Topic: please discontinue the command of the [while]


Author: =?UTF-8?Q?Klaim_=2D_Jo=C3=ABl_Lamotte?= <mjklaim@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 02:27:43 +0100
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My understanding is that the initial point is that a for loop is
finite but a while loop is not, which basically mean you never get the
halting problem with for loops.
That's totally wrong in C++ at least, but that's my understanding.

A. Jo=C3=ABl Lamotte



On Wed, 7 Nov 2018 at 20:22, Vinnie Falco <vinnie.falco@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Wednesday, November 7, 2018 at 5:59:21 AM UTC-8, Bo Persson wrote:
>>
>> So removing the 'while'
>
>
> Taking this to its logical absurd conclusion we could remove the followin=
g:
>
>     break,
>     case
>     continue,
>     else
>     for,
>     switch
>     while
>     ?
>
> And replace them with:
>
>     goto
>
> Regards
>
>
> --
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Author: mutant.sheepdog@gmail.com
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 18:41:20 -0800 (PST)
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I agree that's what they are trying to convey, but it's not a good=20
suggestion.

Plenty of applications (such as games) want to run in an infinite loop=20
until an explicit break condition (such as pressing the quit button) is met=
..
Other applications (such as computers on rockets) never want to exit, they=
=20
aim to run forever.

Trying to remove infinite loops from c++ in order to be able to prove a=20
program can complete means these things can't be written in c++.

If OP works in a domain where proving these things is important, then c++=
=20
might not be the language for them.

On Thursday, 8 November 2018 12:28:22 UTC+11, Klaim - Jo=C3=ABl Lamotte wro=
te:
>
> My understanding is that the initial point is that a for loop is=20
> finite but a while loop is not, which basically mean you never get the=20
> halting problem with for loops.=20
> That's totally wrong in C++ at least, but that's my understanding.=20
>
> A. Jo=C3=ABl Lamotte=20
>
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>I agree that&#39;s what they are trying to convey, bu=
t it&#39;s not a good suggestion.</div><div><br></div><div>Plenty of applic=
ations (such as games) want to run in an infinite loop until an explicit br=
eak condition (such as pressing the quit button) is met.</div><div>Other ap=
plications (such as computers on rockets) never want to exit, they aim to r=
un forever.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Trying to remove infinite loops fr=
om c++ in order to be able to prove a program can complete means these thin=
gs can&#39;t be written in c++.</div><div><br></div><div>If OP works in a d=
omain where proving these things is important, then c++ might not be the la=
nguage for them.<br></div><div><br></div>On Thursday, 8 November 2018 12:28=
:22 UTC+11, Klaim - Jo=C3=ABl Lamotte  wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;paddi=
ng-left: 1ex;">My understanding is that the initial point is that a for loo=
p is
<br>finite but a while loop is not, which basically mean you never get the
<br>halting problem with for loops.
<br>That&#39;s totally wrong in C++ at least, but that&#39;s my understandi=
ng.
<br>
<br>A. Jo=C3=ABl Lamotte
<br>
<br>
<br></blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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.


Author: Vinnie Falco <vinnie.falco@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 18:56:43 -0800
Raw View
On Wed, Nov 7, 2018 at 6:41 PM <mutant.sheepdog@gmail.com> wrote:
> Trying to remove infinite loops from c++ in order to be able to prove a program
> can complete means these things can't be written in c++.

This is a non-turing-complete language for which the halting problem
is solvable:

"Simplicity: A New Language for Blockchains"
Simplicity is a typed, combinator-based, functional language without
loops and recursion, designed to be used for crypto-currencies and
blockchain applications.
<https://blockstream.com/simplicity.pdf>

Regards

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.


Author: Richard Hodges <hodges.r@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 03:43:48 +0000
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On Wed, 7 Nov 2018 at 19:22, Vinnie Falco <vinnie.falco@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> On Wednesday, November 7, 2018 at 5:59:21 AM UTC-8, Bo Persson wrote:
>>
>> So removing the 'while'
>
>
> Taking this to its logical absurd conclusion we could remove the following:
>
>     break,
>     case
>     continue,
>     else
>     for,
>     switch
>     while
>     ?
>
> And replace them with:
>
>     goto
>

