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Hello,

I need a little clarification on the proposal submission process. I'm sorry
if this has been answered already, but I could not find it on the forum.

I read the explanation for how to make a submission from here
https://isocpp.org/std/submit-a-proposal but it's unclear. It says that one
should post the idea here, then draft a proposal, post that here, iterate
and improve it until it's in a mature form that can be submitted. And then
what? It does not say where or how to send the proposal. There is another
document
https://isocpp.org/std/standing-documents/sd-7-mailing-procedures-and-how-to-write-papers
that is for WG21 committee members only.

So where do I send a proposal?

Thank you,
Marius

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hello,</div><div><br></div><div>I need a little clari=
fication on the proposal submission process. I&#39;m sorry if this has been=
 answered already, but I could not find it on the forum.</div><div><br></di=
v><div>I read the explanation for how to make a submission from here <a hre=
f=3D"https://isocpp.org/std/submit-a-proposal">https://isocpp.org/std/submi=
t-a-proposal</a>=C2=A0but it&#39;s unclear. It says that one should post th=
e idea here, then draft a proposal, post that here, iterate and improve it =
until it&#39;s in a mature form that can be submitted. And then what? It do=
es not say where or how to send the proposal. There is another document=C2=
=A0<a href=3D"https://isocpp.org/std/standing-documents/sd-7-mailing-proced=
ures-and-how-to-write-papers">https://isocpp.org/std/standing-documents/sd-=
7-mailing-procedures-and-how-to-write-papers</a> that is for WG21 committee=
 members only.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>So where do I send a proposal=
?</div><div><br></div><div>Thank you,</div><div>Marius</div></div>

<p></p>

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.

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Unless things have changed recently, despite what that second document=20
states, submissions are accepted from non-members per the described=20
procedures.=C2=A0 Perhaps Hal would be willing to clarify.

Tom.

On 02/08/2018 02:33 AM, marius.bancila@visma.com wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I need a little clarification on the proposal submission process. I'm=20
> sorry if this has been answered already, but I could not find it on=20
> the forum.
>
> I read the explanation for how to make a submission from here=20
> https://isocpp.org/std/submit-a-proposal=C2=A0but it's unclear. It says=
=20
> that one should post the idea here, then draft a proposal, post that=20
> here, iterate and improve it until it's in a mature form that can be=20
> submitted. And then what? It does not say where or how to send the=20
> proposal. There is another document=20
> https://isocpp.org/std/standing-documents/sd-7-mailing-procedures-and-how=
-to-write-papers=20
> that is for WG21 committee members only.
>
> So where do I send a proposal?
>
> Thank you,
> Marius
> --=20
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google=20
> Groups "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send=20
> an email to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org=20
> <mailto:std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org>.
> To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org=20
> <mailto:std-proposals@isocpp.org>.
> To view this discussion on the web visit=20
> https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/f900bd92-c0f=
7-4b80-bd6e-d754d478f68c%40isocpp.org=20
> <https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/f900bd92-c0=
f7-4b80-bd6e-d754d478f68c%40isocpp.org?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfoot=
er>.


--=20
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..net.

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<html>
  <head>
    <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8=
">
  </head>
  <body text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
    <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">Unless things have changed recently,
      despite what that second document states, submissions are accepted
      from non-members per the described procedures.=C2=A0 Perhaps Hal woul=
d
      be willing to clarify.<br>
      <br>
      Tom.<br>
      <br>
      On 02/08/2018 02:33 AM, <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D=
"mailto:marius.bancila@visma.com">marius.bancila@visma.com</a> wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite"
      cite=3D"mid:f900bd92-c0f7-4b80-bd6e-d754d478f68c@isocpp.org">
      <div dir=3D"ltr">
        <div>Hello,</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>I need a little clarification on the proposal submission
          process. I'm sorry if this has been answered already, but I
          could not find it on the forum.</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>I read the explanation for how to make a submission from
          here <a href=3D"https://isocpp.org/std/submit-a-proposal"
            moz-do-not-send=3D"true">https://isocpp.org/std/submit-a-propos=
al</a>=C2=A0but
          it's unclear. It says that one should post the idea here, then
          draft a proposal, post that here, iterate and improve it until
          it's in a mature form that can be submitted. And then what? It
          does not say where or how to send the proposal. There is
          another document=C2=A0<a
href=3D"https://isocpp.org/std/standing-documents/sd-7-mailing-procedures-a=
nd-how-to-write-papers"
            moz-do-not-send=3D"true">https://isocpp.org/std/standing-docume=
nts/sd-7-mailing-procedures-and-how-to-write-papers</a>
          that is for WG21 committee members only.=C2=A0</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>So where do I send a proposal?</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Thank you,</div>
        <div>Marius</div>
      </div>
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      To post to this group, send email to <a
        href=3D"mailto:std-proposals@isocpp.org" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">s=
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      To view this discussion on the web visit <a
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r>
    </blockquote>
    <p><br>
    </p>
  </body>
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<p></p>

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--------------3EA377A6DA313A34A7D0B95A--

.

On 8 February 2018 at 17:45, Tom Honermann <tom@honermann.net> wrote:
> Unless things have changed recently, despite what that second document
> states, submissions are accepted from non-members per the described
> procedures.  Perhaps Hal would be willing to clarify.

There are all kinds of rules, and there's a chance that some folks
don't really pay attention
to the strictest interpretation of all kinds of rules. I suppose,
considering my position, that that's as much as I should
say about this. :)

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.

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On Wednesday, February 7, 2018 at 11:33:32 PM UTC-8, marius....@visma.com=
=20
wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I need a little clarification on the proposal submission process. I'm=20
> sorry if this has been answered already, but I could not find it on the=
=20
> forum.
>
> I read the explanation for how to make a submission from here=20
> https://isocpp.org/std/submit-a-proposal but it's unclear. It says that=
=20
> one should post the idea here, then draft a proposal, post that here,=20
> iterate and improve it until it's in a mature form that can be submitted.=
=20
> And then what? It does not say where or how to send the proposal. There i=
s=20
> another document=20
> https://isocpp.org/std/standing-documents/sd-7-mailing-procedures-and-how=
-to-write-papers=20
> that is for WG21 committee members only.=20
>
> So where do I send a proposal?
>

https://isocpp.org/std/submit-a-proposal
https://isocpp.org/std/standing-documents/sd-7-mailing-procedures-and-how-t=
o-write-papers
are both correct.

