Topic: Prep for C++ Standards meeting
Author: Robert Ramey <ramey@rrsd.com>
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2018 10:11:05 -0700
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As preparation of for the coming C++ Standards Meeting in San Diego, I
submit the following story by Arthur C. Clark
https://www.baen.com/Chapters/1439133476/1439133476___5.htm
And a beautiful audio version is here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qm1O_MYHGMs
Robert Ramey
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Author: Hyman Rosen <hyman.rosen@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2018 13:41:30 -0400
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On Fri, Nov 2, 2018 at 1:11 PM Robert Ramey <ramey@rrsd.com> wrote:
> As preparation of for the coming C++ Standards Meeting in San Diego, I
> submit the following story by Arthur C. Clark
> https://www.baen.com/Chapters/1439133476/1439133476___5.htm
Is it troubling that I can't figure out which of the two sides represents
C++? :-)
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Fri, Nov 2,=
2018 at 1:11 PM Robert Ramey <<a href=3D"mailto:ramey@rrsd.com">ramey@r=
rsd.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">As preparati=
on of for the coming C++ Standards Meeting in San Diego, I <br>
submit the following story by Arthur C. Clark<br>
<a href=3D"https://www.baen.com/Chapters/1439133476/1439133476___5.htm" rel=
=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.baen.com/Chapters/1439133476/=
1439133476___5.htm</a></blockquote><div><br>Is it troubling that I can'=
t figure out which of the two sides represents C++?=C2=A0 :-)=C2=A0</div></=
div></div>
<p></p>
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mKwq-ZTDr0xOXk7PmrLh6hM%3DXLZ5Jh2r-4ahafZA%40mail.gmail.com</a>.<br />
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.
Author: =?UTF-8?B?R2HFoXBlciBBxb5tYW4=?= <gasper.azman@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2018 20:30:42 +0200
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The lesson I took is that if you don't think of integration as well as the
feature you end up losing the war.
I also think this supports the remember the Fortran paper.
It also supports all committee feedback that says "what is the impact of
this paper on that other paper" and "we can't merge this without
implementation and usage experience".
On Fri, Nov 2, 2018, 17:41 Hyman Rosen <hyman.rosen@gmail.com wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 2, 2018 at 1:11 PM Robert Ramey <ramey@rrsd.com> wrote:
>
>> As preparation of for the coming C++ Standards Meeting in San Diego, I
>> submit the following story by Arthur C. Clark
>> https://www.baen.com/Chapters/1439133476/1439133476___5.htm
>
>
> Is it troubling that I can't figure out which of the two sides represents
> C++? :-)
>
> --
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> <https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/CAHSYqdb%3DuCmKwq-ZTDr0xOXk7PmrLh6hM%3DXLZ5Jh2r-4ahafZA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> .
>
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<div dir=3D"auto">The lesson I took is that if you don't think of integ=
ration as well as the feature you end up losing the war.<div dir=3D"auto"><=
br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I also think this supports the remember the Fort=
ran paper.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">It also suppo=
rts all committee feedback that says "what is the impact of this paper=
on that other paper" and "we can't merge this without implem=
entation and usage experience".</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Fri, Nov 2, 2018, 17:41 Hyman Rosen <<a href=3D"=
mailto:hyman.rosen@gmail.com">hyman.rosen@gmail.com</a> wrote:<br></div><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #=
ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr">On Fri, Nov 2, 2018 at 1:11 PM Robert Ramey <<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:ramey@rrsd.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">ramey@rrsd.com</a=
>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0=
0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">As preparation of for =
the coming C++ Standards Meeting in San Diego, I <br>
submit the following story by Arthur C. Clark<br>
<a href=3D"https://www.baen.com/Chapters/1439133476/1439133476___5.htm" rel=
=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.baen.com/Chapters/=
1439133476/1439133476___5.htm</a></blockquote><div><br>Is it troubling that=
I can't figure out which of the two sides represents C++?=C2=A0 :-)=C2=
=A0</div></div></div>
<p></p>
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-4ahafZA%40mail.gmail.com</a>.<br>
</blockquote></div>
<p></p>
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.
