------=_Part_1426_696781805.1517704908337
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary="----=_Part_1427_1592751858.1517704908337"

------=_Part_1427_1592751858.1517704908337
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Hi everybody,

Something that I miss in C++ is an easy way to write types (that aren't
POD) to a buffer, and read them later.

Similar to IO and string streams, it would be cool to have a "bitstream"
that does this for me.
The idea would be that folks would only need to overload the << and >>
operators for a custom type.

I have written such a class for all my own projects. Is this something that
could be a future proposal? Or is there maybe a better way to do
serialization in C++?

The repo has code and some more examples.
https://github.com/kaimast/bitstream

Thanks,
Kai

(And sorry if this has already been suggested or there is a feature in the
works that I don't know of that provides a similar feature.)

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org.
To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/03d0725c-74e8-4546-864a-cf162224c64a%40isocpp.org.

------=_Part_1427_1592751858.1517704908337
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi everybody,</div><div><br></div><div>Something that=
 I miss in C++ is an easy way to write types (that aren&#39;t POD) to a buf=
fer, and read them later.</div><div><br></div><div>Similar to IO and string=
 streams, it would be cool to have a &quot;bitstream&quot; that does this f=
or me. <br></div><div>The idea would be that folks would only need to overl=
oad the &lt;&lt; and &gt;&gt; operators for a custom type.</div><div><br></=
div><div>I have written such a class for all my own projects. Is this somet=
hing that could be a future proposal? Or is there maybe a better way to do =
serialization in C++?</div><div><br></div><div>The repo has code and some m=
ore examples.<br></div><div>https://github.com/kaimast/bitstream</div><div>=
<br></div><div>Thanks,<br>Kai<br></div><div><br></div><div>(And sorry if th=
is has already been suggested or there is a feature in the works that I don=
&#39;t know of that provides a similar feature.)</div></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org">std-proposa=
ls+unsubscribe@isocpp.org</a>.<br />
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:std-proposals@isocpp=
..org">std-proposals@isocpp.org</a>.<br />
To view this discussion on the web visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.c=
om/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/03d0725c-74e8-4546-864a-cf162224c64a%=
40isocpp.org?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter">https://groups.google.=
com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/03d0725c-74e8-4546-864a-cf162224c64a=
%40isocpp.org</a>.<br />

------=_Part_1427_1592751858.1517704908337--

------=_Part_1426_696781805.1517704908337--

.

------=_Part_18579_447286410.1517713163884
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary="----=_Part_18580_1545294231.1517713163884"

------=_Part_18580_1545294231.1517713163884
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

On Saturday, February 3, 2018 at 7:41:48 PM UTC-5, Kai Mast wrote:
>
> Hi everybody,
>
> Something that I miss in C++ is an easy way to write types (that aren't
> POD) to a buffer, and read them later.
>

I'm going to pretend that by "POD" you really meant "trivially copyable".

Similar to IO and string streams, it would be cool to have a "bitstream"
> that does this for me.
>
The idea would be that folks would only need to overload the << and >>
> operators for a custom type.
>
> I have written such a class for all my own projects. Is this something
> that could be a future proposal? Or is there maybe a better way to do
> serialization in C++?
>
> The repo has code and some more examples.
> https://github.com/kaimast/bitstream
>

Well as previously stated, your `is_pod` tests should be replaced with
`is_trivially_copyable`.

So, you've provided a serialization framework that is essentially "write
your own serializers". And the way to specialize the serializer for your
user-created types is... what, exactly? What is the specialization point
for writing your type to the stream or reading it from the stream? I'm
honestly not sure how well `operator<<` overloading works in this case,
since you already have a function that* doesn't* use SFINAE based on
`is_trivially_copyable`. I don't know how the rules of overload resolution
work when picking between a member function and a non-member one, but it's
really not something you should leave up to esoteric rules like that.

And why is your `bitstream` not using a `vector<std::byte>` as what it
writes to, or some similar standard library container? It's essentially
just a stream wrapper around a container. Indeed, it would be useful to be
able to have it select between `vector<std::byte>` and `span<std::byte>` as
needed. And what of writing to/reading from stream buffers? If you want to
write data out to a file, do you have to write it to a big memory buffer
first?

Not to mention there's the lack of allocator support.

Overall, this is a pretty no-frills serialization system.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org.
To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/e561abcd-a698-4bb1-b95e-16ef3c53533c%40isocpp.org.

------=_Part_18580_1545294231.1517713163884
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">On Saturday, February 3, 2018 at 7:41:48 PM UTC-5, Kai Mas=
t wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0=
..8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>=
Hi everybody,</div><div><br></div><div>Something that I miss in C++ is an e=
asy way to write types (that aren&#39;t POD) to a buffer, and read them lat=
er.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I&#39;m going to pretend th=
at by &quot;POD&quot; you really meant &quot;trivially copyable&quot;.</div=
><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin=
-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"lt=
r"><div>Similar to IO and string streams, it would be cool to have a &quot;=
bitstream&quot; that does this for me.</div></div></blockquote><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div></div><div>The idea =
would be that folks would only need to overload the &lt;&lt; and &gt;&gt; o=
perators for a custom type.</div><div><br></div><div>I have written such a =
class for all my own projects. Is this something that could be a future pro=
posal? Or is there maybe a better way to do serialization in C++?</div><div=
><br></div><div>The repo has code and some more examples.<br></div><div><a =
onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F=
%2Fgithub.com%2Fkaimast%2Fbitstream\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjC=
NFxRmotVxSD4dazgVm_2Q7EIh4mwg&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#3=
9;https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fkaimast%2Fbits=
tream\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNFxRmotVxSD4dazgVm_2Q7EIh4mwg&=
#39;;return true;" href=3D"https://github.com/kaimast/bitstream" target=3D"=
_blank" rel=3D"nofollow">https://github.com/kaimast/<wbr>bitstream</a></div=
></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Well as previously stated, your `is=
_pod` tests should be replaced with `is_trivially_copyable`.</div><div><br>=
</div><div>So, you&#39;ve provided a serialization framework that is essent=
ially &quot;write your own serializers&quot;. And the way to specialize the=
 serializer for your user-created types is... what, exactly? What is the sp=
ecialization point for writing your type to the stream or reading it from t=
he stream? I&#39;m honestly not sure how well `operator&lt;&lt;` overloadin=
g works in this case, since you already have a function that<i> doesn&#39;t=
</i> use SFINAE based on `is_trivially_copyable`. I don&#39;t know how the =
rules of overload resolution work when picking between a member function an=
d a non-member one, but it&#39;s really not something you should leave up t=
o esoteric rules like that.</div><div><i><br></i></div><div>And why is your=
 `bitstream` not using a `vector&lt;std::byte&gt;` as what it writes to, or=
 some similar standard library container? It&#39;s essentially just a strea=
m wrapper around a container. Indeed, it would be useful to be able to have=
 it select between `vector&lt;std::byte&gt;` and `span&lt;std::byte&gt;` as=
 needed. And what of writing to/reading from stream buffers? If you want to=
 write data out to a file, do you have to write it to a big memory buffer f=
irst?</div><div><br></div><div>Not to mention there&#39;s the lack of alloc=
ator support.</div><div><br></div><div>Overall, this is a pretty no-frills =
serialization system.</div></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org">std-proposa=
ls+unsubscribe@isocpp.org</a>.<br />
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:std-proposals@isocpp=
..org">std-proposals@isocpp.org</a>.<br />
To view this discussion on the web visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.c=
om/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/e561abcd-a698-4bb1-b95e-16ef3c53533c%=
40isocpp.org?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter">https://groups.google.=
com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/e561abcd-a698-4bb1-b95e-16ef3c53533c=
%40isocpp.org</a>.<br />

------=_Part_18580_1545294231.1517713163884--

------=_Part_18579_447286410.1517713163884--

.

--089e0820f498070696056464c32e
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Nicol,
Please stop being so unwelcoming to first-timers!
As far as I know being up-to-date to the latest standard is not a
requirement to post here.
Nor that's a requirement for good ideas.
There are several ways to point improvements to the OP and yours are always
the worst.
If you goal is to chase away contributions to the future of C++, congrats
you're getting there!

Kai,
Unofficially (since I am no ISO committee member, just someone looking into
C++ improvements), my apologies for the reception to your proposal.
Even though I don't like the way `is_pod` and `std::byte` issues were
pointed out they are correct indeed.
POD is no longer a thing. The concept of trivially copyable supercedes it.
And std::byte is new standard-sanctioned way to deals with binary data.
Please inform yourself about them: std::byte
<http://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/types/byte>.

What concerns me in your proposal are two points:
1) Does it comes to invoke undefined behavior while turning objects into a
stream of bytes and back?
2) Are you aware of the reflection proposals for C++? (p0194r4
<http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2017/p0194r4.html>) If
so, how do you expect your proposal to interact with it?

Other than that, I don't see the idea itself being inherently bad.
You also should look into bit_cast
<http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2016/p0476r1.html>!

Good luck with your proposal.