Formal ISO meetings are held several times a year; the next one is in=20
Jacksonville, Florida, 2018-03-12. Each meeting is preceded by a=20
"pre-meeting mailing," which goes out to meeting attendees and paper=20
authors. This "mailing" contains all the papers that were submitted before=
=20
the deadline; the pre-Jacksonville deadline is 2018-02-12. Each meeting is=
=20
followed by a "post-meeting mailing" which again goes out to all meeting=20
attendees and paper authors.

First of all, if you aren't sure your paper/proposal is ready for the Big=
=20
Leagues of a formal ISO meeting =E2=80=94 then the rest of these instructio=
ns are=20
not for you. You should post your proposal in this newsgroup, or on the=20
cpplang Slack channel, or in some other less-formal venue, to gather=20
technical feedback *and* to gain an understanding of the appropriate=20
"style" for WG21 proposals. In other words,
https://isocpp.org/std/submit-a-proposal
is correct.

Papers should have paper numbers =E2=80=94 generally of the form P1234R0. Y=
ou can=20
submit a paper with a number of (literally) PxxxxR0 and, in your email=20
body, ask Hal to give you a new number. This process is detailed correctly=
=20
on
https://isocpp.org/std/standing-documents/sd-7-mailing-procedures-and-how-t=
o-write-papers

Okay. If you're sure your paper has been appropriately vetted, and you just=
=20
don't understand where to send it: read
https://isocpp.org/std/standing-documents/sd-7-mailing-procedures-and-how-t=
o-write-papers
and send the paper to Hal Finkel.

Notice that WG21 meetings are open to anyone; you don't have to be an ISO=
=20
member. Notice that anyone can submit a paper to WG21. Notice also that if=
=20
nobody at the actual committee meeting is interested in discussing a=20
particular paper, then that paper will not get discussed. If you want to=20
ensure that a paper is discussed, then you must ensure that somebody is=20
interested in discussing it. Typically this is done by making *yourself*=20
that person. Frequently this is done by finding a "champion" to be that=20
person (e.g. if you cannot attend the meeting for some reason). Very=20
occasionally this is done by making the paper *actually compelling* even to=
=20
people who hadn't heard of it before (but this is difficult, what with the=
=20
volume of papers WG21 gets).

See "Interlude =E2=80=94 How the standards committees work" by Francis Glas=
sborow=20
in *Overload 15 <https://accu.org/var/uploads/journals/overload15.pdf>*,=20
August/September 1996. The organizing principles of WG21 have not=20
*significantly* changed from what he describes.
> Any proposed substantive change to the Working Paper ... must be=20
supported by a paper that describes the change and the reasons for it.=20
These papers can be very brief, but they must exist. They can be written by=
=20
anyone but must be funnelled through the C++ specialist group of a National=
=20
Body ...
[This requirement for NB sponsorship might have changed, or the US NB might=
=20
auto-sponsor everything by default, or Hal as a member of the US NB might=
=20
auto-sponsor some things by default. Anyway, I've never had trouble=20
submitting occasional papers.]
> The most critical stage for any proposal is that of getting through the=
=20
work group to reach the full committees. It is assumed that those proposing=
=20
changes will have enough personal interest to be present and to support=20
their proposal. Only the most clear cut changes ... will get through a work=
=20
group if the proposal=E2=80=99s author or another =E2=80=98champion=E2=80=
=99 isn=E2=80=99t present.

HTH,
Arthur

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org.
To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org.
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..org/d/msgid/std-proposals/b5349a2f-cdbb-4b65-942c-5de8179c9639%40isocpp.or=
g.