Author: Hyman Rosen <hyman.rosen@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2018 14:44:24 -0400
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On Fri, Nov 2, 2018 at 2:30 PM Ga=C5=A1per A=C5=BEman <gasper.azman@gmail.c=
om> wrote:
> The lesson I took is that if you don't think of integration as well as th=
e
> feature you end up losing the war.
> I also think this supports the remember the Fortran paper.
> It also supports all committee feedback that says "what is the impact of
> this paper on that other paper" and "we can't merge this without
> implementation and usage experience".
>
The lesson I got is that if you take forever to get features in place
because you're
forever polishing and improving them, you're going to lose against
opponents who
are "building feverishly".
--=20
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Fri, Nov 2,=
2018 at 2:30 PM Ga=C5=A1per A=C5=BEman <<a href=3D"mailto:gasper.azman@=
gmail.com">gasper.azman@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">The lesson I took is that if you don't =
think of integration as well as the feature you end up losing the war.<div =
dir=3D"auto">I also think this supports the remember the Fortran paper.</di=
v><div dir=3D"auto">It also supports all committee feedback that says "=
;what is the impact of this paper on that other paper" and "we ca=
n't merge this without implementation and usage experience".</div>=
</div></blockquote><div><br>The lesson I got is that if you take forever to=
get features in place because you're<br>forever polishing and improvin=
g them, you're going to lose against opponents who<br>are "buildin=
g feverishly".<br></div></div></div>
<p></p>
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.
Author: Matthew Woehlke <mwoehlke.floss@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2018 14:56:21 -0400
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On 02/11/2018 14.44, Hyman Rosen wrote:
> The lesson I got is that if you take forever to get features in
> place because you're forever polishing and improving them, you're
> going to lose against opponents who are "building feverishly".
I would have expressed it as 'chasing new (and unproven) features loses
to making incremental improvements on what is existing and tested'.
To give a more concrete example, using that story as a rationale I might
argue that we *should* standardize something like `#pragma once` (an
incremental improvement to "existing technology") and should *not* "get
caught up in" modules (a new, untested thing with tons of bugs to be
worked out).
--
Matthew
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Author: Robert Ramey <ramey@rrsd.com>
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2018 12:10:03 -0700
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On 11/2/18 11:56 AM, Matthew Woehlke wrote:
> On 02/11/2018 14.44, Hyman Rosen wrote:
>> The lesson I got is that if you take forever to get features in
>> place because you're forever polishing and improving them, you're
>> going to lose against opponents who are "building feverishly".
> I would have expressed it as 'chasing new (and unproven) features loses
> to making incremental improvements on what is existing and tested'.
>
> To give a more concrete example, using that story as a rationale I might
> argue that we *should* standardize something like `#pragma once` (an
> incremental improvement to "existing technology") and should *not* "get
> caught up in" modules (a new, untested thing with tons of bugs to be
> worked out).
Thanks for all the feedback. Basically I liked the story and it
reminded me of a number of projects I've been sucked into. It's too
hard to finish, so let's add another feature!
Maybe it's not a perfect analogy, but it reminded me as Bjarne's recent
"Vasa" paper. It seems to me that that paper has disappeared down the
memory hole. That is, everyone remembers it and many likely agree with
it, but no one thinks that it is relevant to them. I guess that's a
common feature of human nature as well.
Robert Ramey
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Author: =?UTF-8?B?R2HFoXBlciBBxb5tYW4=?= <gasper.azman@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2018 19:53:17 +0000
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It reminded me of the "remember the Vasa" paper as well - in fact, I
thought it's a rather better analogy.
The problem with the Vasa analogy is that in some aspects, C++ is rather
like baroque interior design, and there are enhancements waiting to unify
and streamline the language into a more modern, "scandinavian" interior
design.
In other parts we're just missing things to do what we want, more like
punching a door through a wall to get from one side to the other side of a
building that required a long detour before.
Still in others, we're trying to add guardrails.
All those endeavors are *good* - the problem is when we end up with a nice
scandinavian staircase that half-leads to a hole in a wall and half into a
new guardrail because the architects aren't talking to one another. Hence
my "spend more time integrating" comment.