On Sat, Feb 3, 2018 at 8:59 PM, Nicol Bolas <jmckesson@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Saturday, February 3, 2018 at 7:41:48 PM UTC-5, Kai Mast wrote:
>>
>> Hi everybody,
>>
>> Something that I miss in C++ is an easy way to write types (that aren't
>> POD) to a buffer, and read them later.
>>
>
> I'm going to pretend that by "POD" you really meant "trivially copyable".
>
> Similar to IO and string streams, it would be cool to have a "bitstream"
>> that does this for me.
>>
> The idea would be that folks would only need to overload the << and >>
>> operators for a custom type.
>>
>> I have written such a class for all my own projects. Is this something
>> that could be a future proposal? Or is there maybe a better way to do
>> serialization in C++?
>>
>> The repo has code and some more examples.
>> https://github.com/kaimast/bitstream
>>
>
> Well as previously stated, your `is_pod` tests should be replaced with
> `is_trivially_copyable`.
>
> So, you've provided a serialization framework that is essentially "write
> your own serializers". And the way to specialize the serializer for your
> user-created types is... what, exactly? What is the specialization point
> for writing your type to the stream or reading it from the stream? I'm
> honestly not sure how well `operator<<` overloading works in this case,
> since you already have a function that* doesn't* use SFINAE based on
> `is_trivially_copyable`. I don't know how the rules of overload resolution
> work when picking between a member function and a non-member one, but it's
> really not something you should leave up to esoteric rules like that.
>
> And why is your `bitstream` not using a `vector<std::byte>` as what it
> writes to, or some similar standard library container? It's essentially
> just a stream wrapper around a container. Indeed, it would be useful to be
> able to have it select between `vector<std::byte>` and `span<std::byte>` as
> needed. And what of writing to/reading from stream buffers? If you want to
> write data out to a file, do you have to write it to a big memory buffer
> first?
>
> Not to mention there's the lack of allocator support.
>
> Overall, this is a pretty no-frills serialization system.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org.
> To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org.
> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/
> isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/e561abcd-a698-4bb1-
> b95e-16ef3c53533c%40isocpp.org
> <https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/e561abcd-a698-4bb1-b95e-16ef3c53533c%40isocpp.org?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> .
>

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org.
To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/CA%2BfGSbP16ReuJ_cWjQz42JY-Pqr_V3tzcijrrUC0npGgHKg-JQ%40mail.gmail.com.

--089e0820f498070696056464c32e
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Nicol,<div>Please stop being so unwelcoming to first-timer=
s!</div><div>As far as I know being up-to-date to the latest standard is no=
t a requirement to post here.</div><div>Nor that&#39;s a requirement for go=
od ideas.</div><div>There are several ways to point improvements to the OP =
and yours are always the worst.</div><div>If you goal is to chase away cont=
ributions to the future of C++, congrats you&#39;re getting there!</div><di=
v><br></div><div>Kai,</div><div>Unofficially (since I am no ISO committee m=
ember, just someone looking into C++ improvements), my apologies for the re=
ception to your proposal.</div><div>Even though I don&#39;t like the way `i=
s_pod` and `std::byte` issues were pointed out they are correct indeed.</di=
v><div>POD is no longer a thing. The concept of trivially copyable superced=
es it.</div><div>And std::byte is new standard-sanctioned way to deals with=
 binary data.</div><div>Please inform yourself about them: <a href=3D"http:=
//en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/types/byte">std::byte</a>.</div><div><br></div>=
<div>What concerns me in your proposal are two points:</div><div>1) Does it=
 comes to invoke undefined behavior while turning objects into a stream of =
bytes and back?</div><div>2) Are you aware of the reflection proposals for =
C++? (<a href=3D"http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2017/p0=
194r4.html">p0194r4</a>) If so, how do you expect your proposal to interact=
 with it?</div><div><br></div><div>Other than that, I don&#39;t see the ide=
a itself being inherently bad.</div><div>You also should look into=C2=A0<a =
href=3D"http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2016/p0476r1.htm=
l">bit_cast</a>!</div><div><br></div><div>Good luck with your proposal.</di=
v><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_q=
uote">On Sat, Feb 3, 2018 at 8:59 PM, Nicol Bolas <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jmckesson@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jmckesson@gmail.com</=
a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">On =
Saturday, February 3, 2018 at 7:41:48 PM UTC-5, Kai Mast wrote:<blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #=
ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi everybody,</div><div><=
br></div><div>Something that I miss in C++ is an easy way to write types (t=
hat aren&#39;t POD) to a buffer, and read them later.</div></div></blockquo=
te><div><br></div><div>I&#39;m going to pretend that by &quot;POD&quot; you=
 really meant &quot;trivially copyable&quot;.</div><div><br></div><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Similar to IO and stri=
ng streams, it would be cool to have a &quot;bitstream&quot; that does this=
 for me.</div></div></blockquote><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr"><div></div><div>The idea would be that folks would only need=
 to overload the &lt;&lt; and &gt;&gt; operators for a custom type.</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>I have written such a class for all my own projects. Is t=
his something that could be a future proposal? Or is there maybe a better w=
ay to do serialization in C++?</div><div><br></div><div>The repo has code a=
nd some more examples.<br></div><div><a href=3D"https://github.com/kaimast/=
bitstream" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/kaimast/bi=
t<wbr>stream</a></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Well as previo=
usly stated, your `is_pod` tests should be replaced with `is_trivially_copy=
able`.</div><div><br></div><div>So, you&#39;ve provided a serialization fra=
mework that is essentially &quot;write your own serializers&quot;. And the =
way to specialize the serializer for your user-created types is... what, ex=
actly? What is the specialization point for writing your type to the stream=
 or reading it from the stream? I&#39;m honestly not sure how well `operato=
r&lt;&lt;` overloading works in this case, since you already have a functio=
n that<i> doesn&#39;t</i> use SFINAE based on `is_trivially_copyable`. I do=
n&#39;t know how the rules of overload resolution work when picking between=
 a member function and a non-member one, but it&#39;s really not something =
you should leave up to esoteric rules like that.</div><div><i><br></i></div=
><div>And why is your `bitstream` not using a `vector&lt;std::byte&gt;` as =
what it writes to, or some similar standard library container? It&#39;s ess=
entially just a stream wrapper around a container. Indeed, it would be usef=
ul to be able to have it select between `vector&lt;std::byte&gt;` and `span=
&lt;std::byte&gt;` as needed. And what of writing to/reading from stream bu=
ffers? If you want to write data out to a file, do you have to write it to =
a big memory buffer first?</div><div><br></div><div>Not to mention there&#3=
9;s the lack of allocator support.</div><div><br></div><div>Overall, this i=
s a pretty no-frills serialization system.</div></div><span class=3D"HOEnZb=
"><font color=3D"#888888">

<p></p>

-- <br>
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals&quot; group.<br>
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org" target=3D"_=
blank">std-proposals+unsubscribe@<wbr>isocpp.org</a>.<br>
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:std-proposals@isocpp=
..org" target=3D"_blank">std-proposals@isocpp.org</a>.<br>
To view this discussion on the web visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.c=
om/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/e561abcd-a698-4bb1-b95e-16ef3c53533c%=
40isocpp.org?utm_medium=3Demail&amp;utm_source=3Dfooter" target=3D"_blank">=
https://groups.google.com/a/<wbr>isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-<wbr>proposals/e561=
abcd-a698-4bb1-<wbr>b95e-16ef3c53533c%40isocpp.org</a><wbr>.<br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org">std-proposa=
ls+unsubscribe@isocpp.org</a>.<br />
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:std-proposals@isocpp=
..org">std-proposals@isocpp.org</a>.<br />
To view this discussion on the web visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.c=
om/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/CA%2BfGSbP16ReuJ_cWjQz42JY-Pqr_V3tzci=
jrrUC0npGgHKg-JQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter">h=
ttps://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/CA%2BfGSbP16Reu=
J_cWjQz42JY-Pqr_V3tzcijrrUC0npGgHKg-JQ%40mail.gmail.com</a>.<br />

--089e0820f498070696056464c32e--

.

--94eb2c0b91f07392040564658302
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

> Please stop being so unwelcoming to first-timers!

Agreed.