For further improvements in coding efficiency, we could go further:

add these:
- blt - branch if less than zero
- bgt - branch if greater than zero
- bz - branch if zero
- b - branch always

remove these:
- if
- goto



>
> Regards
>
>
> --
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> .
>


--
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Wed=
, 7 Nov 2018 at 19:22, Vinnie Falco &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:vinnie.falco@gmai=
l.com">vinnie.falco@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-=
left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br>On Wednesday, November 7, 2018 at 5:59:21 AM=
 UTC-8, Bo Persson wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">So removin=
g the &#39;while&#39;</blockquote><div><br>Taking this to its logical absur=
d conclusion we could remove the following:</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 break,</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 case</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 continu=
e,</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 else</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 for,</div><div>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 switch<br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 while</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 ?<br></div><div><br></div><div>And replace them with:<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 goto</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>For further improvements =
in coding efficiency, we could go further:=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>a=
dd these:</div><div>- blt - branch if less than zero</div><div>- bgt - bran=
ch if greater than zero<br>- bz - branch if zero<br class=3D"gmail-Apple-in=
terchange-newline"></div><div>- b - branch always<br class=3D"gmail-Apple-i=
nterchange-newline"></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><br></div>remove these=
:</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">- if</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">- go=
to</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><br class=3D"gmail-Apple-interchange-new=
line"><div>=C2=A0<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">=
<div><br></div><div>Regards<br><br></div><div><br></div></div>

<p></p>

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</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"=
 class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"l=
tr">Richard Hodges<div><a href=3D"mailto:hodges.r@gmail.com" target=3D"_bla=
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+376841522</div><div>mobile:=C2=A0+376380212 (this will be *expensive* outs=
ide Andorra!)</div><div>skype: madmongo</div><div>facebook: hodges.r</div><=
div><br></div></div></div></div>

<p></p>

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Author: FrankHB1989 <frankhb1989@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 21:17:28 -0800 (PST)
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=E5=9C=A8 2018=E5=B9=B411=E6=9C=888=E6=97=A5=E6=98=9F=E6=9C=9F=E5=9B=9B UTC=
+8=E4=B8=8A=E5=8D=8810:56:55=EF=BC=8CVinnie Falco=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=
=9A
>
> On Wed, Nov 7, 2018 at 6:41 PM <mutant....@gmail.com <javascript:>>=20
> wrote:=20
> > Trying to remove infinite loops from c++ in order to be able to prove a=
=20
> program=20
> > can complete means these things can't be written in c++.=20
>
> This is a non-turing-complete language for which the halting problem=20
> is solvable:=20
>
> "Simplicity: A New Language for Blockchains"=20
> Simplicity is a typed, combinator-based, functional language without=20
> loops and recursion, designed to be used for crypto-currencies and=20
> blockchain applications.=20
> <https://blockstream.com/simplicity.pdf>=20
>
> Regards=20
>

This might be interesting (esp. the formal methods and the part of TCO to=
=20
me, compared to the disability of EVM), but does it target the domains=20
sufficiently close to C++ concerned here?

In fact, every language with proved strong normalization in rewriting=20
semantics is non-Turing-complete like this. And this is far from C++, even=
=20
far than well-reserarched STLC=20
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simply_typed_lambda_calculus>, which is=20
enough to show the property.

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><br>=E5=9C=A8 2018=E5=B9=B411=E6=9C=888=E6=97=A5=E6=98=
=9F=E6=9C=9F=E5=9B=9B UTC+8=E4=B8=8A=E5=8D=8810:56:55=EF=BC=8CVinnie Falco=
=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">On =
Wed, Nov 7, 2018 at 6:41 PM &lt;<a href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blank" g=
df-obfuscated-mailto=3D"4pNATMdWBAAJ" rel=3D"nofollow" onmousedown=3D"this.=
href=3D&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;java=
script:&#39;;return true;">mutant....@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:
<br>&gt; Trying to remove infinite loops from c++ in order to be able to pr=
ove a program
<br>&gt; can complete means these things can&#39;t be written in c++.
<br>
<br>This is a non-turing-complete language for which the halting problem
<br>is solvable:
<br>
<br>&quot;Simplicity: A New Language for Blockchains&quot;
<br>Simplicity is a typed, combinator-based, functional language without
<br>loops and recursion, designed to be used for crypto-currencies and
<br>blockchain applications.
<br>&lt;<a href=3D"https://blockstream.com/simplicity.pdf" target=3D"_blank=
" rel=3D"nofollow" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://www.google.com/u=
rl?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fblockstream.com%2Fsimplicity.pdf\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x=
3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNE-GXGMFlRXtBd3Sd-oz9q22SmSZg&#39;;return true;" onclick=
=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fblockstr=
eam.com%2Fsimplicity.pdf\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNE-GXGMFlRX=
tBd3Sd-oz9q22SmSZg&#39;;return true;">https://blockstream.com/<wbr>simplici=
ty.pdf</a>&gt;
<br>
<br>Regards
<br></blockquote><div><br>This might be interesting (esp. the formal method=
s and the part of TCO to me, compared to the disability of EVM), but does i=
t target the domains sufficiently close to C++ concerned here?<br><br>In fa=
ct, every language with proved strong normalization in rewriting semantics =
is non-Turing-complete like this. And this is far from C++, even far than w=
ell-reserarched <a href=3D"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simply_typed_lambd=
a_calculus">STLC</a>, which is enough to show the property.<br><br></div></=
div>