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<div dir=3D"ltr">On Wednesday, February 7, 2018 at 11:33:32 PM UTC-8, mariu=
s....@visma.com wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;=
margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div>Hello,</div><div><br></div><div>I need a little clarification=
 on the proposal submission process. I&#39;m sorry if this has been answere=
d already, but I could not find it on the forum.</div><div><br></div><div>I=
 read the explanation for how to make a submission from here <a href=3D"htt=
ps://isocpp.org/std/submit-a-proposal" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" o=
nmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%=
2Fisocpp.org%2Fstd%2Fsubmit-a-proposal\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAF=
QjCNGlLyCIYYQUZNTTJdUEpCYxvwG8Ig&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D=
&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fisocpp.org%2Fstd%2Fsubmi=
t-a-proposal\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNGlLyCIYYQUZNTTJdUEpCYx=
vwG8Ig&#39;;return true;">https://isocpp.org/std/submit-<wbr>a-proposal</a>=
=C2=A0but it&#39;s unclear. It says that one should post the idea here, the=
n draft a proposal, post that here, iterate and improve it until it&#39;s i=
n a mature form that can be submitted. And then what? It does not say where=
 or how to send the proposal. There is another document=C2=A0<a href=3D"htt=
ps://isocpp.org/std/standing-documents/sd-7-mailing-procedures-and-how-to-w=
rite-papers" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D=
&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fisocpp.org%2Fstd%2Fstand=
ing-documents%2Fsd-7-mailing-procedures-and-how-to-write-papers\x26sa\x3dD\=
x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNFbowV1_Vqqdqz3w7nv5ud_Q6mdKA&#39;;return true;=
" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2=
Fisocpp.org%2Fstd%2Fstanding-documents%2Fsd-7-mailing-procedures-and-how-to=
-write-papers\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNFbowV1_Vqqdqz3w7nv5ud=
_Q6mdKA&#39;;return true;">https://isocpp.org/<wbr>std/standing-documents/s=
d-7-<wbr>mailing-procedures-and-how-to-<wbr>write-papers</a> that is for WG=
21 committee members only.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>So where do I sen=
d a proposal?</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><a href=3D"https:=
//isocpp.org/std/submit-a-proposal" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow">http=
s://isocpp.org/std/submit-<wbr>a-proposal</a><br></div><div><a href=3D"http=
s://isocpp.org/std/standing-documents/sd-7-mailing-procedures-and-how-to-wr=
ite-papers">https://isocpp.org/std/standing-documents/sd-7-mailing-procedur=
es-and-how-to-write-papers</a><br></div><div>are both correct.</div><div><b=
r></div><div>Formal ISO meetings are held several times a year; the next on=
e is in Jacksonville, Florida, 2018-03-12. Each meeting is preceded by a &q=
uot;pre-meeting mailing,&quot; which goes out to meeting attendees and pape=
r authors. This &quot;mailing&quot; contains all the papers that were submi=
tted before the deadline; the pre-Jacksonville deadline is 2018-02-12. Each=
 meeting is followed by a &quot;post-meeting mailing&quot; which again goes=
 out to all meeting attendees and paper authors.<br></div><div><br></div><d=
iv>First of all, if you aren&#39;t sure your paper/proposal is ready for th=
e Big Leagues of a formal ISO meeting =E2=80=94 then the rest of these inst=
ructions are not for you. You should post your proposal in this newsgroup, =
or on the cpplang Slack channel, or in some other less-formal venue, to gat=
her technical feedback <i>and</i> to gain an understanding of the appropria=
te &quot;style&quot; for WG21 proposals. In other words,</div><div><a href=
=3D"https://isocpp.org/std/submit-a-proposal" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofo=
llow">https://isocpp.org/std/submit-<wbr>a-proposal</a><br></div><div>is co=
rrect.</div><div><br></div><div>Papers should have paper numbers =E2=80=94 =
generally of the form P1234R0. You can submit a paper with a number of (lit=
erally) PxxxxR0 and, in your email body, ask Hal to give you a new number. =
This process is detailed correctly on</div><div><a href=3D"https://isocpp.o=
rg/std/standing-documents/sd-7-mailing-procedures-and-how-to-write-papers">=
https://isocpp.org/std/standing-documents/sd-7-mailing-procedures-and-how-t=
o-write-papers</a><br></div><div><br></div><div>Okay. If you&#39;re sure yo=
ur paper has been appropriately vetted, and you just don&#39;t understand w=
here to send it: read</div><div><a href=3D"https://isocpp.org/std/standing-=
documents/sd-7-mailing-procedures-and-how-to-write-papers">https://isocpp.o=
rg/std/standing-documents/sd-7-mailing-procedures-and-how-to-write-papers</=
a></div><div>and send the paper to Hal Finkel.</div><div><br></div><div>Not=
ice that WG21 meetings are open to anyone; you don&#39;t have to be an ISO =
member. Notice that anyone can submit a paper to WG21. Notice also that if =
nobody at the actual committee meeting is interested in discussing a partic=
ular paper, then that paper will not get discussed. If you want to ensure t=
hat a paper is discussed, then you must ensure that somebody is interested =
in discussing it. Typically this is done by making <i>yourself</i> that per=
son. Frequently this is done by finding a &quot;champion&quot; to be that p=
erson (e.g. if you cannot attend the meeting for some reason). Very occasio=
nally this is done by making the paper <i>actually compelling</i>=C2=A0even=
 to people who hadn&#39;t heard of it before (but this is difficult, what w=
ith the volume of papers WG21 gets).</div><div><br></div><div>See &quot;Int=
erlude =E2=80=94 How the standards committees work&quot; by Francis Glassbo=
row in <i><a href=3D"https://accu.org/var/uploads/journals/overload15.pdf">=
Overload 15</a></i>, August/September 1996. The organizing principles of WG=
21 have not <i>significantly</i> changed from what he describes.</div><div>=
&gt; Any proposed substantive change to the Working Paper ... must be suppo=
rted by a paper that describes the change and the reasons for it. These pap=
ers can be very brief, but they must exist. They can be written by anyone b=
ut must be funnelled through the C++ specialist group of a National Body ..=
..<br>[This requirement for NB sponsorship might have changed, or the US NB =
might auto-sponsor everything by default, or Hal as a member of the US NB m=
ight auto-sponsor some things by default. Anyway, I&#39;ve never had troubl=
e submitting occasional papers.]</div><div> &gt; The most critical stage fo=
r any proposal is that of getting through the work group to reach the full =
committees. It is assumed that those proposing changes will have enough per=
sonal interest to be present and to support their proposal. Only the most c=
lear cut changes ... will get through a work group if the proposal=E2=80=99=
s author or another =E2=80=98champion=E2=80=99 isn=E2=80=99t present.<br></=
div><div><br></div><div>HTH,</div><div>Arthur</div></div>

<p></p>

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Thank you, that clarifies it quite well.