On 4 February 2018 at 15:40, Ricardo Fabiano de Andrade <
ricardofabianodeandrade@gmail.com> wrote:

> Nicol,
> Please stop being so unwelcoming to first-timers!
> As far as I know being up-to-date to the latest standard is not a
> requirement to post here.
> Nor that's a requirement for good ideas.
> There are several ways to point improvements to the OP and yours are
> always the worst.
> If you goal is to chase away contributions to the future of C++, congrats
> you're getting there!
>
> Kai,
> Unofficially (since I am no ISO committee member, just someone looking
> into C++ improvements), my apologies for the reception to your proposal.
> Even though I don't like the way `is_pod` and `std::byte` issues were
> pointed out they are correct indeed.
> POD is no longer a thing. The concept of trivially copyable supercedes it.
> And std::byte is new standard-sanctioned way to deals with binary data.
> Please inform yourself about them: std::byte
> <http://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/types/byte>.
>
> What concerns me in your proposal are two points:
> 1) Does it comes to invoke undefined behavior while turning objects into a
> stream of bytes and back?
> 2) Are you aware of the reflection proposals for C++? (p0194r4
> <http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2017/p0194r4.html>)
> If so, how do you expect your proposal to interact with it?
>
> Other than that, I don't see the idea itself being inherently bad.
> You also should look into bit_cast
> <http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2016/p0476r1.html>!
>
> Good luck with your proposal.
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 3, 2018 at 8:59 PM, Nicol Bolas <jmckesson@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Saturday, February 3, 2018 at 7:41:48 PM UTC-5, Kai Mast wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi everybody,
>>>
>>> Something that I miss in C++ is an easy way to write types (that aren't
>>> POD) to a buffer, and read them later.
>>>
>>
>> I'm going to pretend that by "POD" you really meant "trivially copyable".
>>
>> Similar to IO and string streams, it would be cool to have a "bitstream"
>>> that does this for me.
>>>
>> The idea would be that folks would only need to overload the << and >>
>>> operators for a custom type.
>>>
>>> I have written such a class for all my own projects. Is this something
>>> that could be a future proposal? Or is there maybe a better way to do
>>> serialization in C++?
>>>
>>> The repo has code and some more examples.
>>> https://github.com/kaimast/bitstream
>>>
>>
>> Well as previously stated, your `is_pod` tests should be replaced with
>> `is_trivially_copyable`.
>>
>> So, you've provided a serialization framework that is essentially "write
>> your own serializers". And the way to specialize the serializer for your
>> user-created types is... what, exactly? What is the specialization point
>> for writing your type to the stream or reading it from the stream? I'm
>> honestly not sure how well `operator<<` overloading works in this case,
>> since you already have a function that* doesn't* use SFINAE based on
>> `is_trivially_copyable`. I don't know how the rules of overload resolution
>> work when picking between a member function and a non-member one, but it's
>> really not something you should leave up to esoteric rules like that.
>>
>> And why is your `bitstream` not using a `vector<std::byte>` as what it
>> writes to, or some similar standard library container? It's essentially
>> just a stream wrapper around a container. Indeed, it would be useful to be
>> able to have it select between `vector<std::byte>` and `span<std::byte>` as
>> needed. And what of writing to/reading from stream buffers? If you want to
>> write data out to a file, do you have to write it to a big memory buffer
>> first?
>>
>> Not to mention there's the lack of allocator support.
>>
>> Overall, this is a pretty no-frills serialization system.
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org.
>> To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/is
>> ocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/e561abcd-a698-4bb1-b95e-
>> 16ef3c53533c%40isocpp.org
>> <https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/e561abcd-a698-4bb1-b95e-16ef3c53533c%40isocpp.org?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>> .
>>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org.
> To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org.
> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/
> isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/CA%2BfGSbP16ReuJ_cWjQz42JY-Pqr_
> V3tzcijrrUC0npGgHKg-JQ%40mail.gmail.com
> <https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/CA%2BfGSbP16ReuJ_cWjQz42JY-Pqr_V3tzcijrrUC0npGgHKg-JQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> .
>

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org.
To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/CALvx3hZ33SNSx6vwz_%2BcpBW6Uqx4UUHsOMbOdrh8Rzu3FNgM2g%40mail.gmail.com.

--94eb2c0b91f07392040564658302
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">&gt;=C2=A0<span style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:a=
rial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:n=
ormal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-a=
lign:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spac=
ing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;tex=
t-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline">Please stop being so =
unwelcoming to first-timers!</span><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);=
font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px;font-style:normal;font-varian=
t-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:=
normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:nor=
mal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-styl=
e:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline"><br></sp=
an></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">Agreed.</span></div></div><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 4 February 2018 =
at 15:40, Ricardo Fabiano de Andrade <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:ricardofabianodeandrade@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">ricardofabianodeandr=
ade@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
yle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div =
dir=3D"ltr">Nicol,<div>Please stop being so unwelcoming to first-timers!</d=
iv><div>As far as I know being up-to-date to the latest standard is not a r=
equirement to post here.</div><div>Nor that&#39;s a requirement for good id=
eas.</div><div>There are several ways to point improvements to the OP and y=
ours are always the worst.</div><div>If you goal is to chase away contribut=
ions to the future of C++, congrats you&#39;re getting there!</div><div><br=
></div><div>Kai,</div><div>Unofficially (since I am no ISO committee member=
, just someone looking into C++ improvements), my apologies for the recepti=
on to your proposal.</div><div>Even though I don&#39;t like the way `is_pod=
` and `std::byte` issues were pointed out they are correct indeed.</div><di=
v>POD is no longer a thing. The concept of trivially copyable supercedes it=
..</div><div>And std::byte is new standard-sanctioned way to deals with bina=
ry data.</div><div>Please inform yourself about them: <a href=3D"http://en.=
cppreference.com/w/cpp/types/byte" target=3D"_blank">std::byte</a>.</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>What concerns me in your proposal are two points:</div><d=
iv>1) Does it comes to invoke undefined behavior while turning objects into=
 a stream of bytes and back?</div><div>2) Are you aware of the reflection p=
roposals for C++? (<a href=3D"http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/p=
apers/2017/p0194r4.html" target=3D"_blank">p0194r4</a>) If so, how do you e=
xpect your proposal to interact with it?</div><div><br></div><div>Other tha=
n that, I don&#39;t see the idea itself being inherently bad.</div><div>You=
 also should look into=C2=A0<a href=3D"http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg=
21/docs/papers/2016/p0476r1.html" target=3D"_blank">bit_cast</a>!</div><div=
><br></div><div>Good luck with your proposal.</div><div><br></div></div><di=
v><div class=3D"h5"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quot=
e">On Sat, Feb 3, 2018 at 8:59 PM, Nicol Bolas <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:jmckesson@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jmckesson@gmail.com</a>&=
gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 =
0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Sat=
urday, February 3, 2018 at 7:41:48 PM UTC-5, Kai Mast wrote:<blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc=
 solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi everybody,</div><div><br>=
</div><div>Something that I miss in C++ is an easy way to write types (that=
 aren&#39;t POD) to a buffer, and read them later.</div></div></blockquote>=
<div><br></div><div>I&#39;m going to pretend that by &quot;POD&quot; you re=
ally meant &quot;trivially copyable&quot;.</div><div><br></div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #=
ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Similar to IO and string =
streams, it would be cool to have a &quot;bitstream&quot; that does this fo=
r me.</div></div></blockquote><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div =
dir=3D"ltr"><div></div><div>The idea would be that folks would only need to=
 overload the &lt;&lt; and &gt;&gt; operators for a custom type.</div><div>=
<br></div><div>I have written such a class for all my own projects. Is this=
 something that could be a future proposal? Or is there maybe a better way =
to do serialization in C++?</div><div><br></div><div>The repo has code and =
some more examples.<br></div><div><a href=3D"https://github.com/kaimast/bit=
stream" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/kaimast/bit<w=
br>stream</a></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Well as previousl=
y stated, your `is_pod` tests should be replaced with `is_trivially_copyabl=
e`.</div><div><br></div><div>So, you&#39;ve provided a serialization framew=
ork that is essentially &quot;write your own serializers&quot;. And the way=
 to specialize the serializer for your user-created types is... what, exact=
ly? What is the specialization point for writing your type to the stream or=
 reading it from the stream? I&#39;m honestly not sure how well `operator&l=
t;&lt;` overloading works in this case, since you already have a function t=
hat<i> doesn&#39;t</i> use SFINAE based on `is_trivially_copyable`. I don&#=
39;t know how the rules of overload resolution work when picking between a =
member function and a non-member one, but it&#39;s really not something you=
 should leave up to esoteric rules like that.</div><div><i><br></i></div><d=
iv>And why is your `bitstream` not using a `vector&lt;std::byte&gt;` as wha=
t it writes to, or some similar standard library container? It&#39;s essent=
ially just a stream wrapper around a container. Indeed, it would be useful =
to be able to have it select between `vector&lt;std::byte&gt;` and `span&lt=
;std::byte&gt;` as needed. And what of writing to/reading from stream buffe=
rs? If you want to write data out to a file, do you have to write it to a b=
ig memory buffer first?</div><div><br></div><div>Not to mention there&#39;s=
 the lack of allocator support.</div><div><br></div><div>Overall, this is a=
 pretty no-frills serialization system.</div></div><span class=3D"m_8632215=
694084381653HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">

<p></p>

-- <br>
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals&quot; group.<br>
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org" target=3D"_=
blank">std-proposals+unsubscribe@isoc<wbr>pp.org</a>.<br>
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:std-proposals@isocpp=
..org" target=3D"_blank">std-proposals@isocpp.org</a>.<br>
To view this discussion on the web visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.c=
om/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/e561abcd-a698-4bb1-b95e-16ef3c53533c%=
40isocpp.org?utm_medium=3Demail&amp;utm_source=3Dfooter" target=3D"_blank">=
https://groups.google.com/a/is<wbr>ocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals<wbr>/e561=
abcd-a698-4bb1-b95e-<wbr>16ef3c53533c%40isocpp.org</a>.<br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

-- <br>
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals&quot; group.<br>
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org" target=3D"_=
blank">std-proposals+unsubscribe@<wbr>isocpp.org</a>.<br>
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:std-proposals@isocpp=
..org" target=3D"_blank">std-proposals@isocpp.org</a>.<br></div></div>
To view this discussion on the web visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.c=
om/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/CA%2BfGSbP16ReuJ_cWjQz42JY-Pqr_V3tzci=
jrrUC0npGgHKg-JQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=3Demail&amp;utm_source=3Dfoote=
r" target=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/a/<wbr>isocpp.org/d/msgid/st=
d-<wbr>proposals/CA%2BfGSbP16ReuJ_<wbr>cWjQz42JY-Pqr_<wbr>V3tzcijrrUC0npGgH=
Kg-JQ%40mail.<wbr>gmail.com</a>.<br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org">std-proposa=
ls+unsubscribe@isocpp.org</a>.<br />
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:std-proposals@isocpp=
..org">std-proposals@isocpp.org</a>.<br />
To view this discussion on the web visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.c=
om/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/CALvx3hZ33SNSx6vwz_%2BcpBW6Uqx4UUHsOM=
bOdrh8Rzu3FNgM2g%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter">h=
ttps://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/CALvx3hZ33SNSx6=
vwz_%2BcpBW6Uqx4UUHsOMbOdrh8Rzu3FNgM2g%40mail.gmail.com</a>.<br />

--94eb2c0b91f07392040564658302--

.