<p></p>

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Author: Vinnie Falco <vinnie.falco@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 23:20:50 -0800
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> This might be interesting (esp. the formal methods and the part of TCO to
> me, compared to the disability of EVM), but does it target the domains
> sufficiently close to C++ concerned here?
>

Good question. I linked this particular paper because I am a fan of the
work of the bitcoin core developers. The paper has some very nice novel
ideas. It would be nice if one of them would give a talk at Cppcon on C++
techniques in decentralized systems, the C++ Alliance might help sponsor
the talk (http://cpp.al)

Thanks
--
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<div><br></div><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1e=
x"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>This might be interesting (esp. the formal methods=
 and the part of TCO to me, compared to the disability of EVM), but does it=
 target the domains sufficiently close to C++ concerned here?</div></div></=
blockquote><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Good question. I l=
inked this particular paper because I am a fan of the work of the bitcoin c=
ore developers. The paper has some very nice novel ideas. It would be nice =
if one of them would give a talk at Cppcon on C++ techniques in decentraliz=
ed systems, the C++ Alliance might help sponsor the talk (<a href=3D"http:/=
/cpp.al">http://cpp.al</a>)</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"au=
to">Thanks</div></div></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signatur=
e" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Follow me on GitHub: <a href=3D"https=
://github.com/vinniefalco" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/vinniefalco=
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Author: yakitori1010@gmail.com
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2018 02:37:15 -0800 (PST)
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yes. you good.

thank you for your opnion.


2018=E5=B9=B411=E6=9C=888=E6=97=A5=E6=9C=A8=E6=9B=9C=E6=97=A5 11=E6=99=8241=
=E5=88=8620=E7=A7=92 UTC+9 mutant....@gmail.com:
>
> I agree that's what they are trying to convey, but it's not a good=20
> suggestion.
>
> Plenty of applications (such as games) want to run in an infinite loop=20
> until an explicit break condition (such as pressing the quit button) is m=
et.
> Other applications (such as computers on rockets) never want to exit, the=
y=20
> aim to run forever.
>
> Trying to remove infinite loops from c++ in order to be able to prove a=
=20
> program can complete means these things can't be written in c++.
>
> If OP works in a domain where proving these things is important, then c++=
=20
> might not be the language for them.
>
> On Thursday, 8 November 2018 12:28:22 UTC+11, Klaim - Jo=C3=ABl Lamotte w=
rote:
>>
>> My understanding is that the initial point is that a for loop is=20
>> finite but a while loop is not, which basically mean you never get the=
=20
>> halting problem with for loops.=20
>> That's totally wrong in C++ at least, but that's my understanding.=20
>>
>> A. Jo=C3=ABl Lamotte=20
>>
>>
>>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>yes. you good.</div><div><br></div><div>thank you for=
 your opnion.</div><div><br></div><br>2018=E5=B9=B411=E6=9C=888=E6=97=A5=E6=
=9C=A8=E6=9B=9C=E6=97=A5 11=E6=99=8241=E5=88=8620=E7=A7=92 UTC+9 mutant....=
@gmail.com:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left=
: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><d=
iv>I agree that&#39;s what they are trying to convey, but it&#39;s not a go=
od suggestion.</div><div><br></div><div>Plenty of applications (such as gam=
es) want to run in an infinite loop until an explicit break condition (such=
 as pressing the quit button) is met.</div><div>Other applications (such as=
 computers on rockets) never want to exit, they aim to run forever.<br></di=
v><div><br></div><div>Trying to remove infinite loops from c++ in order to =
be able to prove a program can complete means these things can&#39;t be wri=
tten in c++.</div><div><br></div><div>If OP works in a domain where proving=
 these things is important, then c++ might not be the language for them.<br=
></div><div><br></div>On Thursday, 8 November 2018 12:28:22 UTC+11, Klaim -=
 Jo=C3=ABl Lamotte  wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">My unders=
tanding is that the initial point is that a for loop is
<br>finite but a while loop is not, which basically mean you never get the
<br>halting problem with for loops.
<br>That&#39;s totally wrong in C++ at least, but that&#39;s my understandi=
ng.
<br>
<br>A. Jo=C3=ABl Lamotte
<br>
<br>
<br></blockquote></div></blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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Author: yakitori1010@gmail.com
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2018 02:45:39 -0800 (PST)
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maybe you use the [for] timing to think the halting.
it is 0 or 1 problem.