On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 12:51 AM, Arthur O'Dwyer <arthur.j.odwyer@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Wednesday, February 7, 2018 at 11:33:32 PM UTC-8, marius....@visma.com
> wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I need a little clarification on the proposal submission process. I'm
>> sorry if this has been answered already, but I could not find it on the
>> forum.
>>
>> I read the explanation for how to make a submission from here
>> https://isocpp.org/std/submit-a-proposal but it's unclear. It says that
>> one should post the idea here, then draft a proposal, post that here,
>> iterate and improve it until it's in a mature form that can be submitted=
..
>> And then what? It does not say where or how to send the proposal. There =
is
>> another document https://isocpp.org/std/standing-documents/sd-7-mail
>> ing-procedures-and-how-to-write-papers that is for WG21 committee
>> members only.
>>
>> So where do I send a proposal?
>>
>
> https://isocpp.org/std/submit-a-proposal
> https://isocpp.org/std/standing-documents/sd-7-
> mailing-procedures-and-how-to-write-papers
> are both correct.
>
> Formal ISO meetings are held several times a year; the next one is in
> Jacksonville, Florida, 2018-03-12. Each meeting is preceded by a
> "pre-meeting mailing," which goes out to meeting attendees and paper
> authors. This "mailing" contains all the papers that were submitted befor=
e
> the deadline; the pre-Jacksonville deadline is 2018-02-12. Each meeting i=
s
> followed by a "post-meeting mailing" which again goes out to all meeting
> attendees and paper authors.
>
> First of all, if you aren't sure your paper/proposal is ready for the Big
> Leagues of a formal ISO meeting =E2=80=94 then the rest of these instruct=
ions are
> not for you. You should post your proposal in this newsgroup, or on the
> cpplang Slack channel, or in some other less-formal venue, to gather
> technical feedback *and* to gain an understanding of the appropriate
> "style" for WG21 proposals. In other words,
> https://isocpp.org/std/submit-a-proposal
> is correct.
>
> Papers should have paper numbers =E2=80=94 generally of the form P1234R0.=
 You can
> submit a paper with a number of (literally) PxxxxR0 and, in your email
> body, ask Hal to give you a new number. This process is detailed correctl=
y
> on
> https://isocpp.org/std/standing-documents/sd-7-
> mailing-procedures-and-how-to-write-papers
>
> Okay. If you're sure your paper has been appropriately vetted, and you
> just don't understand where to send it: read
> https://isocpp.org/std/standing-documents/sd-7-
> mailing-procedures-and-how-to-write-papers
> and send the paper to Hal Finkel.
>
> Notice that WG21 meetings are open to anyone; you don't have to be an ISO
> member. Notice that anyone can submit a paper to WG21. Notice also that i=
f
> nobody at the actual committee meeting is interested in discussing a
> particular paper, then that paper will not get discussed. If you want to
> ensure that a paper is discussed, then you must ensure that somebody is
> interested in discussing it. Typically this is done by making *yourself*
> that person. Frequently this is done by finding a "champion" to be that
> person (e.g. if you cannot attend the meeting for some reason). Very
> occasionally this is done by making the paper *actually compelling* even
> to people who hadn't heard of it before (but this is difficult, what with
> the volume of papers WG21 gets).
>
> See "Interlude =E2=80=94 How the standards committees work" by Francis Gl=
assborow
> in *Overload 15 <https://accu.org/var/uploads/journals/overload15.pdf>*,
> August/September 1996. The organizing principles of WG21 have not
> *significantly* changed from what he describes.
> > Any proposed substantive change to the Working Paper ... must be
> supported by a paper that describes the change and the reasons for it.
> These papers can be very brief, but they must exist. They can be written =
by
> anyone but must be funnelled through the C++ specialist group of a Nation=
al
> Body ...
> [This requirement for NB sponsorship might have changed, or the US NB
> might auto-sponsor everything by default, or Hal as a member of the US NB
> might auto-sponsor some things by default. Anyway, I've never had trouble
> submitting occasional papers.]
> > The most critical stage for any proposal is that of getting through the
> work group to reach the full committees. It is assumed that those proposi=
ng
> changes will have enough personal interest to be present and to support
> their proposal. Only the most clear cut changes ... will get through a wo=
rk
> group if the proposal=E2=80=99s author or another =E2=80=98champion=E2=80=
=99 isn=E2=80=99t present.
>
> HTH,
> Arthur
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org.
> To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org.
> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/
> isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/b5349a2f-cdbb-4b65-
> 942c-5de8179c9639%40isocpp.org
> <https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/b5349a2f-cd=
bb-4b65-942c-5de8179c9639%40isocpp.org?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfoot=
er>
> .
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Thank you, that clarifies it quite well.</div><div class=
=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 12:5=
1 AM, Arthur O&#39;Dwyer <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:arthur.j.o=
dwyer@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">arthur.j.odwyer@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span>=
 wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bor=
der-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><span class=3D""=
>On Wednesday, February 7, 2018 at 11:33:32 PM UTC-8, <a href=3D"mailto:mar=
ius....@visma.com" target=3D"_blank">marius....@visma.com</a> wrote:<blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:=
1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hello,</div><div><br=
></div><div>I need a little clarification on the proposal submission proces=
s. I&#39;m sorry if this has been answered already, but I could not find it=
 on the forum.</div><div><br></div><div>I read the explanation for how to m=
ake a submission from here <a href=3D"https://isocpp.org/std/submit-a-propo=
sal" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">https://isocpp.org/std/submit-<wbr>=
a-proposal</a>=C2=A0but it&#39;s unclear. It says that one should post the =
idea here, then draft a proposal, post that here, iterate and improve it un=
til it&#39;s in a mature form that can be submitted. And then what? It does=
 not say where or how to send the proposal. There is another document=C2=A0=
<a href=3D"https://isocpp.org/std/standing-documents/sd-7-mailing-procedure=
s-and-how-to-write-papers" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">https://isocp=
p.org/st<wbr>d/standing-documents/sd-7-mail<wbr>ing-procedures-and-how-to-w=
rit<wbr>e-papers</a> that is for WG21 committee members only.=C2=A0</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>So where do I send a proposal?</div></div></blockquote><d=
iv><br></div></span><div><a href=3D"https://isocpp.org/std/submit-a-proposa=
l" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">https://isocpp.org/std/submit-<wbr>a-=
proposal</a><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://isocpp.org/std/standing-docum=
ents/sd-7-mailing-procedures-and-how-to-write-papers" target=3D"_blank">htt=
ps://isocpp.org/std/<wbr>standing-documents/sd-7-<wbr>mailing-procedures-an=
d-how-to-<wbr>write-papers</a><br></div><div>are both correct.</div><div><b=
r></div><div>Formal ISO meetings are held several times a year; the next on=
e is in Jacksonville, Florida, 2018-03-12. Each meeting is preceded by a &q=
uot;pre-meeting mailing,&quot; which goes out to meeting attendees and pape=
r authors. This &quot;mailing&quot; contains all the papers that were submi=
tted before the deadline; the pre-Jacksonville deadline is 2018-02-12. Each=
 meeting is followed by a &quot;post-meeting mailing&quot; which again goes=
 out to all meeting attendees and paper authors.<br></div><div><br></div><d=
iv>First of all, if you aren&#39;t sure your paper/proposal is ready for th=
e Big Leagues of a formal ISO meeting =E2=80=94 then the rest of these inst=
ructions are not for you. You should post your proposal in this newsgroup, =
or on the cpplang Slack channel, or in some other less-formal venue, to gat=
her technical feedback <i>and</i> to gain an understanding of the appropria=
te &quot;style&quot; for WG21 proposals. In other words,</div><div><a href=
=3D"https://isocpp.org/std/submit-a-proposal" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_b=
lank">https://isocpp.org/std/submit-<wbr>a-proposal</a><br></div><div>is co=
rrect.</div><div><br></div><div>Papers should have paper numbers =E2=80=94 =
generally of the form P1234R0. You can submit a paper with a number of (lit=
erally) PxxxxR0 and, in your email body, ask Hal to give you a new number. =
This process is detailed correctly on</div><div><a href=3D"https://isocpp.o=
rg/std/standing-documents/sd-7-mailing-procedures-and-how-to-write-papers" =
target=3D"_blank">https://isocpp.org/std/<wbr>standing-documents/sd-7-<wbr>=
mailing-procedures-and-how-to-<wbr>write-papers</a><br></div><div><br></div=
><div>Okay. If you&#39;re sure your paper has been appropriately vetted, an=
d you just don&#39;t understand where to send it: read</div><div><a href=3D=
"https://isocpp.org/std/standing-documents/sd-7-mailing-procedures-and-how-=
to-write-papers" target=3D"_blank">https://isocpp.org/std/<wbr>standing-doc=
uments/sd-7-<wbr>mailing-procedures-and-how-to-<wbr>write-papers</a></div><=
div>and send the paper to Hal Finkel.</div><div><br></div><div>Notice that =
WG21 meetings are open to anyone; you don&#39;t have to be an ISO member. N=
otice that anyone can submit a paper to WG21. Notice also that if nobody at=
 the actual committee meeting is interested in discussing a particular pape=
r, then that paper will not get discussed. If you want to ensure that a pap=
er is discussed, then you must ensure that somebody is interested in discus=
sing it. Typically this is done by making <i>yourself</i> that person. Freq=
uently this is done by finding a &quot;champion&quot; to be that person (e.=
g. if you cannot attend the meeting for some reason). Very occasionally thi=
s is done by making the paper <i>actually compelling</i>=C2=A0even to peopl=
e who hadn&#39;t heard of it before (but this is difficult, what with the v=
olume of papers WG21 gets).</div><div><br></div><div>See &quot;Interlude =
=E2=80=94 How the standards committees work&quot; by Francis Glassborow in =
<i><a href=3D"https://accu.org/var/uploads/journals/overload15.pdf" target=
=3D"_blank">Overload 15</a></i>, August/September 1996. The organizing prin=
ciples of WG21 have not <i>significantly</i> changed from what he describes=
..</div><div>&gt; Any proposed substantive change to the Working Paper ... m=
ust be supported by a paper that describes the change and the reasons for i=
t. These papers can be very brief, but they must exist. They can be written=
 by anyone but must be funnelled through the C++ specialist group of a Nati=
onal Body ...<br>[This requirement for NB sponsorship might have changed, o=
r the US NB might auto-sponsor everything by default, or Hal as a member of=
 the US NB might auto-sponsor some things by default. Anyway, I&#39;ve neve=
r had trouble submitting occasional papers.]</div><div> &gt; The most criti=
cal stage for any proposal is that of getting through the work group to rea=
ch the full committees. It is assumed that those proposing changes will hav=
e enough personal interest to be present and to support their proposal. Onl=
y the most clear cut changes ... will get through a work group if the propo=
sal=E2=80=99s author or another =E2=80=98champion=E2=80=99 isn=E2=80=99t pr=
esent.<br></div><div><br></div><div>HTH,</div><div>Arthur</div></div><span =
class=3D"">