------=_Part_26254_1330932473.1517789025668
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary="----=_Part_26255_291101549.1517789025669"

------=_Part_26255_291101549.1517789025669
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

On Sunday, February 4, 2018 at 10:40:18 AM UTC-5, Ricardo Andrade wrote:
>
> Nicol,
> Please stop being so unwelcoming to first-timers!
>

I didn't notice if he was a first-timer or not. I responded to the quality
of the content, not to the poster of it.

As far as I know being up-to-date to the latest standard is not a
> requirement to post here.
>

You say that like that's a good thing. If someone is going to seriously
suggest that something ought to be changed, is it not reasonable to expect
them to be at least conversant with how it currently works?

If someone comes around and says that the definition of POD should be
expanded to include more types so that they can `memcpy` them around, and
their proposed POD definition mirrors TriviallyCopyable *exactly*, then
that post is a complete waste of everyone's time.

I don't expect complete expertise. We've all been informed of esoteric
rules of C++ that we didn't know beforehand. But TriviallyCopyable is not
esoterica. It's been a part of C++ for six years. The top hit on Google for
"C++ POD" is a StackOverflow question about what they are, and the highest
voted answer explicitly states that the definition was changed in C++11,
linking directly to an explanation of the StandardLayout/TriviallyCopyable
distinction.

I don't expect everyone to know it. But it's hardly unreasonable to say
that if you don't know it, then you probably don't know enough about the
C++ standard to be able to make a serious proposal for changing it.

Nor that's a requirement for good ideas.
>

But we don't review ideas here; we review proposals (that's why it's called
"Future Proposals" and not "Ideas"). Proposals are a lot more than just
ideas.

Nobody is saying that C++ having serialization is a bad idea. But whether
serialization in general is good is irrelevant next to a specific proposal
for serialization. And this proposal is not good.

A good proposal would include motivation. A good proposal would show
research into alternative designs and explain why the presented one is
better. A good proposal would not have such obvious deficiencies in it.

Proposals exist to fix problems. But just because a problem is significant
enough to be fixed does not mean that* any fix* for it is a good thing.

There are several ways to point improvements to the OP and yours are always
> the worst.
> If you goal is to chase away contributions to the future of C++, congrats
> you're getting there!
>

My goal is to improve the proposal by pointing out some of its
deficiencies. At no time did I direct any of my criticism at the poster in
question; it was always directed at their code/proposal. If that causes
"contributors to the future of C++" to be "chased away", I shudder to think
what would happen at a committee meeting.

It should also be noted that serialization is well-trod ground when it
comes to C++. There are many libraries out there which provide
serialization features. A good, well-thought out proposal would actually
talk about them, investigate their design choices, and explain why the
presented design is preferred or superior.

Just look at all of the papers that get submitted to the committee. They're
almost never just "here's this thing, maybe we should standardize it". They
spend lots of time researching different approaches to the problem they're
trying to solve.

Why should the standards of this forum be so much lower than that?

>

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org.
To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/14dffee1-3182-4a60-ab4b-6a52bc4c07b3%40isocpp.org.

------=_Part_26255_291101549.1517789025669
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">On Sunday, February 4, 2018 at 10:40:18 AM UTC-5, Ricardo =
Andrade wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-l=
eft: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"=
>Nicol,<div>Please stop being so unwelcoming to first-timers!</div></div></=
blockquote><div><br></div><div>I didn&#39;t notice if he was a first-timer =
or not. I responded to the quality of the content, not to the poster of it.=
</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;m=
argin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div>As far as I know being up-to-date to the latest standard is n=
ot a requirement to post here.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>=
You say that like that&#39;s a good thing. If someone is going to seriously=
 suggest that something ought to be changed, is it not reasonable to expect=
 them to be at least conversant with how it currently works?</div><div><br>=
</div><div>If someone comes around and says that the definition of POD shou=
ld be expanded to include more types so that they can `memcpy` them around,=
 and their proposed POD definition mirrors TriviallyCopyable <i>exactly</i>=
, then that post is a complete waste of everyone&#39;s time.</div><div><br>=
</div><div>I don&#39;t expect complete expertise. We&#39;ve all been inform=
ed of esoteric rules of C++ that we didn&#39;t know beforehand. But Trivial=
lyCopyable is not esoterica. It&#39;s been a part of C++ for six years. The=
 top hit on Google for &quot;C++ POD&quot; is a StackOverflow question abou=
t what they are, and the highest voted answer explicitly states that the de=
finition was changed in C++11, linking directly to an explanation of the St=
andardLayout/TriviallyCopyable distinction.</div><div><br></div><div>I don&=
#39;t expect everyone to know it. But it&#39;s hardly unreasonable to say t=
hat if you don&#39;t know it, then you probably don&#39;t know enough about=
 the C++ standard to be able to make a serious proposal for changing it.</d=
iv><div><i><br></i></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div =
dir=3D"ltr"><div>Nor that&#39;s a requirement for good ideas.</div></div></=
blockquote><div><br></div><div>But we don&#39;t review ideas here; we revie=
w proposals (that&#39;s why it&#39;s called &quot;Future Proposals&quot; an=
d not &quot;Ideas&quot;). Proposals are a lot more than just ideas.</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>Nobody is saying that C++ having serialization is a bad i=
dea. But whether serialization in general is good is irrelevant next to a s=
pecific proposal for serialization. And this proposal is not good.</div><di=
v><br></div><div>A good proposal would include motivation. A good proposal =
would show research into alternative designs and explain why the presented =
one is better. A good proposal would not have such obvious deficiencies in =
it.</div><div><br></div><div>Proposals exist to fix problems. But just beca=
use a problem is significant enough to be fixed does not mean that<i> any f=
ix</i> for it is a good thing.</div><div><i><b><br></b></i></div><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: =
1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>There are several =
ways to point improvements to the OP and yours are always the worst.</div><=
div>If you goal is to chase away contributions to the future of C++, congra=
ts you&#39;re getting there!</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><d=
iv style=3D"background-color: transparent; border-bottom-color: rgb(34, 34,=
 34); border-bottom-style: none; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-image-out=
set: 0; border-image-repeat: stretch; border-image-slice: 100%; border-imag=
e-source: none; border-image-width: 1; border-left-color: rgb(34, 34, 34); =
border-left-style: none; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(34=
, 34, 34); border-right-style: none; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-co=
lor: rgb(34, 34, 34); border-top-style: none; border-top-width: 0px; color:=
 rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: &amp;quot;Arial&amp;quot;,&amp;quot;Helvetic=
a&amp;quot;,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: =
normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; margin-bottom: 0px; margi=
n-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; orphans: 2; padding-bottom=
: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-align:=
 left; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webk=
it-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;">My goal=
 is to improve the proposal by pointing out some of its deficiencies. At no=
 time did I direct any of my criticism at the poster in question; it was al=
ways directed at their code/proposal. If that causes &quot;contributors to =
the future of C++&quot; to be &quot;chased away&quot;, I shudder to think w=
hat would happen at a committee meeting.</div><div style=3D"background-colo=
r: transparent; border-bottom-color: rgb(34, 34, 34); border-bottom-style: =
none; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-image-outset: 0; border-image-repeat=
: stretch; border-image-slice: 100%; border-image-source: none; border-imag=
e-width: 1; border-left-color: rgb(34, 34, 34); border-left-style: none; bo=
rder-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(34, 34, 34); border-right-sty=
le: none; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(34, 34, 34); borde=
r-top-style: none; border-top-width: 0px; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-fami=
ly: &amp;quot;Arial&amp;quot;,&amp;quot;Helvetica&amp;quot;,sans-serif; fon=
t-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; l=
etter-spacing: normal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: =
0px; margin-top: 0px; orphans: 2; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; p=
adding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-align: left; text-decoration: non=
e; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"><br></div><b></b></div><div>It sho=
uld also be noted that serialization is well-trod ground when it comes to C=
++. There are many libraries out there which provide serialization features=
.. A good, well-thought out proposal would actually talk about them, investi=
gate their design choices, and explain why the presented design is preferre=
d or superior.</div><div><div style=3D"background-color: transparent; borde=
r-bottom-color: rgb(34, 34, 34); border-bottom-style: none; border-bottom-w=
idth: 0px; border-image-outset: 0; border-image-repeat: stretch; border-ima=
ge-slice: 100%; border-image-source: none; border-image-width: 1; border-le=
ft-color: rgb(34, 34, 34); border-left-style: none; border-left-width: 0px;=
 border-right-color: rgb(34, 34, 34); border-right-style: none; border-righ=
t-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(34, 34, 34); border-top-style: none; bo=
rder-top-width: 0px; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: &amp;quot;Arial&a=
mp;quot;,&amp;quot;Helvetica&amp;quot;,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-st=
yle: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal=
; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;=
 orphans: 2; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; pa=
dding-top: 0px; text-align: left; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px;"><br></div><div style=3D"background-color: transparent; =
border-bottom-color: rgb(34, 34, 34); border-bottom-style: none; border-bot=
tom-width: 0px; border-image-outset: 0; border-image-repeat: stretch; borde=
r-image-slice: 100%; border-image-source: none; border-image-width: 1; bord=
er-left-color: rgb(34, 34, 34); border-left-style: none; border-left-width:=
 0px; border-right-color: rgb(34, 34, 34); border-right-style: none; border=
-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(34, 34, 34); border-top-style: non=
e; border-top-width: 0px; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: &amp;quot;Ar=
ial&amp;quot;,&amp;quot;Helvetica&amp;quot;,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; fo=
nt-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: n=
ormal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top:=
 0px; orphans: 2; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0p=
x; padding-top: 0px; text-align: left; text-decoration: none; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: nor=
mal; word-spacing: 0px;">Just look at all of the papers that get submitted =
to the committee. They&#39;re almost never just &quot;here&#39;s this thing=
, maybe we should standardize it&quot;. They spend lots of time researching=
 different approaches to the problem they&#39;re trying to solve.</div><div=
 style=3D"background-color: transparent; border-bottom-color: rgb(34, 34, 3=
4); border-bottom-style: none; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-image-outse=
t: 0; border-image-repeat: stretch; border-image-slice: 100%; border-image-=
source: none; border-image-width: 1; border-left-color: rgb(34, 34, 34); bo=
rder-left-style: none; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(34, =
34, 34); border-right-style: none; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-colo=
r: rgb(34, 34, 34); border-top-style: none; border-top-width: 0px; color: r=
gb(34, 34, 34); font-family: &amp;quot;Arial&amp;quot;,&amp;quot;Helvetica&=
amp;quot;,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: no=
rmal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-=
left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; orphans: 2; padding-bottom: =
0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-align: l=
eft; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit=
-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"><br></div=
><div style=3D"background-color: transparent; border-bottom-color: rgb(34, =
34, 34); border-bottom-style: none; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-image-=
outset: 0; border-image-repeat: stretch; border-image-slice: 100%; border-i=
mage-source: none; border-image-width: 1; border-left-color: rgb(34, 34, 34=
); border-left-style: none; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb=
(34, 34, 34); border-right-style: none; border-right-width: 0px; border-top=
-color: rgb(34, 34, 34); border-top-style: none; border-top-width: 0px; col=
or: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: &amp;quot;Arial&amp;quot;,&amp;quot;Helve=
tica&amp;quot;,sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-varian=
t: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; margin-bottom: 0px; ma=
rgin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; orphans: 2; padding-bot=
tom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px; text-ali=
gn: left; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -w=
ebkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;">Why =
should the standards of this forum be so much lower than that?<br></div></d=
iv><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;=
border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">
</blockquote></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org">std-proposa=
ls+unsubscribe@isocpp.org</a>.<br />
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:std-proposals@isocpp=
..org">std-proposals@isocpp.org</a>.<br />
To view this discussion on the web visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.c=
om/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/14dffee1-3182-4a60-ab4b-6a52bc4c07b3%=
40isocpp.org?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter">https://groups.google.=
com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/14dffee1-3182-4a60-ab4b-6a52bc4c07b3=
%40isocpp.org</a>.<br />