We remember the Vasa. We don't like that it's full of barnacles.
G
On Fri, Nov 2, 2018 at 7:10 PM Robert Ramey <ramey@rrsd.com> wrote:
> On 11/2/18 11:56 AM, Matthew Woehlke wrote:
> > On 02/11/2018 14.44, Hyman Rosen wrote:
> >> The lesson I got is that if you take forever to get features in
> >> place because you're forever polishing and improving them, you're
> >> going to lose against opponents who are "building feverishly".
> > I would have expressed it as 'chasing new (and unproven) features loses
> > to making incremental improvements on what is existing and tested'.
> >
> > To give a more concrete example, using that story as a rationale I might
> > argue that we *should* standardize something like `#pragma once` (an
> > incremental improvement to "existing technology") and should *not* "get
> > caught up in" modules (a new, untested thing with tons of bugs to be
> > worked out).
>
> Thanks for all the feedback. Basically I liked the story and it
> reminded me of a number of projects I've been sucked into. It's too
> hard to finish, so let's add another feature!
>
> Maybe it's not a perfect analogy, but it reminded me as Bjarne's recent
> "Vasa" paper. It seems to me that that paper has disappeared down the
> memory hole. That is, everyone remembers it and many likely agree with
> it, but no one thinks that it is relevant to them. I guess that's a
> common feature of human nature as well.
>
> Robert Ramey
>
>
>
> --
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> .
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr">It reminded me of the "remember the Vasa" paper =
as well - in fact, I thought it's a rather better analogy.<div><br></di=
v><div>The problem with the Vasa analogy is that in some aspects, C++ is ra=
ther like baroque interior design, and there are enhancements waiting to un=
ify and streamline the language into a more modern, "scandinavian"=
; interior design.</div><div><br></div><div>In other parts we're just m=
issing things to do what we want, more like punching a door through a wall =
to get from one side to the other side of a building that required a long d=
etour before.</div><div><br></div><div>Still in others, we're trying to=
add guardrails.</div><div><br></div><div>All those endeavors are *good* - =
the problem is when we end up with a nice scandinavian staircase that half-=
leads to a hole in a wall and half into a new guardrail because the archite=
cts aren't talking to one another. Hence my "spend more time integ=
rating" comment.</div><div><br></div><div>We remember the Vasa. We don=
't like that it's full of barnacles.</div><div><br></div><div>G</di=
v><div><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On F=
ri, Nov 2, 2018 at 7:10 PM Robert Ramey <<a href=3D"mailto:ramey@rrsd.co=
m">ramey@rrsd.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">On=
11/2/18 11:56 AM, Matthew Woehlke wrote:<br>
> On 02/11/2018 14.44, Hyman Rosen wrote:<br>
>> The lesson I got is that if you take forever to get features in<br=
>
>> place because you're forever polishing and improving them, you=
're<br>
>> going to lose against opponents who are "building feverishly&=
quot;.<br>
> I would have expressed it as 'chasing new (and unproven) features =
loses<br>
> to making incremental improvements on what is existing and tested'=
..<br>
> <br>
> To give a more concrete example, using that story as a rationale I mig=
ht<br>
> argue that we *should* standardize something like `#pragma once` (an<b=
r>
> incremental improvement to "existing technology") and should=
*not* "get<br>
> caught up in" modules (a new, untested thing with tons of bugs to=
be<br>
> worked out).<br>
<br>
Thanks for all the feedback.=C2=A0 Basically I liked the story and it <br>
reminded me of a number of projects I've been sucked into.=C2=A0 It'=
;s too <br>
hard to finish, so let's add another feature!<br>
<br>
Maybe it's not a perfect analogy, but it reminded me as Bjarne's re=
cent <br>
"Vasa" paper.=C2=A0 It seems to me that that paper has disappeare=
d down the <br>
memory hole.=C2=A0 That is, everyone remembers it and many likely agree wit=
h <br>
it, but no one thinks that it is relevant to them.=C2=A0 I guess that's=
a <br>
common feature of human nature as well.<br>
<br>
Robert Ramey<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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