<p></p>

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9a2f-cdbb-4b65-<wbr>942c-5de8179c9639%40isocpp.org</a><wbr>.<br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

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Have to agree with the OP, the situation is very confusing.

What it makes it even more so is Call for Library Proposals
<http://open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2012/n3370.html>

Which for example points not Hal Finkel, but <lwgchair at gmail.com> to
send to.

And there is also How To Submit a New Issue / Defect Report
<https://isocpp.org/std/submit-issue> that also adds <wmm at edg.com> "for
core language issues."

This leads indeed to the assumption hfinkel at anl.gov is *only *fro for
WG21 committee members,
which in tern makes one wonder "If for Library I must send to lwgchair, and
I am not a member, then probably, for EWG, there is some
ewgchair@something?"


On Thursday, February 8, 2018 at 9:33:32 AM UTC+2, marius....@visma.com
wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I need a little clarification on the proposal submission process. I'm
> sorry if this has been answered already, but I could not find it on the
> forum.
>
> I read the explanation for how to make a submission from here
> https://isocpp.org/std/submit-a-proposal but it's unclear. It says that
> one should post the idea here, then draft a proposal, post that here,
> iterate and improve it until it's in a mature form that can be submitted.
> And then what? It does not say where or how to send the proposal. There is
> another document
> https://isocpp.org/std/standing-documents/sd-7-mailing-procedures-and-how-to-write-papers
> that is for WG21 committee members only.
>
> So where do I send a proposal?
>
> Thank you,
> Marius
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Have to agree with the OP, the situation is very confusing=
..<div><br></div><div>What it makes it even more so is=C2=A0<a href=3D" http=
://open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2012/n3370.html">Call for Librar=
y Proposals</a></div><div><br></div>Which for example points not Hal Finkel=
, but &lt;lwgchair at gmail.com&gt; to send to.<div><br></div><div>And ther=
e is also=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://isocpp.org/std/submit-issue">How To Submi=
t a New Issue / Defect Report</a>=C2=A0that also adds &lt;wmm at edg.com&gt=
; &quot;for core language issues.&quot;</div><div><br></div><div><div>This =
leads indeed to the assumption hfinkel at anl.gov is <i>only </i>fro for WG=
21 committee members,</div><div>which in tern makes one wonder &quot;If for=
 Library I must send to lwgchair, and I am not a member, then probably, for=
 EWG, there is some ewgchair@something?&quot;=C2=A0<br></div><div><br><br>O=
n Thursday, February 8, 2018 at 9:33:32 AM UTC+2, marius....@visma.com wrot=
e:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;b=
order-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hello,=
</div><div><br></div><div>I need a little clarification on the proposal sub=
mission process. I&#39;m sorry if this has been answered already, but I cou=
ld not find it on the forum.</div><div><br></div><div>I read the explanatio=
n for how to make a submission from here <a href=3D"https://isocpp.org/std/=
submit-a-proposal" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" onmousedown=3D"this.h=
ref=3D&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fisocpp.org%2Fstd%2=
Fsubmit-a-proposal\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNGlLyCIYYQUZNTTJd=
UEpCYxvwG8Ig&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://www.goo=
gle.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fisocpp.org%2Fstd%2Fsubmit-a-proposal\x26sa\x=
3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNGlLyCIYYQUZNTTJdUEpCYxvwG8Ig&#39;;return t=
rue;">https://isocpp.org/std/submit-<wbr>a-proposal</a>=C2=A0but it&#39;s u=
nclear. It says that one should post the idea here, then draft a proposal, =
post that here, iterate and improve it until it&#39;s in a mature form that=
 can be submitted. And then what? It does not say where or how to send the =
proposal. There is another document=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://isocpp.org/std/=
standing-documents/sd-7-mailing-procedures-and-how-to-write-papers" target=
=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://www.go=
ogle.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fisocpp.org%2Fstd%2Fstanding-documents%2Fsd-=
7-mailing-procedures-and-how-to-write-papers\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg=
\x3dAFQjCNFbowV1_Vqqdqz3w7nv5ud_Q6mdKA&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D"this.h=
ref=3D&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fisocpp.org%2Fstd%2=
Fstanding-documents%2Fsd-7-mailing-procedures-and-how-to-write-papers\x26sa=
\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNFbowV1_Vqqdqz3w7nv5ud_Q6mdKA&#39;;return=
 true;">https://isocpp.org/<wbr>std/standing-documents/sd-7-<wbr>mailing-pr=
ocedures-and-how-to-<wbr>write-papers</a> that is for WG21 committee member=
s only.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>So where do I send a proposal?</div>=
<div><br></div><div>Thank you,</div><div>Marius<br></div></div></blockquote=
></div></div></div>

<p></p>

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The C++ committee has been around for a long time; unfortunately, our
infrastructure hasn't aged or scaled as well as we might have hoped.

We are actively working on improving C++ standardization infrastructure.