------=_Part_26255_291101549.1517789025669--

------=_Part_26254_1330932473.1517789025668--

.

--001a1147356eaa932e0564737949
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

I dislike making responses like this. It isn't professional. But given that
this reflects my experience, too, I will write it anyway.

On 5 Feb 2018 00:03, "Nicol Bolas" <jmckesson@gmail.com> wrote:

But we don't review ideas here; we review proposals (that's why it's called
"Future Proposals" and not "Ideas"). Proposals are a lot more than just
ideas.


Perhaps you can spread the message to the countless people in online
communities that suggest OPs post to their idea to the C++ proposals group,
saying that it would be a good experience for them. Proposals ARE a lot
more than just ideas, but this is called "FUTURE" proposals, and there is
no "Ideas" forum. It's where proposals go to school so they can grow up in
a good environment, get a good chance at a stable career and a good
retirement plan, not where they get detention for wearing the wrong shoes
on their first day. Maybe this is cause to create a more accessible forum
below this one, or a stricter forum above this one, because there is a wide
net here. And there is a wide net.


A good proposal would include motivation. A good proposal would show
research into alternative designs and explain why the presented one is
better. A good proposal would not have such obvious deficiencies in it.


Two points. First, it would not have harmed you to have asked those as
questions clearly in the first place. Second, your attitude after still
discovering that the OP is new is unchanged. Leave your ego at the keyboard
for crying out loud. It isn't what you're saying, which in most places I
agree with, it's how you're saying it; it doesn't make for an encouraging
environment, outside of ancient Sparta.

My goal is to improve the proposal by pointing out some of its
deficiencies. At no time did I direct any of my criticism at the poster in
question; it was always directed at their code/proposal.


If you state that posts like this a waste of everyone's time at all
reflects that attitude, you are wrong.

Why should the standards of this forum be so much lower than that?


Because this isn't the standards committee. In fact, proposals that are
pretty much complete get on here and are either ignored or there are just a
couple of messages saying "yep, go for it" (for example, mihailnajdenov's
awesome function_view post). If you want the standards of the committee
then sit on the damned thing. But if you want to help get ideas to proposal
stage, even if they are rough around the edges, then this is the place to
be. I agree that we need to certain standards, but we can't have people
being put off from posting proposals. It's quite easy to ignore a post if
it is below you, there are plenty of others who enjoy helping.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org.
To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/CAC%2B0CCN-zxD5oMewcpfmJ9yo548BbXxw4DdM4NjgBBO78gccvg%40mail.gmail.com.

--001a1147356eaa932e0564737949
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto"><div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote=
" dir=3D"auto">I dislike making responses like this. It isn&#39;t professio=
nal. But given that this reflects my experience, too, I will write it anywa=
y.</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote" dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div class=3D"gma=
il_quote">On 5 Feb 2018 00:03, &quot;Nicol Bolas&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:jmckesson@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jmckesson@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:=
<blockquote class=3D"m_-3611723432295717179quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8e=
x;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>But we=
 don&#39;t review ideas here; we review proposals (that&#39;s why it&#39;s =
called &quot;Future Proposals&quot; and not &quot;Ideas&quot;). Proposals a=
re a lot more than just ideas.</div></div></blockquote></div></div></div><d=
iv dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Perhaps you can spread the mess=
age to the countless people in online communities that suggest OPs post to =
their idea to the C++ proposals group, saying that it would be a good exper=
ience for them. Proposals ARE a lot more than just ideas, but this is calle=
d &quot;FUTURE&quot; proposals, and there is no &quot;Ideas&quot; forum. It=
&#39;s where proposals go to school so they can grow up in a good environme=
nt, get a good chance at a stable career and a good retirement plan, not wh=
ere they get detention for wearing the wrong shoes on their first day. Mayb=
e this is cause to create a more accessible forum below this one, or a stri=
cter forum above this one, because there is a wide net here. And there is a=
 wide net.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"=
gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"m_-3611723432295717179quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></d=
iv><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<blockquote class=3D"m_-3611723432295717179quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8e=
x;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>A good=
 proposal would include motivation. A good proposal would show research int=
o alternative designs and explain why the presented one is better. A good p=
roposal would not have such obvious deficiencies in it.</div></div></blockq=
uote></div></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Two po=
ints. First, it would not have harmed you to have asked those as questions =
clearly in the first place. Second, your attitude after still discovering t=
hat the OP is new is unchanged. Leave your ego at the keyboard for crying o=
ut loud. It isn&#39;t what you&#39;re saying, which in most places I agree =
with, it&#39;s how you&#39;re saying it; it doesn&#39;t make for an encoura=
ging environment, outside of ancient Sparta.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></d=
iv><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<blockquote class=3D"m_-3611723432295717179quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8e=
x;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>My goa=
l is to improve the proposal by pointing out some of its deficiencies. At n=
o time did I direct any of my criticism at the poster in question; it was a=
lways directed at their code/proposal.</div></div></blockquote></div></div>=
</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">If you state that posts=
 like this a waste of everyone&#39;s time at all reflects that attitude, yo=
u are wrong.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=
=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"m_-3611723=
432295717179quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pa=
dding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Why should the standards of this forum be =
so much lower than that?<br></div></blockquote></div></div></div><div dir=
=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"m_-3611723432295717179quote" style=3D=
"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div><div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div><div dir=
=3D"auto">Because this isn&#39;t the standards committee. In fact, proposal=
s that are pretty much complete get on here and are either ignored or there=
 are just a couple of messages saying &quot;yep, go for it&quot; (for examp=
le, mihailnajdenov&#39;s awesome function_view post). If you want the stand=
ards of the committee then sit on the damned thing. But if you want to help=
 get ideas to proposal stage, even if they are rough around the edges, then=
 this is the place to be. I agree that we need to certain standards, but we=
 can&#39;t have people being put off from posting proposals. It&#39;s quite=
 easy to ignore a post if it is below you, there are plenty of others who e=
njoy helping.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><=
/div></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org">std-proposa=
ls+unsubscribe@isocpp.org</a>.<br />
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:std-proposals@isocpp=
..org">std-proposals@isocpp.org</a>.<br />
To view this discussion on the web visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.c=
om/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/CAC%2B0CCN-zxD5oMewcpfmJ9yo548BbXxw4D=
dM4NjgBBO78gccvg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter">h=
ttps://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/CAC%2B0CCN-zxD5=
oMewcpfmJ9yo548BbXxw4DdM4NjgBBO78gccvg%40mail.gmail.com</a>.<br />

--001a1147356eaa932e0564737949--

.