2018=E5=B9=B411=E6=9C=888=E6=97=A5=E6=9C=A8=E6=9B=9C=E6=97=A5 10=E6=99=8228=
=E5=88=8622=E7=A7=92 UTC+9 Klaim - Jo=C3=ABl Lamotte:
>
> My understanding is that the initial point is that a for loop is=20
> finite but a while loop is not, which basically mean you never get the=20
> halting problem with for loops.=20
> That's totally wrong in C++ at least, but that's my understanding.=20
>
> A. Jo=C3=ABl Lamotte=20
>
>
>
> On Wed, 7 Nov 2018 at 20:22, Vinnie Falco <vinnie...@gmail.com=20
> <javascript:>> wrote:=20
> >=20
> >=20
> > On Wednesday, November 7, 2018 at 5:59:21 AM UTC-8, Bo Persson wrote:=
=20
> >>=20
> >> So removing the 'while'=20
> >=20
> >=20
> > Taking this to its logical absurd conclusion we could remove the=20
> following:=20
> >=20
> >     break,=20
> >     case=20
> >     continue,=20
> >     else=20
> >     for,=20
> >     switch=20
> >     while=20
> >     ?=20
> >=20
> > And replace them with:=20
> >=20
> >     goto=20
> >=20
> > Regards=20
> >=20
> >=20
> > --=20
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google=20
> Groups "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.=20
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send=
=20
> an email to std-proposal...@isocpp.org <javascript:>.=20
> > To post to this group, send email to std-pr...@isocpp.org <javascript:>=
..=20
>
> > To view this discussion on the web visit=20
> https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/0c89963c-d5e=
4-49f2-a460-fb987ec5a50a%40isocpp.org.=20
>
>

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g.

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>maybe you use the [for] timing to think the halting.<=
/div><div>it is 0 or 1 problem.</div><div><br></div><br>2018=E5=B9=B411=E6=
=9C=888=E6=97=A5=E6=9C=A8=E6=9B=9C=E6=97=A5 10=E6=99=8228=E5=88=8622=E7=A7=
=92 UTC+9 Klaim - Jo=C3=ABl Lamotte:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: =
1ex;">My understanding is that the initial point is that a for loop is
<br>finite but a while loop is not, which basically mean you never get the
<br>halting problem with for loops.
<br>That&#39;s totally wrong in C++ at least, but that&#39;s my understandi=
ng.
<br>
<br>A. Jo=C3=ABl Lamotte
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>On Wed, 7 Nov 2018 at 20:22, Vinnie Falco &lt;<a onmousedown=3D"this.hr=
ef=3D&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;javasc=
ript:&#39;;return true;" href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofo=
llow" gdf-obfuscated-mailto=3D"3QejVvJRBAAJ">vinnie...@gmail.com</a>&gt; wr=
ote:
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; On Wednesday, November 7, 2018 at 5:59:21 AM UTC-8, Bo Persson wro=
te:
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt; So removing the &#39;while&#39;
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; Taking this to its logical absurd conclusion we could remove the f=
ollowing:
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 break,
<br>&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 case
<br>&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 continue,
<br>&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 else
<br>&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 for,
<br>&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 switch
<br>&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 while
<br>&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ?
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; And replace them with:
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 goto
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; Regards
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; --
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<br></blockquote></div>

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