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018, 5:19 AM <mihailnajdenov@gmail.com> wrote:

> Have to agree with the OP, the situation is very confusing.
>
> What it makes it even more so is Call for Library Proposals
> <http://open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2012/n3370.html>
>
> Which for example points not Hal Finkel, but <lwgchair at gmail.com> to
> send to.
>
> And there is also How To Submit a New Issue / Defect Report
> <https://isocpp.org/std/submit-issue> that also adds <wmm at edg.com>
> "for core language issues."
>
> This leads indeed to the assumption hfinkel at anl.gov is *only *fro for
> WG21 committee members,
> which in tern makes one wonder "If for Library I must send to lwgchair,
> and I am not a member, then probably, for EWG, there is some
> ewgchair@something?"
>
>
> On Thursday, February 8, 2018 at 9:33:32 AM UTC+2, marius....@visma.com
> wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I need a little clarification on the proposal submission process. I'm
>> sorry if this has been answered already, but I could not find it on the
>> forum.
>>
>> I read the explanation for how to make a submission from here
>> https://isocpp.org/std/submit-a-proposal but it's unclear. It says that
>> one should post the idea here, then draft a proposal, post that here,
>> iterate and improve it until it's in a mature form that can be submitted.
>> And then what? It does not say where or how to send the proposal. There is
>> another document
>> https://isocpp.org/std/standing-documents/sd-7-mailing-procedures-and-how-to-write-papers
>> that is for WG21 committee members only.
>>
>> So where do I send a proposal?
>>
>> Thank you,
>> Marius
>>
> --
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> .
>

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<div dir=3D"auto">The C++ committee has been around for a long time; unfort=
unately, our infrastructure hasn&#39;t aged or scaled as well as we might h=
ave hoped.<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">We are actively wor=
king on improving C++ standardization infrastructure.</div></div><br><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Tue, Oct 23, 2018, 5:19 AM  &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:mihailnajdenov@gmail.com">mihailnajdenov@gmail.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8e=
x;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Have to agr=
ee with the OP, the situation is very confusing.<div><br></div><div>What it=
 makes it even more so is=C2=A0<a href=3D"http://open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg2=
1/docs/papers/2012/n3370.html" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">Call fo=
r Library Proposals</a></div><div><br></div>Which for example points not Ha=
l Finkel, but &lt;lwgchair at <a href=3D"http://gmail.com" target=3D"_blank=
" rel=3D"noreferrer">gmail.com</a>&gt; to send to.<div><br></div><div>And t=
here is also=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://isocpp.org/std/submit-issue" target=3D=
"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">How To Submit a New Issue / Defect Report</a>=
=C2=A0that also adds &lt;wmm at <a href=3D"http://edg.com" target=3D"_blank=
" rel=3D"noreferrer">edg.com</a>&gt; &quot;for core language issues.&quot;<=
/div><div><br></div><div><div>This leads indeed to the assumption hfinkel a=
t <a href=3D"http://anl.gov" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">anl.gov</=
a> is <i>only </i>fro for WG21 committee members,</div><div>which in tern m=
akes one wonder &quot;If for Library I must send to lwgchair, and I am not =
a member, then probably, for EWG, there is some ewgchair@something?&quot;=
=C2=A0<br></div><div><br><br>On Thursday, February 8, 2018 at 9:33:32 AM UT=
C+2, <a href=3D"mailto:marius....@visma.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noref=
errer">marius....@visma.com</a> wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1e=
x"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hello,</div><div><br></div><div>I need a little cl=
arification on the proposal submission process. I&#39;m sorry if this has b=
een answered already, but I could not find it on the forum.</div><div><br><=
/div><div>I read the explanation for how to make a submission from here <a =
href=3D"https://isocpp.org/std/submit-a-proposal" rel=3D"nofollow noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">https://isocpp.org/std/submit-a-proposal</a>=C2=A0but =
it&#39;s unclear. It says that one should post the idea here, then draft a =
proposal, post that here, iterate and improve it until it&#39;s in a mature=
 form that can be submitted. And then what? It does not say where or how to=
 send the proposal. There is another document=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://isocp=
p.org/std/standing-documents/sd-7-mailing-procedures-and-how-to-write-paper=
s" rel=3D"nofollow noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://isocpp.org/std/sta=
nding-documents/sd-7-mailing-procedures-and-how-to-write-papers</a> that is=
 for WG21 committee members only.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>So where d=
o I send a proposal?</div><div><br></div><div>Thank you,</div><div>Marius<b=
r></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div>

<p></p>

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</blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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The C++ committee has been around for a long time; unfortunately, our
infrastructure hasn't aged or scaled as well as we might have hoped.
>
>
> We are actively working on improving C++ standardization infrastructure.
>

I have to agree with OP that the information on the site is only half
helpful. I suggest to add Arthur's excellent answer to the
submit-a-proposal page or place it right after.  While at it links to some
moral documents created recently could be added, like Bjarne's Remember the
Wasa. Along with quote from D&E where the old policy was to require each
submission also donate a kidney.

If the current somewhat obscure path is intentional to deter half-baked
papers and general flood, it's not really working looking at just the most
recent list of submissions.


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<div dir=3D"ltr">The C++ committee has been around for a long time; unfortu=
nately, our infrastructure hasn&#39;t aged or scaled as well as we might ha=
ve hoped.<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: =
0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"auto"><di=
v dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">We are actively working on impro=
ving C++ standardization infrastructure.</div></div></blockquote><div><br><=
/div><div>I have to agree with OP that the information on the site is only =
half helpful. I suggest to add Arthur&#39;s excellent answer to the submit-=
a-proposal page or place it right after.=C2=A0 While at it links to some mo=
ral documents created recently could be added, like Bjarne&#39;s Remember t=
he Wasa. Along with quote from D&amp;E where the old policy was to require =
each submission also donate a kidney.=C2=A0=C2=A0 <br></div><div><br></div>=
<div>If the current somewhat obscure path is intentional to deter half-bake=
d papers and general flood, it&#39;s not really working looking at just the=
 most recent list of submissions.=C2=A0 <br></div><div><br></div><div><br><=
/div></div>

<p></p>

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The whole process looks like something you'd expect from a Vogon town
planning committee, not one of developers with a massive following of
people who would be more than happy to contribute their time. If I see code
with large amounts of comments to help a user understand what it does, the
first thing I think is that the code must be pretty bad. Here I'm seeing a
process that has a variety of documents to explain the process, and that
makes me think that the process is pretty bad.

The problem is not that we have such a large community that proposals are
hard to manage. It's that the wider community isn't being leveraged - the
very means by which low quality submissions are shut out (by making the
process opaque and awkward) is the direct cause of the growing pains, from
what I can see, because the community simply can't help with the
discussions.