------=_Part_30595_1135813024.1517829558190
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary="----=_Part_30596_1976117203.1517829558190"

------=_Part_30596_1976117203.1517829558190
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Nicely put. It's a viewpoint I share. Thanks for taking the time to
articulate this.

On Monday, February 5, 2018 at 10:13:30 PM UTC+13, Jake Arkinstall wrote:
>
> I dislike making responses like this. It isn't professional. But given
> that this reflects my experience, too, I will write it anyway.
>
> On 5 Feb 2018 00:03, "Nicol Bolas" <jmck...@gmail.com <javascript:>>
> wrote:
>
> But we don't review ideas here; we review proposals (that's why it's
> called "Future Proposals" and not "Ideas"). Proposals are a lot more than
> just ideas.
>
>
> Perhaps you can spread the message to the countless people in online
> communities that suggest OPs post to their idea to the C++ proposals group,
> saying that it would be a good experience for them. Proposals ARE a lot
> more than just ideas, but this is called "FUTURE" proposals, and there is
> no "Ideas" forum. It's where proposals go to school so they can grow up in
> a good environment, get a good chance at a stable career and a good
> retirement plan, not where they get detention for wearing the wrong shoes
> on their first day. Maybe this is cause to create a more accessible forum
> below this one, or a stricter forum above this one, because there is a wide
> net here. And there is a wide net.
>
>
> A good proposal would include motivation. A good proposal would show
> research into alternative designs and explain why the presented one is
> better. A good proposal would not have such obvious deficiencies in it.
>
>
> Two points. First, it would not have harmed you to have asked those as
> questions clearly in the first place. Second, your attitude after still
> discovering that the OP is new is unchanged. Leave your ego at the keyboard
> for crying out loud. It isn't what you're saying, which in most places I
> agree with, it's how you're saying it; it doesn't make for an encouraging
> environment, outside of ancient Sparta.
>
> My goal is to improve the proposal by pointing out some of its
> deficiencies. At no time did I direct any of my criticism at the poster in
> question; it was always directed at their code/proposal.
>
>
> If you state that posts like this a waste of everyone's time at all
> reflects that attitude, you are wrong.
>
> Why should the standards of this forum be so much lower than that?
>
>
> Because this isn't the standards committee. In fact, proposals that are
> pretty much complete get on here and are either ignored or there are just a
> couple of messages saying "yep, go for it" (for example, mihailnajdenov's
> awesome function_view post). If you want the standards of the committee
> then sit on the damned thing. But if you want to help get ideas to proposal
> stage, even if they are rough around the edges, then this is the place to
> be. I agree that we need to certain standards, but we can't have people
> being put off from posting proposals. It's quite easy to ignore a post if
> it is below you, there are plenty of others who enjoy helping.
>
>

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org.
To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/6ab57110-4efd-497b-ae9d-f6c31c6dd4a9%40isocpp.org.

------=_Part_30596_1976117203.1517829558190
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Nicely put. It&#39;s a viewpoint I share. Thanks for takin=
g the time to articulate=C2=A0this.<br><br>On Monday, February 5, 2018 at 1=
0:13:30 PM UTC+13, Jake Arkinstall wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; border-left-color: r=
gb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid;"><div =
dir=3D"auto"><div><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote" dir=3D"auto">I dislike ma=
king responses like this. It isn&#39;t professional. But given that this re=
flects my experience, too, I will write it anyway.</div><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote" dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 5 Feb 2018 00:=
03, &quot;Nicol Bolas&quot; &lt;<a onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;javascri=
pt:&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;javascript:&#39;;return =
true;" href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" gdf-obfuscat=
ed-mailto=3D"VUPcpnA4BwAJ">jmck...@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<blockquote styl=
e=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; border-left-color: rgb(2=
04, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid;"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div>But we don&#39;t review ideas here; we review proposals (that=
&#39;s why it&#39;s called &quot;Future Proposals&quot; and not &quot;Ideas=
&quot;). Proposals are a lot more than just ideas.</div></div></blockquote>=
</div></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Perhaps you=
 can spread the message to the countless people in online communities that =
suggest OPs post to their idea to the C++ proposals group, saying that it w=
ould be a good experience for them. Proposals ARE a lot more than just idea=
s, but this is called &quot;FUTURE&quot; proposals, and there is no &quot;I=
deas&quot; forum. It&#39;s where proposals go to school so they can grow up=
 in a good environment, get a good chance at a stable career and a good ret=
irement plan, not where they get detention for wearing the wrong shoes on t=
heir first day. Maybe this is cause to create a more accessible forum below=
 this one, or a stricter forum above this one, because there is a wide net =
here. And there is a wide net.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><div><div class=3D"gm=
ail_quote"><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1e=
x; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1px; border-le=
ft-style: solid;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div></div></div></blockquote></div></di=
v></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div><div class=3D"gm=
ail_quote"><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1e=
x; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1px; border-le=
ft-style: solid;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>A good proposal would include motiv=
ation. A good proposal would show research into alternative designs and exp=
lain why the presented one is better. A good proposal would not have such o=
bvious deficiencies in it.</div></div></blockquote></div></div></div><div d=
ir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Two points. First, it would not hav=
e harmed you to have asked those as questions clearly in the first place. S=
econd, your attitude after still discovering that the OP is new is unchange=
d. Leave your ego at the keyboard for crying out loud. It isn&#39;t what yo=
u&#39;re saying, which in most places I agree with, it&#39;s how you&#39;re=
 saying it; it doesn&#39;t make for an encouraging environment, outside of =
ancient Sparta.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div><di=
v class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; pad=
ding-left: 1ex; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1=
px; border-left-style: solid;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>My goal is to improve =
the proposal by pointing out some of its deficiencies. At no time did I dir=
ect any of my criticism at the poster in question; it was always directed a=
t their code/proposal.</div></div></blockquote></div></div></div><div dir=
=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">If you state that posts like this a w=
aste of everyone&#39;s time at all reflects that attitude, you are wrong.</=
div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div><div class=3D"gmail_=
quote"><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; b=
order-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1px; border-left-s=
tyle: solid;"><div dir=3D"ltr">Why should the standards of this forum be so=
 much lower than that?<br></div></blockquote></div></div></div><div dir=3D"=
auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquo=
te style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; border-left-color=
: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid;"><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr"><div><div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div><=
div dir=3D"auto">Because this isn&#39;t the standards committee. In fact, p=
roposals that are pretty much complete get on here and are either ignored o=
r there are just a couple of messages saying &quot;yep, go for it&quot; (fo=
r example, mihailnajdenov&#39;s awesome function_view post). If you want th=
e standards of the committee then sit on the damned thing. But if you want =
to help get ideas to proposal stage, even if they are rough around the edge=
s, then this is the place to be. I agree that we need to certain standards,=
 but we can&#39;t have people being put off from posting proposals. It&#39;=
s quite easy to ignore a post if it is below you, there are plenty of other=
s who enjoy helping.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><div><br></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org">std-proposa=
ls+unsubscribe@isocpp.org</a>.<br />
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:std-proposals@isocpp=
..org">std-proposals@isocpp.org</a>.<br />
To view this discussion on the web visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.c=
om/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/6ab57110-4efd-497b-ae9d-f6c31c6dd4a9%=
40isocpp.org?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter">https://groups.google.=
com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/6ab57110-4efd-497b-ae9d-f6c31c6dd4a9=
%40isocpp.org</a>.<br />

------=_Part_30596_1976117203.1517829558190--

------=_Part_30595_1135813024.1517829558190--

.

------=_Part_3969_1781316682.1517872153046
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary="----=_Part_3970_1340851720.1517872153046"

------=_Part_3970_1340851720.1517872153046
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

This is getting quite off-topic, but as a long time-reader of these forums,
I have felt the need to intervene in the face of Nicol's attitude on a
number of occasions. Now is as good a time as any...

