","Helvetica",sans-serif;font-size:13px;font-style:normal=
;font-variant:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:left;=
text-decoration:none;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal=
;word-spacing:0px">=C2=A0 And wasn't the File Systems TS already in C++=
17?=C2=A0 Why is still in the D part?=C2=A0=C2=A0</span><b></b></div></div>=
</blockquote></div>
<p></p>
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.
Author: Alberto Barbati <albertobarbati@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2017 00:04:32 -0800 (PST)
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Il giorno luned=C3=AC 18 dicembre 2017 14:22:06 UTC+1, Osman Zakir ha scrit=
to:
>
> I originally wanted to asking about Coroutines as well, but then I read=
=20
> that thread titled "coroutines have odd interaction with std algorithms"=
=20
> and decided against it since it seems like there are obviously some=20
> problems with the Coroutines TS right now - hopefully we'll get one of th=
e=20
> better versions Nicol talked about when it's all said and done.
>
I believe you are overstating the "obvious problems" with the Coroutine TS.=
=20
The TS has been approved and published. I don't know if and when it will be=
=20
merged in the standard, Ville didn't mention it and surely he is more=20
knowledgeable than me about that. However, I find it hard to believe that=
=20
all that work will be thrown away to follow another competing proposal. A=
=20
more probable scenario is to have some incremental changes to the TS to=20
allow stackful coroutines in some form, either before or after merging.=20
Just my opinion.
Disclaimer: I like the Coroutine TS as it is and would be more than happy=
=20
to have it in the standard soon.
--=20
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ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
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g.
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>Il giorno luned=C3=AC 18 dicembre 2017 14:22:06 UTC+1,=
Osman Zakir ha scritto:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: =
0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div><span style=3D"display:inline!important;float:none;backgrou=
nd-color:transparent;color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:"Arial",&quo=
t;Helvetica",sans-serif;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant:=
normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:left;text-decoratio=
n:none;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:=
0px">I originally wanted to asking about Coroutines as well, but then I rea=
d that thread titled "coroutines have odd interaction with std algorit=
hms" and decided against it since it seems like there are obviously so=
me problems with the Coroutines TS right now - hopefully we'll get one =
of the better versions Nicol talked about when it's all said and done.<=
/span></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I believe you are overst=
ating the "obvious problems" with the Coroutine TS. The TS has be=
en approved and published. I don't know if and when it will be merged i=
n the standard, Ville didn't mention it and surely he is more knowledge=
able than me about that. However, I find it hard to believe that all that w=
ork will be thrown away to follow another competing proposal. A more=C2=A0 =
probable scenario is to have some incremental changes to the TS to allow st=
ackful coroutines in some form, either before or after merging. Just my opi=
nion.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Disclaimer: I like the Coroutine TS as i=
t is and would be more than happy to have it in the standard soon.<br></div=
></div>
<p></p>
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%40isocpp.org</a>.<br />
------=_Part_7434_1638841794.1513670672530--
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.
Author: Osman Zakir <osmanzakir9@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2017 03:24:57 -0800 (PST)
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On Tuesday, December 19, 2017 at 1:04:32 PM UTC+5, Alberto Barbati wrote:
>
>
> Il giorno luned=C3=AC 18 dicembre 2017 14:22:06 UTC+1, Osman Zakir ha scr=
itto:
>>
>> I originally wanted to asking about Coroutines as well, but then I read=
=20
>> that thread titled "coroutines have odd interaction with std algorithms"=
=20
>> and decided against it since it seems like there are obviously some=20
>> problems with the Coroutines TS right now - hopefully we'll get one of t=
he=20
>> better versions Nicol talked about when it's all said and done.
>>
>
> I believe you are overstating the "obvious problems" with the Coroutine=
=20
> TS. The TS has been approved and published. I don't know if and when it=
=20
> will be merged in the standard, Ville didn't mention it and surely he is=
=20
> more knowledgeable than me about that. However, I find it hard to believe=
=20
> that all that work will be thrown away to follow another competing=20
> proposal. A more probable scenario is to have some incremental changes t=
o=20
> the TS to allow stackful coroutines in some form, either before or after=
=20
> merging. Just my opinion.
>
> Disclaimer: I like the Coroutine TS as it is and would be more than happy=
=20
> to have it in the standard soon.