It would be beneficial, IMO, to have a centralised place to have this all
in the open. A submission could create a git repo equipped with a weighted
voting system. No more baffling red/green inline edits because there's a
commit history, and we can save proposers time by having proposals in HTML
rather than typesetting for PDF (with a standardised stylesheet and
bootstrap document to start from). Summaries of meeting discussions can be
provided in a discussion file in the paper repo so that everyone knows
what's going on.

The up vote system is how you'd select papers for discussion. Members of
differing relevant experience can have different weights on their votes,
and, once a threshold is passed, a paper number is allocated (committee
members having a vote weight on the order of the passing threshold, and
brand new members having negligible weight to counter spambots). Downvotes
exist too, so controversial proposals (E.g. Named parameters) need to make
headway enough to convince downvotes to flip.

That's how a standardisation process might look if it was designed in the
21st century. *I know I'm a newbie, so there will be details I'm not aware
of that prevent such a system from being implemented*, but I can't see how
the current approach is going to cope with the growing community for more
than a few more years, and IMHO the only way of truly coping with a growing
community is to *use* the community to help you narrow down proposals.

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<div dir=3D"auto"><div>The whole process looks like something you&#39;d exp=
ect from a Vogon town planning committee, not one of developers with a mass=
ive following of people who would be more than happy to contribute their ti=
me. If I see code with large amounts of comments to help a user understand =
what it does, the first thing I think is that the code must be pretty bad. =
Here I&#39;m seeing a process that has a variety of documents to explain th=
e process, and that makes me think that the process is pretty bad.</div><di=
v dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">The problem is not that we have =
such a large community that proposals are hard to manage. It&#39;s that the=
 wider community isn&#39;t being leveraged - the very means by which low qu=
ality submissions are shut out (by making the process opaque and awkward) i=
s the direct cause of the growing pains, from what I can see, because the c=
ommunity simply can&#39;t help with the discussions.</div><div dir=3D"auto"=
><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">It would be beneficial, IMO, to have a central=
ised place to have this all in the open. A submission could create a git re=
po equipped with a weighted voting system. No more baffling red/green inlin=
e edits because there&#39;s a commit history, and we can save proposers tim=
e by having proposals in HTML rather than typesetting for PDF (with a stand=
ardised stylesheet and bootstrap document to start from). Summaries of meet=
ing discussions can be provided in a discussion file in the paper repo so t=
hat everyone knows what&#39;s going on.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></=
div><div dir=3D"auto">The up vote system is how you&#39;d select papers for=
 discussion. Members of differing relevant experience can have different we=
ights on their votes, and, once a threshold is passed, a paper number is al=
located (committee members having a vote weight on the order of the passing=
 threshold, and brand new members having negligible weight to counter spamb=
ots). Downvotes exist too, so controversial proposals (E.g. Named parameter=
s) need to make headway enough to convince downvotes to flip.</div><div dir=
=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">That&#39;s how a standardisation proc=
ess might look if it was designed in the 21st century. <u>I know I&#39;m a =
newbie, so there will be details I&#39;m not aware of that prevent such a s=
ystem from being implemented</u>, but I can&#39;t see how the current appro=
ach is going to cope with the growing community for more than a few more ye=
ars, and IMHO the only way of truly coping with a growing community is to <=
b>use</b> the community to help you narrow down proposals.</div></div>

<p></p>

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.

On 24/10/2018 12.07, Jake Arkinstall wrote:
> we can save proposers time by having proposals in HTML
> rather than typesetting for PDF (with a standardised stylesheet and
> bootstrap document to start from).

Enforcing a particular format for submitting proposals will certainly be
a double edged sword.

While I do like the look of the w3c template, I prefer to write my
proposals in reST. Others prefer to write their proposals in MD, and I
can only surmise that some people actually prefer tex.

> Summaries of meeting discussions can be
> provided in a discussion file in the paper repo so that everyone knows
> what's going on.

That would be nice. (Although, I should note that these *are* available
to some extent on the internal wiki.)

--
Matthew

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Many good points, however note that people do not do the bare minimum even
today - to have the proposal here first.
Vast majority of proposals do not get ANY feedback before published - case
in points the so called "simple papers" that someone posted on reedit last
few days.

 Many of these papers would have gotten SOME feedback and some of them
would have been discouraged, like the recent "allow $ in identifiers"
OR at least a better motivation would have been advised.