To start with I would refrain from accusing him/her of having an oversized
ego. This is not helping, and I'm not sure this is actually true. The way I
see it, Nicol simply seems to have abstracted away the fact that the people
who post here are not instances of the ProposalWriter class, but plain
human beings. I don't think Nicol is the only one around here to make this
mistake (although no one posts nearly half as often). That would be fine if
the point of these forums was to present proposals for inspection and carve
them out until they are perfect jewels, ready to be merged in the C++
standard. In fact, I would be reassured to know that people playing this
role are as knowledgeable and keen eyed as Nicol when it comes to
understanding C++ and finding flaws in said proposals. But as has been
pointed out already, this is ultimately what the committee is for, and it
is not clear to me that this is true of these forums as well.

That being said, the tone that you employ, Nicol, is indeed aggressive.
Whether you mean it or not, that is how people perceive it (myself
included). To draw one example from your first message in this thread,
starting off by "pretending" something about what the OP wrote is not the
nice way to go (regardless of who they are). You could have "assumed"
instead, and phrased it as a question instead of a peremptory assertion. It
is this type of small details that I have seen accumulating in most
messages you write. And in the end they matter: rather than reading your
arguments and think "oh yeah he's right", my first reaction is to be angry
at you for seeming rude without provocation. You *can* be blunt and
straight to the point, don't get me wrong, there is no need for flowers and
cushions. But I think you cannot afford to be aggressive; adopting such
stance is not going to get the best out of anyone, and is not going get
your point through any better.

I hope you see the point, and that you still keep sharing your knowledge
and your time with the people around here.


On Monday, February 5, 2018 at 10:13:30 AM UTC+1, Jake Arkinstall wrote:
>
> I dislike making responses like this. It isn't professional. But given
> that this reflects my experience, too, I will write it anyway.
>
> On 5 Feb 2018 00:03, "Nicol Bolas" <jm...n@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> But we don't review ideas here; we review proposals (that's why it's
> called "Future Proposals" and not "Ideas"). Proposals are a lot more than
> just ideas.
>
>
> Perhaps you can spread the message to the countless people in online
> communities that suggest OPs post to their idea to the C++ proposals group,
> saying that it would be a good experience for them. Proposals ARE a lot
> more than just ideas, but this is called "FUTURE" proposals, and there is
> no "Ideas" forum. It's where proposals go to school so they can grow up in
> a good environment, get a good chance at a stable career and a good
> retirement plan, not where they get detention for wearing the wrong shoes
> on their first day. Maybe this is cause to create a more accessible forum
> below this one, or a stricter forum above this one, because there is a wide
> net here. And there is a wide net.
>
>
> A good proposal would include motivation. A good proposal would show
> research into alternative designs and explain why the presented one is
> better. A good proposal would not have such obvious deficiencies in it.
>
>
> Two points. First, it would not have harmed you to have asked those as
> questions clearly in the first place. Second, your attitude after still
> discovering that the OP is new is unchanged. Leave your ego at the keyboard
> for crying out loud. It isn't what you're saying, which in most places I
> agree with, it's how you're saying it; it doesn't make for an encouraging
> environment, outside of ancient Sparta.
>
> My goal is to improve the proposal by pointing out some of its
> deficiencies. At no time did I direct any of my criticism at the poster in
> question; it was always directed at their code/proposal.
>
>
> If you state that posts like this a waste of everyone's time at all
> reflects that attitude, you are wrong.
>
> Why should the standards of this forum be so much lower than that?
>
>
> Because this isn't the standards committee. In fact, proposals that are
> pretty much complete get on here and are either ignored or there are just a
> couple of messages saying "yep, go for it" (for example, mihailnajdenov's
> awesome function_view post). If you want the standards of the committee
> then sit on the damned thing. But if you want to help get ideas to proposal
> stage, even if they are rough around the edges, then this is the place to
> be. I agree that we need to certain standards, but we can't have people
> being put off from posting proposals. It's quite easy to ignore a post if
> it is below you, there are plenty of others who enjoy helping.
>
>

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org.
To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/301ce4be-948f-4f89-8c57-4e5f7b87193e%40isocpp.org.

------=_Part_3970_1340851720.1517872153046
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">This is getting quite off-topic, but as a long time-reader=
 of these forums, I have felt the need to intervene in the face of Nicol&#3=
9;s attitude on a number of occasions. Now is as good a time as any...<br><=
br>To start with I would refrain from accusing him/her of having an oversiz=
ed ego. This is not helping, and I&#39;m not sure this is actually true. Th=
e way I see it, Nicol simply seems to have abstracted away the fact that th=
e people who post here are not instances of the ProposalWriter class, but p=
lain human beings. I don&#39;t think Nicol is the only one around here to m=
ake this mistake (although no one posts nearly half as often). That would b=
e fine if the point of these forums was to present proposals for inspection=
 and carve them out until they are perfect jewels, ready to be merged in th=
e C++ standard. In fact, I would be reassured to know that people playing t=
his role are as knowledgeable and keen eyed as Nicol when it comes to under=
standing C++ and finding flaws in said proposals. But as has been pointed o=
ut already, this is ultimately what the committee is for, and it is not cle=
ar to me that this is true of these forums as well.<br><br>That being said,=
 the tone that you employ, Nicol, is indeed aggressive. Whether you mean it=
 or not, that is how people perceive it (myself included). To draw one exam=
ple from your first message in this thread, starting off by &quot;pretendin=
g&quot; something about what the OP wrote is not the nice way to go (regard=
less of who they are). You could have &quot;assumed&quot; instead, and phra=
sed it as a question instead of a peremptory assertion. It is this type of =
small details that I have seen accumulating in most messages you write. And=
 in the end they matter: rather than reading your arguments and think &quot=
;oh yeah he&#39;s right&quot;, my first reaction is to be angry at you for =
seeming rude without provocation. You <i>can</i> be blunt and straight to t=
he point, don&#39;t get me wrong, there is no need for flowers and cushions=
.. But I think you cannot afford to be aggressive; adopting such stance is n=
ot going to get the best out of anyone, and is not going get your point thr=
ough any better.<br><br>I hope you see the point, and that you still keep s=
haring your knowledge and your time with the people around here.<br><br><br=
>On Monday, February 5, 2018 at 10:13:30 AM UTC+1, Jake Arkinstall wrote:<b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;borde=
r-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"auto"><div><div><div=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" dir=3D"auto">I dislike making responses like this. I=
t isn&#39;t professional. But given that this reflects my experience, too, =
I will write it anyway.</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote" dir=3D"auto"><br></=
div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 5 Feb 2018 00:03, &quot;Nicol Bolas&quot;=
 &lt;jm...n@gmail.com&gt; wrote:<blockquote style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bord=
er-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>But we don&#=
39;t review ideas here; we review proposals (that&#39;s why it&#39;s called=
 &quot;Future Proposals&quot; and not &quot;Ideas&quot;). Proposals are a l=
ot more than just ideas.</div></div></blockquote></div></div></div><div dir=
=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Perhaps you can spread the message to=
 the countless people in online communities that suggest OPs post to their =
idea to the C++ proposals group, saying that it would be a good experience =
for them. Proposals ARE a lot more than just ideas, but this is called &quo=
t;FUTURE&quot; proposals, and there is no &quot;Ideas&quot; forum. It&#39;s=
 where proposals go to school so they can grow up in a good environment, ge=
t a good chance at a stable career and a good retirement plan, not where th=
ey get detention for wearing the wrong shoes on their first day. Maybe this=
 is cause to create a more accessible forum below this one, or a stricter f=
orum above this one, because there is a wide net here. And there is a wide =
net.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote sty=
le=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div><div dir=3D"auto=
"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote s=
tyle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr"><div>A good proposal would include motivation. A good proposal=
 would show research into alternative designs and explain why the presented=
 one is better. A good proposal would not have such obvious deficiencies in=
 it.</div></div></blockquote></div></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>=
<div dir=3D"auto">Two points. First, it would not have harmed you to have a=
sked those as questions clearly in the first place. Second, your attitude a=
fter still discovering that the OP is new is unchanged. Leave your ego at t=
he keyboard for crying out loud. It isn&#39;t what you&#39;re saying, which=
 in most places I agree with, it&#39;s how you&#39;re saying it; it doesn&#=
39;t make for an encouraging environment, outside of ancient Sparta.</div><=
div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote=
"><blockquote style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding=
-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>My goal is to improve the proposal by poin=
ting out some of its deficiencies. At no time did I direct any of my critic=
ism at the poster in question; it was always directed at their code/proposa=
l.</div></div></blockquote></div></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><d=
iv dir=3D"auto">If you state that posts like this a waste of everyone&#39;s=
 time at all reflects that attitude, you are wrong.</div><div dir=3D"auto">=
<br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote sty=
le=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr">Why should the standards of this forum be so much lower than tha=
t?<br></div></blockquote></div></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div=
 dir=3D"auto"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote style=3D"margin:0=
 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><di=
v><div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div><div dir=3D"auto">B=
ecause this isn&#39;t the standards committee. In fact, proposals that are =
pretty much complete get on here and are either ignored or there are just a=
 couple of messages saying &quot;yep, go for it&quot; (for example, mihailn=
ajdenov&#39;s awesome function_view post). If you want the standards of the=
 committee then sit on the damned thing. But if you want to help get ideas =
to proposal stage, even if they are rough around the edges, then this is th=
e place to be. I agree that we need to certain standards, but we can&#39;t =
have people being put off from posting proposals. It&#39;s quite easy to ig=
nore a post if it is below you, there are plenty of others who enjoy helpin=
g.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><div><br></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org">std-proposa=
ls+unsubscribe@isocpp.org</a>.<br />
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:std-proposals@isocpp=
..org">std-proposals@isocpp.org</a>.<br />
To view this discussion on the web visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.c=
om/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/301ce4be-948f-4f89-8c57-4e5f7b87193e%=
40isocpp.org?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter">https://groups.google.=
com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/301ce4be-948f-4f89-8c57-4e5f7b87193e=
%40isocpp.org</a>.<br />

------=_Part_3970_1340851720.1517872153046--

------=_Part_3969_1781316682.1517872153046--

.