>
Yeah, it'll be merged alright, but according to what I read, some people=20
are dissatisfied with the TS itself. Hopefully the problems will be fixed.=
=20
=20
We'll hopefully get a HTTP web server and client added to the standard at=
=20
some point, but I'm also worried about C++ not having a way to get all=20
third-party open source libraries to C++ programmers easily. I'm thinking=
=20
of a solution, one that all C++ compiler vendors will have to work on. =20
It's to have all compilers shipped with a collection of third-party=20
libraries and make it so that including them in a project is as easy as it=
=20
is with the standard library. And hopefully we can get it to a point where=
=20
no extra linking step is needed. Instant inclusion so that the programmer=
=20
can just start coding instantly without any effort on his/her part. Might=
=20
seem a bit ambitious, but I think this has to be done if we are to have the=
=20
C++ community involved with the updates to the language in a more involved=
=20
way and make it so that any useful library the library authors write will=
=20
be immediately available to all programmers. That would be the unified=20
library distribution kit, if we can get work started on it.
As for the build system. IMO, those same compiler vendors could=20
collaborate and create a single compiler toolchain that the aforementioned=
=20
collection of third-party libraries will be shipped with. It should be a=
=20
compiler that's 100% standards conformant (yes, really - we need that) and=
=20
should also produce compiler warning and error messages that are easy to=20
understand even for complete beginners. =20
Now, thankfully, some people on the committee also have their own=20
compilers. The chair himself is in Microsoft, for example. Get him=20
onboard with this somehow. And we also need to mention this somewhere=20
where it'll reach other compiler vendors as well. =20
--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
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mail to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org.
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..org/d/msgid/std-proposals/91476861-cb55-4d43-949f-30c44223099d%40isocpp.or=
g.
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<div dir=3D"ltr">On Tuesday, December 19, 2017 at 1:04:32 PM UTC+5, Alberto=
Barbati wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-=
left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><br>Il giorno luned=C3=AC 18 dicembre 2017 14:22:06 UTC+1, Osman Zakir ha=
scritto:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.=
8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><spa=
n style=3D"display:inline!important;float:none;background-color:transparent=
;color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:"Arial","Helvetica",sa=
ns-serif;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:4=
00;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:left;text-decoration:none;text-indent:0=
px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">I originally wa=
nted to asking about Coroutines as well, but then I read that thread titled=
"coroutines have odd interaction with std algorithms" and decide=
d against it since it seems like there are obviously some problems with the=
Coroutines TS right now - hopefully we'll get one of the better versio=
ns Nicol talked about when it's all said and done.</span></div></div></=
blockquote><div><br></div><div>I believe you are overstating the "obvi=
ous problems" with the Coroutine TS. The TS has been approved and publ=
ished. I don't know if and when it will be merged in the standard, Vill=
e didn't mention it and surely he is more knowledgeable than me about t=
hat. However, I find it hard to believe that all that work will be thrown a=
way to follow another competing proposal. A more=C2=A0 probable scenario is=
to have some incremental changes to the TS to allow stackful coroutines in=
some form, either before or after merging. Just my opinion.<br></div><div>=
<br></div><div>Disclaimer: I like the Coroutine TS as it is and would be mo=
re than happy to have it in the standard soon.<br></div></div></blockquote>=
<div><br></div><div>Yeah, it'll be merged alright, but according to wha=
t I read, some people are dissatisfied with the TS itself.=C2=A0 Hopefully =
the problems will be fixed. =C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>We'll hopef=
ully get a HTTP web server and client added to the standard at some point, =
but I'm also worried about C++ not having a way to get all third-party =
open source libraries to C++ programmers easily.=C2=A0 I'm thinking of =
a solution, one that all C++ compiler vendors will have to work on.=C2=A0 I=
t's to have all compilers shipped with a collection of third-party libr=
aries and make it so that including them in a project is as easy as it is w=
ith the standard library.=C2=A0 And hopefully we can get it to a point wher=
e no extra linking step is needed.=C2=A0 Instant inclusion so that the prog=
rammer can just start coding instantly without any effort on his/her part.=
=C2=A0 Might seem a bit ambitious, but I think this has to be done if we ar=
e to have the C++ community involved with the updates to the language in a =
more involved way and make it so that any useful library the library author=
s write will be immediately available to all programmers. =C2=A0 That would=
be the unified library distribution kit, if we can get work started on it.=
</div><div><br></div><div>As for the build system.=C2=A0 IMO, those same co=
mpiler vendors could collaborate and create a single compiler toolchain tha=
t the aforementioned collection of third-party libraries will be shipped wi=
th.=C2=A0 It should be a compiler that's 100% standards conformant (yes=
, really - we need that) and should also produce compiler warning and error=
messages that are easy to understand even for complete beginners. =C2=A0</=
div><div><br></div><div>Now, thankfully, some people on the committee also =
have their own compilers.=C2=A0 The chair himself is in Microsoft, for exam=
ple.=C2=A0 Get him onboard with this somehow.=C2=A0 And we also need to men=
tion this somewhere where it'll reach other compiler vendors as well. =
=C2=A0</div></div>
<p></p>
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%40isocpp.org</a>.<br />
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