On Wednesday, October 24, 2018 at 7:07:40 PM UTC+3, Jake Arkinstall wrote:
>
> The whole process looks like something you'd expect from a Vogon town
> planning committee, not one of developers with a massive following of
> people who would be more than happy to contribute their time. If I see code
> with large amounts of comments to help a user understand what it does, the
> first thing I think is that the code must be pretty bad. Here I'm seeing a
> process that has a variety of documents to explain the process, and that
> makes me think that the process is pretty bad.
>
> The problem is not that we have such a large community that proposals are
> hard to manage. It's that the wider community isn't being leveraged - the
> very means by which low quality submissions are shut out (by making the
> process opaque and awkward) is the direct cause of the growing pains, from
> what I can see, because the community simply can't help with the
> discussions.
>
> It would be beneficial, IMO, to have a centralised place to have this all
> in the open. A submission could create a git repo equipped with a weighted
> voting system. No more baffling red/green inline edits because there's a
> commit history, and we can save proposers time by having proposals in HTML
> rather than typesetting for PDF (with a standardised stylesheet and
> bootstrap document to start from). Summaries of meeting discussions can be
> provided in a discussion file in the paper repo so that everyone knows
> what's going on.
>
> The up vote system is how you'd select papers for discussion. Members of
> differing relevant experience can have different weights on their votes,
> and, once a threshold is passed, a paper number is allocated (committee
> members having a vote weight on the order of the passing threshold, and
> brand new members having negligible weight to counter spambots). Downvotes
> exist too, so controversial proposals (E.g. Named parameters) need to make
> headway enough to convince downvotes to flip.
>
> That's how a standardisation process might look if it was designed in the
> 21st century. *I know I'm a newbie, so there will be details I'm not
> aware of that prevent such a system from being implemented*, but I can't
> see how the current approach is going to cope with the growing community
> for more than a few more years, and IMHO the only way of truly coping with
> a growing community is to *use* the community to help you narrow down
> proposals.
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><span style=3D"font-size: small;">Many good points, howeve=
r note that people do not do the bare minimum even today - to have the prop=
osal here first.=C2=A0</span><div style=3D"font-size: small;">Vast majority=
 of proposals do not get ANY feedback before published - case in points the=
 so called &quot;simple papers&quot; that someone posted on reedit last few=
 days.</div><div style=3D"font-size: small;"><br></div><div style=3D"font-s=
ize: small;">=C2=A0Many of these papers would have gotten SOME feedback and=
 some of them would have been discouraged, like the recent &quot;allow $ in=
 identifiers&quot;</div><div style=3D"font-size: small;">OR at least a bett=
er motivation would have been advised.=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div style=3D"font-=
size: small;"><br></div><br>On Wednesday, October 24, 2018 at 7:07:40 PM UT=
C+3, Jake Arkinstall wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><di=
v dir=3D"auto"><div>The whole process looks like something you&#39;d expect=
 from a Vogon town planning committee, not one of developers with a massive=
 following of people who would be more than happy to contribute their time.=
 If I see code with large amounts of comments to help a user understand wha=
t it does, the first thing I think is that the code must be pretty bad. Her=
e I&#39;m seeing a process that has a variety of documents to explain the p=
rocess, and that makes me think that the process is pretty bad.</div><div d=
ir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">The problem is not that we have suc=
h a large community that proposals are hard to manage. It&#39;s that the wi=
der community isn&#39;t being leveraged - the very means by which low quali=
ty submissions are shut out (by making the process opaque and awkward) is t=
he direct cause of the growing pains, from what I can see, because the comm=
unity simply can&#39;t help with the discussions.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><b=
r></div><div dir=3D"auto">It would be beneficial, IMO, to have a centralise=
d place to have this all in the open. A submission could create a git repo =
equipped with a weighted voting system. No more baffling red/green inline e=
dits because there&#39;s a commit history, and we can save proposers time b=
y having proposals in HTML rather than typesetting for PDF (with a standard=
ised stylesheet and bootstrap document to start from). Summaries of meeting=
 discussions can be provided in a discussion file in the paper repo so that=
 everyone knows what&#39;s going on.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div=
><div dir=3D"auto">The up vote system is how you&#39;d select papers for di=
scussion. Members of differing relevant experience can have different weigh=
ts on their votes, and, once a threshold is passed, a paper number is alloc=
ated (committee members having a vote weight on the order of the passing th=
reshold, and brand new members having negligible weight to counter spambots=
). Downvotes exist too, so controversial proposals (E.g. Named parameters) =
need to make headway enough to convince downvotes to flip.</div><div dir=3D=
"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">That&#39;s how a standardisation process=
 might look if it was designed in the 21st century. <u>I know I&#39;m a new=
bie, so there will be details I&#39;m not aware of that prevent such a syst=
em from being implemented</u>, but I can&#39;t see how the current approach=
 is going to cope with the growing community for more than a few more years=
, and IMHO the only way of truly coping with a growing community is to <b>u=
se</b> the community to help you narrow down proposals.</div></div>
</blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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2018. okt=C3=B3ber 24., szerda 18:36:25 UTC+2 id=C5=91pontban Matthew Woehl=
ke a=20
k=C3=B6vetkez=C5=91t =C3=ADrta:
>
> > Summaries of meeting discussions can be=20
> > provided in a discussion file in the paper repo so that everyone knows=
=20
> > what's going on.=20
>
> That would be nice. (Although, I should note that these *are* available=
=20
> to some extent on the internal wiki.)=20
>

Jake's system reads nice and addresses some problems. But IMHO mostly of=20
the theoretical kind.=20

However the latter is a serious issue and we could use improvements.  The=
=20
internal wiki is great as long as we talk about CWG. But even that is hard=
=20
to use unless one just knows from the top of the head when a particular=20
proposal was discussed.=20

The system works okay-ish for papers that progress and eventually gets=20
adopted. As the authors provide summary of direction, changes, etc in the=
=20
followup.=20

But the information related to proposals that got outright rejected or just=
=20
die for lack of further work is (IME) lost. And that is bad. As the idea=20
will pop up again and waste more valuable time on repetition. Or if someone=
=20
would work on a different track, can not learn from what were the actual=20
concerns, that he could address right up front.=20

Ideally some discussion summary would be accessible right beside the paper=
=20
in the document store.

A related problem is that it is nuclear what the status of a proposal is.=
=20
Whether it is just waiting its next iteration or is abandoned.=20

Some of the impact may be covered by the volume of incoming new proposals,=
=20
but it is still a huge waste. And someone migh find a way to reduce it=20
without much extra effort.

=20

--=20
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ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
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..org/d/msgid/std-proposals/833abf52-8c0e-47cb-8c79-1ff5727e75c3%40isocpp.or=
g.

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>2018. okt=C3=B3ber 24., szerda 18:36:25 UTC+2 id=C5=91=
pontban Matthew Woehlke a k=C3=B6vetkez=C5=91t =C3=ADrta:<blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #cc=
c solid;padding-left: 1ex;">&gt; Summaries of meeting discussions can be
<br>&gt; provided in a discussion file in the paper repo so that everyone k=
nows
<br>&gt; what&#39;s going on.
<br>
<br>That would be nice. (Although, I should note that these *are* available
<br>to some extent on the internal wiki.)
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Jake&#39;s system reads nice and addre=
sses some problems. But IMHO mostly of the theoretical kind. <br></div><div=
><br></div><div>However the latter is a serious issue and we could use impr=
ovements.=C2=A0 The internal wiki is great as long as we talk about CWG. Bu=
t even that is hard to use unless one just knows from the top of the head w=
hen a particular proposal was discussed. <br></div><div><br></div><div>The =
system works okay-ish for papers that progress and eventually gets adopted.=
 As the authors provide summary of direction, changes, etc in the followup.=
 <br></div><div><br></div><div>But the information related to proposals tha=
t got outright rejected or just die for lack of further work is (IME) lost.=
 And that is bad. As the idea will pop up again and waste more valuable tim=
e on repetition. Or if someone would work on a different track, can not lea=
rn from what were the actual concerns, that he could address right up front=
.. <br></div><div><br></div><div>Ideally some discussion summary would be ac=
cessible right beside the paper in the document store.</div><div><br></div>=
<div>A related problem is that it is nuclear what the status of a proposal =
is. Whether it is just waiting its next iteration or is abandoned. <br></di=
v><div><br></div><div>Some of the impact may be covered by the volume of in=
coming new proposals, but it is still a huge waste. And someone migh find a=
 way to reduce it without much extra effort.<br></div><div><br></div><div>=
=C2=A0</div></div>

<p></p>

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40isocpp.org?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter">https://groups.google.=
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