------=_Part_5141_461989195.1517930927091
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary="----=_Part_5142_1873367984.1517930927092"

------=_Part_5142_1873367984.1517930927092
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Thanks for your courage to constructively talk about this whole topic. I
mostly agree.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org.
To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/34d6bf98-7703-4e4c-b864-0a5b57d2a91b%40isocpp.org.

------=_Part_5142_1873367984.1517930927092
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Thanks for your courage to=C2=A0constructively talk about =
this whole topic. I mostly agree.<br></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org">std-proposa=
ls+unsubscribe@isocpp.org</a>.<br />
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:std-proposals@isocpp=
..org">std-proposals@isocpp.org</a>.<br />
To view this discussion on the web visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.c=
om/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/34d6bf98-7703-4e4c-b864-0a5b57d2a91b%=
40isocpp.org?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter">https://groups.google.=
com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/34d6bf98-7703-4e4c-b864-0a5b57d2a91b=
%40isocpp.org</a>.<br />

------=_Part_5142_1873367984.1517930927092--

------=_Part_5141_461989195.1517930927091--

.

------=_Part_2342_565551647.1518904862319
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary="----=_Part_2343_711206674.1518904862319"

------=_Part_2343_711206674.1518904862319
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

For serialization to work across platforms it would also need to convert
the data members from/to an intermediary format. So it would need to take
into account differences in endianness, integer/floating point
representation and size, struct padding, etc. Also classes with
pointer/reference data members may be trivially copiable, bit cannot be
serialized by makin

On Sunday, February 4, 2018 at 1:41:48 AM UTC+1, Kai Mast wrote:
>
> Hi everybody,
>
> Something that I miss in C++ is an easy way to write types (that aren't
> POD) to a buffer, and read them later.
>
> Similar to IO and string streams, it would be cool to have a "bitstream"
> that does this for me.
> The idea would be that folks would only need to overload the << and >>
> operators for a custom type.
>
> I have written such a class for all my own projects. Is this something
> that could be a future proposal? Or is there maybe a better way to do
> serialization in C++?
>
> The repo has code and some more examples.
> https://github.com/kaimast/bitstream
>
> Thanks,
> Kai
>
> (And sorry if this has already been suggested or there is a feature in the
> works that I don't know of that provides a similar feature.)
>

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org.
To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/f55765ea-f496-4704-9255-5f01caaf0fff%40isocpp.org.

------=_Part_2343_711206674.1518904862319
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">For serialization to work across platforms it would also n=
eed to convert the data members from/to an intermediary format. So it would=
 need to take into account differences in endianness, integer/floating poin=
t representation and size, struct padding, etc. Also classes with pointer/r=
eference data members may be trivially copiable, bit cannot be serialized b=
y makin=C2=A0<br><br>On Sunday, February 4, 2018 at 1:41:48 AM UTC+1, Kai M=
ast wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left:=
 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><di=
v>Hi everybody,</div><div><br></div><div>Something that I miss in C++ is an=
 easy way to write types (that aren&#39;t POD) to a buffer, and read them l=
ater.</div><div><br></div><div>Similar to IO and string streams, it would b=
e cool to have a &quot;bitstream&quot; that does this for me. <br></div><di=
v>The idea would be that folks would only need to overload the &lt;&lt; and=
 &gt;&gt; operators for a custom type.</div><div><br></div><div>I have writ=
ten such a class for all my own projects. Is this something that could be a=
 future proposal? Or is there maybe a better way to do serialization in C++=
?</div><div><br></div><div>The repo has code and some more examples.<br></d=
iv><div><a href=3D"https://github.com/kaimast/bitstream" target=3D"_blank" =
rel=3D"nofollow" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://www.google.com/url=
?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fkaimast%2Fbitstream\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d=
1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNFxRmotVxSD4dazgVm_2Q7EIh4mwg&#39;;return true;" onclick=
=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fgithub.c=
om%2Fkaimast%2Fbitstream\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNFxRmotVxSD=
4dazgVm_2Q7EIh4mwg&#39;;return true;">https://github.com/kaimast/<wbr>bitst=
ream</a></div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,<br>Kai<br></div><div><br></div><d=
iv>(And sorry if this has already been suggested or there is a feature in t=
he works that I don&#39;t know of that provides a similar feature.)</div></=
div></blockquote></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org">std-proposa=
ls+unsubscribe@isocpp.org</a>.<br />
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:std-proposals@isocpp=
..org">std-proposals@isocpp.org</a>.<br />
To view this discussion on the web visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.c=
om/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/f55765ea-f496-4704-9255-5f01caaf0fff%=
40isocpp.org?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter">https://groups.google.=
com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/f55765ea-f496-4704-9255-5f01caaf0fff=
%40isocpp.org</a>.<br />

------=_Part_2343_711206674.1518904862319--

------=_Part_2342_565551647.1518904862319--

.

------=_Part_9279_1779526116.1520890340982
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary="----=_Part_9280_1295035461.1520890340982"

------=_Part_9280_1295035461.1520890340982
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

There are plenty of frameworks that do exactly that, you might want to take
a look at some, for example this one
is an easy read and single header like
yours: https://github.com/eyalz800/serializer

On Sunday, February 4, 2018 at 2:41:48 AM UTC+2, Kai Mast wrote:
>
> Hi everybody,
>
> Something that I miss in C++ is an easy way to write types (that aren't
> POD) to a buffer, and read them later.
>
> Similar to IO and string streams, it would be cool to have a "bitstream"
> that does this for me.
> The idea would be that folks would only need to overload the << and >>
> operators for a custom type.
>
> I have written such a class for all my own projects. Is this something
> that could be a future proposal? Or is there maybe a better way to do
> serialization in C++?
>
> The repo has code and some more examples.
> https://github.com/kaimast/bitstream
>
> Thanks,
> Kai
>
> (And sorry if this has already been suggested or there is a feature in the
> works that I don't know of that provides a similar feature.)
>

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org.
To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/ecbc6391-8827-415c-b3cf-871a5ceda9e4%40isocpp.org.

------=_Part_9280_1295035461.1520890340982
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">There are plenty of frameworks that do exactly that, you m=
ight want to take a look at some, for example this one<div>is an easy read =
and single header like yours:=C2=A0https://github.com/eyalz800/serializer<b=
r><br>On Sunday, February 4, 2018 at 2:41:48 AM UTC+2, Kai Mast wrote:<bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-l=
eft: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi everybody,=
</div><div><br></div><div>Something that I miss in C++ is an easy way to wr=
ite types (that aren&#39;t POD) to a buffer, and read them later.</div><div=
><br></div><div>Similar to IO and string streams, it would be cool to have =
a &quot;bitstream&quot; that does this for me. <br></div><div>The idea woul=
d be that folks would only need to overload the &lt;&lt; and &gt;&gt; opera=
tors for a custom type.</div><div><br></div><div>I have written such a clas=
s for all my own projects. Is this something that could be a future proposa=
l? Or is there maybe a better way to do serialization in C++?</div><div><br=
></div><div>The repo has code and some more examples.<br></div><div><a href=
=3D"https://github.com/kaimast/bitstream" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow=
" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%=
2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fkaimast%2Fbitstream\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQ=
jCNFxRmotVxSD4dazgVm_2Q7EIh4mwg&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&=
#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fkaimast%2Fbi=
tstream\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNFxRmotVxSD4dazgVm_2Q7EIh4mw=
g&#39;;return true;">https://github.com/kaimast/<wbr>bitstream</a></div><di=
v><br></div><div>Thanks,<br>Kai<br></div><div><br></div><div>(And sorry if =
this has already been suggested or there is a feature in the works that I d=
on&#39;t know of that provides a similar feature.)</div></div></blockquote>=
</div></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org">std-proposa=
ls+unsubscribe@isocpp.org</a>.<br />
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:std-proposals@isocpp=
..org">std-proposals@isocpp.org</a>.<br />
To view this discussion on the web visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.c=
om/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/ecbc6391-8827-415c-b3cf-871a5ceda9e4%=
40isocpp.org?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter">https://groups.google.=
com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/ecbc6391-8827-415c-b3cf-871a5ceda9e4=
%40isocpp.org</a>.<br />

------=_Part_9280_1295035461.1520890340982--

------=_Part_9279_1779526116.1520890340982--

.